I see that Journal remains in core as of Moodle 1.9. I would *really* like to take it out and relegate it to contrib. This would involve a rerun of the upgrade script from some time ago that turned any remaining ones into Online Assignments.
My motivation is to get rid of the last few kicking about in my jurisdiction but I can't help thinking it's a sensible idea anyway.
I'm happy to make this happen - any objections?
It would be nice to first make a Journal assignment type that replicates the features of Journal (main one being multiple day entries) that are not really provided by online assignement (despite official claims to the contrary).
well let's get it fixed then. Can you give me the details (preferably via the tracker) and I will take a look.
In my ignorance I thought that online assignments did everything Journal did and more.
Of course, Journal is not actively developed so there is no roles support for example.
In my ignorance I thought that online assignments did everything Journal did and more.
Of course, Journal is not actively developed so there is no roles support for example.
I think It would set a horrible precedent and destroy people's confidence in anything called "core" unless there is a satisfactory replacement, as Michael suggested.
If Journal were simply removed, I would worry even more than I do now about the future of Workshop.
If Journal were simply removed, I would worry even more than I do now about the future of Workshop.
The decision has been made that it is going, but to remove in 1.9 is too short notice IMO. This needs a whole version notice period e.g. removed from v2.0.
Michael is there a feature request for the missing feature that you could direct is to for voting?
Michael is there a feature request for the missing feature that you could direct is to for voting?
It must have been going for about 4 major versions now? Which is a bit silly. But yes, I take your point - 2.0?
Indeed but a line has not been drawn in the sand. It will need to be or it will hang on for ever.
I had a quick look at Journal after posting (for the features which are not in online text assignment as I couldn't recall any significant differences). What a trip down memory lane!
Edit: Saw you subsequent post. Yes, if it has stuff missing let's get it flagged up in the tracker.
I had a quick look at Journal after posting (for the features which are not in online text assignment as I couldn't recall any significant differences). What a trip down memory lane!
Edit: Saw you subsequent post. Yes, if it has stuff missing let's get it flagged up in the tracker.
Did you find any?
Nope. I waited until today in case I was missing the feature mentioned by Michael above.
Dropping it in 1.9 seems really early to me. I'm not going to disagree with removing it, but we have almost 500 journals on our site right now. If Journal did go away we'd need a really good replacement.
Again, I'm quite surprised that Online Assignments don't seem to cut it for many people - can anybody tell me what the problems are. Can online assignments be fixed or is there a fundamental disconnect here?
Hello Howard,
I think the issue is not so much the functionality, but less tangible things like the feel of the tool. The journal is really simple to set up and to use and teachers are used to it. Also, the online assignment is listed as an assignment which creates a different mindset in students than a learning diary.
It is comparable to the difficulty we have had convincing/forcing teachers to give up the Returnfolder module (a very simple third party file upload tool) and use the Database module instead. The database may represent the same functionality and more, but it is therefore a lot more complex to set up. It was only with the preset option that the database could satisfactorily replace the Returnfolder (although I still have problems creating a preset that works).
Rgrds,
Paul.
I think the issue is not so much the functionality, but less tangible things like the feel of the tool. The journal is really simple to set up and to use and teachers are used to it. Also, the online assignment is listed as an assignment which creates a different mindset in students than a learning diary.
It is comparable to the difficulty we have had convincing/forcing teachers to give up the Returnfolder module (a very simple third party file upload tool) and use the Database module instead. The database may represent the same functionality and more, but it is therefore a lot more complex to set up. It was only with the preset option that the database could satisfactorily replace the Returnfolder (although I still have problems creating a preset that works).
Rgrds,
Paul.
Totally agree Paul. The key issue is the perception from the learners perspective. I have used journals in several courses and learners like to use them to register their reflections on specific learning. They find them particularly helpful in preparing for assignments. If you call them Online Assignments, then students automatically assume assessment and a grade, which is not supposed to be the case.
If it is decided to "can" the journal, then a replacement tool will be needed, as well as a conversion app so that previous courses don't have to be re-designed, which would be a huge hassle.
Cheers.
If it is decided to "can" the journal, then a replacement tool will be needed, as well as a conversion app so that previous courses don't have to be re-designed, which would be a huge hassle.
Cheers.
Couldn't we renew Journal in a brand new concept that could be something between an assignment and a timestamped blog.
When 9 came to Moodle four years ago, I found the idea of collecting a student input that could be completed from time to time was a nice feature. Wiki overfills that simple object, and online assignment underfills it also, as it should be written when (or little before) submitting.
We have no real information peace that could record exactly what a "journal" is, in its sociology meaning (field journal) or scientific world : lab journal. (just as a "log").
If it is dropped back to third party, I could apply to propose such a renewal.
Cheers.
I think perhaps I should add a little background.
We too have a load of Journals and we find them very useful. However, I have never heard anybody complain about using Online Assignments instead. The issue that Journals where going to disappear one day has always been a low level hassle.
I suppose I want to give the matter a prod and sort it out for once and for all. Please - not another Dialogue Module
We too have a load of Journals and we find them very useful. However, I have never heard anybody complain about using Online Assignments instead. The issue that Journals where going to disappear one day has always been a low level hassle.
I suppose I want to give the matter a prod and sort it out for once and for all. Please - not another Dialogue Module
Please don't get rid of the Journal. At my school, we universally prefer it to the inline assignment. Teachers are thrilled to discontinue lugging their students paper journals around to read and respond to them. They like being able to respond to several journal entries from a single screen and to follow the developing flow of an individual student's thoughts.
I'm sure I must be missing something wonderful about the inline writing assignment, but I don't understand how it is meant to replace the journal. Has anyone done a side by side comparison?
I'm sure I must be missing something wonderful about the inline writing assignment, but I don't understand how it is meant to replace the journal. Has anyone done a side by side comparison?
Lisa,
Thanks for your comments. However, could you tell me specifically what it is about the online assignment that you don't like and/or what it is about the Journal that you prefer?
I'd really appreciate it if somebody who is attached to Journal can spell out the issues then we can look at them objectively.
Thanks for your comments. However, could you tell me specifically what it is about the online assignment that you don't like and/or what it is about the Journal that you prefer?
