MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

David Delgado發表於
Number of replies: 44

Please, take a look at the LIVE-MINI PAPER we are writing about all that. I posted it into Moodle Buzz, but they deleted it. Frown Your comments will be welcomed.

By the way, I have found some interesting criticism about Moodle inside the Moodle Community, please take a look at it (you can enter as guest):

Something Rotten in the State of Moodle?

Moodle 1.7 -- Not Feeling it!

Moodle Trademark Email

The Moodle trademark as adjective and noun

Moodle Cease-and-Desist on Schoolforge-UK

Moodle Partner Ethics Questioned

Moodle Partner Ethics Questioned Cont...

Island of Misfit Toys Moodlers

If you love Moodle, you'd better read all that. Money mouth

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In reply to David Delgado

Old news ...

Martin Dougiamas發表於
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You've copied all that from Steve Hyndman's old site, I see (currently down).

I really don't think you needed to dredge some of that up again quite so provocatively, nor is it related to this discussion topic about your paper (is it?), but should anybody still be having troubles understanding the trademark issue and how the Moodle Project is able to fund the development of Free software then yes, there's some good info buried in those discussions.
In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

David Delgado發表於
Yes, something strange happened to the moodle site where I got those links. You can see for yourself... http://moodleus.org. I am happy we are still using Moodle 1.6 at work! pensativo

Martin, I would recommed you to read again what we talked about long time ago, and specially this link from there. By the way, can I get my hat back, please?
In reply to David Delgado

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Steve Hyndman發表於
David....were you bad and got your hat taken away? 微笑
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In reply to David Delgado

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Julian Ridden發表於

Do ppl not recognise what the word Beta means anymore. It is not guarranteed bug free and is still smoothing out it's rough edges.

Why Steve has not moed on to Blackboard or WebCT is beyond me.

P.S. I upgraded my site to 1.8 with no issues (not that I am recommending it just yet, what till a formal announcement on stability) so not sure exactly where the issues are coming from.

In reply to Julian Ridden

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Steve Hyndman發表於

Why Steve has not moed on to Blackboard or WebCT is beyond me.

Julian,

I do use Blackboard and Moodle both. I use Moodle for my web-assisted courses and I use Blackboard for my 100% online courses. Didn't realize I had to "move on" to anything. But that's really not the point, is it? 微笑

Yes, I, and I think most others, do understand what Beta means. I upgraded my site to 1.7 first (not beta) and it broke, so I figured what the heck, can't get any worse, so I went ahead and upgraded to 1.8...well, it got worse 微笑. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about that....I'm just reporting my experiences on my site. It's a "hobby" site, not a production site. I have more sense than to do this on a production site.

Now, back to you comment "Why Steve has not moed on to Blackboard or WebCT is beyond me." What you are really saying is that I wish Steve would just shut-up isn't it? You don't really care whether I move on to Blackboard, WebCT, or anything, you just wish I would stop saying anything negative about Moodle.com

As you can see....since July of last year, my posts on this site have been few...when I see my name mentioned (as it was in this thread) then I'll post if I feel I need/want to, and when I see someone getting bullied/attacked  (like in this post: http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=66331) then I'll post if I feel I need/want to.

Also, when/if Moodle.com realizes that Moodle was built by a community (not one person) and decides that it can protect its trademark, have a partners program, and allow others to write the word Moodle on their sites to offer services, then I'll start posting here and actually helping again...like I did for over two years prior to July 06.

In the mean time, I'll just continue with my "hobby" of criticizing Moodle.com for not doing this. Now, back to your query one more time...you "really" don't care what system I use, do you?....you really just wish I would stop criticizing Moodle.com, don't you?

Steve 

In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

David Delgado發表於
Steve, your "constructive" criticism on Moodle is welcomed. We'll try to help you. Why don't you just ask for help in fixing your site instead of complaining?
In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Old news ...but continuing news :-)

Steve Hyndman發表於

You're right...they were (are) all on my site. www.moodleus.org just in case anyone is looking for it. We're experiencing some "technical difficulties" right now, but the site is still there and will be back up as soon as I get a chance to work on it. Just wanted to put your mind at ease Martin since you and Michael Blake were among the first to create an account on my site and list all your Moodle Partners there 微笑.

I'm not sure why David posted this....maybe he just felt expressing his freedom of speech on an "open" social constructivist site. But, I do agree with what you posted in another thread when you said...and I paraphrase...you don't really need to create a lot of resources in an online learning site...students do have Google.

If anyone wants to get "up to speed" on the Moodle trademark issue all they have to do is Google "Moodle trademark", "Moodle Monopoly", etc....it's all there....and not all of it is listed here...like, for example, this:

http://www.alledia.com/blog/general-cms-issues/open-source-projects-not-really-open?/

This will be "dredged up" as you call it for a long time....so get comfortable with it...it may even show-up in a published paper in a popular ed-tech journal before too long 微笑

Steve

In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Old news ...but continuing news :-)

Martin Dougiamas發表於
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My phrase "dredging up" referred to some of the misconceptions posted in those discussions and their titles. I was not referring to the actual and true situation of how the Moodle project really works, which is entirely open and ethical.

I'm 100% comfortable with the very minimal way I'm using my trademark to help the community and so are 99% of all the clients, users, developers, universities and companies who feel they are stakeholders in Moodle.

It's very true we could explain it more clearly for the remaining 1% (currently it's only on the License and in the Moodle.com FAQs) and I'll make sure we do that when we redesign http://moodle.org and http://moodle.com soon (right after we finish 1.8!)
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In reply to David Delgado

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Martin Dougiamas發表於
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I just split this discussion from the other unrelated one.

