I was trying to decide between the reference to Hamlet or a reference to Huxley's work (A brave new Moodle?) to initiate this thread and eventually made up my mind for Hamlet because I think it is more transparent.
This is just a posting whose provocative title that has two main goals:
a) To inform people who might not be informed about what has happened.
b) To try to elicit some answers from people in the know about why has this happened.
a) Something that I think is unprecedented has happened in moodle.org. A thread originally called "Art Teacher loses job after trip to museum" has been eliminated (hidden from view) by one of the moderators after someone requested that the discussion be shut down. No explanation has been provided so far as to why this seemingly drastic measure has been adopted. My personal opinion is that this is enormously patronizing and shows a clear lack of respect for the participants in that discussion and for the members of the Moodle community in general.
b) I would like to know who requested that this thread be hidden and on what grounds. I would also like to know whether Martin Dougiamas is aware of this decision and what he thinks about it. If Martin D. is not involved, I would like to ask why there is a selected click of moodlers that can have a discussion shut down when they decide it. Can any moodler request the moderators that a discussion be put to an end when s/he considers that it has gone on for too long? Is there a clear social hierarchy in moodle.org that entitles some members of some sort of an elite moodlers group to decide when the others must stop talking about a certain issue?
I can totally understand that Moodle is governed by some sort of "benevolent dictatorship" when it comes to software development. I can understand that Martin D. and a core of Moodle developers have a bigger say in what direction the development of future versions of Moodle must go or in whether a particular module or addition becomes standard or not. But it is hard for me to understand and accept that a small click of moodlers can also decide what kinds of discussions are appropriate in the *Open* Social Forum or not, what discussions adhere to the principles of social-constructivism, or how long can a particular discussion go on. If you are happy to belong to a community like this, fine, but I'm not.
So that unpleasant incidents like this do not happen again, could somebody (that has the power to do so) state some clear rules for participation in the open social forum?
It looks like moodle.org has ceased to be the kind of "hippy" (I don't mean any disrespect with the use of this expression, take it in its most possitive interpretation) or libertarian community where there are no clear rulers or norms and people can live harmoniously without any police or "state". If there is a state and there are some rulers, is Moodle a state governed by the rule of law? If so, what is the law so that if we decide to stay we know what our conduct is expected to be?
Josep, I agree with you 100%.
I was very surprised to see that the thread has been hidden from view.
In my view both the fact that it has been hidden is wrong as well as the WAY it has been done - apparently without any explanation or justification at all.
When I read the thread it was long and discursive but it was also passionate and civil. I can not imagine why such a thread should be unilaterally shut down. Even more surprising to me is that it was done secretly without telling anyone that is was being done and why it was being done.
I have been an active member of the Moodle community for several years now, and this is the first time that I remember that this has ever happened, and it goes against everything that I had come to understand about the values and procedures that Moodle and its community stand for - openness, clear communication, fairness, and respect for differences, whether that be differences in the people here or differences in opinion.
Such high-sounding principles are never to be divorced from reality and I would not rule out a kind of "censorship" in certain extreme cases, such as when racist or other prejudiced and hurtful comments are made. But I never saw that happen in the thread in question, and, if it had been, any decision to censor should have been explained to the Moodle community.
In any case, if there was an objectionable post that I just missed it would have been only one in a very long thread and it should have been the only one to have been "pulled". The rest of the thread was full of interesting ideas and passionate discourse that in my opinion we should be proud to provide a platform for within the Moodle community. When I was reading it I was thinking how it indicated that our community understood that as educators we can not divorce ourselves from social issues and pretend that we can foolishly just think about what goes on in our classrooms.
Maybe I was wrong.
I am confused at why and how this has happened. I feel strongly about this and unless this is explained and justified my feelings about the community will be forever changed.
I was very surprised to see that the thread has been hidden from view.
In my view both the fact that it has been hidden is wrong as well as the WAY it has been done - apparently without any explanation or justification at all.
When I read the thread it was long and discursive but it was also passionate and civil. I can not imagine why such a thread should be unilaterally shut down. Even more surprising to me is that it was done secretly without telling anyone that is was being done and why it was being done.
I have been an active member of the Moodle community for several years now, and this is the first time that I remember that this has ever happened, and it goes against everything that I had come to understand about the values and procedures that Moodle and its community stand for - openness, clear communication, fairness, and respect for differences, whether that be differences in the people here or differences in opinion.