I'd really appreciate it if somebody who is attached to Journal can spell out the issues then we can look at them objectively.
I may not not have tested the online assignment as well as I should have, but I was not able to see how it could be used, as the journal can, to allow for an ongoing dialog between the teacher and student on a specific idea.
I would love to find that the online assignment can behave just like the journal. But if that's the case, I'd still be left wondering why change the name? A paper journal allows for an ongoing and developing dialog between a teacher and a student. Moodle's journal module does the same. This is a fine thing. What's gained by confusing nomenclature?
I would love to find that the online assignment can behave just like the journal. But if that's the case, I'd still be left wondering why change the name? A paper journal allows for an ongoing and developing dialog between a teacher and a student. Moodle's journal module does the same. This is a fine thing. What's gained by confusing nomenclature?
could you tell me specifically what it is about the online assignment that you don't like and/or what it is about the Journal that you prefer?
See this discussion.
See this discussion.
Note to all...
There seems to be an underlying thread that Journal does stuff that "Online Text Assignments" do not.
Are we all talking about the same thing? Because, I really don't understand. I can't see anything in the Assignment that isn't in Journal PLUS the Assignment has loads more features if you need them, handles long lists of submissions much more nicely, understands roles, and isn't full of bugs.
If I'm not seeing something obvious can somebody *please* explain?
There seems to be an underlying thread that Journal does stuff that "Online Text Assignments" do not.
Are we all talking about the same thing? Because, I really don't understand. I can't see anything in the Assignment that isn't in Journal PLUS the Assignment has loads more features if you need them, handles long lists of submissions much more nicely, understands roles, and isn't full of bugs.
If I'm not seeing something obvious can somebody *please* explain?
Journal is a core component that many use regularly, feel comfortable with and that through its name is non threatening to many students. Its name also underpins what many of us encourage our students to maintain - and that is not only in an electronic form, but also paperbased. The realtionships need to reamin if we are to continue sound pedagogy.
What would happen Howard if it were announced that the US $ was going to be repalced with the Euro as the currency of choice for the US in competing in the world marketplace? Would you accept that change willingly?
Like the US $, the Journal is a core component in Moodle and it is up to Martin and the crew to ensure that core components are maintained. If there is a sound fundamental reason why it should be removed, then fine, but the resons have to be sound, valid and supported by the majority of Moodle users.
All core components of Moodle should be the responsibility of Moodle.org to maintain, as I belive core components form the foundation of Moodle.
Do we discard the US $ in world currency as it slips futrther away from being the benchmark currency? I think not - neither should we discard the Journal in Moodle, because some people desire the online assignment - no matter what you call, an assignment is threatening to any student, it does not encourage reflection like a Journal does.
Anyone like to add further comment
Cj
Technically speaking Journal is not in Moodle core for a long time and moodle.org does not maintain anything, real people do that.
The question now is: who is going to maintain the Journal module? If nobody volunteers now and shows a real commitment we should IMO not wait any longer and remove it from main cvs.
My personal opinion is that we should keep Journal and replace $ with €
Petr
The question now is: who is going to maintain the Journal module? If nobody volunteers now and shows a real commitment we should IMO not wait any longer and remove it from main cvs.
My personal opinion is that we should keep Journal and replace $ with €
Petr
I'm certainly not maintaining it (well, I know you weren't asking but you see what I mean). I have certainly come across the "I don't like the name Assignment" problem before and simply changed the name in a custom language pack. A lot easier than somebody maintaining a module that is 98% the same as another (which, remember, was *intended* to replace it).
I hereby give up.... one for the man with the beard I think
Oh.... and can we have Dialogue back please
I hereby give up.... one for the man with the beard I think
Oh.... and can we have Dialogue back please
You know I'm British yes? Clearly the dollar (and the pound) should be replaced by the Euro!
So the underlying problem is actually what it is *called* not what its *functionality* is?
So the underlying problem is actually what it is *called* not what its *functionality* is?
I wonder whether a big part of the issue, Howard, is not the perception thingy. While technically they can be on par, a journal is a journal and assignment is an assignment. Also, a multi-purpose multi-feature module as the assignment become, is inherently more confusing in terms of setting it up correctly, at least to some teachers. Not to mention that using assignment as a journal activity is not clearly identifiable by having its own unique icon in the course view, requiring more cognitive effort to find it. I know this sounds silly but still affects usability. While there are benefits of combining certain functionality into a single module, there is something to be said for keeping certain functionality separate even if there is some overlap.
I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head Robert!
I completely agree with Robert. We moved our Journals to Online assignments in those days when Journal was abandoned, so we don't have them any more. Since then, hardly anyone uses an Online assignment as a Journal - teachers use the wiki for that, which I think is less suitable.
I understand Petr's concern about the maintaining of the code, but people don't find the way. In one go, I throw in the discussion that I hope the glossary won't be replaced by the database for the same reason.
I understand Petr's concern about the maintaining of the code, but people don't find the way. In one go, I throw in the discussion that I hope the glossary won't be replaced by the database for the same reason.
I think we can separate out two separate questions:
1. Should there be separate code for the journal module and assignment module, that has to be maintained separately? The developers answer No, with sound reasons.
2. In the user interface, should a learning Journal appear as just another type of assignment. The teachers answer No, with sound reasons.
However, these two answers are not necessarily incompatible. We developers just need to find a way to clean up the code behind the scenes, while giving teachers a Journal with the features they want.
1. Should there be separate code for the journal module and assignment module, that has to be maintained separately? The developers answer No, with sound reasons.
2. In the user interface, should a learning Journal appear as just another type of assignment. The teachers answer No, with sound reasons.
However, these two answers are not necessarily incompatible. We developers just need to find a way to clean up the code behind the scenes, while giving teachers a Journal with the features they want.
I wonder if this could be dealt with (relatively) simply by having a Journal (by which I mean Online Text Assignment) block. This could display the current state of a student's various musings in the course in the way that was available with the original Journal.
The remainder of the problem seems simply to be the implications of it being an "assignment", I do understand that, but you have free reign as to what you call your activity and you can always fiddle with the language pack.
The remainder of the problem seems simply to be the implications of it being an "assignment", I do understand that, but you have free reign as to what you call your activity and you can always fiddle with the language pack.
