Moodle in English: Moodle Trademark Email??

Hello Moodlers,

I just received the email below and was wondering if anyone else has received anything similiar. I operate a small counsulting business at kentuckyclassroom.com and provide Moodle services. I don't pretend to "be Moodle", but if this email is "real", I guess unless I'm a Moodle partner I'm not allowed to print the word Moodle on my site? You can see in the footer of my site, I clearly state that Moodle is a registered trademark and is not affliated with my company. I hope this is a fake email....if not, I'll be typing more about this.

------------------------------------------------

Dear Fellow Moodler,

You have been sent this notice because of an apparent Moodle trademark conflict.

You may freely refer to Moodle in your website in most instances, however, you may
not do this if you are providing commercial services AND charging fees for these
services. 

The word "Moodle" and the Moodle logo are legally protected trademarks.  The use of
Moodle trademarks is restricted to Moodle Partners when advertising commercial
services that relate to Moodle.  Moodle services include activities such as Moodle
hosting, consulting, maintenance, and training.

It's come to our attention that your site:

 http://www.kentuckyclassroom.com/

is using the Moodle trademark without permission.

Please remove references to Moodle commercial services from your website immediately.

If you are intersted in finding out how to become a Moodle Partner, please visit
http://moodle.com/partners/requirements/

Thank you.

___________________________________
Michael Blake
Moodle.com

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martin Dougiamas - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 2:10 AM

Yes, Steve, you are advertising Moodle Hosting on your site (which uses my trademark) but that is a privilege I only give to Moodle Partners that contribute to Moodle development and the livelihood of people pouring their lives into Moodle.

None of this is new, in fact I know I've discussed this with you directly in the past, perhaps you've forgotten.

Please read the license that has always been in the copies of Moodle you are using, and contact me directly at moodle.com if you have a problem.

http://docs.moodle.org/en/License

This is nothing to do with the GPL, it's about the brand.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Steve Hyndman - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 3:04 AM

Interesting position you are taking here Martin. We have a saying in the US about not "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

So your position is that I must go through my consulting site (kentuckyclassroom.com) and remove the word "Moodle" from every page and this will satisfy you? If I change all references of Moodle to something else (like LMS) then you will be happy? Give me 10 minutes and I'll comply...please let me know if this isn't good enough.

I can understand you protecting your trademark and company, but even Microsoft doesn't go to this extent. Imagine Bill Gates telling everyone who does MS Office training, that they can't mention the word "PowerPoint" on their for-profit training site unless they provide a "kick-back" to Microsoft.

In my opinion, you're really going overboard here which may cost you far more in negative PR in the future than it will ever be worth.

By the way, I (like many others) have poured a lot of my life (time) into this project as well. Just look at the posts on these forums over the past few years. I did some work for a client and instead of them paying me, I asked them to donate to Moodle.org in my name...which they did. I manage several Moodle sites for free and have taught hundreds of people to use this software...again for free.

On a side note, I have made less than $5,000 over the past two years doing Moodle stuff for profit...I've contributed far more than that in free services.

I'm going to go to my kentuckyclassroom.com site now and make those changes. I'll post back here once I'm done and I would appreciate you letting me know if you are satisfied. I guess from now on I'll just have to refer to Moodle as "An LMS"...whose real name "shall not be spoken" for fear of trademark infringement wink .

Steve

Average of ratings: Very cool (2)

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by N Hansen - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 3:31 AM

I think Steve makes a valid point. It's similar to the MCSE that one can get from Microsoft. I don't know what kind of PR move this is, but I'm not so sure you can legally defend such a position. Anyone can legally say they service computers installed with Microsoft, but only those who have passed the tests can claim MCSE. I thought that Moodle Partner and MCSE were similar concepts. Perhaps what you need to trademark is the term "Moodle Partner." But is it wrong for a company to say that they offer hosting that is compatible with Moodle specs? What about companies using Fantastico that want to advertise the fact that Moodle is available? I don't know enough about what it says on Steve's site, but this sounds like a slippery slope to me.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martin Dougiamas - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 6:15 AM

Steve, I value your opinion but please get the facts straight if you're going to post publically about this.

Nothing has changed recently, it's been this way for two years at least. The license document asks you to ask permission to use Moodle's brand to make money from Moodle services and you haven't.

Comparing Moodle to Microsoft doesn't make sense and to do so is misleading. They sell their software, Moodle doesn't.

The ONLY business model we have is services, and those services are protected by a trademark, the same as many companies do. Without that there is less reason for companies to become Moodle Partners. Without some control, 1000 companies can offer Moodle services at will and I (and Moodle) get NOTHING from it.

None of this applies to just talking about Moodle. Nothing stops you from using Moodle to run a business. Nothing stops you from using Moodle at any time. It's just the brand.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by N Hansen - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 6:26 AM

Martin-I think part of the misunderstanding here may be due to the fact that what you are calling a trademark is actually called a service mark here in the US. While it provides basically the same protection, it is applied to services, rather than goods. Here in the US, when we think of a trademark, we are talking about products, not services.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martin Dougiamas - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 8:56 AM

Yes, it's actually a service mark, thanks.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Mike Duggan - Tuesday, 4 January 2011, 9:20 AM

Yep, big difference. Our website has a bunch of SEC filings and you can type in servicemark or trademark to get a feel for the difference.

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Re: general US info: Moodle Trademark??

by Chris Collman - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 12:36 PM

Hi,
This is for general US information. It is a subject that has fancinated me for over 20 years.

I was in the garmet trade and industry people considered my company was a fashion orientated business. Every season we came out with a new version. We made flannel sleepwear and nursing garments for mothers etc out of natural fibers. Once somebody used "my" name "Fit for Two". Another time I (as GM and part owner) sold defective products made for them with their labels slashed or removed in our Outlet store. It was clear the garments were defective, the issue was that I posted my customer's catalog page above the rack with their price circled without their permission. Both of these are probably trademark violations. Certainly both were copyright violations.

First website I got a hit on says something like: Trademarks are know as distinctive marks (but do not describe features of the goods or services).These marks consist of made-up words, ( such as Intel or Microsoft called "coined marks" or "fanciful marks"). A Trademark or service mark can also consist of letters, numbers, a sound, a smell, a color, a product shape, or any other non-functional but distinctive aspect of a product or service that tends to promote and distinguish it in the marketplace. The second site on my hit list says that unlike other countries, trademarks don't have to be registered in the US. I could go on but the internet will reveal similar results.

There is an interesting difference between US copyright, patent and trademark definations. That is why lawyers get the big money. I was told that I could copyright (instead of patent, an expensive process) a garment, just like one of my customer's copyrighted their catalog, or an author a book.

I can hear my sister (who gets paid the big bucks) telling me it is not that simple. My two pence is that simple, uses less words than the big bucks but is just a free opinion with little value in a US court of law

Martin has a US trademark and he can set his rules about the use of the name Moodle.

The GNU license is a different kettle of fish.

Chris

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Re: general US info: Moodle Trademark??

by N Hansen - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 6:38 PM

Here's how I understand it. I get the impression it is something like Roto-Rooter (a company that provides plumbing and drain unblocking services). I could set up shop, using a lot of the same tools, equipment (because the companies making these sell them to anyone, just as Moodle can be obtained by anyone) and maybe even techniques that Roto-Rooter uses, but I can't call my services Roto-Rooter and perform those same services under that name. I could perform them calling myself the Plumbing Man though. I could probably start a catering company and say that my lunch sandwich delivering process was called Roto-Rooter because it wouldn't interfere with the Roto-Rooter plumbing services and they probably didn't think to register Roto-Rooter for catering services.

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Re: general US info: Moodle Trademark??

by Steve Hyndman - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 8:16 PM

Just for the record:

1. My company was (is) clearly called KentuckyClassroom.com.

2. I offered (among other things) Moodle services through my company and recognized the word as a trademark and the fact that my company was not affiliated with Moodle.

Now, I simply offer LMS services and all seems to be fine.

There is a business down the road from my house called Joe's Auto Repair. He offers service on Fords and Chevrolets...he doesn't pretend to be them or their "authorized service provider", he is just making an honest living servicing those vehicles.

Steve

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Re: general US info: Moodle Trademark??

by Chris Collman - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 8:41 PM

Yes, that is the theory in a nutshell. Good example.

And timely, as I was woken up this morning by the sound of a loud engine on one of those septic pumping truck at work at my neighbor's motel. "Stay back or I'll Flush" was sucking away at 7:30. Wonder if they have a copyright on that or a trademark on the friendly waving skunk? big grin

In my previous post with two personal examples, everything worked out the way it should. This will sound familiar: an apology followed by a correction was all it took to satisfy everybody.

I apologize for not mentioning the happy ending.

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Re: general US info: Moodle Trademark??

by Steve Hyndman - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 9:33 PM

In my previous post with two personal examples, everything worked out the way it should. This will sound familiar: an apology followed by a correction was all it took to satisfy everybody.

Good point Chris...

I apologize for my infringement on the Moodle trademark. It has been corrected and it won't happen again.

Steve

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Steve Hyndman - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 7:22 AM

"Steve, I value your opinion but please get the facts straight if you're going to post publically about this."

I value your opinion as well and I do think I have my facts straight....if not, please let me know where I'm going wrong here.

1. I have a consulting business called KentuckyClassroom.com where I offer (among other things) Moodle services.

2. You're email told me I was violating your trademark by saying the word "Moodle" on my consulting site where I was offering these services.

I assume we are in agreement on these facts?

So, I have voluntarily removed the word Moodle from appearing anywhere on my site. My question is simple....Is this satisfactory to you?

Or, are you really saying that your "trademark" prevents anyone from not only "saying" the word Moodle, but from actually providing any Moodle services for which they get paid, unless they are a Moodle Partner?

I would really like to know the answer to this question and I'm sure others on this site would also. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there doing Moodle training and getting paid for it. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there doing Moodle consulting and getting paid for it. As has already been pointed out, there are a lot of webhost out there advertising Moodle installs through fantasitco and they are getting paid for it.

And yes, I am posting publically about this because it is a very public matter that could have a great impact on this community. Based on your position stated in this thread, any organization who is considering implementing Moodle should understand that the "only people" who may provide them with Moodle services are Moodle partners--otherwise, they will be doing business with trademark violators. That's pretty big news that needs to be publically discussed and understood. And if that is incorrect, then I think it needs to be cleared up, because I'm confused.

Please understand that this is not personal...I really admire what you have built here with the help of a very large community of volunteers around the world. And, I also value the fact that there are Moodle Partners out there who provide professional Moodle services. But to say that no one else can provide those services unless they do so free of charge is pretty amazing.

You are correct about one thing...I haven't asked your permission to make money providing Moodle services...I haven't asked WordPresses permission, or phpBB's permission, or WebsiteBakers permission either.

So is that what this is all about...you want to be asked before anyone can make money on this?

I think you really need to step back and take an objective look at your position on this because, in my opinion, it could be a real big problem in the future.

Now, to the heart of the matter for me. Your email made the following request:

"Please remove references to Moodle commercial services from your website immediately."

I have done so as you can see here: www.kentuckyclassroom.com Does this meet with your approval and alleviate your concerns?