Such high-sounding principles are never to be divorced from reality and I would not rule out a kind of "censorship" in certain extreme cases, such as when racist or other prejudiced and hurtful comments are made. But I never saw that happen in the thread in question, and, if it had been, any decision to censor should have been explained to the Moodle community.
In any case, if there was an objectionable post that I just missed it would have been only one in a very long thread and it should have been the only one to have been "pulled". The rest of the thread was full of interesting ideas and passionate discourse that in my opinion we should be proud to provide a platform for within the Moodle community. When I was reading it I was thinking how it indicated that our community understood that as educators we can not divorce ourselves from social issues and pretend that we can foolishly just think about what goes on in our classrooms.
Maybe I was wrong.
I am confused at why and how this has happened. I feel strongly about this and unless this is explained and justified my feelings about the community will be forever changed.
Let's not be too hasty Josep. Perhaps the thread may yet be made unhidden.
I was asked by private message (and no doubt others were)" If you have a good reason for requesting it to be moved back to the Open Social Forum, please let me know."
My reply was:
" I do think that this topic should be moved back to the Open Social forum for the following reasons:
1. I know of no other case of public discussion content on Moodle being removed without warning or explanation.
2. Though the topic aroused debate the main participants did not flame (as I understand it) but engaged in true dialogue (i.e. they listened to each other and were open to having their minds changed as a result of the dialogue.
3. The most dubious posting (IMHO) was from Martin Langhoff, one of the people who requested that the topic be closed.
4. This topic will/would have died a natural death - the peremptory removal of it ensures it will have a much longer life (martyrs never die
) "
Maybe the thread has not died but has been temporarily incarcerated.
I would humbly propose the 'Art Teachers' Law, as Godwin's law did not apply here (see Quirk's Exception , "It is considered poor form to arbitrarily raise such a comparison with the motive of ending the thread"):
Art Teacher's Law
The only way to get people to shut up about a hidden thread is to let it wither in the light of day.
I was asked by private message (and no doubt others were)" If you have a good reason for requesting it to be moved back to the Open Social Forum, please let me know."
My reply was:
" I do think that this topic should be moved back to the Open Social forum for the following reasons:
1. I know of no other case of public discussion content on Moodle being removed without warning or explanation.
2. Though the topic aroused debate the main participants did not flame (as I understand it) but engaged in true dialogue (i.e. they listened to each other and were open to having their minds changed as a result of the dialogue.
3. The most dubious posting (IMHO) was from Martin Langhoff, one of the people who requested that the topic be closed.
4. This topic will/would have died a natural death - the peremptory removal of it ensures it will have a much longer life (martyrs never die
) "Maybe the thread has not died but has been temporarily incarcerated.
I would humbly propose the 'Art Teachers' Law, as Godwin's law did not apply here (see Quirk's Exception , "It is considered poor form to arbitrarily raise such a comparison with the motive of ending the thread"):
Art Teacher's Law
The only way to get people to shut up about a hidden thread is to let it wither in the light of day.
Well why was this done via private message when it should have been done publicly? Why were you asked about it but clearly Josep, who was one of he main contributors to the thread, was not?
As you say, it was true dialogue and there was no flaming. I also thought Martin Langhoff's request for it to be closed was dubious, as he had not participated in the discussion and came in right at the end with what seemed like a gratuitous comment given his clear lack of interest in the discussion - why did he not simply not read the thread? Many of us were actually finding it quite engaging and interesting.
Now that this has happened once, I think we as a community need to think up some guidelines for the forum facilitators and put them very clearly in the Moodle docs so everyone knows what is expected of them. It is quite unfair to expect certain standards of behavior from ordinary forum users but not to have similar guidelines for forum facilitators.
As you say, it was true dialogue and there was no flaming. I also thought Martin Langhoff's request for it to be closed was dubious, as he had not participated in the discussion and came in right at the end with what seemed like a gratuitous comment given his clear lack of interest in the discussion - why did he not simply not read the thread? Many of us were actually finding it quite engaging and interesting.
Now that this has happened once, I think we as a community need to think up some guidelines for the forum facilitators and put them very clearly in the Moodle docs so everyone knows what is expected of them. It is quite unfair to expect certain standards of behavior from ordinary forum users but not to have similar guidelines for forum facilitators.
Well, to be honest I received exactly the same message that Frances received. I also immediately responded requesting from the person who sent it to me to tell me who was responsible for shuting down the discussion and what were the motives. I have not received any explanation yet.