Unfortunately, language and names do play a large role in our understanding of what does what. By calling a Journal "Assignment", it suddenly loses the functionality (psychologically) of journaling and becomes mere work.
We must really stop thinking from a developer point of view and really look at things from the end-user's point of view - after all, we can have all the functionality in the world, with really cool code, but if people don't want to use it (for whatever reason) - it won't get used.
Why do we have to do away with it at all? Is there a sound reason (other than it is not being maintained - which is a big problem, I guess) or is it just not cool anymore?
Just my 2c worth.
We must really stop thinking from a developer point of view and really look at things from the end-user's point of view - after all, we can have all the functionality in the world, with really cool code, but if people don't want to use it (for whatever reason) - it won't get used.
Why do we have to do away with it at all? Is there a sound reason (other than it is not being maintained - which is a big problem, I guess) or is it just not cool anymore?
Just my 2c worth.
Richard, I agree with you. My 3rd, 4th, and 5th grade students use the Journal as an online diary. Changing the name to "assignment" will, I fear, intimidate many of them and use will decline. Journals are optional in my course and presently I have 60+ students with journals. Some use the journal daily, some weekly, and some whenever the mood strikes. The students like thinking of their journal as a diary and enjoy receiving my feedback.
From my non-developer/teacher's perspective...PLEASE keep something that resembles the Journal (even if you disguise the Online Text Assignment as a Journal block--great suggestion!).
Tim Hunt wrote and I agree:
However, these two answers are not necessarily incompatible. We developers just need to find a way to clean up the code behind the scenes, while giving teachers a Journal with the features they want.
It is an exciting challenge to work with teachers who are using Moodle with students. The more intuitive set-up is for the them, the more these great features will be used. Journal and Assignment have different meanings to teachers. As do ReturnSomething-or-other and Database (obviously will have to do more self-study to learn about these). In other words, anything you can do to lower barriers to entry for teachers, the better. Thanks!
I wonder whether we could have a child-parent concept for modules as it is with themes or languages. There are groups of modules that share quite a bit of functionality.
The only real difference is simply that if you go "up" on level to the index page for Journals then you can see all your own journal entries (and grader replies) shown on one page.
With all due respect, and a very great deal is due, that's a big difference.
I know, it was a feature I used to use a lot in the first Moodle course. I always intended to add it to the online assignment feature but it never got there somehow.
I'm still not sure how the interface should work. If someone works that out it would be trivial to add, I'm sure.
I'm still not sure how the interface should work. If someone works that out it would be trivial to add, I'm sure.
....that's this week's job sorted then
Thinking some....
What about adding a new method to the assigment_bass class to give the particular assignment type to give a course wide report when "Assignment" is clicked in the Activities block. This would be checked for in mod/assignment/index.php and the output displayed (I'm not sure if it should just do it, or provide a link for each type wanting to do this)
In the case of the Online Text type, it would do much the same as Journal did when clicked in the Activity block.
What about adding a new method to the assigment_bass class to give the particular assignment type to give a course wide report when "Assignment" is clicked in the Activities block. This would be checked for in mod/assignment/index.php and the output displayed (I'm not sure if it should just do it, or provide a link for each type wanting to do this)
In the case of the Online Text type, it would do much the same as Journal did when clicked in the Activity block.
Isn't the Blog module (with comment functionality added) a more natural heir to the Journal module than the Assignment Module?
I'm going to say no... Blogs are very much attached to a user as opposed to being an activity in a course. This is much the same argument as Dialogue (which was a course activity) compared to Messaging (which isn't).
I don't thinks so as Blogs are not necessarily course specific.
I'd like to endorse Josep's post about Blog being a possible successor to Journal. The ability to comment & rate other users' blog entries (as per forum & glossary) will no doubt improve this module. Good things take time!
IMO, blog is a solid all-rounder in terms promoting meaningful communication & collaboration in various contexts > globally, site-wide, within a course, group or even drafted to oneself! From 1.9+, blog hooks nicely into tags, too!
Journal is a neat activity & i can see its value for educators wanting their students to document learning in a course context. I understand why people suggest that Journal could become another assignment type (like online text). Is this desirable, feasible?
If Journal requires continued maintenance & there aren't developers prepared to maintain it, realistically it shouldn't be part of core beyond 1.9.
Just my 2CW
IMO, blog is a solid all-rounder in terms promoting meaningful communication & collaboration in various contexts > globally, site-wide, within a course, group or even drafted to oneself! From 1.9+, blog hooks nicely into tags, too!
Journal is a neat activity & i can see its value for educators wanting their students to document learning in a course context. I understand why people suggest that Journal could become another assignment type (like online text). Is this desirable, feasible?
If Journal requires continued maintenance & there aren't developers prepared to maintain it, realistically it shouldn't be part of core beyond 1.9.
Just my 2CW
Online Assignment *is* the replacement for Journal.
History lesson: when Online text assignments came out all Journals where upgraded to assignments and Journal hidden. However (for reasons I don't recall) Journal was left in core hidden by default.
Of course, it won't go any further than contrib so it can be readily put back. It's unmaintained anyway.
History lesson: when Online text assignments came out all Journals where upgraded to assignments and Journal hidden. However (for reasons I don't recall) Journal was left in core hidden by default.
Of course, it won't go any further than contrib so it can be readily put back. It's unmaintained anyway.
I've got a grand total of 20 Journal entries on all our Moodle installs and I'm seriously thinking about taking these out an replacing them with Online Assignments.
The only difference I really see is in the size of the feedback box.
To me, you get the same thing as a Journal if you don't put an end date and you allow a student to edit their submission - but guess what, in both Journal and in an online assignment set up this way, a student can change what they said after they've gotten a grade!
I guess the whole reason I ever implemented Journals after they were phased out was because I had an instructor ask what happened to them, and I saw that it was still available. With a small amount of research, it sounded like they were a little different. But looking at it now, they are not.
Here's the difference I would make if I could - make a Journal assignment type that will allow multiple submissions - but instead of allowing the student to overwrite what they've previously entered, they get a new form and the teacher gets a new grade and feedback form.
Oh, wait! That sounds like something we could do in a forum with a few changes in the roles....
Sigh.
