Re: Attention Elluminate Users! continued

Re: Attention Elluminate Users! continued

by Bryan Williams -
Number of replies: 21
Nicole - You are probably a really great archaeologist but your post suggests you don't know beans about business, particularly much about how successful open source projects are managed today. The fact is that most open source software projects that people are able to use on a daily basis and that have a vibrant development team (like Moodle), don't rely completly on the donate button to stay viable. If this were the case Apache, Linux, MySQL, PHP, Firefox and many other programs just wouldn't be around.

IBM alone reported earnings on their Linux related sales last year of almost $3 billion dollars. Now just who do you think pays part of Linus Torvalds salary so Linux remains a viable alternative to Microsoft? Additionally, most of the top-dogs in the Linux project actually work for commercial vendors like Red Hat, Novel and Oracle - who pay their salaries so they can work on the project full time. Do these commercial companies benefit... you betcha! Does the world benefit... you be the judge of that.

...but I think that you can't impose the traditional business model on open source so easily.

I find it astounding that you would even suggest to Martin what he can or can't do in terms of insuring the financial management and well being of Moodle. Why not leave all that up to him to worry about? As a business manager for over 30 years I can tell you that Martin is more than a pretty face and a cool programmer. He is an excellent manager of people and resources.

For the drama queens: wink Martin is also a Moodle partner, has a payroll to meet each month (and family to support). He is self sufficient in his business practice, no Moodle partner pays his salary! He flys coach when traveling, does not drink expensive bourbon or smoke Cuban cigars and drives an ordinary family sedan (to the office each day a few blocks from his house - which his staff thinks is hilarious). He has a talented and beautiful wife name Sarah who is an operatic singer, and two wonderful angels have come to live with them; his daughter Tui and younger son Tommy. He works incredibly long hours (we are sometimes on Skype at 2:00 AM his time) and religously supports the other Moodle partners who are demonstrating results in their practice.

I on the other hand do like expensive bourbon and will smoke a Cuban if I can get my hands on one. I have a bit further to drive to the office each day than Martin,wink and also have an average family sedan. I have a staff and payroll to meet each month, just like Martin and other partners. This (commitment) is what Martin wants to see in his partners, no matter what country they are in. I have worked very closely with the Canadian Moodle partner for the past 2 1/2 years and we have done some cool stuff together. Here in the US one of my staff members has been nationally recognized for what they do with Moodle (training) for our company and I'm very proud of her accomplishment. We all work long hours and try hard to provide the highest level of support we know Martin expects of us.

Recently it has become fashionable at moodle.org for a few participants to pile on Martin (and lately me) for what they perceive as unfairly wanting to manage how the Moodle copyright is protected and/or commercial services are promoted. I personally don't care that someone who doesn't have the stones to use their real name (while publicly attacking me) rants in a forum, or a disgruntled Moodler from the academic side of life goes off on me with a lecture explaining how things are in the real business world (sleepy). I think the community needs to take a few deep breaths and get back to the space where Martin is appreciated and respected for giving us Moodle, and left alone on this issue of commercial services.

So far, here are a few practical guidelines on this issue that have come up since last summer when it surfaced.
  • You may not use the Moodle logo on your website without obtaining Martin's permission to do so. This is a copyright violation.
  • You may offer whatever Moodle services you want on your website provided you do not violate the copyright, and provided you do not state these are authorized services.
  • Martin is the sole person that can say who provides authorized Moodle services. Right now that is reserved for Moodle partners only.
  • In general, you may not use the forums at Moodle.org as a place to advertise your business offerings. Forums are non-commercial in nature and the course moderator at Moodle.org has the discretion to remind users this practice is not welcome.
  • You are invited to apply to the Moodle partners program. The application process can take some time so patience is in order. Far more applications are turned down than accepted. Martin trys to determine an applicants overall knowledge of Moodle, business practices and ability to deliver commercial services the Moodle Trust can depend on. Each Moodle partner contributes 10% from their commercial services to the Moodle Trust.
  • You can reapply to the Moodle partners program 12 months after your application was turned down. There is no stigma attached to having been turned down once.
  • Becoming a Particularly Helpful Moodler is a good step toward becoming a Moodle partner, but is no guarantee an application will be accepted. This designation is for someone that has shown a willingness to consistently (at least 90 days) help Moodle users with their problems.
Average of ratings: Fairly cool (1)
In reply to Bryan Williams