BTW, no-one deleted anything from the Buzz, your link is still there, unapproved.
In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

David Delgado發表於
Sorry, Martin. It is MY fault. ojo amoratado I hope you do not get angry about me because of this discussion. 傷心 You are, and always will be, my friend. Nearly nobody but you on the Net knows about Arabella. And, of course, I DO LOVE MOODLE, which is YOUR son.

I am sure we will meet each other some day face to face, and, then, you will understand everything.sonrojado
In reply to David Delgado

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Timothy Takemoto發表於

I love Moodle. It is great software. Martin Dougiamas is a very good programmer and (perhaps even more poignant to the success of moodle) an excellent online community leader.

All the same though, as expressed elsewhere, I have a certain degree of sympathy with the view expressed by Steve Hyndman.

[Last time I expressed sympathy with Steve I recieved a message from a main moodler suggesting that Steve is my 'friend,' as if I am in cahoots! Steve seems an okay guy. He is my 'friend,' from my point of view, as much as others here are.]

Anyway, now that I understand the moodle.com business model I am in the main, even more impressed by Martin Dougiamas. Moodle.com is well sussed, intelligent and effective as a business strategy. Martin Dougiamas is or is going to be a rich man. Very definately business class... yeah!

All the same though, I have a minor peeve, I suppose.

It seems to me that the business model could be made clearer.

The fact that the use of the word "Moodle" is a trademark and that use of the trademark is NOT
1) useable with disclaimers (e.g. "This commercial site is not approved by moodle.com in any way")
2) meritocratic but rather er (I hope I am using this word correctly) monopolistic in the sense that only a very limited number of organisations (2 in Japapn I believe) can use the trademark within any geographical region.

These facts could be made clearer.

Any business model is fair as long as all parties can reasonably understand what they are getting involved in.  One can sell a glass of tap water for ten dollars if the drinker is told the price before she drinks. One can also say, after the drinker drinks, "give me ten dollars for that glass of tap water" if the drinker can reasonably be expected to have known that the glass of water is going to be expensive (e.g. in a chique restaurant). Any exchange, any cooperation, is 'fair' so long as it is out in the open.

There is nothing wrong with being non-egalitarian (in my view). I have no beef whatsoever about the fact that  XYZ (MS, Apple, etc.) company makes a lot of money and does NOT share its profits.

However, it seems to me that Moodle.com gives an impression of being less commercial, less monopolistic than it is, so it might, hopefully, for the sake of good vibes and general human happiness, make its commerciality a little bit clearler. Because there may be people that do not understand just how commercial Moodle.com is.

I was a silly billy. I thought we were a lot more egalitarian than we are. I thought that we were more of a community. 

There are many shades of egality. I would not have been surprised enough to be posting this were Moodle like Linux that only controls the use of the word "Linux" in company names and websites, or TOEIC that allows for uses of the word "TOEIC" (tm) with disclaimers. 

By strictly controlling the use of the trademark "moodle" Moodle.com is a very successful commercial organisation. Cool.

I feel, however, that it could be a little bit more open about this fact, so that all volunteers are all fullly aware of the nature of the commercial entity to which they are contributing. People like to contribute to egalitarian enterprises. People are less keen to contribute to commercial monopolies.

I used to send my beer money to Martin at Christmas! Ho ho. Would I have sent donations to Bill Gates, to put him through university say (I love Windows 2000 too)? Woud I have posted 2000 posts to the nacent Microsoft support forms? I am not sure.

In my stupidity, I feel like a sucker. I may well have no right to think in that way. I am just stupid. No one suckered anyone. Surely. Surely?

Moodle.com can make sure that there are less stupid volunteers, like moi, by making its nature painfully clear.

Timothy

In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

A. T. Wyatt發表於
Timothy, I think you make some good points. But (and maybe I misunderstood your post) I disagree that the community efforts provide major support for moodle.com (although, of course, moodle.com might use some of what the community produces--surely GPL goes both ways?) I think there are far more people using Moodle outside of the partner/commercial umbrella than under it, and the community is a major support/development source for those folks!

I don't think we are stupid volunteers and I am sorry that you (and maybe others) feel that way. Some of your work has helped me personally, at my institution. And I have gotten a lot of help from others too. I appreciate it enormously. I like the fact that large universities with support staff create custom code that they then release to the rest of us. Some gets in the core, some stays in third-party, but we all benefit.

How many Moodle instances are for-profit (or even non-profit, but providing hosting for a fee) and thus affected by potential trademark issues? It seems to me that this, in the total scheme of moodle instances, might be a small percentage.
Aren't most moodle installations individual schools? So in my eyes, the vast majority of the good the community contributes goes right back to similar entities--schools, universities, and corporate training instances. I think that is very egalitarian and community minded.

Maybe I missed the point, but sometimes I think the trademark issue gets blown out of proportion. I also think that connecting it so strongly to the community efforts might not be logical. I guess there are some overlaps, but I tend to see them as largely separate issues.

Just my (very) humble opinion.
atw





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In reply to A. T. Wyatt

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Howard Miller發表於
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I think in retrospect the whole trademark issue could have been handled more diplomatically, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. It seems like it was one of those things that wasn't a big deal until people's abilities to make a living / pay the rent / pay the staff became dependent on it.

It's a little unfair (or perhaps naive) to suggest that we are contributing to some faceless commercial enterprise. I don't feel like that at all. If someone has the ability or opportunity to make a buck out of Moodle then good luck to them. In a small way I do that too so I can hardly complain (and as I am not a Moodle partner I get to keep all the money 微笑 ). Everybody contributes for their own selfish or altruistic reasons - we all get *something* out of it. You can't be too precious.
In reply to Howard Miller

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Timothy Takemoto發表於

Howard, Phil, A.T.