Thanks,
Matt
The only difference I really see is in the size of the feedback box.
To me, you get the same thing as a Journal if you don't put an end date and you allow a student to edit their submission - but guess what, in both Journal and in an online assignment set up this way, a student can change what they said after they've gotten a grade!
I guess the whole reason I ever implemented Journals after they were phased out was because I had an instructor ask what happened to them, and I saw that it was still available. With a small amount of research, it sounded like they were a little different. But looking at it now, they are not.
Here's the difference I would make if I could - make a Journal assignment type that will allow multiple submissions - but instead of allowing the student to overwrite what they've previously entered, they get a new form and the teacher gets a new grade and feedback form.
Oh, wait! That sounds like something we could do in a forum with a few changes in the roles....
Sigh.
Thanks,
Matt
If nobody wants to be the maintainer of journal, that will spell it death no matter what and this discussion is moot. A more general issue is where the magic line between consolidating activities to simplify coding and keeping them separately to simplify (actually enhance) usability is. Putting various types of assignments under a single umbrella makes sense. If a journal is considered a type of assigment, it should belong there as well. But if it is considered (by teachers and students not programmers) a different type of activity, then possibly should be kept separate. At least in Moodle interface. As someone suggested, may be the way to compromise those somewhat conflicting desires, I mean the opposing needs of users and programmers, is to have activity-specific libraries with different front-ends (Moodle modules) for different activities or groups of activities.
I have kept out of this discussion because I'm not very familiar with Journal. But I have been watching the discussion, and I'm amazed at how little attention has been given to what Robert calls "usability" and I would call Use cases. Whether
or in general
or not shouldn't be a matter of developer or user opinion. It is demonstrably true or false. Just list the use cases of Journal and map them onto the proposed replacement. If the equality holds, document the mapped cases for users (so they can cope with the replacement) and kill Journal.
Journal = Online Assignment
or in general
Journal = proposed replacement
or not shouldn't be a matter of developer or user opinion. It is demonstrably true or false. Just list the use cases of Journal and map them onto the proposed replacement. If the equality holds, document the mapped cases for users (so they can cope with the replacement) and kill Journal.
That could work. Or possibly we just add a link on each entry of "Online Assignment" itself to 'Show all online assignments on one page" , which links to mod/assignment/type/online/all.php ?
It's funny seeing all this retro-support for Journal. All I remember is people being confused by it and others wanting all the nice grading features that Online Assignment now has.
It's funny seeing all this retro-support for Journal. All I remember is people being confused by it and others wanting all the nice grading features that Online Assignment now has.
...or both? I'll see if I can get something together in HEAD for this. Next week probably.
Yess... at least it's not like "Aiken format", when I said "let's take it out because nobody uses it" and nobody said a thing.... until I took it out
Yess... at least it's not like "Aiken format", when I said "let's take it out because nobody uses it" and nobody said a thing.... until I took it out
Hi Martin, great idea! A feature that would show the student a page with all of their online assignments (and the feedback from the teacher) would be a wonderful addition to the assignment! This would really facilitate the student seeing their growth through the course by looking at the progression and construction of their knowledge in these online assignments.
Regardless of how the journal discussion progresses, could this feature be added to the online assignment?
Yeh - I've got some time next week, so I'm on to it.
And how did that go, Howard?
It didn't. I blame something called Turnitin for many days of my life that I won't ever get back 
It's still right at the top of my todo list, but I won't get back around to it for a week or so.
It's still right at the top of my todo list, but I won't get back around to it for a week or so.
Despite a lot of searching I didn't find a tracker issue for this, so I filed one: MDL-14045.
Good point - thanks for that.
Sorry that I have dropped out of this discussion for a while.
Having just spend a year incrementally introducing Moodle at a K-12 girls' school, and the previous week doing virtually nothing else besides Moodle training for faculty so that they might work on their classes in Moodle during the summer break, I am pressed to bring up the high value of the Journal Module in its present incarnation to K-12 schools.
Being able to respond to all of the Journal entries from a class on one screen is a real benefit the Journal has over the online writing assignment. But even if someone were to come up with a lovely way to add that to the Assignment module, there would still be another significant problem with subsuming the Journal into the Assignment. Nomenclature matters!
As a Grade 10 literature teacher who successfully used the Journal all year explained, "a journal is different from an assignment. It may be a type of assignment, but it is a type that evokes the easy sharing of thoughts, and a certain intimacy rather than the formality of of anything termed straight up "an assignment." This teacher was dejected when I explained that our Moodle Partner host said they might soon be unwilling to address my questions about the Journal's behavior (those backslashes) in that it is no longer supported. She uses the Online Assignment too, but sees the latter as a more formal and specific "Assignment," not a Journal.
I can see where "Lecture Feedback" certainly has its place and applaud its good designers. However most K-12 schools do not need a to use Moodle to track whether students are in their seats for a lecture.
What they do need is for Moodle to stay true to its constructivist roots, something the Journal module does uniquely well. To continue a back and forth discussion between student and teacher on the nature of a child's developing thinking on a school topic is a wonderful thing. Why end this excellent practice?
In this week's training sessions, my science teachers focussed particularly on the Journal Module for classes where a student's developing thinking about her indendent research is a great thing. These teachers don't want to carry two dozen paper journals around for reading and response. They do want their students to keep a journal for all the good reasons associated with that practice, and the teachers want to read and respond to those journals digitally.They want to see when the entries were made, they want to get through a group of those responses on one screen, quickly and efficiently.
My teachers and I don't want to give students a writing assignment when we mean to encourage them to write in journals. We do give writing assignments, but those assignments are a more formal type of writing, with different expectations and intentions, than those associated with Journal writing.
Please, please keep the Journal module and please don't turn it into a attendance taker.
If what's needed is a capable programmer to care and tend to the Journal, shouldn't an all points bulletin go out, rather than an axe fall?
Thank you for your consideration.
Having just spend a year incrementally introducing Moodle at a K-12 girls' school, and the previous week doing virtually nothing else besides Moodle training for faculty so that they might work on their classes in Moodle during the summer break, I am pressed to bring up the high value of the Journal Module in its present incarnation to K-12 schools.