Re: Attention Elluminate Users!

by Frances Bell -
Bryan,
Your post is couched in very strong terms. Are you happy for 'Moodlers' to ask questions about partners and their relationships with Moodle.org?
My use of Moodle is pretty small-scale but I do and have used Moodle partners for hosting services (thanks to Andrea Bicciolo and Sean Keogh, both of whom are visible on Moodle.org and have given excellent service IMHO) so I don't rely on the donate button (but am grateful to those who click it).
In the case of the partners I have used (and for all I know you too) the link between them and Moodle.org is evident. You mention that Martin is a partner, well he is very evident in Moodle.org big grin. I am not sure that is the case for all Moodle partners. I have visited the sites of several Moodle partners and looked for 'names' that I can link back to Moodle.org but this has not always been possible. You say that "This designation is for someone that has shown a willingness to consistently (at least 90 days) help Moodle users with their problems." What happens next? IS there an expectation that this willingness continues?
Please don't interpret this post as an attack on Moodle. I am totally committed to Moodle and that is why I have agreed to facilitate in this space as a volunteer. Moodle partners are clearly key to the success of Moodle and to the achievements of the goals of the Moodle venture. I hope that they are prepared to engage with the rest of the Moodle community and offer some transparency about their relationship with that community.
BTW, who are the Drama Queens?
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Attention Elluminate Users!

by elearning edu -

Frances,

You are the lead of this open forum and you yourself expressed the tone and the toxity of comments on few of the moodlers as strong with acidity.  He picked up few moodlers and I am one, I understand, from the tag "a disgruntled Moodler from the academic side of life goes off on me with a lecture explaining how things are in the real business world (sleepy).  In open forums such as this people (who claim thirty years or so business experience and high life style)needs civility of expression rather than being authoritarian.  I never did a leccture to him instead I got the blunt attack from him. Typical 'blaming the victim' syndrome. The word disgruntled is of serious connotations and the user must be cautious about its implication and dutybound to give an explanation.

Points for your consideration:

If my posting in the business uses course as a community member is a blunder his lengthy post in Moodle uses forum  broadcating his website is bigger.

There is a distinction between moodle.org and moodle.com  Moodle.com is closed and previleged.  Moodle.org is open.  Partners alone authorised to post theri business and others who are competent proscribed  from posting in business uses course needs clarification and consensus

Partners advertise their banners in Moodle.org and the community is capable of excercising the option.  Though there is a territorial limitation the banner is not mentioneing the territory allotted to the partner.

Moodle community members volunteer and spend their time for the furtherance of the Moodle.  I did a translation and I helped  translating Moodle in other languages.  Similarly many members develop, test and deploy new modules and blocks. Their opensource resources are commercially exploited by the partners to make money and maintain either catholicity like Martin or high style by Bryan.  When a rigid stand is taken will it not lead to exploitation of volunteerism to merchantilism?

Martin can help by way of announcing that Bryan is his spoke person since many postings are with the statement that Martin must not have meant ....  It may look odd and shilly to Martin to spent time to intervene but a long silence will imply that he is in agrrement with all the statements made.  Few moodlers I understand received PM from Bryan and they are afraid of bringing it to your attention.

The need of the hour is transparency and respect for the freedom and dignity of the moodle community.

When the partnership process is examined it is evident that there is no transparency.  Any time a partner may be selected (most of the time not so) and partnership can become null and void.  Rejection in not a stigma and they can appy after 12 weeks.  No mention is made about the authority who is mandated to hire and fire.  The problem lies here.  We do not know who is the real authority in moodle?

I have a responsibility to support my clients and I heavily invested in resources.  Even I registered websites in the name moodleonline and moodle india and my server at Atlanta is named moodle.  I offer moodle courses.  I engage developers and pay the money.  I am a retired professor put all my terminal benefits into moodle business.  My clients say we do not mind whether you are in moodle or not please continue your support.  What will be the assurance for people like me and my clients?

Frances You are to protect us and uphold the freedom and dignity of moodlers from the moodle lounge from the attacks of the powerful.

Nagarajan

Average of ratings: -
In reply to elearning edu

Re: Attention Elluminate Users!

by Frances Bell -
Thanks Nagarajan,
I don't have a light sabremoz-screenshot-1.jpg but I will do my best to ensure that the are no elephants in this Moodle room. Regarding the norms of discussion in this space, this was logged as an issue see MDLSITE-50.
Martin commented on this issue "I totally agree this is going to be necessary, but I hope that those in the new Social course on moodle.org (http://moodle.org/course/view.php?id=55) will be able to sort this out in there.