I am probably being too precious, sorry. I think that Moodle is an enterprise with a nice face. I am happy to have been useful, A.T. thanks! 

Phil has it right below, except (and he may undestand this perfectly),  if "we decide that we want to make money from our use of Moodle...we should get permission," we probably can't get permission.

This is because the number of moodle partners is maxed out, limited per geographical area, e.g. limited to two in Japan, I believe, and to four in the contiguous USA, I believe.

So... I don't feel that stupid. But I did feel a sort of "ah (the penny drops)", sort of feeling 微笑 That was probably just me. You were aware weren't you Phil?

Being socially constructive, open source etc., I think that it would be a good idea to be very open about it all. The trademark would then be a non-issue and we would not be having this dicussion. And I think that I probably would have probably behaved in just the same way as I did.

After making the franchise system plain, one could even have a table of countries, number of partners, and a "accepting applications" or a "not accepting applications" mark in each business area. One could also make it plain that uses of "moodle" in lists of inventory are also restricted, or not (It is my belief that they are restricted). I think it should be really, really stab in the eye clear and open.

Timothy

In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Steve Hyndman發表於

I personally believe that it really doesn't matter how "stab in the eye" clear things are...an unethical business model is still an unethical business model.

I also personally believe that it really doesn't matter how "stab in the eye" clear things are...you will still have people, who should know better, attack you for telling the truth. Sometimes that's just the price you pay for telling an "uncomfortable" truth. Take for example, Eloy Lafuente's comments at the link below:

http://www.alledia.com/blog/general-cms-issues/open-source-projects-not-really-open?/

Someone else at the link above, reported his problems, on his blog, with Moodle.com and Eloy, who has been around in Moodle-land longer than I have, repeatedly called him a liar, and a liar "on purpose".

Now, if anyone around here should understand the "Moodle business model", you would think someone who has been around as long as Eloy, would understand. Read Eloy's statements at the link above and ask yourself...do you think he understands? Do you think Steve (at Alledia) is a liar? I suggested to Eloy on that blog that he should do his homework and I'm suggesting here that he owes Steve (at Alledia) an apology.

In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)發表於
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Hehe,

it's really cool to see you again, dear "repetitive" Hyndman.

Once more, if you are able to read something else than your own voice, you'll see that I expressed repeatedly my excuses for my limited English vocabulary.

In my world, one person saying lies is a liar (i don't know if you call that another thing). Perhaps you use the "Steven Hyndman" words to define such thing? Oki, let's use them. 眨眼

And, as I repeated no less than 3 times in such blog, there were at least three "Steven Hyndman" affirmations in the original entry performed by Steve (at Alledia).

Then, you appeared in the middle of the discussion saying more "Steven Hyndman" things, repeating your own vision, not justifying anything else but your own "Steven Hyndman" once and again.

So I decided to call you what I really think about you, "Steven Hyndman". You, your "Steven Hyndman", and your Steven Hyndman's ego.

I have never used to answer you, "Steven Hyndman", but that day I decided to do it explicit, being 100% sincere with my thoughts about you, "Steven Hyndman", and your way to distort the truth, not hearing any explication and spreading your "Steven Hyndman" here and there.

And now, I'm doing that again. But, don't worry, this is my last post about you. At least I'm not obsessive nor have enough free-time to spend.

It's curious to see how you point to that Blog to defend Steve (at Alledia) when, perhaps, he haven't felt so attacked for my expressions (or perhaps yes, uhm... I'll "fix" that, for sure 是 ). What a wonderful mission you have selected "Steven Hyndman", to defend people that is able to freely talk on Blogs without your help. Congratulations for that!

Once more, you are trying to deviate the original objective of my posts there. Perhaps I'm not able to express my opinions with the best phrases or to use the correct words everytime, but my objective was to rebate some phrases along the original Blog that I think are "Steven Hyndman"-like phrases.

I really think I understand Moodle business model pretty well (far better than you, IMO, viewing your repetitive posts here and there). In fact, I've been able to do some money with it without failing to fulfil some (one?) basic rules. Do you?

So, with all the respects to Steve (at Alledian) I finish now, of course telling that you, Steven Hyndman are IMO really a "Steven Hyndman" and that I'll do whatever I want (it would be a terrible error for me if I get used to follow one "Steven Hyndman" recommendation).

Final ciao (I hope), "Steven Hyndman" 傷心

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In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Timothy Takemoto發表於

Steve
> I personally believe that it really doesn't matter how "stab in the eye" clear
> things are...an unethical business model is still an unethical business model.
I don't understand. Assuming clarity (and I take Martin L.'s point regarding precedent & open-source normality, and Howard's point regarding changing circumstance) then I don't understand what you are saying is not ethical. Why?

I am dismayed that Steve and Eloy do not see eye to eye. Steve is a friend, but Eloy is a bit of a saint in my eyes, because he has really helped me out more than once. Thank you Eloy. I wrote that slowly.

At the same time though, with the sincerest respect to Eloy, about repetition, it seems to me that there is a lot of repetition on the Moodle forums. For instance the "I can't upload more than 8M" issue, or the "safe mode" issue have been posted many many times.

Elsewhere, on other non-moodle forums, I have often seen the people write "hey, use the search function already! This has been dealt with before (boo, hiss)". 

But one of the many nice things about Moodle is that folks have been really tolerant of repetition and just respond "see this thread" or even repeat the solution again.