I had not really paid that much attention to the comment that the thread could be reopened (literally I was told "If you have a good reason for requesting it to be moved back to the Open Social Forum, please let me know.") because I thought it was purely rethorical. I mean, precisely in the last messages of the thread I and other people had objected to ending the thread. Why would I have to provide a "good reason" to keep a thread open? I mean, isn't the default case that threads are open? What I did was to request that they gave me a good reason for closing it.
Then this morning I saw that in the other thread started by Frances people were starting to talk about these issues and decided to post this message. I might have been hasty and I apologize for this but I think that, whether there was a real possibility of the thread being moved back at my request or not, it is legitimate to try to clarify publicly why it was shut down in the first place. I find it amazing that this could have happened and that's why I think that this needs to be clarified publicly. I don't want to harm the person who technically hid the thread because because I know that this person acted in good faith.
What I really want is for the people who actually requested that the thread be shut down to have the dignity of coming out in the open and try to justify their behavior. I think it is very "ugly" to use whatever influence you have on the moderator to have a thread you don't like shut down.
I had not really paid that much attention to the comment that the thread could be reopened (literally I was told "If you have a good reason for requesting it to be moved back to the Open Social Forum, please let me know.") because I thought it was purely rethorical. I mean, precisely in the last messages of the thread I and other people had objected to ending the thread. Why would I have to provide a "good reason" to keep a thread open? I mean, isn't the default case that threads are open? What I did was to request that they gave me a good reason for closing it.
Then this morning I saw that in the other thread started by Frances people were starting to talk about these issues and decided to post this message. I might have been hasty and I apologize for this but I think that, whether there was a real possibility of the thread being moved back at my request or not, it is legitimate to try to clarify publicly why it was shut down in the first place. I find it amazing that this could have happened and that's why I think that this needs to be clarified publicly. I don't want to harm the person who technically hid the thread because because I know that this person acted in good faith.
What I really want is for the people who actually requested that the thread be shut down to have the dignity of coming out in the open and try to justify their behavior. I think it is very "ugly" to use whatever influence you have on the moderator to have a thread you don't like shut down.
I don't think you are hasty in raising the topic but rather hope that you might be hasty in assuming the thread is hidden forever.
I agree that we should know why the decision has been taken and what it means about the governance of Moodle.org.
This feels like a pivotal moment in Moodle.org that has been undergoing many other changes this year, big growth in number of partners, Moodle sites, integrations, big projects.
It would be such a pity if the implications of these changes became something we could not talk about. I think that a bit more openness on change is indicated.
I agree that we should know why the decision has been taken and what it means about the governance of Moodle.org.
This feels like a pivotal moment in Moodle.org that has been undergoing many other changes this year, big growth in number of partners, Moodle sites, integrations, big projects.
It would be such a pity if the implications of these changes became something we could not talk about. I think that a bit more openness on change is indicated.
Well I am reflecting on a comment made by James in the other thread you started: now I am thinking "perhaps this is not the first time this has happened, and this has been going on already but no-one has noticed it yet?"
And if people feel this loss of trust they will not feel that there is a real communication going on in these forums and may just stop coming here.
And if people feel this loss of trust they will not feel that there is a real communication going on in these forums and may just stop coming here.
That is a very good question Tim. I am certainly not aware of any other threads being removed, but it's one that could easily be answered by the facilitators.
Of course they may not be unhappy for people to move on.
Of course they may not be unhappy for people to move on.
I got the same message, and wondered why it was felt that I for one had been informed it had been removed. Others I know who participated in the thread were not even given notice that it had been removed. So I am curious as to why I was one of the people who was notified, whereas others weren't. What encoded message in that am I missing? I replied to the message by asking what good reason there was for removing it, to which I have received absolutely no answer.
It's not the thread's presence or absence that concerns me, but the process that happened. Why should I be asked to waste my time drafting a reason it should be reinstated when I am not privy to the grounds on which it was removed in the first place? I don't even need to invoke Nazis to explain why this is unfair; what the US government is doing with the detainees at Guantanamo is the same-there are no clear rules under which they are being held and the government won' t let them see the evidence they have against them.
It's not the thread's presence or absence that concerns me, but the process that happened. Why should I be asked to waste my time drafting a reason it should be reinstated when I am not privy to the grounds on which it was removed in the first place? I don't even need to invoke Nazis to explain why this is unfair; what the US government is doing with the detainees at Guantanamo is the same-there are no clear rules under which they are being held and the government won' t let them see the evidence they have against them.
Right.