Perhaps they can come up with something that we can add to the home page or http://moodle.org/mod/resource/view.php?id=1361) as a general set of guidelines."
So we have a responsibility to come up with some suggestions and I intend that we will do this through thorough debate, asking difficult questions and answering them, whilst treating each other with respect. I have made a note of one of Bryan's injunctions above "In general, you may not use the forums at Moodle.org as a place to advertise your business offerings. Forums are non-commercial in nature and the course moderator at Moodle.org has the discretion to remind users this practice is not welcome." I am sure that will be one of the issues we'll discuss.
However, I think that we need to first decide on the privacy / openness issue for Moodle Lounge as this impacts on our norms and policies, in this thread.
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Attention Elluminate Users!

by elearning edu -

Thanks Frances,

From the lighter side:

Please do not prevent all the elephants.  I am from a country where we use elephants for extremely opposite purposes.  We worship elephant as the first God in charge of written word.  Equally we train elephants to beg in the stree to support the high living style of Mahaut (mentor).  In my language there are sixteen words to denote elephants.  We attribute extra ordinar memory to elephant.  I knoe one moodler is offering a moodle course for memory with a name superelephant

On the agenda side

Principle 1:

When impressions are posted as expressions here no room will be there for undermining a profession such as

Professors

... probably you are the good professor of Archeology (Do we die for a certification?)

disgruntled ... academic ... real (italics not mine) business

No room will be there and strict to the sense for undermining statements on gender

... QUEENS

Nagarajan

Average of ratings: -
In reply to elearning edu

Re: Attention Elluminate Users!

by N Hansen -
Oh, and for the record. I am not an archaeologist. I've never dug anything out of the ground in my life. I worked on archaeological projects as an objects registrar, an editor and a data manager, not as a digger. Archaeology is a field that requires people with a variety of specialized technical skills.
Average of ratings: -
In reply to elearning edu

Re: Attention Elluminate Users!

by N Hansen -
Moodle community members volunteer and spend their time for the furtherance of the Moodle. I did a translation and I helped translating Moodle in other languages. Similarly many members develop, test and deploy new modules and blocks. Their opensource resources are commercially exploited by the partners to make money and maintain either catholicity like Martin or high style by Bryan. When a rigid stand is taken will it not lead to exploitation of volunteerism to merchantilism?

Exactly, and Martin and most of the other programmers understand and appreciate that fact. Just yesterday I spent a couple hours testing 1.7 and reporting bugs to Martin and even though he is busy, he did throw in at least one "thanks" along the way. It's a small thing, receiving thanks, but it's a small thing that goes a long way. People like Martin, Petr and Tim Hunt (to name a few) appreciate that some of us don't contribute money to Moodle, but contribute our time and expertise without financial compensation instead toward making Moodle a more attractive and stable product, which in turn allows the Moodle partners to make money. Lest someone should think I am simply an ignorant female academic who only comes here to play drama queen, then I suggest you take a trip over to the bug tracker and see how active I have been there. I've reported 377 issues, only 3 short of the number Martin himself has reported. There are lots of us who participate here at Moodle like that-in the bug tracker, in the Using Moodle and other courses, in the documentation, in contributing code, without financial compensation. That's another thing that makes the open source business model a little different and is an important part of it that isn't there simply to be endured.
Average of ratings: Cool (1)
In reply to elearning edu

Re: Attention Elluminate Users!

by Don Quixote -
"Moodle community members volunteer and spend their time for the furtherance of the Moodle. I did a translation and I helped translating Moodle in other languages. Similarly many members develop, test and deploy new modules and blocks. Their opensource resources are commercially exploited by the partners to make money and maintain either catholicity like Martin or high style by Bryan. When a rigid stand is taken will it not lead to exploitation of volunteerism to merchantilism?"

Good point, Nagarajan approve

Reminds me some IT guys I have met long ago (not related to Moodle!), who were openly proud that "they can make money by using enthusiastic volunteers, too silly to get it". Another guy once told me "You know, as long as someone thinks he is important, he will do a lot - if not anything - for you." I don't think that such a disgusting attitude is everywhere, but it does exist and should make everyone a lot more cautious. And that's why projects should be transparent and well balanced between the involved parties.