It seems to me that the moodle trademark has been talked about quite a lot (as summarised by David above) but considering its central importance to some, it does not seem to have been 'flogged to death' (repeated too much).

When an issue has been said oh-so-many-times then it easy to point to a thread or a documentation page.

It may be the case the the moodle trademark is one of those oh-so-many-times discussed, and well documented issues. But that is not my perception.

Like, I don't know whether Phil or Marcus are, or were, altogether clear on the situation. Were they? As I say above, I don't understand why Steve should say that the Moodle business model is unethical even when "stab in the eye" clear.

I think that things will wash out. I mean, this subject will be clear, boring, said, and repetious, if it is said and repeated. 

There are some things that are not clear to me too. Like the "inventory" use of the moodle trademark, as for instance brought up by, I think Steve Hyndman, in the (now last) post on this quoted blog. I think it isn't moodle.com-acceptable to write "We provide webhosting services using the popular open source software Moodle," without permission, but I am still not entirely sure. When there is a FAQ in the documentation, and helpful people can see another repeat question and just say "see xyz" link, then the repetitious discussion ends pretty quickly. 

Perhaps this is even a principle of social constructivism: talk dies, should die, a natural death?

Timothy

In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Steve Hyndman發表於

Timothy,

If you believe that Moodle was built and belongs to a single person (MD) or group of people (Partners), then I can where you would not see an ethical issue.

However, if you believe, as I do, that Moodle was started by a single person, but, Moodle is what it is today because of the efforts of a much larger "Open Source" community, then it begs the question...does Moodle belong to a single person or to the "Community" that had at least an equal part in building it?

I tend to believe that it belongs to the community. I tend to believe that Moodle would be nothing more than one of the hundreds of other obscure CMSs if it were not for the open source community.

When you allow the village to adopt, feed, cloth, educate, and raise your child, then you can not come back at a later date and claim exclusive rights as the child's parent.

I will not insult MD or any of his paid help by diminishing their impact on Moodle...it wouldn't be what it is today without them. By the same token, it would not be what it is today either, without the efforts of the Open Source Community. How many of those million lines of code were contributed by unpaid, non-partners? How much of Moodle's success is attributable to the work of the community? I don't know exactly, but I am comfortable in saying "a heck of a lot".

The village who raised the child should be allowed to speak its name without needing permission from the person who birthed the child.

If the community builds the community center, then the community members should be able to use it and benfit from it just as much as the person who had the idea to build it.

Sorry to get all "metaphorical", but there-in lies the ethical problem....which as of today seems to no longer be a problem.

In reply to Steve Hyndman

Open Source ethics (Re: moodle criticism inside the Moodle Community...

Martín Langhoff發表於

Hi Steve,

from an ethics POV, I personally bow to those who have done a lot of work historically, and specially to those doing the work today.

And you only have to look at the stats to see that that MartinD and his Moodle.com team are doing most of the work. There are a ton of other contributors, and they are invaluable. But that does not change the fact that there is a core team getting it done. (I'm happy to say that Catalyst does quite a bit of work, albeit rather "seasonal", I am working to fix that)

There are a ton of users -- I bow to those that contribute documentation, good quality bug reports, qa, helpful posts, etc. The community that gets things done is the community that I respect, and in that sense I think the Moodle is the most ethical and positive environments I have seen. (And I have works in many FOSS projects, too many to list.)

Of course, we often talk about the Moodle Community in a wider sense, and it is an amazing community and I just can't get over how great it is. But from an ethics POV, the documentation project gets done by a tiny subset of the wider community. And I bow to them on documentation issues.

FOSS is plagued with armchair footballers (that just don't get tired) - so this ethical stance is, IMHO, the only way to tell signal from noise. The only ones who get my respect and my ears are those who get things done for the project.

In short: whoever gets it done gets to say how it is done. Want to control a trademark? - register your own! Don't like the Linux kernel architecture bah, write your own as you clearly know better than Linus 眨眼

In that sense, there's no doubt in my mind: the man at the helm, the man that is getting the job done (and sending emails that point out that if I have time for flamewars, I can surely help fix this or that bug) is MartinD.

So - no, MartinD did not sit back after having a good idea that caught on. He is on the code, every day, fixing bugs, writing new code - as is the core Moodle.com team.

Now - to clear the air ... make sure you do something actually positive before you post to a flamewar like this one - fix a bug, QA 1.8, help polish and expand docs.moodle.org, make a commitment to help a newbie in the forums through. Help from the bottom -- the hard way.

... Not from the armchair!

In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Nicolas Connault發表於
Sorry Steve, your metaphor is faulty reasoning.