If people want to read the thread and decide for themselves, it is still available via the Google cache.
If people want to read the thread and decide for themselves, it is still available via the Google cache.
I didn't get a message
. Who was it from? Was Big D watching? It is his server and has been taking a pounding lately. But why was were the messages private? It sounds like spies and conspiracies, and the grassy knoll
Psst,
Don't mention the art teacher.
I think it is not as important to know who the message was from as it is to know something like this can have happened. I honestly believe that the moderator was simply instrumental here and might have felt compelled/intimidated by the particular status or social prestige of the person who made the request. I think it is more interesting to know who it was that had the power to have a thread shut down, like this. Being an excellent developer or a very helpful person in the forum discussions entitles you to become a little dictator in the community and decide when a thread has to die?
You supect power, lurking behind the scenes, a kuromaku, a puller of strings? A Spook? To what issue will this come?
Between you are me, are we talking Martin we are moodle Langhoff?
I am sure whoever it is will enlighten us soon
Tim
Between you are me, are we talking Martin we are moodle Langhoff
?I am sure whoever it is will enlighten us soon
Tim
Well, since you are encouraging me to loosen my tongue, I'm thinking at about two persons: Martin Langhoff and/or Julian Ridden. Only because they were the two people who spoke more vehemently about the need to end the discussion. I have no evidence that any of them actually requested the moderator to shut down the discussion and hide the thread. I'm just inferring that this is what might have happened. I don't think the moderator would have made this decision if the person or persons requesting this were a couple of newby moodlers. If someone whose judgement you trust asks you to do something, you are more likely to do it without giving it a second thought. If am wrong, they can come forward and make me feel really bad for drawing the wrong conclusions. I will publicly apologize.
Since no explanation for this whole fiasco has come forth yet, I'm just trying to make sense of what could have happened. Of all the conspiracy theories that I can come up with, this is the one that seems to me to be less damaging. I wish the people involved had the courage to defend what they've done publicly and tried to restore the "good feelings" and general Moodle groovyness they were supposedly trying to protect.
Since no explanation for this whole fiasco has come forth yet, I'm just trying to make sense of what could have happened. Of all the conspiracy theories that I can come up with, this is the one that seems to me to be less damaging. I wish the people involved had the courage to defend what they've done publicly and tried to restore the "good feelings" and general Moodle groovyness they were supposedly trying to protect.
Think of the time difference Josep - they might be asleep or on the beach after working hard at the Conference 
You are a Spaniard - what happened to mañana?
You are a Spaniard - what happened to mañana?
You are totally right. My bad. Mañana será otro día.
I was one of the persons who had favoured that this discussion should be 'closed' but never 'removed'.
In fact Joseph and i had exchanged a few ideas about this. I thought it was losing relevance so I chipped in my view (which, in the spirit of open forum, was neither meant to be subscribed by anyone nor could anyone question my right to express my view that it should be closed. It was simply my opinion, nothing more nothing less)
and even i recieved that message which i thought was a case of banging the stick when the snake had already disappeared into the hole.
I feel it should be available for viewing for everyone. Why through google? we ain't thieves to use a backdoor entry.
In fact Joseph and i had exchanged a few ideas about this. I thought it was losing relevance so I chipped in my view (which, in the spirit of open forum, was neither meant to be subscribed by anyone nor could anyone question my right to express my view that it should be closed. It was simply my opinion, nothing more nothing less)
and even i recieved that message which i thought was a case of banging the stick when the snake had already disappeared into the hole.
I feel it should be available for viewing for everyone. Why through google? we ain't thieves to use a backdoor entry.
I respect your feeling that it should have been closed, although I fail to see any justification for closing the thread let alone removing it. We are all adults here not schoolchildren and nothing damaging or insulting was in the thread.
Why would people object to the thread? If it was "losing relevance" it was clear that there were people who were nonetheless absorbed in the discussion that had developed, and given that it was all civil why should they have been denied that opportunity?
If the thread had been hijacked that would have been different - but the point of the original post HAD been discussed and then it had gone off on a tangent. That is different.
So I cannot imagine what the problem was for some people. Were they uncomfortable because gay issues were being discussed? Did it offend their political or religious beliefs? Was it too "social" for them? They don't have to join in if they are uncomfortable with such things, but why take that discussion away from those who find it something they wish to discuss?
I agree that this problem is probably not at the instigation of the facilitator but rather someone else. If this is the case then the facilitator needs to be supported by clear guidelines so that he/she doesn't need to feel pressured by people running their own agendas and can point to a due process that has already been set out.