And let us not forget: Whoever produces services, products and software, by whatever business model. Certain folks like hardware manufacterer always win and have always an interest that the hype is as big as possible. ("Don't start digging for gold in a gold rush! Produce shovels!" big grin) Just as an add-on...
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Bryan Williams

Re: Attention Elluminate Users!

by N Hansen -
Bryan-I'm not quite sure your oddly defensive attack is worthy of any response at all. But I'm going to stick to simply clarifying what you seem to have missed completely or wrongly assumed about my post. Nowhere in the post was I suggesting how Martin should run his business, nor did I claim to know how open source business works, nor was I suggesting in any way that Moodle relies on the donate button, nor am I disgruntled about Moodle (but I am disgruntled about the behavior of a few in this forum).

As far as I can tell, open source business is a quite new approach and one in which the best practices are still probably not fully worked out.

I am no open source business expert but the one thing I think anyone can figure out is that those who benefit from open source are not necessarily the ones who are providing the funding (or the freely shared expertise and help) to make it work. Hundreds of people download Moodle every day and most probably contribute nothing back. I'm a Firefox customer, I'm using their browser right now, but what have I ever contributed to them? I sometime press the button to submit a report when the program crashes, that's the total sum of my contribution to them. I use other open source software and don't even contribute anything to those programs. The customers for open source are not necessarily the ones paying the bills or contributing the code. That's what I was comparing to archaeology.

In short, I made some personal observations, and asked a QUESTION. A question to which I admitted I don't have the answer myself but was just curious what Martin's perspective or anyone else's perspective might be. It was a question about open source in general, not necessarily Moodle in particular. I thought asking questions was part of learning, but perhaps you have another opinion? They say curiosity killed the cat, so I guess I should get busy looking for a cat avatar this time...

Average of ratings: -
In reply to N Hansen

Re: Attention Elluminate Users!

by A. T. Wyatt -
An image of Bastet might be appropriate? smile (Well, I hope I got that right. I have always loved reading about ancient Egypt, but you are a real expert!)

atw

ps--Am I just totally crazy, or is there something wrong with the threads? I cannot see any of these latest threads unless I use flat, newest first. If I use threaded, or if I use the nested view, these posts (beginning with http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=56488&parent=259010) are simply not there!

I think there is something wrong. I filed a bug report: MDLSITE-64
Average of ratings: -
In reply to A. T. Wyatt

Re: Attention Elluminate Users!

by Frances Bell -
Apparently, there was a problem because someone deleted a post, and the thread was split to preserve it. I know that Tim T was having the same problem seeing Bryan's post.
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Attention Elluminate Users!

by elearning edu -

I was the one posted twice and deleted one without knowing the repercussion.

Nagarajan

Average of ratings: -
In reply to N Hansen

Re: Attention Elluminate Users!

by Bryan Williams -
Nicole,

There is what I preceive a mix of apples and oranges in the various poster's comments that have made a response to my earlier post. Each seems intent to frame a response that suits them best. Against better judgement (I think I am normally in possession of) I am going to further participate in this discussion.smile

I see the mood of this thread connected with what began last summer with Steve Hyndman and his post over the "how, who and what" of commercial Moodle services. That all ended badly in my opinion since a valuable member of the community seems to have left us. My post last week announcing the integration of Moodle with a commercial program hit a nerve with a few moodlers I'm guessing. Do you think unresolved feelings over the bigger issue have resurfaced (asking nicely)? I value your opinion!

Last year Moodle was integrated with the commercial HarvestRoad Hive DMS, and very soon Moodle will run under both Oracle and Microsoft SQL. These specialized projects usually come about because a number of organizations require this of Moodle. Often a volunteer developer within the community isn't available so someone reaches into their pocket and funds the development. Once completed, all within the community are able to use these features without paying a nickel, just like any other contribution someone makes to Moodle. Of course that does not mean one can use the commercial software for free, but the ability to use such software within Moodle will be there.

What is getting mixed up here I feel is the clear distinction between the open source Moodle project, and the decision by the project lead and copyright owner (Martin) to help organizations who were asking him for more direct support services, like those I have mentioned. This demand along with a need to tend the home fires lead to creation of the Moodle partners program. The structure gave Martin a framework to control the quality of services many organizations are willing to pay for, and which he would lend his name to. The Moodle Trust structure also gave him a framework in which to deal with commercial ISV's knocking on his door.