Steve

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by N Hansen - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 7:39 AM

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=qti6i1.2.1

You could name it SteveLMS and sell the same services and Moodle and even register the name SteveLMS and have no legal problems. However, as one can see from past responses on the site to people doing just that with Moodle you will incur the social wrath of this community.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Steve Hyndman - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 8:55 AM

Thanks N, but I have no interest in this.

I'm not trying to be sly, cunning, or devious here. I am simply waiting for an answer as to whether this is really about putting a name (Moodle) on a for-profit site, or whether it is really about restricting anyone from providing a service unless they are a Moodle partner.

Based on some emails I've received, others are interested in this answer as well.

Steve

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martin Dougiamas - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 8:44 AM

Again, we have a fundamental disconnect here. I feel like you're not reading anything I've said:

You said: ...any organization who is considering implementing Moodle should understand that the "only people" who may provide them with Moodle services are Moodle partners

I've never said that! In fact, I explicitly said "Nothing stops you from using Moodle to run a business. Nothing stops you from using Moodle at any time. It's just the brand."

You said: ...to say that no one else can provide those services unless they do so free of charge is pretty amazing.

It would be if I had said that, but again, I've never said that. Anyone can provide services for Moodle if they want to, as long as they don't use phrases like those on moodle.com (Moodle Hosting, Moodle Support etc).

Your site is fine, no problems and good luck with it. I hope this thread brings you many google hits.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Steve Hyndman - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 9:01 AM

Your site is fine, no problems and good luck with it. I hope this thread brings you many google hits.

I'm not looking for Google hits....just a simple answer. I'm also sorry this has seemed to upset you. I have a clear answer now and I'm satisfied.

Thanks.

Steve

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martín Langhoff - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 10:37 AM

Steve,

There's an unfortunate side to trademarks... it is really easy to lose them if you are not seen as enforcing them. So if MartinD has a knowledgeable lawyer, he would have been advised to make tell people that they must _at least_ ask for permission, and to send "cease and desist" letters to those who don't.

It's part and parcel of the strange landscape of IP law we have today. Read the 'maintaining a trademark' section in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_trademark#Maintaining_trademark_rights_.E2.80.94_abandonment_and_genericide

OTOH, it may mean just that you should ask for permission

Perhaps friends of Moodle can use the mark if they ask for explicit permission? That'd allow both MartinD to keep control of the TM by the act of granting permission (don't laugh, that's how it works) and the community to refer to Moodle, even in professional / work environments, without diluting the MP trademark.

(Disclaimer: Catalyst is a Moodle Partner)

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Diipak Gupta - Monday, 8 December 2008, 10:57 PM

Hi

I will like to thank both Steve and Martin for getting into this discussion. Steve had valid concerns (I had similar concerns and I am sure there will be more). Martin has clarified the issue appropriately. I wish best for future of moodle.

Thanks again.

Regards
Deepak Gupta

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Mark Berthelemy - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 9:10 PM

Hi Martin & everyone,

I must admit I am a little confused by this...

As part of our company's consulting work quite often suggest that organisations use Moodle as the basis of a learning solution, and also provide training where required. We're not Moodle partners, but we do use one (Pteppic.net) as our hosting provider.

Does what you're saying mean that we are not able to use the name Moodle within proposals and other documentation? Or is it just the phrases "Moodle Consultancy" and "Moodle Training" that we wouldn't be able to use?

I do understand your justified requirement to protect the Moodle brand, and also the importance of building up the Moodle Partners brand, but like Steve, I'm not quite sure what we're now allowed to do?

Yours,

Mark

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Marcus Green - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 9:34 PM

I had the priviledge of discussing copyright/trademark issues and Moodle with Martin earlier this year and his approach was entirely as I expected and consistent with how other organisations protect their interests.

To give an example of how another organisation protects its trademarks Sun Microsystems will not allow you to describe your products if the description starts with the word Java, i.e. if you had a devlelopment tool they will not allow you to call it Java Builder, thus Borland named their product JBuilder, They objected to an organisation calling their product EJBoss so the name was changed to JBoss. They would not allow you to host a web service called Java Web Services but would probably not object if you call your product Web Services with Java. When writing a book about one of their examinations I called my book TigerTamer for Java, rather than Java TigerTamer. You can see the rather dull details of how Sun specify this at
http://www.sun.com/policies/trademarks/#10b

I'm not saying Martins approach is identical, just that it seems consistent with how people protect their interests, and indeed must protect them not to loose out.

Having received NastyGrams from Sun Lawyers in the past and I understand that it can feel like a "cutting off the nose to spite the face" situation, but it isn't.

Average of ratings: Very cool (1)

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Mark Berthelemy - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 9:46 PM

Thanks Marcus,

That's helpful.

So would I be right to say that we can use the word Moodle, as long as it's not the name of a product or a service that we offer?

So could I say, for example, "we propose to use Moodle to support your learning needs and will provide training in its use" ?

Mark

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Marcus Green - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 10:07 PM

With the caveat that I don't claim to speak for Martin, I'd say that is true. We are all rogered if we cannot use the name Moodle to describe the tool we are going to use

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martin Dougiamas - Wednesday, 28 June 2006, 3:06 AM

Yes, that would probably OK, it depends on the context. It would be best to ask just to be sure.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martin Dougiamas - Wednesday, 28 June 2006, 3:04 AM

No problem, it's fine to use and talk about "Moodle" in proposals or whatever.

Mostly I'm only concerned with web-based advertising of generic Moodle services only. However, if you aren't sure, then please just contact me via moodle.com.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Mark Berthelemy - Wednesday, 28 June 2006, 5:24 PM

Thanks Martin.

Cheers,

Mark

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Chris Ainsworth - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 9:26 PM

Martin

A couple simple questions for you .....

Do the likes of the many "$5 per month" moodle hosters pay you a Royalty for every domain they host on their sites? If they don't for every site, then those organistaion using those sites are in effect breaching your licencing agreements in the context of your postings.

Are you prepared to close them all down or "grant them permission" to host on a zero contribution basis to ensure the product gets wider free publicity? A double edge sword.

If they are - then you should be reaping in a very healthy and steady income if the numbers of Moodle Sites regsitered out there is correct as per your listings on this site.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martin Dougiamas - Wednesday, 28 June 2006, 2:45 AM

Indeed these places have been getting the same letters for a long time and many of them have modified their pages. None of them are so far paying anything (or you'd see them advertised here).

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Steve Hyndman - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 3:57 AM

Done....please let me know if this meets with your approval. And, if I have accidentally missed any references to "the LMS whose name shall not be spoken" wink please let me know and I will remove them immediately.

http://www.kentuckyclassroom.com

Steve

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Andrew Schenau - Monday, 5 October 2009, 9:13 PM

Few moment ago I read somewhere in the forum that only Moodle Partners are allowed to use Moodle Trademark including domain name with "Moodle" word.

I notice that keytoschool.com is using domain name MOODLEHUB.com as their services.

Try to register. After email confirmation, you get this domain option.

Is this OK for keytoschool to use Moodlehub.com and not abusing Moodle Trademark?

Andrew

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Michael Blake - Tuesday, 6 October 2009, 4:05 PM

Only Moodle Partners may use the Moodle trademark to sell, offer or market Moodle commercial services (things such as Moodle hosting, training, support, installation, etc.) Apart from that restriction anyone (including commercial organisations) can use the word & logo freely. If there is any uncertainty, just forward your question to us at support@moode.com

The organisation you mention has not been given permission to use the Moodle trademark.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Marc Grober - Wednesday, 7 October 2009, 12:05 AM

Much in the same way Steve trolled for profile spam I trolled for logo usage and noted to HQ that there are many many outfits using the trademark without permission. HQs response is that they have this well in hand .........

There are quite a few old threads about concerning moodle trademark enforcement, and as I recall it was a letter sent to Steve that perhaps was the proverbially straw. In any event HQ's actions in the minds of some seem dubious, but as HQ has noted, it is none of our business.

As an apparent member of the white male Internet hegemony I can only trust that my Comrades @HQ continue to act in my best interests ;=} whatever they deem those to be and however they deem appropriate, for They R The Deemers

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Colin Fraser - Sunday, 3 January 2010, 10:59 AM

?As an apparent member of the white male Internet hegemony I can only trust that my Comrades @HQ continue to act in my best interests ;=} whatever they deem those to be and however they deem appropriate, for They R The Deemers"

The funniest thing I have seen since GWB became Prez...!!!! Who says lawyers don't have a sense of humour... big grin

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Funnywhi Temale - Monday, 4 January 2010, 7:16 AM

You should really try to keep up with the discussions here a bit better. I believe that reference is a thinly veiled response to a comment by Frances Bell (you know, the "ultra nice Brit" who keeps everyone in-line around here) in the following thread. http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=131379

But, you know what is even funnier? It's when a devout Moodle disciple comments on a 3.5 year old post pushing it back to the top, when most blind followers would rather see it completely disappear...now that's funny

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Marc Grober - Monday, 4 January 2010, 10:12 AM

"I am invincible as long as I am alive", but "space is the place" ;) sorry-iTuned out.... Where was I?

Oh! As mi amigo Temale suggests, I can only take credit for the "value added", but do appreciate any acknowledgement that lawyers have a sense of humor.... We really do; tuff 2 live among pitchforks in the brimstone without it-lol- unfortunately too many take themselves too seriously to appreciate the hilarity of it all...

However, though I am as much a fan of Vonnegut as the next guy, I don't think that belle rang quite so long ago, though the thread could be. No matter, for as my dear Dunne argued, do not send for whom the bell tolls....

White rabbits know something about the peninsularity men experience post-embryonic journey, as do mad hatters, but whether you seek him here and seek him there, figure that father knows best, or are just scared sober because some dolt put petn down his pants, maybe you need to heed Colin's advice and laugh a bit.

Here's to a hubris free year (lunar, Venusian, or what have you full of the sound of humans laughing at themselves - for what else are our pathetically insignificant lives if not funny?

All Hail the Great and Powerful Deemer and may the Scarlet Pimpernel be ever a chancre on our may pole, for

Chorus:
The wind may blaw, the cock may craw
The rain may rain, and the snaw may snaw

And the rain it raineth every day hey nonny nonny

We now return you to your regular radio station...

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trademark/logo vs mention - wouldn't it be easier to have an official partner logo

by KL Morgan - Wednesday, 8 December 2010, 12:16 PM

Hi,

I was quite amazed to hear that even mentioning you've provided hosting for or training in Moodle at all is allegedly an infringement of the trademark. If you are doing any commerical activity (it means you can't even mention work you've done/do if you received funds for it or are a business).

I get the use of the logo being restricted but rather than not allow anyone except partners to use the word Moodle wouldn't it just be easier to have an official moodle partner logo and text? If they are partners because they know the product better than others and have special accreditation then wouldn't the use of such a logo add credibility and put them ahead of the pack anyway?

More curious than anything. Not allowing mention seems a little bit of overkill to me.