You compare Martin to
  1. a parent whose only contribution to a child's life was to give it birth before
  2. letting the community raise it up entirely, and who then
  3. comes back once the child is raised up to claim it as his own entirely.
That "metaphor" fails on all three counts to compare with Martin and his relationship with Moodle.
  1. Martin's contribution to Moodle is far greater than just giving it birth, which, in development terms, would simply mean giving it a name and releasing the first stable version. In fact Martin has been the real parent to that child, guiding its growth as it matures in the community.
  2. That community certainly has contributed to Moodle's growth, just as it always contributes, directly or indirectly, to a child's growth. But without the constant guiding eye and counsel of Martin, that growth would have lacked vision and focus, it would have been at the mercy of trends and shifting values in the world. So the community was vital to Moodle's success, but only in combination with Martin's parent-like leadership.
    Martin has been deeply involved in every single aspect of Moodle as it matures. This project has taken over his life. Most of his time is not devoted to entrepreneurship or developing a corporate entity, but to improving Moodle code for the vast majority of users who will never bring him a cent in return. Working with him daily I get to see what he does on a daily basis, and let me assure you that getting stuck in the nitty-gritty code takes a major part of his time.
  3. Just as Martin does not claim ownership over his children, he does not claim ownership over Moodle either. However he is duty-bound to provide continuing guidance and protection to both, and wants to ensure that he is always able to fulfill this responsibility. If he decided to stop looking after his children and let anyone and anybody look after them under the pretext that the community has claim over them through their continuing contributions, he would forego this responsibility of care and would be a poor parent indeed. Same with Moodle: he cannot guarantee that his vision of the project will be shared and followed by others, or that Moodle won't be used for purposes that run counter to the philosophy which gave it birth, and which only Martin understands fully (it's his philosophy after all). The trademark is one way Martin has found to fulfill his responsibility of care over the project. Responsibility is precious!
So if Moodle was a child and Martin was its parent, the metaphor would work wonderfully if it spoke of the child as well-nourished, cared for, well-taught and even loved. And I would praise Martin for doing such a great job at involving the community in bringing up that child.
In reply to Nicolas Connault

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Steve Hyndman發表於

Nicolas,

All metaphors are flawed, all metaphors are perfect, and all metaphors are somewhere in-between, depending on your vantage point.

"Just a few weeks ago, I applied for the developer position at Moodle HQ in Perth, and was promptly hired on a full-time basis."

From your vantage point, I can fully understand why you see all the flaws.

Steve 

In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Jon Bolton發表於
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Yawn!

Steve, you have a very good way of bringing out the worst in me... I've read these posts out of fascination of your ability to continuously criticise, in an attempt to hammer home your point. But I'm getting weary of your constantly negative attitude. Until now, I've never had the urge to respond, because I think you probably enjoy riling people enough for them to fill the forum with replies to your whinging.

I'm not a developer, I'm not a business - I use Moodle in a blended learning environment. It works for me, it works for my students, it has far more functionality than I need, and I could never have afforded to provide such a learning environment without Moodle.

If you don't like the model, don't use it. Simple.

I do like it. The software, and the community spirit.

But please... change the record!
In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Martín Langhoff發表於

Steve - he is getting things done. Maybe for hire, maybe volunteer, a ton of people are getting things done in a big mix. And how it is done is in the hands who are doing it.

And that is the ethics at play. Do something, here or elsewhere, and you will have control of how it is done.

Nicolas' true vantage point is that he sees MartinD working hard every day. I do too, you only have to read the CVS logs. If you did read the CVS logs you wouldn't think that anyone here is sitting back, watching how Moodle grows and reaping fat benefits.

That's how transparent and ethical this is. Look at the cvs logs, at the history of every page at docs.moodle.org, at the stats of bugs reported by each user, and bugs fixed per developer. But hey, you might have to move from that comfy armchair and that's too much effort if all you get is to... be fair to those getting the job done.

Edit: the way to cure flamewars is to provide hard data. So instead of fuzzy feely stuff, I searched for some stats on CVS activity - took 2 minutes. Did you want to know who put 5.4 years of programming (in a period of 5 calendar years) into Moodle? A guy with 2 accounts, "moodler" and "martin". http://www.ohloh.net/projects/25/analyses/latest/contributors?page=1&project=25

In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)發表於
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Wow, "Steve Hyndman",

isn't that true, then, that all we (you included) should fully understand your interested position too (not being able to make money with Moodle by failing to fulfil one simple rule). Perhaps are you confirming that your interested (monetarily interested) position also invalidates all your thoughts? Nah!

"Steve Hyndman", are you trying to circumvent, dodge, confuse, distortion once more with your stories.... I think so 複雜

Once again, you are trying to make your affirmation valid by mixing concepts "Steve Hyndman" on purpose.

Once more, I'll paste here one simple link (I'm infinitely patient, Tim, including all sort of "Steve Hyndman"):

http://docs.moodle.org/en/License

"The Moodle software package is ..... and all of it is provided under the terms of the GPL"

This means and grants, simply (if you read the GPL), that EVERYBODY can use and benefit from the Moodle software package, just as much as the person who had the idea to build it.

Are you able to "distort" that paragraph in any way too? I think it's really simple to understand it's 100% true. Are you saying that the GPL in un-ethical?

Well, that simply throws away your metaphor (a pathetic "Steven Hyndman" to mix terms).

Moodle software is free GPL to use/modify/sell or whatever you want (following GPL rules of course). So, where is the problem? IMO, the problem is that you want to get a COMMERCIAL benefit by using the Moodle software (no problem until here AFAIK) together with the Moodle name to promote it.

And that's the key concept, the Moodle name. It's a trademark, existing because Moodle (the software) needs some funding in order to continuously be improved while keeping its GPL software spirit (by paying persons like Martin or Nicolas to do the best, everyday, all the time).

I suppose that you, an experienced business "Steven Hyndman" man will know that money doesn't grow in the trees and that, everything has a cost. Well, that's true, for everybody, including yourself.

Else, the life will be really complex, with 99% of a cool Community sharing their efforts about to build one useful piece of software, while others, (1% if I've calculated it correctly) will be making money, all for them, taking advantage of the work and the well-know and well-considered name of the software. Sounds unfair, isn't it?

So, IMO, the Moodle trademark acts, at least, at two levels. First, helping Moodle software funding by fulfilling it (like Partners and/or people that have requested Martin permissions). Second, by preventing people that don't want to fulfil nor request to get an advantage by using one name that is a symbol, not only for the owner of the trademark but for the whole Community.