Being able to respond to all of the Journal entries from a class on one screen is a real benefit the Journal has over the online writing assignment. But even if someone were to come up with a lovely way to add that to the Assignment module, there would still be another significant problem with subsuming the Journal into the Assignment. Nomenclature matters!
As a Grade 10 literature teacher who successfully used the Journal all year explained, "a journal is different from an assignment. It may be a type of assignment, but it is a type that evokes the easy sharing of thoughts, and a certain intimacy rather than the formality of of anything termed straight up "an assignment." This teacher was dejected when I explained that our Moodle Partner host said they might soon be unwilling to address my questions about the Journal's behavior (those backslashes) in that it is no longer supported. She uses the Online Assignment too, but sees the latter as a more formal and specific "Assignment," not a Journal.
I can see where "Lecture Feedback" certainly has its place and applaud its good designers. However most K-12 schools do not need a to use Moodle to track whether students are in their seats for a lecture.
What they do need is for Moodle to stay true to its constructivist roots, something the Journal module does uniquely well. To continue a back and forth discussion between student and teacher on the nature of a child's developing thinking on a school topic is a wonderful thing. Why end this excellent practice?
In this week's training sessions, my science teachers focussed particularly on the Journal Module for classes where a student's developing thinking about her indendent research is a great thing. These teachers don't want to carry two dozen paper journals around for reading and response. They do want their students to keep a journal for all the good reasons associated with that practice, and the teachers want to read and respond to those journals digitally.They want to see when the entries were made, they want to get through a group of those responses on one screen, quickly and efficiently.
My teachers and I don't want to give students a writing assignment when we mean to encourage them to write in journals. We do give writing assignments, but those assignments are a more formal type of writing, with different expectations and intentions, than those associated with Journal writing.
Please, please keep the Journal module and please don't turn it into a attendance taker.
If what's needed is a capable programmer to care and tend to the Journal, shouldn't an all points bulletin go out, rather than an axe fall?
Thank you for your consideration.
Remember that you can simply change the name of "online text assignment" to whatever you like in the language pack and that Moodle 2.0 sees the return of the page that allows users to see all the journal responses in the course at the same time.
The functionality is so similar that it doesn't seem to make sense to me to keep the two running in parallel. I would rather put the effort into Assignment to keep the Journal users happy. To this end I'm happy to hear (and address) and suggestions or feedback.
The functionality is so similar that it doesn't seem to make sense to me to keep the two running in parallel. I would rather put the effort into Assignment to keep the Journal users happy. To this end I'm happy to hear (and address) and suggestions or feedback.
Doesn't the solution of changing the name of the "online text assignment" to "Journal" in the language pack mean that there is no more online text assignment for that course?
Is there a better solution for those who use both?
For what its worth, If we had our fantasy Journal, it would include a time/date stamp and prior posted entries would not be editable.
On a regular basis it would be possible for the teacher to respond to all current student entries on one screen.
At any point during the term (most useful at the end), the teacher could page through each of an individual student's entries to see the sweep and arc of the thinking.
Is there a better solution for those who use both?
For what its worth, If we had our fantasy Journal, it would include a time/date stamp and prior posted entries would not be editable.
On a regular basis it would be possible for the teacher to respond to all current student entries on one screen.
At any point during the term (most useful at the end), the teacher could page through each of an individual student's entries to see the sweep and arc of the thinking.
Our teachers also have said that they didn't see the Online Assingment as a replacement for the Journal. This was the major issue here. In Journal the complete answers and gradings are shown, having more room for them than in the Assignment grading table.
For my two pennies worth, I think we should keep the journal. It seems from reading just this thread there is enough evidence that using the assignment instead would reduce teacher usability - that would be my first impression too. Presumably, however,using the online assignment instead of the journal would not effect the student experience - although you'd lose the journal icon.
Obviously it is a shame if no-ones developing the module though. Couldn't it appear as a separate activity module, but pull functions from the assignment? (The only problem I can foresee would be if someone deleted the assignment and kept the journal, so maybe common functions should be kept in the lib directory).
Obviously it is a shame if no-ones developing the module though. Couldn't it appear as a separate activity module, but pull functions from the assignment? (The only problem I can foresee would be if someone deleted the assignment and kept the journal, so maybe common functions should be kept in the lib directory).
I think part of the problem is that many teachers want to give the absolute minimum time to learning how to use Moodle. Some (in my experience) have problems getting to grips with some of the most basic features and those who do use Journal do so precisely because of its simplicity. I would dearly love to move them on to (slightly) more sophisticated usage but there is real resistance. (Half of our ICT teaching department have problems with Moodle let alone the rest 
). Maybe moving to assignment would force the issue, but I suspect that a significant percentage would not make that move.
). Maybe moving to assignment would force the issue, but I suspect that a significant percentage would not make that move.
You have a valid point.
Of course, Assignment isn't Workshop. Part of me thinks that a lot of this resistance is due to never having even looked at or considered the alternatives. I would be surprised if many people had *real* problems with Assignment if one day Journal was not there.
Of course, Assignment isn't Workshop. Part of me thinks that a lot of this resistance is due to never having even looked at or considered the alternatives. I would be surprised if many people had *real* problems with Assignment if one day Journal was not there.
Alternative solution (to please all? I doubt it)
From a tutor perspective: they select "Journal" from the add activity dropdown and get a tool that does journal stuff (definition nice and loose there)
What actually happens in the system:
An instance of the online/Inline assignment activity is initiated with all the settings that make it a 'journal' ticked/set by default so it acts like a journal from the start.
This would retire the old journal activity, make use of the online assignment activity, give the perception that journal and assignment are different beasts to the users. And the whole lot could be sold to existing users of the old journal that its an upgrade/improvement/honest its not something completely different.
There would probably need to be some sort of db migration for us admins to smooth the process along (or I have to migrate 82 journals!)
Is this the musings of a made dreamer or a possible way forward?
Just as an aside I have a few tutors using the advanced upload assignment as a journal as students can scrawl text and upload files/screen captures etc. They like this as it has the added value of the uploads, which online /inline text doesn't.
So to add to the above, I'd ideally have two journal links, the second pointing to a preset advanced upload activity....