As far as the open source Moodle project side of the equation I for one recognize you as a luminary in the community. I have seen you help many people for quite some time now. You also manage to contribute time to the grunt work of bug hunting which is so valuable. Most people don't want to do this work. I am publicly acknowledging my debt of gratitude for everything you have done. Should we ever meet at a MoodleMoot I would be honored to buy you dinner so I can get to know you.

As far as the commercial side of the equation I am puzzled by both Andreas and Nagarjan's behavior and public attacks on me. With Andreas he has chosen to try to do this anonymously, which I don't find to be a very honorable action. With Nargarajan things spun out of control when I politely asked him to not promote his commercial services on the boards in a course which I am a moderator. Another Moodle partner made a similar comment to him. He sent me a private email complaining that I had maligned him, and I sent him back a private message saying that was not my intention nor desire to upset him, that I considered him a friend. I reminded him that we had discussed this very issue on other occasions. Without asking me whether it was ok to share our private emails he used this correspondence in an attack against me. I don't find this to be a very honorable action. How do feel such things should be handled? I would value your advice!
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Bryan Williams

Re: Attention Elluminate Users!

by N Hansen -
Bryan-Thanks for your kind words. I think tensions are running high here in general after the deleted thread issue and not only people but issues are getting jumbled up too much, and people are sensitive because they feel they are being blamed for things that don't have anything to do with them.

I for one have no beef with how the partner program is run because it doesn't affect me in any way nor do I feel it is an obligation that I know all the ins and outs of it. Every business has to have its business secrets. But I do know there are others who feel there should be more transparency in how it works, not just potential partners who feel this way, but others who are just Moodle users. That's their prerogative to feel that way and it's an issue you as a partner can't just ignore as much as you might want to do so because it may generate animosity. The only comment I would like to make about the partner program, and this is just my own personal view, is that it is priced in such a way as to not be aiming for the whole potential market, but only a select portion of it. You have to admit yourself that not everyone is your potential customer. Obviously this was a business decision in itself and I am sure there are reasons for it but as others have mentioned there are countries and institutions where these prices are beyond reach, and there are some who have questioned whether this is good policy too. That's their prerogative to feel that way but it is also an issue you can't ignore.

I can't comment on your interactions with Andreas and Nagarajan except to say I am sure you have much more insight into why and on what terms they left the partner program and in particular you. As a complete outsider, all I can say is that it seems you (or the program) has left them with lingering bad feelings. That's another issue you have to deal with.

I am not even going to begin to tell you what I think the right way to deal with these issues is. But the issues are out there, they are being thought about and talked about, publicly and privately. The only thing I can say is that these issues probably won't go away by ignoring them, or by dictating to people. Criticism isn't fun to receive but I think reading the criticism is a golden opportunity to learn some things that might help you improve your business in a way that is to your own benefit.
Average of ratings: -
In reply to N Hansen

Re: Attention Elluminate Users!

by Frances Bell -
The only thing that I would add to this thoughtful reply, with reference to the question that Bryan asks, is to say that when we do have a discussion about guidelines I think that privacy is an issue that is likely to come up (see http://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDLSITE-50 ) as well as advertising in forums (by Moodle partners and others).
Average of ratings: -
In reply to N Hansen

Re: Attention Elluminate Users!

by Bryan Williams -
Nicole and others, thank you for the feedback! This has helped me to see how some in the community view the Moodle partners program. I had no idea these feelings existed and I'm sure it comes as a surprise to other partners who might be reading these posts. And I agree with your comment that tensions are running high. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail before long. I have known several people connected with this discussion for quite a while and hope to see things get back to a friendly space soon.

I am wondering what others would like to know about the Moodle partners program that I can help provide information on. Things are fairly transparent in that all partner's services are listed on the Moodle.com site. Each Moodle partner is an independent business and not all partners offer a full range of services. A few in fact are very specialized. We sign an annual contract (and pay a fee) that spells out our relationship with the Moodle Trust.