Why would people object to the thread? If it was "losing relevance" it was clear that there were people who were nonetheless absorbed in the discussion that had developed, and given that it was all civil why should they have been denied that opportunity?
If the thread had been hijacked that would have been different - but the point of the original post HAD been discussed and then it had gone off on a tangent. That is different.
So I cannot imagine what the problem was for some people. Were they uncomfortable because gay issues were being discussed? Did it offend their political or religious beliefs? Was it too "social" for them? They don't have to join in if they are uncomfortable with such things, but why take that discussion away from those who find it something they wish to discuss?
I agree that this problem is probably not at the instigation of the facilitator but rather someone else. If this is the case then the facilitator needs to be supported by clear guidelines so that he/she doesn't need to feel pressured by people running their own agendas and can point to a due process that has already been set out.
Perhaps this is better suited to the Managing long and broad topics in Moodle topic but...
While I am sympathetic to the generous sentiment and suggestion, I am not sure that the "due process" (TA) or "the rule of law" (JF) are the way to go.
I am not an out and out social constructivist (or constructionist, or whatever) when it comes to teaching but when it comes to the Moodle community the social constructive thang really works wonders. It is an ethos or, more vague than that perhaps, a flag that really rallies people together.
As I am a partly whip-cracking behaviouristic teacher, one might expect me to be really into laws and rules but here on Using Moodle I don't think that law is Moodle-esque, or in the long run Moodle-desirable.
I am sure that the facilitator that zapped (temporarily?) that thread was intending to be helpful. I would like to thank him or her and boost that facilitators confidence. I am sure that it was done with the community at heart.
At the same time, I think that the subjective reasons for the zapping of that thread should out, be made clear, and subjected to not-legalistic, but socially constructive discussion.
This will all wash out. There is I believe, no need to bring a 'whip', the rule of law, into Using Moodle, but to encourage instead confidence in the power of social constructivism.
I look forward to reading the open, not-private-message, rationale for the thread zapping.
Tim T.
Hmmm...
I have to say that I did not request that the Art Lader / Art Teacher thread be shut down, but I was glad to see it go. In fact, I was asked if I objected to its being hidden and replied that I was relieved. (Well, I was more emphatic than that.)
Debate and the open expression of ideas are vitally important, but I felt that I had started a thread that was becoming a bit personal and maybe not helpful to the moodle.org community at large.
Not my finest moment as a Moodler.
I could be wrong about the whole thing, of course, and I do not want to step on any toes (God knows I am not looking to incite another mini-riot!), but I am not sorry the thread was hidden.
Anyway, that is Just My Two Cents.
-- Art
I have to say that I did not request that the Art Lader / Art Teacher thread be shut down, but I was glad to see it go. In fact, I was asked if I objected to its being hidden and replied that I was relieved. (Well, I was more emphatic than that.)
Debate and the open expression of ideas are vitally important, but I felt that I had started a thread that was becoming a bit personal and maybe not helpful to the moodle.org community at large.
Not my finest moment as a Moodler.
I could be wrong about the whole thing, of course, and I do not want to step on any toes (God knows I am not looking to incite another mini-riot!), but I am not sorry the thread was hidden.
Anyway, that is Just My Two Cents.
-- Art
Personal? In what way do you mean personal? Revealing too much information about one's views or commenting on others personally? At what point did it get too personal exactly? I would like to see an example of too personal. Why is it not your "finest moment"? I didn't see you say anything particularly offensive whatsoever in the thread.
The thread certainly is not going to be helpful in the Moodle as software sense but I know at least that there are some people found it useful for learning about different religious/cultural perspectives in the world. I for one still would like to know more about what the Belgians are doing with all those guns they allegedly have, as an example...
And if you think that thread was "too personal" then perhaps the thread on depression in the IT profession should be deleted. I know when I commented how I thought it wasn't very self-serving to be so personal in that thread that I got attacked for it. But I know there are several others who agreed with me, among them Chardelle who offered to set up a private forum for those who felt more comfortable discussing mental health in a private environment. But even though I appealed to people as individuals to think carefully about what they posted in that thread, I never suggested the thread itself should go away completely.
The thread certainly is not going to be helpful in the Moodle as software sense but I know at least that there are some people found it useful for learning about different religious/cultural perspectives in the world. I for one still would like to know more about what the Belgians are doing with all those guns they allegedly have, as an example...