*shrugs*

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Re: trademark/logo vs mention - wouldn't it be easier to have an official partner logo

by Michael Blake - Friday, 10 December 2010, 2:25 AM

Hi KL,

Organisations wanting to sell or advertise Moodle commercial services (Moodle hosting, Moodle training, etc) must seek permission from the Moodle helpdesk (support@moodle.com). Generally only Moodle Partners are given permission to use the registered trademark (word or logo) for selling Moodle services.

You can freely use the name and logo for most other purposes. Mentioning you've provided hosting services probably isn't going to be a problem, however creating a website or advertising campaign to sell Moodle commercial service probably will! Use of the trademark is a key benefit of the Moodle Partner program. It's important to remember that Moodle Partners fund the majority of development work coming out of Moodle HQ.

Moodle Partners do have an office logo. It looks like this:

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Re: trademark/logo vs mention - wouldn't it be easier to have an official partner logo

by Marc Grober - Friday, 10 December 2010, 3:41 AM

However, Moodle HQ will not divulge what their position is vis-a-vis the hundreds of outfits that advertise commercial Moodle services.......

Does this outfit have permission? http://www.moodle-hosting-4u.com/

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Re: trademark/logo vs mention - wouldn't it be easier to have an official partner logo

by Michael Blake - Friday, 10 December 2010, 6:59 AM

Believe me, we spend a lot of time and resources in an effort to protect the trademark.

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Re: trademark/logo vs mention - wouldn't it be easier to have an official partner logo

by Marc Grober - Friday, 10 December 2010, 10:06 AM

"Believe me, we spend a lot of time and resources in an effort to protect the trademark." But that's the problem, Micharl, we don't believe it

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Re: trademark/logo vs mention - wouldn't it be easier to have an official partner logo

by Bryan Williams - Saturday, 11 December 2010, 2:43 AM

Actually, Michael does a fine job communicating to those who feel it is their right to break the law (i.e., violate trade mark protected intellectual property) that they will be held accountable for their actions. A rather thank-less but necessary job! This is usually done with a request to please cease violating the trade mark (the carrot), and if necessary with legal action (the stick) to enforce the rights of the trade mark owner. There is nothing at all unusual or unique about someone wanting to protect what belongs to them by involving the legal system.

As open source software Moodle is free to use, free to modify and free to distribute. There are actually forks of Moodle today, which is all perfectly legal. Such forked programs of course are not Moodle. What is not free is the right to commercially trade or exploit the Moodle name (i.e., take money for Moodle services by using the trade mark and name). That right is reserved and is one way in which Moodle remains viable as an open source project.

Many thousands of organizations have become dependent on using Moodle as a mission critical application. It is in their best interest to see that Moodle continues to remain viable as an open source application. In lieu of paying insane software license fees, as with commercial programs, an organization can show its support for Moodle by either directly donating a small amount of money they are saving, or indirectly donate by using the services of an authorized Moodle partner. Such an action will ensure that something they depend upon will continue to be around for their organizations use, getting better and better with each new release.

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Re: trademark/logo vs mention - wouldn't it be easier to have an official partner logo

by Marc Grober - Saturday, 11 December 2010, 4:08 AM

Unfortunately, Bryan, with respect to your comment below:

"Actually, Michael does a fine job communicating to those who feel it is their right to break the law (i.e., violate trade mark protected intellectual property) that they will be held accountable for their actions. A rather thank-less but necessary job! This is usually done with a request to please cease violating the trade mark (the carrot), and if necessary with legal action (the stick) to enforce the rights of the trade mark owner. There is nothing at all unusual or unique about someone wanting to protect what belongs to them by involving the legal system."

we have no evidence....... And, as I was at pains to point out in prior discussions, this is not about criminal action where someone is breaking the law. This is about a rather complex body of civil law that changes from country to country that awards certain rights and remedies to those who can demonstrate first and exclusive use. The only bit black and white about it is the text on the paper.

It has previously been discussed that it would be rather simple to script out a way to handily identify all those arguably with potential liability and that the failue to take effective action against those with potential liability argued against the viability of the marque vis-a-vis any remedies available. Assistance has been offered as well as suggestions (such as maintain a list of offenders and identifying the action taken against them.) But to this date, much like other aspects of Moodle HQ, things are "shrouded in mystery", lol. Indeed, Moodle HQ won't even share the boilerplate of a partnership agreement until after you request to be a partner; that's like volunteering for the USMC as a gay woman (maybe one needs to have some idea of what they are getting into before applying?)

And, in the one instance where I pointed out an issue, I was eventually told that the enterprise, which was not a Moodle Partner, had been given permission. But there were Moodle Partners not aware of this fact and the enterprise actually landed a rather flush contract, none of which went to Moodle HQ. Nor was there any indication anywhere that permission had been requested, or that the enterprise has permission. In fact there were persons actually telling other persons in these forums that the enterprise WAS a Moodle partner as I recall - lol.

Please note that I am NOT (as expect some to argue) attacking Michael or anyone else. Moodle HQ certainly has the right to conduct business as they see fit (in secret, or otherwise.) Personally, I think the best part of becoming a Moodle Partner is the coarse wollen cowl one gets to wear

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Max Zúñiga - Friday, 14 July 2006, 4:37 PM

Sad,sad,very sad.....

Average of ratings: Not cool (1)

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Don Schwartz - Friday, 14 July 2006, 7:37 PM

Max, Your short reply is what is sad.

I just read every post in this extremely important thread because it applies to my business. The thread is full of sincere and businesslike discussion as it should be.

In fact, this thread has clarified what I've always assumed and how we've approached working with Moodle as a non-partner.

Then you top it off by saying nothing of value. As my Dad always told me, "If you have nothing good to say then don't say anything".

Average of ratings: Not cool (2)

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Steve Hyndman - Friday, 14 July 2006, 11:00 PM

Don,

I think Max replied to the original post here that contained the cease and desist email I received. His reply is not verbose, but I read it as an expression of his feelings about this...which I do value.

In your reply above, you state:

"In fact, this thread has clarified what I've always assumed and how we've approached working with Moodle as a non-partner."

Does that mean you are asking permission from Moodle.com every time you include the name Moodle on your for-profit site or in any of your materials?

We may have drawn different conclusions based on this discussion. Here is what I've concluded.

1. The cease and desist email clearly stated: "You may freely refer to Moodle in your website in most instances, however, you may not do this if you are providing commercial services AND charging fees for these services."

The sentence above tells me that I may not even refer to Moodle on a commercial site where I charge fees for services.

2. The cease and desist email clearly stated: "Please remove references to Moodle commercial services from your website immediately."

3. Martin clearly stated: "Yes, Steve, you are advertising Moodle Hosting on your site (which uses my trademark) but that is a privilege I only give to Moodle Partners that contribute to Moodle development and the livelihood of people pouring their lives into Moodle."

4. When another person in this thread asked the specific questions: "So would I be right to say that we can use the word Moodle, as long as it's not the name of a product or a service that we offer? So could I say, for example, "we propose to use Moodle to support your learning needs and will provide training in its use?"

5. The answer to those questions was: Yes, that would probably OK, it depends on the context. It would be best to ask just to be sure.

Simply stated, the question was ...can we use the word Moodle... and the answer was ...it depends on the context.

I've been accused in this thread (and via private messages) of misleading and "not getting the facts straight", so please understand that what I've written above are direct quotes. Now, here is my understanding based on this discussion:

Don't use the word Moodle in any context on any for-profit site unless you ask first.

Based on the discussion here, would you consider that a valid conclusion?

This is not what I assumed before this discussion, but it's what I understand now. And, in my opinion, Max's post succinctly sums-up my feelings on this quite well.

I think there are many different ways the Moodle trademark could be protected and this heavy-handed approach is just about the worst, especially in an open source community.

Again, just my opinion based on facts. I'm not happy, but I'm complying sad

Steve

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Don Schwartz - Sunday, 16 July 2006, 6:32 AM

Steve,

I've been in software my whole life. The first thing I did when getting involved with Moodle was to read the license and determine exactly how we as a commecial enterprise are effected. We read, we understand and we follow the rules. We may disagree with the license, but too bad.

Our site does not contain the Moodle logo which was built-into the theme but removed by me.

We sell tutorials delivered via Moodle but never mention Moodle.

Our other site which sells fully integrated, private corporate learning systems based on Moodle mentions Moodle, points to Moodle, contains the Moodle Features Demo but never says we sell, support or otherwise take responsibility for Moodle. When discussing our service with a prospect we tell them all about Moodle and the fact that they can get it themselves or find a partner to work with. But.. since it is our content they are after and we maintain the content, we do host it for them and configure it for them and maintain Moodle for them. We specifically charge for our content and hosting only. In fact I've sent clients to partners for services I could not provide. The few client's who insist on putting the system on their own in-house servers are instructed how to download and setup Moodle before we install our content.

We would love to be a partner if Moodle recognized that there are many uses beyond what Martin sees for the tool we call Moodle. We have absolutely no desire to ever be a jack of all trades Moodle consultant and from meeting lots of folks I think there are many others in the same boat as us. We are 100% focused on supplying best in class learning tools to a narrow market. We consider ourselves a Content Producer, very much like a scientific text book publisher in your world. We produce, publish, deliver and support eLearning for professionals in the engineering and construction disciplines. Why is there not a Content/Publisher Partner designation?

I know I'm rambling now but you got me going.

We have been involved with Autodesk for 20 years. When we first got into tutorial content, CBT (computer based training) in the late 90's they only had one partner level and we had to join it. We were a developer even though we developed nothing. Now Autodesk has evolved to where they see the varied needs of the partners who support their customers.

We are now an Authorized Publisher

Others are Authorized Training Centers

Authorized Developers

Authorized Resellers

Premier Resellers (the guys who get to Hawaii for free)

and a few other designations.

I feel Moodle (Martin) should understand that there are literally hundreds of specialists like us who are ready, willing and able to support the project if only we were accepted as the niche filler we are. Yes, I know there is the donate button but that is like asking people to voluntarily pay some taxes. We want to be beholden to Moodle, pay a percentage or yearly fee and be able to tell the world what we do with this great software.

One last thing. My boss, the owner and old fashioned software reseller has one big issue with Open Source that keeps him nervous about Moodle. His problem. We're not locked in and beholden which means of course that neither is Moodle to us.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Steve Hyndman - Sunday, 16 July 2006, 9:32 AM

Don,

I'm not your enemy...more power to you. Looks like you're doing great...more power to open source and the open market.

Sounds to me like you are going to great lengths to not mention the word Moodle, but still provide Moodle services (hosting, configuration, and maintenance).

Again, in my opinion, that's sad, but that's the way it is.

I'm still interested in your view on my conclusion though. I said that based on the discussion in this thread, my understanding of the rules is:

Don't use the word Moodle in any context on any for-profit site unless you ask first.

Agree or not?

Steve

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Don Schwartz - Sunday, 16 July 2006, 10:03 AM

Disagree

I may be wrong, but my interpretation is we can say Moodle drives the site(s). We can say we use Moodle to deliver our content. We can recommend Moodle to our clients. But we don't.

We cannot sell ourselves, our hosting, our services, our support in relation to Moodle without Martin's permission. We don't.