The Moodle Trust is the entity that overseas all things Moodle. Partners pay a percentage of their income derived from Moodle services and that amount is 10%. Martin wants each partner to succeed and bends over backwards to help us. In return there is an expectation that a partner will produce results within the country they operate their business. Here are a few other details that may be of interest:
  • There are no senior or junior partners. Martin does not play favorites with ANY partner no matter how much they contribute, as far as I know
  • Some partners are busier than others but overall 2006 has seen a significant uptick in activity for everyone
  • Partners establish their own pricing for the services they offer, Martin has no say about this
  • There are about 40 Moodle partners worldwide right now. One of the newest partners is from South African and one is from Russia. I am really pleased we finally have someone on the African continent and hope to have the opportunity to help. One of the UK partners is currently in Kenya working with a new University and I think he will be pleased to get added help from our new SA partner. I also look forward to maybe getting a chance to practice my incredibly rusty Russian. smile
  • We have our own accounting system to help us track clients, invoices and pay our partner royalties
  • All combined partners are providing Moodle services to about 1000 client organizations worldwide, some very big and some very small. This is at least a 50% increase over this time last year I believe.
  • Two of the partners (LAMS & Havest Road) have their programs integrated with Moodle
  • The Moodle partners site is a collection of forums much like Moodle.org, divided into helpful categories. We have access on the site to the official Moodle logo's which we are entitled to use in our business practice.
If there are other questions that you would like answered that do not violate the confidential agreement Moodle partners observe about each others business I will try to answer them. I hope everyone understands that the Moodle partners program is not some kind of club of fat-cats trying to lord over the kingdom. Mostly we are so busy we aren't able to participate at Moodle.org as often as we use to. I for one deeply miss this companionship. Finally, as Martin has stated we have ZERO influence over what direction he will take Moodle in. That is, as it has been for as long as I have been active in the community, entirely driven by what the community wants from Moodle.wink
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Bryan Williams

Re: Attention Elluminate Users!

by elearning edu -

Hi Bryan,

It is not my business to attack anyone particularly your goodself.  This is only a misunderstanding on your part that I use business uses course to promote my business. My misunderstanding is what I studied about the business uses course

This course is for discussing and sharing ideas about using Moodle for

  • paid courses
    where entrepreneurial businesses provide courses to customers in return for payment
  • corporate education

    where companies are implementing a site for internal courses
Whether partner or non-partner the ultimate objecive is to satisfy the needs of the members of moodle community and this may be achievable by anyone who cares and have the required capacity.

Partners have a limited role due to territorial limitation.  People like me are willing to go to unchartered and unrepresented part of the globe to help people who cannot afford the services of Moodle partners. Please understand my sincerity and commitment to take moodle to those who are on the weaker side of the digital divide.

The whole issue was on a request from a Moodler from Latin America where dollar costs three time the value of the local currency.  Their interest is to use moodle at an affordable cost or free.  Ultimately I offered a free space for him to use moodle.  The moodler was from a University and only academic like me can understand problem of people from developing countries willing to use Moodle.

Bryan honestly speaking I do not find a correalation between your thoughts and words.  Genuine thoughts are ruined by inappropriate words.  In fact I did an errand job in India for you to coordinate with SPARK who is known to you.  I did the work for you and ultimately I influenced them to integrate their SPARK product with Moodle.  (They have copleted) They are very well in business and it is a $ 5 million company doing business for USA from India.  Addressing them as my friend and accusing a company offering service to fortune 500 companies as simply disappeared may not be a correct expression.  Today many in US are unaware that we do US business from India doing the entire sales and marketing creating an illusion the we are in USA.  Today's business is virtual.

In my mail I told you and repeat here "If you do not want me to be a member of Moodle community I am prepared to leave"

Nagarajan

(Edited by Martin Dougiamas - original submission Monday, 23 October 2006, 12:38 PM)   - Fixed some formatting

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Bryan Williams

Re: Attention Elluminate Users!

by Don Quixote -
Hi Bryan,

"With Andreas he has chosen to try to do this anonymously, ..."

Frankly, I needed to reread this three times... Are you kidding? My records of old posts on "Don Quixote" contain everything I have ever written, also in my real name! Do you (seriously) think that I would have used this account and haven't opened a real anonymous account, if I really wanted to be anonymous? Without using a proxy server, blabla and other stuff?

"which I don't find to be a very honorable action."

Well, apart of that fact that I don't think I really did it anonymously (just confusing google, rss feeds,... a bit and having a bit fun with this Don Quixote stuff...), it would astonish me that my critics would be labelled as "inhonorable". Or is it really only the way how you perceived it? I do hope so. Otherwise I would need to add another post to this topic alone...

Don Quixote

PS:
I rarely check the emails of the Moodle forums or the forum itself. So please don't expect immediate answers. Don Quixote is much rarer available than Andreas was wink ... The disgusting irony however seems to be much the same.