And if you think that thread was "too personal" then perhaps the thread on depression in the IT profession should be deleted. I know when I commented how I thought it wasn't very self-serving to be so personal in that thread that I got attacked for it. But I know there are several others who agreed with me, among them Chardelle who offered to set up a private forum for those who felt more comfortable discussing mental health in a private environment. But even though I appealed to people as individuals to think carefully about what they posted in that thread, I never suggested the thread itself should go away completely.
Hi,
I am sorry that I was not more careful in expressing myself. I was not thinking of anyone in particular. I was thinking of the tone in general. It just felt that way to me. It would have been helpful if I had said so.
I did not mean to offend you or anyone else. Really, I didn't.
Best regards,
Art
I am sorry that I was not more careful in expressing myself. I was not thinking of anyone in particular. I was thinking of the tone in general. It just felt that way to me. It would have been helpful if I had said so.
I did not mean to offend you or anyone else. Really, I didn't.
Best regards,
Art
Art,
you started a thread with something very interesting - others took it in a different direction - you don't have responsibility for what others say. I am quite a fan of yours and I am puzzled for you talk about not your finest moment as a Moodler.
You may have been glad to see it go - I would have been quite glad to see it finish in the usual way of staying there but with no more postings. But that's not the point - it was actually removed and nobody is saying why (other than that some people objected to it).
Now I have already said what I think about the thread (not flaming, dialogue taking place) but what puzzles me is HOW this thread was "not helpful to the moodle.org community at large. "
The point at issue is not the quality or value of the thread but its removal and the increasingly deafening silence on that (you can't all still be asleep or on the beach )
you started a thread with something very interesting - others took it in a different direction - you don't have responsibility for what others say. I am quite a fan of yours and I am puzzled for you talk about not your finest moment as a Moodler.
You may have been glad to see it go - I would have been quite glad to see it finish in the usual way of staying there but with no more postings. But that's not the point - it was actually removed and nobody is saying why (other than that some people objected to it).
Now I have already said what I think about the thread (not flaming, dialogue taking place) but what puzzles me is HOW this thread was "not helpful to the moodle.org community at large. "
The point at issue is not the quality or value of the thread but its removal and the increasingly deafening silence on that (you can't all still be asleep or on the beach
Well, Frances, I like you, too.
I guess that I will read through it again. Maybe I was just being hypersensitive.
-- Art
I guess that I will read through it again. Maybe I was just being hypersensitive.
-- Art
Art-I just reread all your posts in the thread and again I don't find anything that you said that would be your worst moment. In fact, perhaps your first remark in the thread was the most insightful commentary of all:
"Yes, ONE PARENT COMPLAINED and the teacher is losing her job."
A bit ironic, don't you agree?
"Yes, ONE PARENT COMPLAINED and the teacher is losing her job."
A bit ironic, don't you agree?
I missed the thread, so haven't seen the content, but I think we need to be careful - Tims earlier comment "We are all adults here" - is partially correct - possibly for those participating at least! - however I'm aware of some younger members of the Moodle community and if it's possible that the discussion had "evolved" into a discussion that "should" really be one between adults, then the Moodle "social" forum is not really the right place for that discussion......
A lot of the Moodle team are "Family Oriented" - I have 4 amazing children and I for one would prefer to "protect" them from discussion that is really above their understanding and ability to process information.
Maybe a better focus for this discussion could be some ideas on what the guidelines should be around discussion in the forums. - There is obviously a standard by which postings should take - and the Moodle Commmunity has so far been "pretty good" at keeping to that standard, but maybe that "standard" needs to be better publicised to allow it to be a bit more transparent. - It wouldn't surprise me if there was originally a set of guidelines for postings, I can't seem to find it right now, but if there isn't one, it should be relatively easy to put something basic together and get some form of consensus(or at least understanding!) on what those standards should be.
MTCW
Dan
Dan,
It is a pitty that you are not able to see the thread. You would realize that there wasn't anything in the contents that you would have to be afraid of. Unless you are afraid of your children hearing the word "homosexual" or hearing someone saying that he is bisexual. But there wasn't anything explicit or questionable, really.
If you are afraid of that (hearing the word homosexual as in "I have a friend who is homosexual"), you are in for a rough ride, though. You cannot shield your children that much. What age are they? I find it a little bizarre that really young children (even if they are the children of the Moodle team) would get immersed in reading the posts in the Open Social Forum.