From a tutor perspective: they select "Journal" from the add activity dropdown and get a tool that does journal stuff (definition nice and loose there)
What actually happens in the system:
An instance of the online/Inline assignment activity is initiated with all the settings that make it a 'journal' ticked/set by default so it acts like a journal from the start.
This would retire the old journal activity, make use of the online assignment activity, give the perception that journal and assignment are different beasts to the users. And the whole lot could be sold to existing users of the old journal that its an upgrade/improvement/honest its not something completely different.
There would probably need to be some sort of db migration for us admins to smooth the process along (or I have to migrate 82 journals!)
Is this the musings of a made dreamer or a possible way forward?
Just as an aside I have a few tutors using the advanced upload assignment as a journal as students can scrawl text and upload files/screen captures etc. They like this as it has the added value of the uploads, which online /inline text doesn't.
So to add to the above, I'd ideally have two journal links, the second pointing to a preset advanced upload activity....
Personally, I like this idea. I used Journal in version 1.4 because there was no Online Assignment activity then, but I hated it, can't remember why. I've actually hidden it on our latest (1.8.3) system.
On a related note, is the Moodle team committed to structuring the different assignment types as de facto separate activities? Not being able to switch between an Offline activity and Upload Files, or Simple and Advanced uploading ,for example is a major headache.
On a related note, is the Moodle team committed to structuring the different assignment types as de facto separate activities? Not being able to switch between an Offline activity and Upload Files, or Simple and Advanced uploading ,for example is a major headache.
I agree!
I get around that problem by editing the database directly (changing one or two fields that act as flags for assignment type), allowing me to change existing simple assignments into advanced assignments. I've done it enough times with no unwanted side-effects that I am sure it can be programmed safely into the user interface in php.
I get around that problem by editing the database directly (changing one or two fields that act as flags for assignment type), allowing me to change existing simple assignments into advanced assignments. I've done it enough times with no unwanted side-effects that I am sure it can be programmed safely into the user interface in php.
Why do you want to do that? I'd don't ever recall needing to change the type of an existing assignment.
scenario 1: a course creator creates simple online assignments and then the teacher using the course wants to be able to allow students to upload files as well
scenario 2: simple upload assignments are created long ago and now we want to allow students to add notes about what they are uploading or re-uploading
note: because we do continuous enrollment, we cannot simply erase an activity and re-create it without losing marks for students not yet finished ... and having to manually recreate those marks in the new activity
scenario 2: simple upload assignments are created long ago and now we want to allow students to add notes about what they are uploading or re-uploading
note: because we do continuous enrollment, we cannot simply erase an activity and re-create it without losing marks for students not yet finished ... and having to manually recreate those marks in the new activity
Most of our courses (especially those developped in the old days when journal activities were still cool) are continuous self-paced which means there is no time of year when we can cut and paste journal activities into assignment activities because the marks would also have to be manually retyped in. Far too tedious!!
is there some conversion code (or sql snippets) that we can use to convert journals to assignments on the fly and not have to re-enter the gradebooks?
Notice of a Possible Bug with Migrated Journals in Grader Report 1.9:
Has anyone else noticed that journal activities show up without marks in gradebook 1.9 ? I mean after migrating to 1.9, i can see the marks in the individual journal activities but they are blank (and not used in aggregate calculations) in the grader report
It appears to me that the marks must be stored in two separate and independent places because I can add marks for journals via GRADER REPORT but it does change anything in mod/journal/report.php
and vice versa
Also, entering new marks via mod/journal/report.php does not appear in GRADER REPORT
If this is confirmed, it may mean that the journal activity is currently unusable as a contributor to aggregate marks in moodle 1.9
is there some conversion code (or sql snippets) that we can use to convert journals to assignments on the fly and not have to re-enter the gradebooks?
Notice of a Possible Bug with Migrated Journals in Grader Report 1.9:
Has anyone else noticed that journal activities show up without marks in gradebook 1.9 ? I mean after migrating to 1.9, i can see the marks in the individual journal activities but they are blank (and not used in aggregate calculations) in the grader report
It appears to me that the marks must be stored in two separate and independent places because I can add marks for journals via GRADER REPORT but it does change anything in mod/journal/report.php
and vice versa
Also, entering new marks via mod/journal/report.php does not appear in GRADER REPORT
If this is confirmed, it may mean that the journal activity is currently unusable as a contributor to aggregate marks in moodle 1.9
When Journal was first "replaced" by Assigment many releases ago a script was included as part of the upgrade that converted (well copied actually) all the Journals over. It actually didn't work for me (and others I understand) which is why I have such a problem with obsolete Journals. Part of my original plan was to resurrect that script for the 1.9 upgrade but this time actually take Journals out. I'm not sure what to do about that now. I guess I need a higher power to make a decision
I'm not remotely surprised that Journal does not work with the new grades - please do remember that it has no development work done on it (another reason to move).
I'm not remotely surprised that Journal does not work with the new grades - please do remember that it has no development work done on it (another reason to move).
I'm very late to this discussion, but I used to use the Journal module all the time. Now I use the Online Assignment all the time. I think there must be a message or two by me back in the day pleading for the continuation of the Journal module; now I don't think I could tell you how it even worked. I am surprised with every update that the Journal is still on the module page (and grayed out).
Here's how I read and evaluate my students' work:
I first go to the complete assignment and choose "View # submitted assignments." Then I right click on the the first student's "Grade" link to create a new tab. I get a new page with two versions of my student's work. In the first box, I usually Command-A it and start typing my comments. When I'm done, I choose "Save and show next." It usually saves quickly, and I'm on to the next one. To tell you the truth, I don't miss the Journal at all.
Here's how I read and evaluate my students' work:
I first go to the complete assignment and choose "View # submitted assignments." Then I right click on the the first student's "Grade" link to create a new tab. I get a new page with two versions of my student's work. In the first box, I usually Command-A it and start typing my comments. When I'm done, I choose "Save and show next." It usually saves quickly, and I'm on to the next one. To tell you the truth, I don't miss the Journal at all.