And you say that such trademark is un-ethical? Uhm... excuse me, just to clarify concepts.. is "un" a synonym of "very"? 吐舌頭

Wow, I think it must be something in your name, "Steven Hyndman", that forces me to write long posts once and again since some days ago. I really hope it'll be a occasional virus and will disappear soon. 眨眼

So, summarising, once more your phrases are another try to distort the reality, "Steven Hyndman", trying to confuse people about some basic and different concepts, Moodle the software (the one that you named in your incorrect methapor, that is used and benefiting to all the Community) and Moodle, the name, that is also used and beneffiting to all the Community (all users, institutions and partners) but you.

So, who is wrong?

And finally, speaking purely in economic terms and not having read too much about that... why are you against to pay royalties for your commercial activity with Moodle?

Out there, in the business world, isn't everything based on percentages of benefits, royalties and commissions. If you are a commercial, why are you trying to make your use of Moodle an exception? If another product you commerce (buy and/or sell) with requires you to pay a % of your incomes, if the product is a commercial one, would you say the same? Really? Nah!

Is the difference for you that Moodle, the software, is GPL to try to avoid such payment? I really hope your answer for this won't be: "Yes, that's the cause", because it would be the final demonstration that you haven't understood one word about the difference between the software and the name.

Uhm... "Steven Hyndman" in the other side, all the rest of answers I can imagine, make me thing about you like a avaricious commercial, trying to get the 100%, skipping some commercial responsibilities that are absolutely common in your world (the business one). Is that ethic?

There are, IMO, two different groups of moodlers:

- Moodlers whose relation with Moodle isn't money-related (poor developers, translators, documenters, helpful people, teachers, students, theorists, evangelists ... all them helping the rest and giving a great added value to the Community continuously ).
- Moodlers whose relation with Moodle is money-related (hired people, some developers and collaborators, partners... all them giving money or work to the Community continuously).

And that's all. That's the strong schema that allows Moodle to be and continue being so cool. Nothing else. So, in what group do you want to sit down? No more groups allowed, sorry.

The trick here, to belong to any group is simple, just "give something to the Community", money or work if you want to be a money-related moodler. Simple rule, perfectly legal, of course, and tremendous ethic, both for the rest of money-related and no-money-related Moodlers (i.e. the whole Community), all them giving something continuosly to the rest. Simple

Waiting to hear your next "Steven Hyndman" unconnected
In reply to Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Steve Hyndman發表於

Eloy,

I'm not sure what the problem is now....sounds like there's confusion about "who's in-charge" at Moodle.com. The policy was made perfectly clear by Martin on the blog below.

http://www.alledia.com/blog/general-cms-issues/open-source-projects-not-really-open?/

Here it is, in case you didn't get the word:

"The ONLY restriction we enforce (and this is a lot less of a restriction than many trademark holders enforce) is that you cannot call it "Moodle Hosting". That's all. "

Here is my site, changed based on that word. Is there a problem?

Steve

In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)發表於
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Once more, when you aren't able to reason something, suddenly you change of direction. Incredible!

Perfect, I know some small animals that use to do the same while flying, with their sharp bites near the water. So, I'm able to understand your attitude. Absolutely, Spain is a hot place.

I've nothing to say about Martin's policy, only about you and your distortion field (perhaps it's related with the name, Steve, curious coincidence).

I'm pretty sure that the trademark owner will defend it properly, for sure. Let's see what happens.

Of course, no matter of what happens, please, be prevented about to request any sort of help from me in the next, say, 7 years. I'm really angry now and I can not help you in this situation. 大笑 I hope that such negative feeling will change once I can detect that you have decided to belong to some of the groups of moodlers related above.

And confused....uhm. Not at all, dear "bite" (sorry, wanted to type "Steve Hyndman"). What a pathetical try, once more, incredible! 吻

Argh....what a stupid post (mine). 02:14 AM here, too tired to continue thinking in English, sorry everybody and ciao 微笑
In reply to Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Robert Brenstein發表於
I hate to post in this thread and I definitely don't want to take sides, but... the trademark and licensing matters need to be written more clearly and more completly.

As it is now, the license text is somewhat ambigous. It makes things clear for extremes, people using Moodle for teaching or using it as technology for their own endevours on one end and people providing Moodle hosting and commercial-quality support services focusing on Moodle exclusively or primarily on the other end.

But... there is a big gray area in the middle not quite properly addressed, like mentioning Moodle as underlaying technology or offering limited Moodle-related services, like work-for-hire theme development or customization of local installations. It is gray because it potentially competes with partners but then there are so few of them that they can't possibly service the whole (and rapidly expanding) market.

For example, it seems like it is ok for businesses like kentuckyclassroom to use Moodle to offer virtual classrooms for teachers as long as they don't mention Moodle, if I got the gist of that concondrum right, which seems funky to me since clients need to know the technology behind a service.

No, I don't want anyone to clarify what the gist really was or to discuss whether this is funky or not. All I am saying is that such things should be very clearly addressed in the legal terms on Moodle site, which is particularly important that more and more people will try to make money riding the wave of popularity of Moodle.

The licensing page needs more clear wording, covering more area, and more specific examples. It sounds, however, that MartinD plans to do deal with this after 1.8.
In reply to Robert Brenstein

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Ulrike Montgomery發表於

I usually don’t get involved in discussions like this and I know that Moodle is not a commercial product, but I think it’s time  to say something from a user’s (consumer's) point of view.