Since I am not 100% clear and neither are our lawyers we decided early on to remove the Moodle name from our sites and our marketing. We sell our content delivered by open source learning management systems.

I think Moodle is who loses when we don't give credit where it is due.

Most other open source is exactly the opposite but most other's are open group projects. I'm fairly certain that I can do anything I want with Joomla or PhPNuke but I cannot remove the name from the works I create. I can build sites for a profit, sell professional Joomla hosting and services, even package it with proprietary software on a CD. But I think I have to keep the name Joomla and it's license.

The real difference is that Moodle is not open in the "pure" sense. Martin owns the trademark. Martin decides what goes in the next release and Martin decides who he wants to build a partner infrastructure with. We may feel he is wrong but it is his right.

Steve, I'm really glad you've opened these discussions and obviously refuse to let it lie.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Steve Hyndman - Sunday, 16 July 2006, 10:58 AM

Steve, I'm really glad you've opened these discussions and obviously refuse to let it lie. \n

",1] ); D(["mb","

Show parent | Reply

See this post in context

",1] ); D(["mb","

\n\n

Unsubscribe from this forum

\n\n\n\n",0] ); D(["ce"]); //-->

I agree. Thanks for the input and insight.

Steve, I'm really glad you've opened these discussions and obviously refuse to let it lie.

True...I not only believe the the "theory" of social constructivism (or constructionism

), I also believe in its practice.

Steve

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Marcus Green - Monday, 17 July 2006, 12:00 AM

The real difference is that Moodle is not open in the "pure" sense.

It is open. You can take the Moodle source code, fork and call it BicyclUnderPants VLE and plug that.
(But unless you have a very good reason you would be rather unpopular with a lot of people)

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martin Dougiamas - Sunday, 16 July 2006, 3:42 PM

Don, did you ever approach me to ask about this? I don't recall it! mixed

I fear that you've completely misunderstood the license. Making and selling courses is one of the main uses of Moodle, and there is no issue at all in using the Moodle trademark to talk about it. I consider it advertising and encourage it - the more the merrier! Your site is quite WELCOME to mention Moodle on it, because it is not selling generic Moodle services (such as Moodle hosting).

Selling content (even in Moodle format) is not listed on moodle.com as a service, and is currently irrelevant to this discussion. It's DELIBERATELY not on our list precisely because it's one of the many areas I don't want to restrict in any way at all (social constructionism, Steve). In fact, I have three different plans for freely listing sites that are providing courses to the public.

Don, if you truly want your company to have some sort of business relationship with Moodle then contact me and let's sort something out!

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email?? - Compare to Linux trademark

by David Delgado - Sunday, 16 July 2006, 7:49 PM

Linus Torvalds owns the Linux Trademark. Anyway, he does not charge Red Hat, Suse, or other profitable companies for its use.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email?? - Compare to Linux trademark

by Marcus Green - Sunday, 16 July 2006, 11:58 PM

But he could

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email?? - Compare to Linux trademark

by Samuli Karevaara - Monday, 17 July 2006, 1:20 AM

Yes, Linus doesn't charge Red Hat et al. Linus didn't even want the trademark in the first place. He has it now so it's in the right hands. It was actually paid by Linux distributors (Red Hat et al) in the first place.

But: the Linux trademark is handled on Linus' behalf by Linux Mark Institute. And from their FAQ:
"You need to apply for a sublicense if you are using the term “Linux” as part of your own trademark or brand identifier for Linux-based software goods or services. It doesn’t matter if your trademark is unregistered, or if you do not plan to make any money using the mark."

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email?? - Compare to Linux trademark

by Andy Diament - Monday, 17 July 2006, 1:30 AM

...and there was a bit of fuss last year when the company did start sending out requests for money to use the Linux trademark, though they insisted it was more about trademark enforcement than the money.
The difference here is that the Linux Mark Instute have a much broader set of criteria for allowing a company to use the trademark.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email?? - Compare to Linux trademark

by David Delgado - Monday, 17 July 2006, 6:28 AM

So, Andy, I was wrong when I said that Linus was not charging profitable companies for their use of the Linux trademark. Sorry about that.

I should have said that he is not making any money with that sublicensing. It is interesting to know that there's one non-profitable organization in charge of the trademark to help him make good use of that. It is interesting also to know that they are in fact loosing money in that work.

It would be interesting also to compare the use of the Linux trademark with the Unix trademark. Linux is a free, open source, Unix-like operating system, but it is not allowed to use the Unix trademark, mainly because of the high cost of that "privilege". I guess the Open Group are not loosing any money with that work.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Don Schwartz - Monday, 17 July 2006, 2:10 AM

Thanks Martin. We'll be in touch this week, and yes this is the first I've mentioned it other than a brief discussion we had in Savannah.

Also Martin, what you've said here does add to the confusion though because your license does not say "generic Moodle services" or define what generic moodle services are. That to me is the heart of the matter. We do not provide "generic" services but we do promote commercial services based around Moodle for a specific industry and educational segment of the marekt. I think you really need to get one of those nasty lawyer folks to clean up the text of the license in order to avoid confusion in the future. The license needs to say what it says clearly.

---"

The name Moodle™ is a registered trademark of Moodle Pty Ltd. If you are intending to use the name to promote commercial Moodle services (eg hosting, support etc), then you must seek permission from Martin Dougiamas via the moodle.com helpdesk, in accordance with normal trademark restrictions. There are no restrictions on how you use the name in other contexts (for example, if you use Moodle just to provide courses then you can use the name freely to refer to it.) "...

Just to Be perfectly clear. I love my license plate and plan to keep it for many years whatever the trademark.

Average of ratings: Very cool (1)

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Max Zúñiga - Monday, 17 July 2006, 5:40 AM

This plate looks really cool ,
This is nice , and
makes me happy.
Cheers
Max

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by David Delgado - Monday, 17 July 2006, 7:14 AM

The license is clear, Don. Just "do not use the name Moodle™ to promote commercial Moodle services", just call them say, "e-learning services", do exactly the same, and it will be legal.

The same happens with the Linux trademark.

I guess that your cool plate is not intended to "promote commercial Moodle services", so I think it is legal too.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martin Dougiamas - Monday, 17 July 2006, 5:41 PM

There's not even a need to jump to renaming. The license actually just requests people to ASK for permission ... it does not say we'll automatically refuse anything!

Don said: "The first thing I did when getting involved with Moodle was to read the license and determine exactly how we as a commecial enterprise are effected. We read, we understand and we follow the rules", but he actually didn't. Instead: "since I am not 100% clear and neither are our lawyers we decided early on to remove the Moodle name from our sites and our marketing".

All this could have been solved early on by simply asking.

The license plate is fine, I just wish I had one.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Steve Hyndman - Monday, 17 July 2006, 8:52 PM

There's not even a need to jump to renaming. The license actually just requests people to ASK for permission ... it does not say we'll automatically refuse anything!

I, and probably a lot of others, would simply be interested in knowing your criteria for approval. Is that too much to ask? Do you have criteria, or does it just depend on the requester and how you are feeling that particular day? If you have criteria, then why don't you just publish it so people will know the rules.

If "...it depends on the context..." is your criteria, then I would say it needs some work.

Steve

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martin Dougiamas - Tuesday, 18 July 2006, 9:31 AM

I certainly have very clear criteria for making decisions, but of course I reserve the right to change them depending on the context, as does anyone.

If my whole decision-making criteria were written in detail on the web (and I don't know any other business in the world that does this) it would be difficult to ever adjust my thinking as Moodle grows, and people would still probably choose to misinterpret them anyway (note in this thread how even the very simple existing request in the license is already being misinterpreted).

By asking for permission this is all resolved cleanly, they get a yay or a nay, and that's it.

Let me just re-iterate what this is about - using my brand for advertising commercial Moodle services such as Moodle hosting, Moodle support, Moodle training, Moodle consulting, Moodle installation, Moodle certification etc. There is no issue doing those things if you don't use the brand, and you can use the brand when doing anything else, such as giving courses etc.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Mike Strong - Tuesday, 18 July 2006, 10:44 AM

Good for you Martin! Just so you don't feel demonized - read on.

I just read the whole thread and what a read it was. Having practised law for awhile, I'll just say that it's your mark and you are more than entitled to use it and have others use it as you like.

If people want to tie profit-making activities to your mark, then they should just "get onboard" and become a Moodle Partner. All the complaining, etc. jeesh! You could really go after the cut-rate LAMP hosting companies who use Fantastico - that might yield quite a revenue stream. Everyone wants the world for free. As you know, mark owners must vigorously enforce their rights, as people will take advantage. The books are filled with cases of infringement and dilution (McDonalds Corp. being the most aggressive, maybe).

Cheers
Mike Strong, (formerly Esq. wink

)

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martin Dougiamas - Tuesday, 18 July 2006, 10:50 AM

Thanks, Mike!

The bottom line is making the Moodle project sustainable into the future and keeping the software Free.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Richard Treves - Tuesday, 18 July 2006, 3:38 PM

Steve,

You are obviously not happy with Martin's position on the Moodle mark as it affects your livelyhood. I think you have a right to question him on this in the forums and you have done so. However, I also think Martin has a right to make a livelyhood too and he has made his position clear, I don't think legally or morally he has to say any more than 'ask before using in a commercial situation'.
One of the great strengths of Moodle is this excellent community, I worry that a casual visitor to this forum may get the wrong idea of the community here because there are a lot of niggly posts in this thread. A seasoned forum user would realise its just a disagreement between 2 members of an online community but not all potential users are seasoned forum users.

I'm not seeking to censor you, but IMHO the place for this discussion, should you wish to take it further, is between you and Martin via email or, even better when trying to reach consensus, on the phone. I'd be interested to hear the result of your discussions here.

Rich

Average of ratings: Very cool (5)

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Steve Hyndman - Tuesday, 18 July 2006, 8:21 PM

Thanks for the post Richard, but let me correct just one thing....it doesn't affect my livelihood. That is the main reason I can talk about it when others (who may have their livelihood affected) may not feel free to discuss it.

And, you are correct. No where have I said Martin does not have the right to do what he is doing in whatever way he wants to do it.

You say here, that you would be interested in hearing the results....we'll, you and anyone else can see the results as they have evolved here and draw your own conclusions...and I think that is a good thing. I also think that newcomers are just as capable as anyone of reading this thread and drawing their own conclusions.

I think what newcomers may come away with is that this is a community where open discussion can happen....even if it's not flattering of the Trade Mark owner. And if they conclude that it is not flattering of me, that's okay as well...I stand by everything I wrote.

On a side note....I did have a "short" exchange with Martin via the private message system here and I won't continue that. Also, I won't post the exchange here out of courtesy to Martin since it was private, but I do give Martin permission to post the entire exchange here if he likes.

I do appreciate your opinion and thanks for not censoring.

Steve

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by D.I. von Briesen - Saturday, 5 August 2006, 12:18 AM

I'm kind of at a loss as to where to post this, as this is one of those threads (56 posts at last count) that gets so long it's hard to figure out where to start and finish).