PPS:
Don't be too worried about my split personality. It's restricted to the virtual...
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Bryan Williams

Moodle Partnership, Meritocracy, and Democracy

by Timothy Takemoto -

Hi Bryan

Since you mention it, I think I should point out that I know a guy who I think might not agree with some of the details or the nuance of your post:

Bryan Wrote

Far more applications are turned down than accepted. Martin trys to determine an applicants overall knowledge of Moodle, business practices and ability to deliver commercial services the Moodle Trust can depend on. Each Moodle partner contributes 10% from their commercial services to the Moodle Trust.

I believe Martin Dougiamas has written somewhere, similarly, that anyone *can* be come a Moodle Partner.

I.e. If you have the ability and the patience (takes a 'few month') then you can become a Moodle Partner. Becoming a Moodle Partner is meritocratic and democratic. It is open to all with the ability. 

This is a very nice feeling. All those of us that are not offering commercial services can think to ourselves, "I could become a Moodle Partner too if I make the commitment".

There is another consideration.

The application for Moodle Partnership also takes into consideration the number of other Moodle Partners that already exist within a geograpical area, and the negative impact of increased competition upon their livelihood.

Thus if you are in Lichtenstien and you want to become a Moodle Partner, but there are already a couple there, then it will be very difficult for you to become a Moodle Partner too.

This is entirely sound business practice and has clear, caring, positive motives and results. The Moodle Partner's businesses flourish, revenues go towards funding more moodle development. Moodle Partners can live (although many of them may not be able to afford cars yet).

This sort of franchising (if that is the proper term) is however a limit upon meritocracy and democracy. Basically, it is not democractic or meritocratic or at the limit, equal.

Perhaps it could be argued that this sort of 'drop of oligarchy' is the condition for democracy. Perhaps if Moodle Partners were not protected in this way, then their would be no point in becoming one?

On another thread I talk about the advantages of monarchy. The disadvantage (if it is one) is that people have a tendency to want to be the monarch too. Hard cheese? Hmm...an aspiring moodle partner in Lichtenstien might not agree.

Timothy

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In reply to Bryan Williams

Re: Attention Elluminate Users! continued

by Don Quixote -
"As a business manager for over 30 years I can tell you..."

Bryan, just take care a bit, that you don't confuse the fact that someone doesn't like something or doesn't agree with something and the situation that someone doesn't understand it.

It is always easy to say that someone "doesn't understand it" if he/she actually doesn't like it.

doesn't like <> doesn't understand big grin

What you said about the efforts of Martin, the Moodle partners or the PHM's: I totally agree. And this was part of my general critical thoughts I have posted. (I can't speak for anyone else).

However, please do not spread the impression, that only you, the partners and Martin are making efforts in their everyday life and have the right to make a living. It sounded a bit like this to me. Btw, your attitude towards academia seems to be strange, even a bit disturbing. I hope you are not overestimating your own value in society in comparison to them. I admit however, that such attitudes are currently seen as very cool and modern.

One of my biggest concerns is that we are almost globally in a state where mistrust, egoism, intransparency, inbalance and the like prevail. Those things are not new, for sure, but it is currently considerably increasing. And that's not cool at all for me.

Do you allow me to continue to post as Don Quixote? It has just become a personal eccentricity.

Don Quixote
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In reply to Bryan Williams

Re: Attention Elluminate Users! continued

by Manish Verma -
The business model for open source projects sometimes looks even more difficult for me to understand than some freeby business model (Google offers freebies and is extremely profitable and is just one example). The idea to offer an open source project as service looks like the primary way to generate revenues. Some partners who provide the services and contribute to the project financially are official partners. Also, the people who want to offer similar services are also free to do so without advertising project name ("unofficial" partners).

If an "unofficial" partner contributes code, then it is true that official partners may get financial benefit but at the same time the contributor gets benefit from it as well may be for personal use or for the clients' use. A percentage of this financial benefit goes to the original project as well.

Bryan, as far as my understanding goes the first bulleted point you have made concerns the people who are providing Moodle services and does not concern the end user. Many of the Moodle installation themes by default contain the Moodle logo.

Just a thought, "Why can't some funds be generated from Goodle Adsense in moodle.org"? Moodle.org looks too clean to me wink.

Giving respect to the people who have contributed immensely in the project is the least one can do to support the project.

Manish.
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