 

While I realize that there are plenty of people out there who can offer excellent moodle services without being a Moodle partner, I think that letting everybody do this under the Moodle logo is not an advantage for the consumer. How are we to know which outfit gives us our money’s worth if every Tom, Dick and Harry can offer Moodle-Hosting?

 

Believe me, I learned the hard way. Our first Moodle installation was hosted by a fly-by-night company since I didn’t know any better. When they did the upgrades they messed up whatever could be messed up and our Moodle site was destroyed competely. I canceled the contract immediately and if it hadn’t been for the fact that my school is quite well-known in our area, we would have ended up with a lawsuit for canceling the contract and stopping payment.

 

We are now with a Moodle partner in the UK and have been happy ever since.

If I had a Mercedes I would certainly want to take it to an authorized dealer. But how would I find the dealer if any garage was allowed to display the big star on the roof?

 

It’s the same with Moodle. In my opinion, there has to be some kind  of quality assurance for companies wanting to offer Moodle services under the Moodle logo. I think Martin D. is totally right not letting just anybody use the logo and checking out prospective applicants. After all, Mercedes won’t let just any garage use the star and since Moodle is the Mercedes of VLEs, why not handle it the same way?

 

No one is forced to go to a Moodle partner and a lot of people are just as happy with other companies. However, those of us who want an authorized partner and a warranty should be able to get this service and find a partner easily. That's called consumer-friendly. So let's not do away with this feature of Moodle.  

 

In my Moodle staff development courses the first thing I talk about  is Moodle.com and how to find the Moodle partners. I advise the schools to go with a Moodle partner  because I really don’t want anybody to go through what we had to go through.

 

 

Greetings from Mercedes land,

Ulrike

 

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In reply to Ulrike Montgomery

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Manish Verma發表於
I beg to differ.

Hosting performances can be evaluated by general ratings/actual user feedbacks. Like for example places like webhostingtalk.com are great for general hosting recommendations. Even if it is Moodle hosting, I think it should be the same way. As a user I would like to see such a place for Moodle hosting recommendations. I think moodle.org is doing a great job in that respect though there is too much mention of partner program but it is understandable.

The people behind Moodle (I mean the ones who are contributing a lot) must make money and for that trademark protection or partner programs are absolutely fine. In fact I think it is the right of the person to protect the trademark who fueled the Moodle engine. I have always wondered about the partner hosting programs' pricing. One can self manage a decent VPS these days for 30$ a month and a decent dedicated server for 70$ a month. These prices are going to go even lower. I guess Moodle partner program is targeted towards high cost low volume, may be it is time to consider the reverse business model considering the growing popularity of Moodle. I personally believe that Moodle is the best and will become most popular (if it is not so already smile).
In reply to Robert Brenstein

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Martin Dougiamas發表於
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You're right there are a lot of gray areas in the (post) modern Internet.

In almost all these cases use of the trademark is in fact fine!

However, it's very hard to define ALL the cases in an un-ambiguous way (new situations arise all the time!). We also have the problem of people assuming or mis-interpreting things, as you can see very clearly from discussions like these.

So if you aren't sure about a specific case, just do what it says on the license and ask at http://moodle.com/helpdesk ! It'll take you 2 minutes and you will get a clear unambiguous response in writing which you can file away!
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In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Marcus Green發表於
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"If I had a Mercedes I would certainly want to take it to an authorized dealer. But how would I find the dealer if any garage was allowed to display the big star on the roof?"

Excellent analogy!
In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Timothy Takemoto發表於

Dear Steve

I agree that Moodle was built by a community,  and therefore it seems fair to me as well that community members should be ale to benefit from moodle. Fortunately this what happens. For my own part, I get a massive software suite for free. I sell textbook that is supported by Moodle.

The idea is that different members of the community gets genuine benefits in different areas.

"From each according to his ability from each according to his need," as they say, and the moode.com team have particular abilities in the programming field and fewer needs in the area of online education, whereas many community members have abilities in areas of support say, and greater needs in the area of online education.

Equality does not mean that we all provide the exactly same contributions, or should recieve exactly the same rewards. I think. 

I think what you are saying is that the contrubitions of community members are such that the rank and file deserve a greater degree of access to the benefits, such as the ability to refer to Moodle™ as on your hosting site. Personally I think I agree with you, but I don't think that the opposing view is unethical if it is clear. 

Timothy

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In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Howard Miller發表於
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Tim,

My pragmatic view is this... I would love to be a Moodle Partner. The Moodle Partner for Scotland would do me, but I know that Sean is doing business up here so I guess I have lost my chance. And here's the thing, if four years ago (my first post in moodle.org was Feb 2003) I had the vision to see the future and had gone for it then it might have happened. But I didn't, I waited until Moodle was the "next big thing" and everybody wanted a slice of the cake and by then I had blown it.

Life's like that, those who have the vision, take the chances, get in there early when nobody else thinks it's a good idea win. Like 99% of the population, I've never been one of those guys, but I don't blame Moodle or MD for that.
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In reply to Howard Miller

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Timothy Takemoto發表於

Howard
> Life's like that, those who have the vision, take the chances, get in there
> early when nobody else thinks it's a good idea win. Like 99% of the
> population, I've never been one of those guys, but I don't blame Moodle
> or MD for that.
Hear, hear!

Appropos of nothing, I was re-thinking today, that even (and this is not the Moodle situation) were one to start an open source community, deliberately promulgate the view that one were out and out egalitarian, associate oneself with a particularly egalitarian philosophy (such as Christianity or Socialism), not mention a trademark at all, or at least do not enforce it at first, later tell the community that anyone can become a partner, and by this means form a happy volunteeristic community that helps to produce a wonderful and free product, and then only afterwards announce - "Oh and by the way, the trademark is mine and you all can't even whisper it in business". Then even under that fictious situation, who looses? Probably no one looses. As a result, everyone helps each other,  some wonderful free software is created, and the person with the vision to do all this can fly business class in perpetuity. This was and is not the Moodle situation, but even if such a community were to have existed, I can't think of any real disadvantage only real advantages.