I have been doing minor IT consulting since I was about 22 (others start when they're 10 I suppose) and as I became familiar with moodle, and became the chief advocate/pimp/evangelist for my school, and eventually North Carolina (a state here in the U.S), it was inevitable that a few paid jobs came along. In one, I worked for a small district and basically suggested they get busy putting things online, and so we set up moodle- but most of the work was doing 4 websites. In another it was our internal Corporate and Continuing Ed dept for some training - they actually couldn't pay my company- they had to do some overload pay thru our HR since I was an employee. In other cases, I've gotten some small stipends or honorarium for presentations. Sometimes it's nothing, and sometimes its gas money.

So I assume I'm a lot like a lot of folks here - I'm confident very few moodlers are professional service providers (at least as a percentage) - I make my living as a teacher and an administrator. I have openly talked about one day wanting to teach half the time, and consult (originally with moodle) the other half. So I finally incorporated, made up a company name, got a business bank account, etc... Then I submitted a moodle partner application some time ago (a year, or two? It's all a blur) and after a brief back-and forth, it ended up dead in the water.

There is an active discussion OUTSIDE this forum that is far more secretive and goes on between all kinds of folks who are reluctant to post here for a variety of reasons. I am reluctant to post here because I now do work for a partner - and I don't want to hurt that - but my heart says it's necessary to write here, and I'd rather follow that than my wallet.

Folks are wondering why there has been no US partner approved in a LONG time. Folks are wondering what's going on with moodlerooms, and it's relationship to Martin, vis-a-vis other partners. Folks are wondering if, when they contribute to code, when they participate on this board, when the enhance and build the community immensely in their regions, why they can't be partners; Why their applications are in some kind of limbo. It'd be one thing to say, "Become a partner and you're legit" but that's not it. You're saying, "You can't use the name to offer any professional services associated with the name, oh, and by the way, you'll never be able to because we're not making any new partners."

So that's one concern- I don't know if it's an ethical or moral issue - but it just feels rotten to me. I've got a couple grand sitting in a bank account that I'd be happy to give to moodle as a partner, but since I can't be partner, what's my motivation? Nothing like reading a cease-and-desist letter to stamp out goodwill.

The other concern is actually much broader, and IMHO more critical to the community at large. Down here in the trenches of K-12, community colleges, non-profits, prisons, etc... we are in a high-stakes battle with commercial vendors to get moodle in before somebody in a suit signs a contract for 3 years with someone like blackCT. Moodle NEEDS professional representation and it needs a lot of it in a lote places. Moodle needs a presenter and a consultant at EVERY education conference with over a few hundred people. Moodle services need to show up in yellow pages, and banner ads (eww... did I say that?) and silver, gold and bronze sponsors at shows, and on those stupid shoestrings that hold your badge around your neck... the moodle name needs to synonymous with high-quality, low cost, improved education.

Would you buy a car if there was nobody who serviced that brand? Would you buy a computer that had no reputation? Or where the only people who could work on it for you were "under the table" not allowed to list the product on their site for fear of a letter of reprimand, and when doing so voided the warranty or hope of support from the public forum?

Martin, I know you - not well, but we've met and had brief conversations. I know some others in the community much better, and we've had some lengthy discussions on this. There is a huge body of conversation that you may never have access to (but which I'm sure you participate in) surrounding the partners program revenue streams, branding, forking, renaming, etc... As I said before, many are just not comfortable hanging this out here- and kudos to those who've spoken up.

Martin wrote "The bottom line is making the Moodle project sustainable into the future and keeping the software Free."

If this is REALLY the bottom line, then figure out a way for others to be part of the professional team. The small guys won't threaten the big partners - but they will help advocate moodle and get it into the small markets, and they will be happy to give 10% back to moodle. There could be a long discussion about the short and long-term consequencies of monopolies or oligopolies - but normally it wouldn't involve a healthy, thriving, happy community.

Cheers!

d.i.

ps: I can't stop thinking about bicycleunderpantsCMS.... thoughtful

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by N Hansen - Saturday, 5 August 2006, 2:35 AM

About Moodlerooms, I can say one thing-its web site has sure changed completely since I first saw it in May. It was never announced here, but I saw someone mention it in the forums and so I visited the site out of curiosity. At that time its list of owners was outlined clearly, one of them being Martin. At the time, it seemed that their big emphasis was on mentoring services, but now it seems the entire web site has changed, no mention of anyone's name is made anywhere, and the focus seems to be more on hosting services. I am not saying anything sinister is going on here, and maybe these changes were made in response to a less than desired response to the first design, but still it seems a bit odd. And in any case, it sounded a lot more impressive and innovative before the change. Frankly, some of the text on the site is real purple prose:

What sets Moodlerooms apart?

We were born to support Moodlers. Finally, we provide reassurance and results for the clever, clever institutions that are turning to Moodle from proprietary companies.

Born to support Moodlers? What, is it in their genes? And what are clever, clever insitutions? That just sounds silly and completely unconvincing.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martin Dougiamas - Sunday, 6 August 2006, 4:23 PM

Well, there was several different iterations of the company being discussed before they finally properly got set up in July. At one point I was considering more personal involvement but decided against it because of the possible conflicts of interest.

As for the prose, perhaps it does read that way but if you knew the passion and commitment of Tom Murdock, Gina Russell, Sheila Gatling, Art Lader, Lesli Smith and the rest of their team like I do then it would seem more forgivable.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by N Hansen - Sunday, 6 August 2006, 9:52 PM

Those of us familiar with the passion and commitment of those people, but that doesn't matter if the ad copy is lousy. All I am saying is that what I read back in May sounded spectacular, and it has been replaced with goofy stuff that sounds like it was written by a high school intern. I mean if I was shopping for Moodle services, I wouldn't care if they considered themselves to be "born to Moodle" but I would care about what they could do for me. There was detailed information about that before, now it has been replaced with purple prose and canned descriptions of their services.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by dave cormier - Sunday, 6 August 2006, 10:57 PM

Tell us how you really feel...

However i may have worded things slightly differently, I share some of your frustration. While i do not advise people to use moodle in every situation I've been advocating moodle all over for while now. One of the impediments to offering moodle as a serious solution (read: enterprise) is the lack of (traditional) professionalism in the ways some people speak about it. Administrators are not interested so much with "those are yearly prices, not monthly!" comments. The people who are converting to moodle, from, to pick a piece of software at random, blackboard, are used to the 'men in suits' flash and pizzazz approach.

The money is not the issue... in reality it never is. The advantage of a product like moodle is its customization blended with its scalability, both from a technical and a pedagical side. Those teachers on the low end of the CMS economy (and we've had many on our show) will go to insertcutiename-host and install moodle either from download or with an automated install. The real battleground, the professional institutions, need less "purple prose and canned descriptions" and more clear, professional assurances that the open source route is not going to blow up in their face...

and the sad truth is that the enthusiasm and dedication that Martin was alluding to in the team is often read a short term quality.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Steve Hyndman - Sunday, 6 August 2006, 11:03 PM

I mean if I was shopping for Moodle services, I wouldn't care if they considered themselves to be "born to Moodle" but I would care about what they could do for me.

But that's the beauty of a monopoly...your "shopping" options are extremely limited...if you don't like it, where are you going to go? wink

Steve

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by N Hansen - Monday, 7 August 2006, 2:47 AM

Steve-Honestly, the way Moodlerooms was described back in May it sounded like they were offering something quite different from other partners, at least with respect to the mentoring. I was really impressed.

In any case, what concerned me a bit about the Moodle partners and the way Moodle has been handled in general in the US is the concentration on the East Coast. The Moodle Moots that have been held here have all been on the East Coast, two around DC and one in NY. The three Moodle partners are on the East Coast. While this shouldn't hinder them in dealing with potential customers over the internet, I wonder if it limits their in-person marketing efforts, or the cost of any in-person training sessions they offer (due to the expense of flying their reps to points beyond the East Coast).

There certainly haven't been any Moodle Moots somewhere that it would be affordable for me to attend. The airfare, the hotel, the registration fees (I'm in a field where the conference registration fees are always much more reasonable and often they are free, and the conference organizers even sometimes put the participants up), are all cost prohibitive. The irony is I can attend conferences in Egypt even though I live in Chicago and spend less money in doing so than going to a Moodle Moot in Massachusetts.

I do feel to some extent that we Midwesterners and those out West are sort of left out of the loop of things. I mean this is a big country with four major time zones (leaving out Alaska and Hawaii) and six hours by plane from coast to coast. But perhaps that is how you can fill a niche. While you might not be able to be an independent partner, you might be able to work with an existing East Coast partner as a Midwest representative.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Tom Murdock - Monday, 7 August 2006, 10:30 AM

Thanks, all, for your helpful critiques of the webcopy at Moodlerooms
blush

. Because I am not a code developer, this is my first experience of
"constructive criticism" from the forums... Egad. I re-double my
appreciation towards developers (maybe this is my personal penance for
asking for too many features in the past).

Briefly, I was trying to point out that we had constructed a company around
the support of Moodle (a company is born), but the text clearly causes a
false laugh, so I will revise. (The power of revision). As for Nicole's
curiousness about why our Moodle Mentor support program is not "front and
center" on the site in this iteration, it is only because of a chicken and
egg proposition: more hosting promotes more mentoring; more mentoring does
not necessarily promise more hosting. We believe the two make for a winning combination, though.

I've been following this thread with interest, too, and I really appreciate
the various passions that make this thread hiccup with starts and stops. I
invite Moodlers to connect with me off-line if they wonder whether their
companies could coordinate with Moodlerooms. We're not big enough yet to
hire and contract with all the people in this forum, but our ears are
wide open for great ideas that you think will continue the very fast growth
of Moodle in the USA.

-Tom (Moodlerooms)

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Steve Hyndman - Monday, 7 August 2006, 8:12 PM

I invite Moodlers to connect with me off-line if they wonder whether their
companies could coordinate with Moodlerooms. We're not big enough yet to
hire and contract with all the people in this forum, but our ears are
wide open for great ideas that you think will continue the very fast growth
of Moodle in the USA.

Tom,

Thanks for the post and I'll have to say, I'm very impressed with the positive and good natured way you responded to some pretty harsh criticism of Moodlerooms here. I met you (and some of your other partners) last year at the NE Moot and it's obvious the dedication you have to Moodle and online learning. Again, I hope your company is a raging success.

I would imagine there are some people here who would like the opportunity to work for your company...or become a sub-partner?...I'm not really sure how that would work, since this is the first time I've heard of this approach where other "companies could coordinate with Moodlerooms". Does this mean that existing partners have the "authority" to allow other companies to use the trademark if they work with the partner company in some way? Is there a sub-partner program that no one has heard about?

Please don't take this wrong, but I'm not interested in being hired by your company. If I wanted to work for someone else, I wouldn't have started my own company...I would imagine a lot of others who are reading this thread with interest feel the same way.

But, I do want to end by saying again, I truly do wish you and your company the best.