Look, I have a 10 year old girl (and a 4 year old boy) and I suppose I'm family oriented (I don't really know what that means, though). And I certainly want to protect my children. I would be very unhappy if they were exposed to pornography (graphically or verbally). I doubt my daughter would have been interested in reading this thread. She would have been bored after reading the first few lines. But if she had, I don't think I would have been concerned at all. She heard about homosexuals or bisexuals before I even had time to explain it to her. I don't know where you live, but I don't think I am very mistaken if I say your children have a higher probability of hearing more disturbing things from other children in school than from reading what was discussed in the thread we are talking about.
It is a pitty that you are not able to see the thread. You would realize that there wasn't anything in the contents that you would have to be afraid of. Unless you are afraid of your children hearing the word "homosexual" or hearing someone saying that he is bisexual. But there wasn't anything explicit or questionable, really.
If you are afraid of that (hearing the word homosexual as in "I have a friend who is homosexual"), you are in for a rough ride, though. You cannot shield your children that much. What age are they? I find it a little bizarre that really young children (even if they are the children of the Moodle team) would get immersed in reading the posts in the Open Social Forum.
Look, I have a 10 year old girl (and a 4 year old boy) and I suppose I'm family oriented (I don't really know what that means, though). And I certainly want to protect my children. I would be very unhappy if they were exposed to pornography (graphically or verbally). I doubt my daughter would have been interested in reading this thread. She would have been bored after reading the first few lines. But if she had, I don't think I would have been concerned at all. She heard about homosexuals or bisexuals before I even had time to explain it to her. I don't know where you live, but I don't think I am very mistaken if I say your children have a higher probability of hearing more disturbing things from other children in school than from reading what was discussed in the thread we are talking about.
Fair enough - you may wish to refer to my last point - lets create something transparent in the way of some guidelines(if they don't exist already) as to what is appropriate both in the social forum and the others so that everyone is aware of what is expected in this particular community.
Dan
Yes, by all means, Dan. I totally agree with you this is needed. In fact some other people have more or less explicitly asked for this in this thread or another related thread.
So far we thought there were some unwritten rules but I guess they were different for different people
Josep M.
So far we thought there were some unwritten rules but I guess they were different for different people
Josep M.
I have created MDLSITE-50 regarding this - it probably doesn't require any further comments - I'm sure the postings on the forums give everyones opinions, however if you feel that "guidelines" are required, I suggest voting for the issue in the tracker to make your feelings known.
You can vote for issues in the tracker by logging in and clicking on the "vote for it" link in the bottom left of the page.
Dan
Dan,
I do think that some sort of guidelines might help here (I am somone who has written boring academic papers on this matter - the more's the pity) but sadly it's not the lack of guidelines that's the problem IMHO. Dear Art has been brave enough to stick his head above the parapet (or perhaps another part of his anatomy given that he is claiming a spanking 
) but there has been nothing from the people who objected to and effected the removal of the thread. The norms of a community can be observed from rules and guidelines or from the behaviour of its members. What can we observe here is no rules and no dialogue with the action-takers, and a lot of fluffy talk from objectors like myself.
If this silence is intended to allow things to blow over, I don't think it's going to work.
I do think that some sort of guidelines might help here (I am somone who has written boring academic papers on this matter - the more's the pity
) but there has been nothing from the people who objected to and effected the removal of the thread. The norms of a community can be observed from rules and guidelines or from the behaviour of its members. What can we observe here is no rules and no dialogue with the action-takers, and a lot of fluffy talk from objectors like myself.If this silence is intended to allow things to blow over, I don't think it's going to work.
Thanks for your practical, constructive suggestion Dan - I have voted for it and I hope others will too. 
Tim.
Tim.
Josep-Yes school tends to be the place where people first hear about all those things mother and father don't tell them about. I have a great aunt who went to college for the first time in her 50s. She had spent her adult life in Los Angeles, her childhood in Chicago. So she was not living in the middle of nowhere. Now, it seems she first learned that homosexuals existed in college, because one day, she took my aunt (her neice, about the same age as her) aside and told her she wanted to ask her about something privately. Well, she told her she had just heard about these homosexuals and she wanted to know from my aunt, "What do they do?" She had spent more than 50 years unaware of them. I'm totally serious about this, and believe it or not, she went on to get an MA in psychology. And it's ironic, she has a gay cousin the same age as her with a Ph.D. in psychology....but she never knew...
With all due respect, Art, but as far as I'm concerned your least finest moment as a Moodler was the moment you wrote "I am not sorry the thread was hidden". I hope you don't consider me a mini-rioter for saying this.