Since this appears to be undocumented , here is how I finally (and happily) converted 400 journals across 50 courses into corresponding online assignments: (I used moodle 1.9beta4 source code for this)
1. go into moodle source code and locate the folder: mod/assignment/type/online/db
2. make a copy of either mysql.php or postgresql.php into migrate_journals.php (depending on the database program you use) ... this will be the script that will do the conversions. It is a library file which contains one function called assignment_type_online_upgrade
3. modify migrate_journals.php in three ways:
3a. add a relative call to config.php at the very top
3b. we need to define $oldversion to be some number less than 2005042900 (this "fake" requirement is probably what caused the reported failures of this script reported in tracker and this forum)
3c. add a call to assignment_type_online_upgrade at the very bottom with a value less than 2005042900
4. just to make sure everything gets converted, you could do the following SQL statements directly into your database before and after item 5:
4a. select count(*) from mdl_journal;
4b. select count(*) from mdl_assignment;
4c. select count(*) from mdl_journal_entries;
4d. select count(*) from mdl_assignment_submissions;
5. call migrate_journals.php from your browser
6. check if your journals have converted to assignments
voila! I love opensource
p.s. I uploaded what the finished file looks like. If you use it, it is completely at your own peril. Make backups first!. If you still want to use it, It is intended to be placed at the root folder of moodle source code.
1. go into moodle source code and locate the folder: mod/assignment/type/online/db
2. make a copy of either mysql.php or postgresql.php into migrate_journals.php (depending on the database program you use) ... this will be the script that will do the conversions. It is a library file which contains one function called assignment_type_online_upgrade
3. modify migrate_journals.php in three ways:
3a. add a relative call to config.php at the very top
3b. we need to define $oldversion to be some number less than 2005042900 (this "fake" requirement is probably what caused the reported failures of this script reported in tracker and this forum)
3c. add a call to assignment_type_online_upgrade at the very bottom with a value less than 2005042900
4. just to make sure everything gets converted, you could do the following SQL statements directly into your database before and after item 5:
4a. select count(*) from mdl_journal;
4b. select count(*) from mdl_assignment;
4c. select count(*) from mdl_journal_entries;
4d. select count(*) from mdl_assignment_submissions;
5. call migrate_journals.php from your browser
6. check if your journals have converted to assignments
voila! I love opensource
p.s. I uploaded what the finished file looks like. If you use it, it is completely at your own peril. Make backups first!. If you still want to use it, It is intended to be placed at the root folder of moodle source code.
in one instance of migrating journals to assignments, i discovered that the migrate_journals script silently dropped the journal comments from being copied to assignment submission comments
for the record, here is the sql snippet that saved the day
update mdl_journal_entries j join mdl_assignment_submissions a on (text=data1 and a.userid=j.userid and submissioncomment ='' and a.timemarked=j.timemarked and a.teacher=j.teacher and a.grade =j.rating) set submissioncomment=text where text <>'' ;
note: I did not check the 14,000 entries individually to make 100% sure they copied correctly into the right slot.
for the record, here is the sql snippet that saved the day
update mdl_journal_entries j join mdl_assignment_submissions a on (text=data1 and a.userid=j.userid and submissioncomment ='' and a.timemarked=j.timemarked and a.teacher=j.teacher and a.grade =j.rating) set submissioncomment=text where text <>'' ;
note: I did not check the 14,000 entries individually to make 100% sure they copied correctly into the right slot.
Ceterum Censeo...
From an educational point of view there is a big difference between Blogs, Assignments and Journals, so having them under different names helps you to cue the students:
- Blogs are private diaries, shouted to the world like Bridget Jones
- Assignments are the core actiivities of a course, the deliverables, the core activities: all the other activities, including the content of the blocks, are supporting this core..
- Journal is for reflection: writing privat notes while you think about your course, with the option to get a comment from a real professor: this fits in the tradition of the notebooks in science, arts and architecture tradition: "Be like da Vinci, make your own notebook"
Unless I'm missing something completely - surely this SQL copies the student's entry (field text on the journal side) over to the teacher's reply (submissioncomment on the assignment side).
We have just migrated to Moodle from Blackboard, and the coming death of the Journal activity has thrown a wrench into my plans. I have discovered this thread regarding this issue, and the ability of online assignments to fill the gap, but my situation has issues which the online assignment, as least as I understand it, doesn't completely solve.
I was hoping for the students to be able to regularly (~weekly) write about their experiences and progress in an ongoing manner, to see how this progresses over time. I was planning to look at the journals once every few weeks to provide some feedback. But from what I understand of online assignments, each submission from the student will be a separate entity, therefore not allowing for an ongoing narrative, nor my contributing feedback to groups of entries (I would have to grade each submission separately). This is both impractical for our situation, and lessens the experience for the student. Am I missing a portion of the functionality of the online assignments? I appreciate whatever guidance you can offer.
I was hoping for the students to be able to regularly (~weekly) write about their experiences and progress in an ongoing manner, to see how this progresses over time. I was planning to look at the journals once every few weeks to provide some feedback. But from what I understand of online assignments, each submission from the student will be a separate entity, therefore not allowing for an ongoing narrative, nor my contributing feedback to groups of entries (I would have to grade each submission separately). This is both impractical for our situation, and lessens the experience for the student. Am I missing a portion of the functionality of the online assignments? I appreciate whatever guidance you can offer.
Hi Mark --
Your assessment of what the primary difference between the Journal and the Online Assignment is correct as far as I can tell. The journal does an excellent job of maintaining an ongoing discussion between student and teacher and, just like a paper journal, makes it easy to follow the development of an idea over time.
With the online assignment, there is no option for an ongoing dialog. You are foced to keep recreating a new assignment over and over, and to see development of an idea, you will need to open each assignment individually -- an awkward and unweildly task, by comparison.
Currently, as I understand it, it is not possible to include journal grades in the gradebook. In 2.0, the journal wil be absent altogether which, to my mind and the minds of several other teachers at my school, is an unfortunate loss.
I do not understand the thinking behind abandoning the journal, which continues to function in a stable fashion.
I'm hoping your message will encourage a developer response on the thinkig behind the planned demise of the journal assignment.
Lisa
Your assessment of what the primary difference between the Journal and the Online Assignment is correct as far as I can tell. The journal does an excellent job of maintaining an ongoing discussion between student and teacher and, just like a paper journal, makes it easy to follow the development of an idea over time.
With the online assignment, there is no option for an ongoing dialog. You are foced to keep recreating a new assignment over and over, and to see development of an idea, you will need to open each assignment individually -- an awkward and unweildly task, by comparison.