Oh....and a great idea that will continue the very fast growth of Moodle in the USA is for moodle.com to rethink its sweeping enforcement of the trademark and understand that you can have a viable partners program and still allow others to advertise the fact that they offer Moodle services (something that a lot of other people are already doing anyway). It's ironic that the people who are complying with the trademark enforcement are people like me who are regular contributors to the forums here and who are (were) spreading the good work about Moodle. Others who contribute nothing to Moodle are still offering Moodle services and are just ignoring the trademark issue....just do a Google search on Moodle Training, Hosting, Themes, Support, etc., to see for yourself. If I were a partner I would be concerned about what this approach could do to my earning potential.

Steve

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email?? (Or calling all Midwestern Moodlers)

by Lesli Smith - Monday, 7 August 2006, 8:13 PM

"There certainly haven't been any Moodle Moots somewhere that it would be affordable for me to attend. The airfare, the hotel, the registration fees (I'm in a field where the conference registration fees are always much more reasonable and often they are free, and the conference organizers even sometimes put the participants up), are all cost prohibitive. The irony is I can attend conferences in Egypt even though I live in Chicago and spend less money in doing so than going to a Moodle Moot in Massachusetts."

Nicole--What a fabulous idea! We SHOULD find a way to organize some kind of Moot here in the Midwest. Here's what I learned from my trip to Byfield, MA:

1) The Moot in Byfield was started by some enthusiastic Moodlers on a campus with wide institutional and community support simply because of their own desire to share what they learned with others. Totally grass roots and it has grown since.

2) They generously waived registration and boarding fees for presenters. I met several colleagues who did what I did, as we teachers often do: find a way to get to a conference on a subject we're really passionate about--even if it means we have to work a little bit while we're there.

And since I was presenting, my very forward-thinking school (they're interested in Moodle, but haven't gone in that direction, yet) found professional development grant funds to send me to the conference. But you're so right--any conference we can attend that doesn't cost airfare is much easier to get approval for and to attend, especially if it is a passion we alone hold on our separate campuses.

Now to apply these lessons to the Midwest: I do know that several institutions in the Twin Cities metro area are or have already adopted Moodle--mostly higher ed instititutions. I also know that Luther in Decorah, Iowa has adopted Moodle. I'm sure there are other Midwestern schools out there that haven't crossed my somewhat limited radar, yet. I'm also sure that we could all put our heads together and find a way to make a Moot happen in our area.

Here's my one reservation: I'm due to have a baby in November this year, so I know that I can't realistically commit to coordinating such an undertaking myself in the near future--but I will say here and now that I would be willing to serve as a support person for any other energetic soul willing to take on this initiative.

In Byfield this June and here at Moodle.org over the past few years, it has been my experience that Moodlers are some of the most generous people on earth.

In short, where there's a need, we'll find a way to fill it. What do you say, Midwesterners, anyone interested?

Lesli

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email?? (Or calling all Midwestern Moodlers)

by Tony Hursh - Monday, 7 August 2006, 8:21 PM

There are quite a few of us here at UIUC. I know of at least eight Moodle installations here on campus, and there may well be others that I don't know about.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email?? (Or calling all Midwestern Moodlers)

by N Hansen - Tuesday, 8 August 2006, 1:31 AM

Twin Cities would work for me-as long as the Megabus is still running and I buy my tickets far enough in advance I could get from Chicago to Minneapolis for $1 each way! Can't beat that price (and believe it or not, the Megabus is actually quite comfortable and nice-I took it to Milwaukee in June for $1). I got an email the other day from someone in Minnesota at a university using Moodle and I know there are others, I think maybe even high schools too-so it might be a good location. It might also be a good location for some people who want to come down from Canada. Champaign-Urbana is good too. I'd even fly out to Humboldt State in California if they had a Moot since I could visit with my parents along the way up there...It's just the east coast that is a real hassle and expense since the flight schedules all seem to be such that you have no choice but to fly in the night before and shell out $150 plus for an extra hotel night-which is a real annoyance considering that the flight usually doesn't take more than 2 hours.

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Re: Calling all Midwestern Moodlers

by Lesli Smith - Tuesday, 8 August 2006, 3:06 AM

Megabus? Didn't know that existed. Will have to check it out--much cheaper than driving to Chicago as I have done in the past. Sounds as if there's interest even closer to you--UIUC?? I would certainly be willing to travel to Illinois, too. Have done it often for various reasons.

Well, I know this is my fault, but we're really veering off topic, here. Still, I'd really like to keep discussion on a possible Midwest Moot going, if people are interested. I think I'll start a new thread to that effect.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email?? (Or calling all Midwestern Moodlers)

by Jonathan Moore - Wednesday, 9 August 2006, 4:01 PM

I just want to mention that there have been MoodleMoots in the Midwest. The first US MoodleMoot that I know of that was posted on moodle.org was actually in Kansas three years ago. We have been putting it on with MACE (http://www.mace-ks.org/mticonference.htm) ever since. We just had one not 2 weeks ago. The week before that there was one in Oklahoma and I think there have been ones in Nebraska.

Doesn't mean we don't need more, but there have been no shortage of options, perhaps just not enough marketing

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martin Dougiamas - Sunday, 6 August 2006, 4:08 PM

Hi D.I.,

In the U.S. at the moment we're trying an approach of a few larger companies rather than lots and lots of little ones, primarily to reduce central administration (you probably don't realise how much time it takes to manage royalties and partners, it's basically a full-time job already) but also to simplify things for end-users.

This may change in future if it's not working, but that's what we're trying now (as I think I probably said to you in Savannah). All the current Moodle Partner companies there in the US (Remote Learner, Classroom Revolution and Moodlerooms) are growing rapidly. I would personally much rather have three big, capable, experienced 24-hour companies than 100 one-man operators, and I know most people seeking professional Moodle Services would too.

If you want to do business under a Moodle brand, then joining up with one of the existing partners (as you did and others are doing) is a good approach and what I'd recommend to anyone else there. That *IS* "the way for others to be part of the professional team". Coordination then happens efficiently inside those companies and I don't have to be involved.

However if you want to go it alone with your own business then you're free to do this, of course, just as long as you mind the trademarks.

Moodle promotion etc is a separate issue. I'm sure most of us do a lot of that whether or not money is involved.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Steve Hyndman - Sunday, 6 August 2006, 9:40 PM

However if you want to go it alone with your own business then you're free to do this, of course, just as long as you mind the trademarks.

If anyone has any suggestions on how DI, or anyone else for that matter, can actually do that, with the sweeping way this trademark is being enforced, I would be interested in hearing suggestions.

I don't want to use DI as an example, so let's take my business as an example (kentuckyclassroom.com). Does anyone have a suggestion of what I could put on that site (while minding the trademark) to let people know that I provide moodle hosting and services?

Steve

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Robert Garza - Monday, 7 August 2006, 9:33 AM

Steve and DI, I'll take a stab at this.

First, my apologies to everyone before I speak. My 15 years of software-gun-for-hire has made me unique in the ways I view software development, software solutions and the software business in general. In fact recently, I was called 'grim' and 'fiber-less' by other Moodle members but I took no offense and I have great respect for their opinions. We all have different perspectives and access to solve problems. So I am sure I will be labeled still further. I am not idealistic or theoretical but I do have a passion for solving people's problems through software.

After many years of being a hired gun I decided to open my own shop. Since my wife is an Instructional Designer I decided to compliment her by looking at the educational arena. Since open source did not have very many restrictions I decide that would be a good place to start. I had already done one Moodle project before and it was interesting. Plus market competition was very limited (I’m in San Antonio, TX). The only 2 Moodle Partners then had pior established businesses and had Moodle as one of their many services. Although it seemed, based on their news sections, that they were not doing that much Moodle business. That still seems true even now. So I started Chimera Software LLC providing educational open-source services.

Initially my web site (http://www.chimerasoftware.com) was more Moodle-centric. During the past day I have changed it to more reflect my lack of Moodle Partner status. I now use Moodle as an example of my work and services. I may still be in violation but I will change the site as requested. Right now, I have a University client and 2 corporate clients on the horizon (hope they come through). I never told them I was a Moodle Partner just told them the virtues of the product...in most cases Moodle sells itself. So check out my website. Now, I have not asked permission from Martin or anyone at Moodle because at this time I had no desire to become a Moodle partner. Actually I do not have the time to pursue it…maybe in the future. Plus I figure, I am only doing Moodle a favor but listing it on my website. I guess I could have chosen another open-source product. But, I will submit a letter of permission to the Moodle Helpdesk in the near future.

So my business is actually marketing myself, my capabilities and my company and not Moodle. I have joined the Texas Computer Education Association (TCEA) and will be presenting a presentation on Moodle and it virtues at their next conference in Feb 2007. Last year they had 8,000 attendees so it looks promising. I have also joined the local chapter of the American Society of Training and Development (ASTD) and have found some interested clients there. I also attended the “Innovations in Learning” conference support by the University of Texas TeleCampus and talked to a few people about Moodle, once again there was some interest there.

In the end, Moodle is a product that I support and will suggest to as many people as I possibly can. It is up the customer to decide if my solution is valid and if I am capable of solving their problem. I make sure that people know that I am not a Moodle Partner and actually no one cares if I am or not. Their concern is if I can solve their problems and not if I solved it using ATutor or Dokeos or Moodle….or even Blackboard (but I wouldn't do that).

As for Moodle Partnership in the U.S., the problem is that each state has a different educational landscape, different rules and different politics. I appreciate the 3 Moodle Partners in the U.S. but they don’t offer me any insight to the Texas educational system at any level (K6, K9, K12, K16, High School or University). In fact in Texas, it seems that only the bleeding-edge people in educational arena and educators that have literally no budget have even heard of Moodle. (But there are a few Moodlers and they are pretty darn good.) Even then, the politics of system administrators usually trump all good intentions. It is a tough but I am making some headway because there is interest in Moodle in Texas and more than you would think.

Lastly, here is something else that I have not asked for Moodle’s permission: to start a Moodle Users Group. Here in Texas, we are spread far apart and trying to make more local Moodle connections would be very comforting. I have started a beta version of the concept at www.TexasMoodle.org. It is done in Drupal but with Moodle 1.6 out, it may be a better option. The goals of the user group are: (1)Promoting the use of Moodle in Texas, (2)Providing more local and regional hands-on support to Moodle Users of all levels, (3)Planning and having a Texas MoodleMoot and (4)Supporting Moodle.org. The last one would be donating any left over money from the Moot to Moodle.org.

In talking to other Texas Moodlers, they all think it is a great idea and would help them convince their employers or institutions to use Moodle. Some of them have said that a Moodle Partner would not be able to help them unless they were on an approved vendor list and in some cases you have to be a Texas-based operation. If a Moodle user group is something that is not permitted then I will take down the site. But as soon as I am ready to move from beta to production I will email the helpdesk for permission. That way they see the full impact of the idea and not some beta version of a concept. Right now, I don’t think the site is fully on the right track but I still think it is a great idea.

I guess the real questions are:

Is Moodle ready to have local or regional user groups?
Would a user group help or hurt Moodle?

I’ll leave those questions up for another discussion.

Martin, I will accept any judgments you have of anything I have done on the Internet. Please understand that myself and others (like Steve, DI) only have the best of intentions and I think you believe that already. I do understand and RESPECT your position and plans for the US market and your reasons. The only I could ask for, if possible, is to make those plans known (you may have and I missed them) so that I and others do not accidentally interfere and you may find that we are even willing to help.