Timothy

In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Howard Miller發表於
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Ha!

Well I'm sure being the nice guy that you are, in this mythical community you wouldn't be trying to be devious you'd just be doing everything you could to promote your software and ideas. You wouldn't be worrying about boring things like trademarks because you have a day job and are just doing this at the weekend. Then of course it all takes off and gets serious. Then you have to turn up the heat a bit - does that make you a bad person? I don't think so. Where there's success there's winners and losers. It's a big nasty world out there.
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In reply to Howard Miller

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Marcus Green發表於
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"The Moodle Partner for Scotland would do me, but I know that Sean is doing business up here so I guess I have lost my chance"

Are you sure it works like that?
In reply to Marcus Green

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Howard Miller發表於
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It's not as simple as that - at least it wasn't the last time I spoke to Martin about it. I know he had some ideas for the UK but as people's businesses are involved I'm not sure it's appropriate to discuss here (or even how current that information is). It was nothing exciting by the way! However, you will not that there have been no new Moodle Partners in the UK for quite a long time and I know that's not because there have been no applications. I don't think one guy and a brown dog operations (like I would be) fit into his view for MPs and I can entirely understand that, so no sour grapes here 微笑
In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Phil Waud發表於

Hi all

I dont usually join in these little flame war like debates, but I would like to make these points:-

  • I really like the open source software model, and the idea of moodle.com piggy backing on the success of moodle.org is just fine with me. If moodle.com drives the development costs of such a superb product, then so be it. Its a commercial reality that we all have to live with.
  • As far as I understand it, we can all use the Moodle logo (Moodle even adds it to our pages), unless we decide that we want to make money from our use of Moodle. We should then get permission (which may mean we have to share some of the money, but hey ho!) from Moodle.com because we have stepped out of the free open source world.

Does that make sense?

In a previous posting I was asking why Moodle doesnt go for Becta accreditation - I now realise that part of that accreditation involves an investigation into the financial stability of the company and as an open source enterprise there is no financial stability to investigate. Again, is that correct or just one interpretation?

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In reply to Phil Waud

Becta and trademarks (was: criticism inside the community...)

Martín Langhoff發表於
> In a previous posting I was asking why Moodle
> doesnt go for Becta accreditation - I now realise
> that part of that accreditation involves an
> investigation into the financial stability of the
> company and as an open source enterprise there is
> no financial stability to investigate.

Good point. The moodle community cannot apply for Becta accreditation -- it would not make sense anyway, as Becta is about service procurement. On the other hand, companies offering Moodle services can. I would suspect the Moodle Partners in UK would be interested in applying (PTeppic and HowToMoodle), or perhaps Moodle.com, or Catalyst.

And in terms of the trademark... I think it is a bit overblown. All successful FOSS projects protect it, and it does tend to bother some people. I understand it, but we are not alone.

Most people don't know this... you cannot (legally) call a PHP-based project PHP-Anything. I am not joking -- you are free to try to repackage Moodle as PHPLMS, and the Zend lawyers will be on your case, pronto. There used to be a blogging tool called PHP Weblog, now it is called Serendipity. And mind you, though it's a trademark concern, it's written in the PHP license, which causes a lot of trouble in other aspects -- like making it hard to share code between PHP-licensed and GPL-licensed projects.

Similarly, Mozilla is very tight about their names. In preparing the Mozilla/Firefox included in Debian, the Debian team had to make some minor changes -- which led to a bit of a tussle. The Moz team wanted final review if it was going to carry the Moz or FF name and logo, and the Debian team said that _they_ get the final review on Debian packages. The end result: mature developers understand that it's just noise and are still friends, less mature devs are fuming... and Debian ships something called IceWeasel that looks and smells just like Firefox.

And all through this, I shrug and think: it's about the code, people! And I am actually happy Steve is still using Moodle, which means that while names and logos may set us apart, running and evolving code (even with its share of bugs) pulls us together again 微笑
In reply to Martín Langhoff

Re: Becta and trademarks (was: criticism inside the community...)

Marcus Green發表於
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"I now realise that part of that accreditation involves an investigation into the financial stability of the company and as an open source enterprise there is no financial stability to investigate"

It depends on what you mean. Take the example of Linux as another another Free software enterprise. There is no financial stability to invistigate with "Linux", but there is plenty to look into with RedHat or SuSe. By the same token there would be a financial position of Moodle.com as some indication of the future and direction of the Moodle product.

It seems to me that one of the things that differentiates Moodle from many other free software projects is that the high quality software side of things is backed by a business model as well.


In reply to David Delgado

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

Steve Hyndman發表於

Although I didn't start this thread, I am very glad it was started...thanks David.

I think it has served a very good purpose to hopefully close a long "misunderstanding". I've posted a note on my www.moodleus.org site and hope to be able to close that site down soon.

Steve

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In reply to David Delgado

Re: MOODLE CRITICISM inside the Moodle Community...

David Delgado發表於
Well, I started this discussion, then I had to go off the office for a few weeks and, when I come back, I see more than 40 answers! It's gonna take a long time till I read them all! 吐舌頭 I am happy we are in such a cool community that makes its own criticism, as I told Eloy. 眨眼

Thanks you all! 微笑