Currently, as I understand it, it is not possible to include journal grades in the gradebook. In 2.0, the journal wil be absent altogether which, to my mind and the minds of several other teachers at my school, is an unfortunate loss.
I do not understand the thinking behind abandoning the journal, which continues to function in a stable fashion.
I'm hoping your message will encourage a developer response on the thinkig behind the planned demise of the journal assignment.
Lisa
While I sympathize with the plight of the journal, but as far as your recitation, you can use the advanced online assignment to provide an ongoing discussion and you can create a graded item for the journal assignment. And one should remember the forum discussion feature as well as the ability to essentially journal through a personal forum or personal wiki.
Howard has been correct in pointing out that what you call a thing does not necessarily change what it does. Perhaps what is needed is simply some additional docs addressing the usage questions. I know I have used wikis for providing journal prompts and others have used other activities to do likewise.
Howard has been correct in pointing out that what you call a thing does not necessarily change what it does. Perhaps what is needed is simply some additional docs addressing the usage questions. I know I have used wikis for providing journal prompts and others have used other activities to do likewise.
I'm confused. What do you mean by "advanced online assignment?"
What I tried to explain, and apologies if I was not clear, is that the online assignment does NOT provide an ongoing discussion beyond two to three exchanges. I contrasted that with the journal, which provides an unlimited exchange between teacher and student.
I am also confused by your reference to the forum discussion. The diffference there, which has seemed clear, is that a forum discussion is exactly that -- a forum -- not a private dialogue between teacher and student. The point that has been made by others in this dialogue, several times, is that the online assignment can do everything the journal can, not that other activities might provide lesser experiences than the one the journal currently does.
If the online assignment is meant to have unlimited back and forths between student and teacher, as the journal does, that would be great. If the online assignment has been "broken" for the last several versions of Moodle and will be fixed in 2.0, that would be helpful to know. If so, the only pertinent question remaining would be--for those of us using both the Journal and the Online assignment, for the different functions they each serve in their current iterations, will it be possible to use both names in 2.0?
Thank you for your thoughts.
Lisa
What I tried to explain, and apologies if I was not clear, is that the online assignment does NOT provide an ongoing discussion beyond two to three exchanges. I contrasted that with the journal, which provides an unlimited exchange between teacher and student.
I am also confused by your reference to the forum discussion. The diffference there, which has seemed clear, is that a forum discussion is exactly that -- a forum -- not a private dialogue between teacher and student. The point that has been made by others in this dialogue, several times, is that the online assignment can do everything the journal can, not that other activities might provide lesser experiences than the one the journal currently does.
If the online assignment is meant to have unlimited back and forths between student and teacher, as the journal does, that would be great. If the online assignment has been "broken" for the last several versions of Moodle and will be fixed in 2.0, that would be helpful to know. If so, the only pertinent question remaining would be--for those of us using both the Journal and the Online assignment, for the different functions they each serve in their current iterations, will it be possible to use both names in 2.0?
Thank you for your thoughts.
Lisa
Hi Lisa-
Don't know if you're still reading this thread, but something I've found successful as a workaround to loss of Journal is setting up a Forum with "separate groups." If you then set up a course-wide group for each student, with each student as a member of his/her own group, the students will only see their own posts and your replies in that Forum. You can carry on a threaded conversation with each student from one location in this way.
(This was not my discovery, and I'm actually looking for the original post with this idea so I can credit it properly -- if anyone knows where it is, please reply!)
One drawback, however: in a "separate groups" Forum, you cannot post prompts to which all students can reply. If you post a prompt before entering a group in the Forum (via the dropdown at top left), students can read your prompts but not reply to them. You must enter a group, then post your prompt, then enter the next group, etc., if you want students to reply to your prompts. A workaround for this: post your prompt and ask the students to copy its subject for their reply.
Another potential drawback: grades for the Forum are cumulative, and show up in the gradebook as an average grade for the entire Forum rather than individual entries. However, appropriate gradebook weighting of the Forum grade should take care of this.
If you name the Forum "Journal," students will get the picture.
Has anyone found other suggestions/workarounds?
-Sean
Don't know if you're still reading this thread, but something I've found successful as a workaround to loss of Journal is setting up a Forum with "separate groups." If you then set up a course-wide group for each student, with each student as a member of his/her own group, the students will only see their own posts and your replies in that Forum. You can carry on a threaded conversation with each student from one location in this way.
(This was not my discovery, and I'm actually looking for the original post with this idea so I can credit it properly -- if anyone knows where it is, please reply!)
One drawback, however: in a "separate groups" Forum, you cannot post prompts to which all students can reply. If you post a prompt before entering a group in the Forum (via the dropdown at top left), students can read your prompts but not reply to them. You must enter a group, then post your prompt, then enter the next group, etc., if you want students to reply to your prompts. A workaround for this: post your prompt and ask the students to copy its subject for their reply.
Another potential drawback: grades for the Forum are cumulative, and show up in the gradebook as an average grade for the entire Forum rather than individual entries. However, appropriate gradebook weighting of the Forum grade should take care of this.
If you name the Forum "Journal," students will get the picture.
Has anyone found other suggestions/workarounds?
-Sean
In the settings for the Online Text Assignment you can allow resubmissions and select inline comments. I think this will take care of your issue with an ongoing journal.
I would love it if that were the case. Unfortunately, we find that while a teacher can achieve two or three back and forth rounds by allowing resubmission and selecting inline comments, that is it. The conversation can go no further. One can create a new assignment and instruct students to copy and paste the last entry into the new assignment to continue the conversation, but one will surely hear comments about "lame software" as a result.
Please test and let me know if you find the behavior to be different.
Thank you.
Please test and let me know if you find the behavior to be different.
Thank you.
What version of Moodle do you have, Lisa? We are on version 1.9.2 and were able to successfully go back and forth for 4 times between teacher and student. Here is what we did in the Online Text Assignment:
- We did not assign a grade between submissions.
- Prevent late submissions was set to No.
- Allow resubmitting was set to Yes.
- The correspondence between teacher and student was done on the same day.
Has anyone else experienced the same thing Lisa has?
Thanks!