So hopefully I have minded the trademarks, if I haven’t then tell me what I need to change.

Steve and DI, my suggestion is this - focus your business on YOU and your capabilities and not products. I’m sure your current customers have chosen you and you future customers will choose you because of YOU and your talents and not because you support one product or another.

But that is my 2 cents.

Rob

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Steve Hyndman - Monday, 7 August 2006, 8:51 PM

Great post Rob and I agree 100% about building a business around YOU and not the products. The ironic thing is that my business hasn't suffered one bit as a result of the cease-and-desist notice. I have all the business I can handle and have had to turn down several opportunities to provide Moodle services since the cease-and-desist notice. All this has really done is to cause me to be a lot less enthusiastic about spreading the word about Moodle.

In fact, over the past couple of years, I have been teaching Moodle as part of my graduate education technology classes....around 100 students per term, times 3 terms per year, equals over 600 Kentucky teachers/administrators who have learned Moodle in my classes. Since receiving the cease-and-desist notice, I have spent the last few weeks completely writing Moodle out of my lessons. I will no longer cover it in my classes. Over the past couple of years, I have done Moodle presentations at 4 international conferences (and several State and local conferences/workshops)....my last one was at the UK MoodleMoot a couple of weeks ago. That was my last Moodle presentation at a conference...I will do no more. I published two papers on using Frontpage to create ePortfolios and was in the process of writing one about an easier way to build ePortfolios using Moodle...I've scrapped that paper now and will not submit it for publication.

Why am I doing this?....it's real simple. Before the cease-and-desist notice, I really did feel like I was a valuable part of the "Moodle Community" and I was motivated to spread the word far and wide. After receiving the cease-and-desist notice, I realized that I was really just a "sales person" and "free labor" for Moodle.com...and that doesn't work for me. Again, I have no ill-will for any of the Moodle Partners. I think they provide a valuable service and I hope their businesses are very successful, but I'm not going to be a salesman for a market that I am not allowed to participate in.

Again, that's just me...I realize I'm more stubborn that most

Steve

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Darren Cooper - Monday, 7 August 2006, 11:00 PM

Steve,

I really do think that is a shame, I hope you reconsider that decision, it would be a real shame. I think a product such as Moodle need people like yourself.

I still think you are:
Quote: a valuable part of the "Moodle Community"
As this dialogue has shown, you have addressed issues that touch lots of us. I have a learnt a lot by going through this thread and it has helped me to define my roadmap and the way forwards. So I would like to thank you and all the others that have helped clarify this issue.

But I really do think turning you back on Moodle because of this issue is a real shame your first post back in 2004 and the many since have helped me and no doubt many others too, for which I am very grateful. I appreciate your input, partner or not, moodle logo or not. I "think" I understand both sides of the issue but I feel it's time to put a lid on it and get back to doing what we all normaly do, Moodle. If you do leave good luck and thanks but I hope you'll stick around.

Yes I'm fairly new here and have possibly overlooked something, I've also gone through differences with people in this community and am happy to say we have managed to find a solution that we either agree on or agree to disagree on and then get on with things. I have learned a lot in the process of these debates. I admit, issues that were not as significant as this issue but still issues and differences. Once again, I think your leaving would be a real loss to the Moodle community. Please reconsider carefully before you proceed with your Quote "stubborn" decision.

Regards
Darren

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martín Langhoff - Tuesday, 8 August 2006, 5:13 AM

Steve, have you considered that you can't really use the Apache, PHP or Linux trademarks without explicit permission?

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by D.I. von Briesen - Tuesday, 8 August 2006, 6:13 AM

Hey, Steve- stop being stubborn.

I've been married for 15 years, and have 5 kids. I don't like all of them all of the time, but I ALWAYS love 'em! Don't let something like this that you disagree with change your life so much. If I can't appeal to you on heart grounds (i.e. let your heart overpower your id) then I'll give you a business argument:

If you let things bug you like this, where you incline away from your natural course and actions, and give energy and mind to things that are not useful, you are letting those things have "free rent on your brain".

You really wanna give free rent?

Nah... You can love moodle and the community and support it - but dislike the letter. But don't give the letter free mental real estate. thoughtful

Cheers!

d.i.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martin Dougiamas - Tuesday, 8 August 2006, 10:27 AM

I'm seriously glad your business is going well for you, that's great!

As I've said repeatedly for weeks to you, none of this Trademark stuff is supposed to prevent people running their business using Moodle. Yet you still post FUD like this when I know you know better.

If only you'd just replied to the letter when you'd got it to discuss it with me, instead of immediately posting misleading and incorrect information all over the internet. I even said hi to you in person at the UK Moot but you ignored me.

As a result I do feel rather like you are not interested in resolving this issue but actually prefer to be engaged in smearing Moodle.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by N Hansen - Tuesday, 8 August 2006, 7:58 PM

Steve-I can say one thing for sure-even if you weren't advertising them-I certainly wouldn't come to you if I needed Moodle services. With your bitter attitude about Martin's choice in how he runs his business, I wouldn't trust you one bit to run a Moodle installation and not try and sabotage my site just to turn me against Moodle too. And certainly if I needed support, I would now know you don't have a good relationship with the Moodle developers or the people in these forums now that you could harness to my business's advantage.

To me it is completely clear that Martin has chosen not to monopolize the market but to simply go after one segment of it. If he had chosen to monopolize the market he would have gone after you and every other non-Moodle partner and demanded a 10% royalty, but he didn't, he just said stop using my trademark to run your business.

I can tell you that I have never used a Moodle partner myself, simply because the Moodle partners all offer basically more or less the same services for the same (high-for me) prices. But I probably am not alone and there are times when Moodle users like me could benefit from non-partner services that diverge from the partner model.

I think you have burned your bridges now. Good luck on staying afloat in the river.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Steve Hyndman - Tuesday, 8 August 2006, 8:43 PM

Thanks N....I'm sorry to lose you as a potential customer wink

Steve

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Steve Hyndman - Tuesday, 8 August 2006, 8:42 PM

I'll say one thing for you...you are presistent in your "spin". The FUD you said I posted....tell me....what's FUD about it?

You continue to say that people can run a business "using Moodle". That has never been at issue. The issue is....people are prevented by your trademark enforcement from running a business supporting, hosting, etc., Moodle. You posted a link to my site saying I know better...tell me....where does it say on that site that I host or support Moodle? Are you telling me now that I can say Moodle on my site...isn't that what got us here in the first place? That's the issue...you can try to spin it and muddy the waters all you want, but you and I both know the issue.

Steve

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Darren Cooper - Tuesday, 8 August 2006, 9:18 PM

Steve,
let's put a lid on this it really is not going anywhere other than round in downwards circles quite rapidly. There are always two sides to the arguement and I think we have heard enough of both to decide for ourselves what has lead to this unfortunate misunderstanding and how to prevent it in the future.

Thanks for pointing out those other sites misusing the trademerks without persimission or maybe they do have permission I'm sure someone at the Moodle HQ either knows about this or will follow that up.

Steve as you can see, I am not the only one who things this is the right place for you to be as part of this community. I still think it's a shame that such a trivial (in my eyes) issue has started this rather emotional landslide.
But I ask you to reconsider you stand, review you motives and get back to doing what you do best, which is obviously not what is happening here.

For the record, I have nothing to do with you nor with Moodle other than I admire both. These are observations from a very neutral observer who does not like what he is seeing.

Darren

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Steve Hyndman - Tuesday, 8 August 2006, 9:30 PM

Daren,

You're right, this is going around in circles...thanks for the post. This is my last post in this thread.

I'll continue to use Moodle for my own purposes (although I'll no longer teach or advocate it to others like I have in the past) and I'll continue to "pay" for my personal use by contributing and helping others here in the forums when I can.

Signing off of this thread.....

Steve

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Frances Bell - Thursday, 10 August 2006, 3:58 PM

I agree that this thread has probably outlived its usefulness (but glad that these issues were raised). I'd just like to record my appreciation of Steve's contributions to moodle.org forums and his presentation at UK Moodlemoot 2005. I met him socially there and enjoyed the experience.
Unfortunately, he won't be picking up this message as he is no longer enrolled. I, for one, am very sorry that he is no longer on this course/forum.
It's quite a challenge for this community to sustain critical debate about the direction Moodle takes. Let's keep working at it.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Paul Nijbakker - Thursday, 17 August 2006, 5:00 PM

I also met Steve here on moodle.org and at the UK MoodleMoot 2005. He was an amiable guy. I am very sorry that the miscommunication that lies at the bottom of this whole issue caused him to become disappointed/vengeful. The way I understand it, Steve thought that as a prominent champion of Moodle and helpful member of the community he was entitled to special consideration and when he received the e-mail at the top of the thread he felt put in a place that he did not like. I understand, but do not condone his reaction. I hope that as a result of this regrettable affair, there will be clearer/more detailed instructions about the use of the Moodle trademark, so that we can avoid similar unpleasantness in the future.

Rgrds,
Paul.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by N Hansen - Thursday, 17 August 2006, 6:42 PM

True Paul, but note that the letter was not from Martin himself. Obviously Martin had one of his employees, who may not even have been aware of who Steve was, search for patent violators and send a form letter to them. That is perfectly normal. It's the best use of staff time rather than have Martin do it. If I had been in Steve's position, the fact that the letter wasn't signed by Martin would have been a big clue to me that Martin may not have been even aware that the letter had been sent to Martin. I agree that if he had emailed Martin directly to ask for a clarification, things might have turned out differently. But he chose his position early on by publicly getting angry at Martin for this and it seems he dug in and stayed with it.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Tony Hursh - Thursday, 17 August 2006, 11:52 PM

We need to be careful to distinguish trademarks, copyrights, and patents. They're different things.

Trademark: you can't take GeneriCola, put it in a container labeled Coca Cola, and sell it.

Copyright: you can't take a Coca Cola commercial, hire a voice actor to overdub all mentions of Coca Cola with GeneriCola, then broadcast it, or take a Coca Cola magazine ad, photoshop in the GeneriCola logo, and print it.

Patent: The Coca Cola company claims to have invented the whole idea of cola, and tries to stop the makers of GeneriCola from producing cola drinks of any kind regardless of labeling (this one isn't actually true, of course).

Trademarks are supposed to protect consumers by assuring them that they're getting the genuine article, and protect companies from having their reputations damaged by others passing off substandard goods under the real company's name, copyrights are supposed to protect writers, artists, and musicians from having their creative works used without authorization, and patents are supposed to encourage inventors by granting them a monopoly on an entire field for a limited time. In practice, things don't always work out according to plan, but they're still different things with different intentions (and different rules for enforcement).

I'm not a lawyer, and don't even play one on the net, but that's my (probably naive) understanding of how it works.

Addendum: Adobe would probably be upset by my use of "photoshop" as a verb above, as that's one way to lose a trademark.

Photoshop is a registered trademark of Adobe Systems, Inc., Coca Cola is a registered trademark of The Coca Cola Company, and I don't think GeneriCola actually exists, but I apologize to them if it does.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Frances Bell - Friday, 18 August 2006, 5:58 AM

Thanks Tony,
That is really helpful for comparisons with commercial products and companies but how does it work for OSS?

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Michael Blake - Friday, 18 August 2006, 10:28 AM

As the sender of the original email, let me clarify the position Moodle takes on this issue.

The word Moodle can be freely used in most contexts with one exception: it must not be used in promoting or selling Moodle commercial services. Commercial services include activities such as Moodle hosting, consulting, support etc. Generally only Moodle Partners are permitted to use the trademark to sell commercial services.

We don't have any problem with people using the word/trademark/logo in non-commercial contexts.

Simply stated, the restriction applies only if you are providing Moodle Services
AND charging fees for these services.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Marc Grober - Thursday, 5 June 2008, 3:16 AM

As I tried to work my way through this discussion (for a number of reasons, including what I might wish to do in future with Moodle) I came across this web site: http://teachers4schools.com/moodle/
These folks use a concatenated logo:

and sell commercial Moodle services (indeed, Chick hawked the same in the Moodle forums).
So can I do the same thing (with or without asking permission, with or without becoming a Moodle Partner)?
Did these folks receive a trademark letter and if so with what result and if not, why not?

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martin Dougiamas - Tuesday, 8 August 2006, 9:23 PM

Steve, I'll spell this out for you one more time then I won't be engaging in this very long disussion any further as it's going nowhere, so please read this carefully and maybe have a sleep on it.

Yes, I'm being completely consistent about this and have been for some years (see the Moodle license).

You are not being consistent. Please contrast the following:

You say on your blog "Can anyone suggest ways to build a business when you are prohibited from letting people know exactly what it is you do?"
The answer is and always has been "Set up your business site so it doesn't use the Moodle trademark in an unapproved way". I know you know this because that's exactly what you (eventually) did to your site. It still explains what you do quite clearly.

So why are you *still* posting all over the internet about this issue? As you said above, following the trademark guidelines hasn't hurt your business at all, so what's your motivation?

I'll let the reader draw their own conclusion and retire from this discussion. I have Moodle 1.7 to get finished so that you can offer it to your hosting customers.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Don Schwartz - Tuesday, 8 August 2006, 4:38 AM

"Lastly, here is something else that I have not asked for Moodle’s permission: to start a Moodle Users Group. Here in Texas, we are spread far apart and trying to make more local Moodle connections would be very comforting. I have started a beta version of the concept at www.TexasMoodle.org. It is done in Drupal but with Moodle 1.6 out, it may be a better option. The goals of the user group are: (1)Promoting the use of Moodle in Texas, (2)Providing more local and regional hands-on support to Moodle Users of all levels, (3)Planning and having a Texas MoodleMoot and (4)Supporting Moodle.org. The last one would be donating any left over money from the Moot to Moodle.org. "

Rob, I asked Martin the exact same thing at the NE Moot and he was wildly in favor of user groups. A few of us in New England plan on firing one up for the fall. In speaking with Martin I did ask about making this part of Moodle.org but the farther I get from the Moot the more I think it makes sense for the group to be disconnected from Moodle itself. Let's from our regionals and have a national meeting in 2007. ds

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Robert Garza - Tuesday, 8 August 2006, 7:01 AM

Don,

I figured there had to be someone else thinking of the idea. But my concern and I am sure it is yours too - is fragmenting the current Moodle group. I believe in the idea that "the more heads then the better the ideas" but I also know that every country, region, state, province and city has there own unique educational problems.

The idea of the Moodle group as a whole and at the same time separated into different user groups will be a delicate balance. I think there needs to be a structure to the groups as a whole so that we all support each other and are able to interlink each other. The prudent choice is to allow the Core Moodle Team to formulate a structure and to create a Moodle Users Group charter template with some basic rules.

There probably should be several things that would be common to all Moodle User Groups - logo concepts, support of Moodle.org, group naming (for instance I used TexasMoodle as the URL and I call the site TexMUG - those were off the top of my head) and other things so that is would be easy to find the local or regional group. But like I said I am still working on a concept (what I have up took about 2 hours) because I never want any user group member to ever lose sight or connection to Moodle.org.

The other idea I had for a user group was to have a repository of courses or teaching objects that would be a teacher's exchange of Moodle materials. It would give new Moodlers a jump start in building their courses, especially if they are in the same educational arena. Another is that we would have regional and national awards for the best courses created in Moodle but that is far down the road.

So right now I will still continue, as my work and family allow me, to develop a possible concept. And then submit the idea to the Moodle Help Desk.

If you are developing a concept too please forward me the address.

Lastly...a national meeting would be very cool. I'll let the US Moodle Partners tackle that one.

Rob

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by A. T. Wyatt - Tuesday, 8 August 2006, 7:41 AM

I would like to suggest that, particularly with regard to Texas, that we consider contacting TCEA and working together on this. Since I know a board member very well, I would be happy to start a conversation. Having a large group such as TCEA as a partner could be very helpful with regard to starting a repository of teacher courses, or awards, etc.

What do you think?

atw

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Robert Garza - Tuesday, 8 August 2006, 11:23 AM

Hey A.T.,

TCEA is exactly where all of this should start. I was talking to another person, I believe his name is Ken Task, and he had written a charter/bylaws document for an Open Source SIG in TCEA. He also has a web sight supporting open-source in Texas education (http://www.sosoftexas.org). Check out the link to the SOS Portal.

Hope to see you at TCEA 2007. I already have a booth for my little company which will be about 50 feet behind Apple Inc. Considering the latest events, I should have picked the booth across the aisle from Blackboard and hired someone to taunt them. It is not Moodle's style but it would be a bit fun.

I still might be presenting at TCEA, I was just informed that there was a mix up in one of the lists and that they do not have a place or time slot for me. They are working on setting up a thin-client lab and asked if I could present there. So it looks like I am almost there and hopefully I can introduce more people to Moodle.

If I knew for sure that we could have enough Moodlers show up to TCEA 2007 then we might be able to piggyback a Moot at the same time. But time is growing short and that might be a tremendous undertaking.

Rob

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martin Dougiamas - Tuesday, 8 August 2006, 10:00 AM

Note this is not related to this discussion about trademarks because a user group is not the sort of commercial service as you find on moodle.com.

It's more an extension of what you see here on moodle.org and the more of that the merrier!

No need to ask permission for such stuff!

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Nigel Morris-Cotterill - Wednesday, 9 August 2006, 3:44 PM

I know that this reply is attached to quite an old message but it seemed to be the most appropriate place after reading the whole thread, which seemed to become diverted.

The whole thread is very valuable but it seems to me that everyone is in effect arguing pretty much the same point but from different directions.

If I have understood correctly, Martin (thanks for Moodle, incidentally) does not object to any website bearing the slogal "powered by Moodle" or similar nor using the Moodle logo (nor, as it seems almost impossible to locate and replace the Moodle favicon).

Nor does he object to anyone installing Moodle, inserting their content and charging for it.

Nor does he object to anyone writing content for any third party's installation and being paid for it.

Nor, unlike e.g. some commercial database developers including, incidentally MySQL, does he say that royalties are due if the use of their database is an essential component of using your service and you require its installation as a precursor to the intallation of your own software.

What he does object to is when people offer a service which is in effect a generic service (hosting, customisation, etc) and adds the word "Moodle" to their marketing.

And there is logic to, in particular, the complaint about the hosting service because the host is, in effect, a reseller - getting the product for nothing and charging a monthly, annual, etc licence fee for using it. Another way of looking at it is that the host attracts business by saying "if you buy from us, we will save you the trouble of installing Moodle for nothing as an effective inducement."

The simplest way to resolve this is for Martin to provide a defined list (for present purposes I'll call them "retained terms" of what he regards as Moodle Services which may be described as such only by Moodle Partners. However, there is an inherent problem in that it is highly unlikely that any Court would support an action to prevent someone offering "Learn to use Moodle" courses, or "Customising Moodle" e-books or even webpages called "Setting up Moodle." Whilst they may be restrained if the content were copied from e.g. Moodle.org, the mere use of I suspect that a Court would say that preventing the use of the name in such a way would be in restraint of trade.

Thus the retained terms must be more than simply generic phrases or phrases that are in common use. It has to be remembered that even Microsoft could not get consistent judgments across various jurisdictions against Lindows (as was).

I agree that Martin has to protect his IP and it's not a question of whether but how, and how to do so without it requiring an unwieldy process which takes up his time so much.

A clause in the license saying "The following terms are service or trade marks (depending on jurisdiction) of [ ] and may be used only by authorised Moodle Partners:

1
2
3

may work but should be checked with a couple of IP lawyers in different jurisdictions.

Nigel Morris-Cotterill

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Julian Ridden - Thursday, 10 August 2006, 7:53 PM

Nigel,

I have been reading this forum with great interest since it's inception but up until now have resisted 'joining the fray'.

You have voiced my thoughts for more eloquently than I ever could have. So ill just add my 'Ditto' to your post.

This has also been my understanding and if anything, I hope Martin can just take your post and add it as FAQ's

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by D.I. von Briesen - Friday, 4 August 2006, 11:41 PM

Umm... now you have to give 10% of the annual cost of a vanity plate to moodle.org, right? big grin

d.i.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Max Zúñiga - Thursday, 27 July 2006, 8:18 PM

Don Schwartz said:
''Max, Your short reply is what is sad.

I just read every post in this extremely important thread because it applies to my business. The thread is full of sincere and businesslike discussion as it should be.

In fact, this thread has clarified what I've always assumed and how we've approached working with Moodle as a non-partner.

Then you top it off by saying nothing of value. As my Dad always told me, "If you have nothing good to say then don't say anything".

John Cage,scottish poet said:

"I have nothing to say and I am saying it !, and that is poetry "

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Don Schwartz - Friday, 28 July 2006, 1:48 AM

"I have nothing to say and I am saying it !, and that is poetry "

Max, My appologies. I was informed that you had been active in the thread early on and my eyes missed it.

My dad always said If you have nothing good to say then say nothing. My wife says if I have nothing good to say nothing has changed.

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Max Zúñiga - Sunday, 30 July 2006, 11:09 PM

Ok,Don
I have this to say:
Thanks. big grin

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by dave cormier - Thursday, 3 August 2006, 9:28 AM

someone is posting the link on every major edblog around the internet and talking about a moodle.com monopoly. grrr... with no name associated with it. i don't believe there's a monopoly here...

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Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by amber joe - Monday, 3 January 2011, 8:49 PM

I only wanted to know about the trademark registration process, I want to get my company's name trademarked as well as attach a logo with it suggestions are dearly welcome. I also tried to find out someting by myself and found some useful information on below mentioned link but still wanna confirm from some expert in this field.

___________________________

trademark registration : http://www.trademark-sentinel.com/blog/check-the-status-of-your-trademark-application/

trademark logo : http://www.trademark-sentinel.com/blog/the-consequences-of-using-the-trademark-registration-symbol-%C2%AE-if-your-mark-is-not-registered/

entity designation : http://www.trademark-sentinel.com/blog/should-i-include-an-entity-designation-such-as-inc-or-llc-in-my-trademark-application/

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