I could understand that being a teacher in a school in South Carolina you might have been uncomfortable having your name somehow associated to discussions about bisexuality and what have you. I don't mean to offend you with this reference to your profession in connection to the particular state you live in. I'm mentioning this because of the observations/reflections you made about how hard it is being a teacher nowadays in modern day America with so many presures, censorship and so on (I would like to cite you more faithfully but I can't find the relevant message since it has been hidden).
But, Art, if you felt uncomfortable, IMHO it would have been more courageous and appropriate to have written some sort of disclaimer saying that you are not responsible and don't necessarily agree with any of the opinions or views expressed by the participants in this thread. That for me would have been a much more dignified response than just coming out and saying that you are happy because the thread is shut down and hidden from view. That is not really nice in my book. Do you really realize what you are saying? How is that so different from being happy about the teacher being fired? How is this so different from being happy about the banning of books like The Catcher in the Rye or whatever other books? They also ban them because it makes some people (who are not forced to read them) uncomfortable. Not your finest moment as a person who defends openness and democratic principles, if you ask me.
If you felt uncomfortable for a different reason, then I understand your reaction even less. Who are you to decide what's good for the Moodle community (if that's what you mean by moodle.org) at large? What scientific study have you conducted to reach the conclusion that that thread was damaging something important in moodle.org? For me, shutting down this thread is way more damaging than whatever could have been said in the thread.
I also agree with Nicole when she questions your characterization of the debates as "being too personal". What was personal about this whole thing? There were different views about the world, about religion, about sexuality being confronted and we all engaged in the discussions more or less passionately but always respecting each other. Does it look like Nicole or Ger or Tim or myself have come out of this being hurt in our personal feelings and being less friendly and civil with each other? What is personal for me is when someone arbitrarily decides to hide a discussion where I or other people I respect have participated.
Or you mean personal because somebody mentioned he was bisexual or others talked about their gay friends? If that's the case, the problem is yours, Art. This is a discussion between adults (actually, at the level these issues were discussed maybe even children could participate, at least one of my children certainly could) and nobody has said so far that in the Open Social Forum people cannot talk about such issues.
So, again, Art, with all due respect (and this is not simply rethorical because respect is due to you for some of your finest moments as a Moodler) how you feel about this is really irrelevant. The issue is not how you feel but whether it is right to shut down a thread because some specific people ask for it to be shut down. If you support this decision, and it looks like you do, then we really have a fundamental disagreement about what moodle.org is about. I hope you don't add "when you are happy that a thread gets shut down because some people don't like it" to your 'You know you are a Moodler if...' list.
>In fact, I was asked if I objected to its being hidden and replied that I was
>relieved
It looks like you are more of a Moodler than the rest of us because we were never asked whether we objected.
That is just my ... oh hundred and fifty cents
I could understand that being a teacher in a school in South Carolina you might have been uncomfortable having your name somehow associated to discussions about bisexuality and what have you. I don't mean to offend you with this reference to your profession in connection to the particular state you live in. I'm mentioning this because of the observations/reflections you made about how hard it is being a teacher nowadays in modern day America with so many presures, censorship and so on (I would like to cite you more faithfully but I can't find the relevant message since it has been hidden).
But, Art, if you felt uncomfortable, IMHO it would have been more courageous and appropriate to have written some sort of disclaimer saying that you are not responsible and don't necessarily agree with any of the opinions or views expressed by the participants in this thread. That for me would have been a much more dignified response than just coming out and saying that you are happy because the thread is shut down and hidden from view. That is not really nice in my book. Do you really realize what you are saying? How is that so different from being happy about the teacher being fired? How is this so different from being happy about the banning of books like The Catcher in the Rye or whatever other books? They also ban them because it makes some people (who are not forced to read them) uncomfortable. Not your finest moment as a person who defends openness and democratic principles, if you ask me.
If you felt uncomfortable for a different reason, then I understand your reaction even less. Who are you to decide what's good for the Moodle community (if that's what you mean by moodle.org) at large? What scientific study have you conducted to reach the conclusion that that thread was damaging something important in moodle.org? For me, shutting down this thread is way more damaging than whatever could have been said in the thread.
I also agree with Nicole when she questions your characterization of the debates as "being too personal". What was personal about this whole thing? There were different views about the world, about religion, about sexuality being confronted and we all engaged in the discussions more or less passionately but always respecting each other. Does it look like Nicole or Ger or Tim or myself have come out of this being hurt in our personal feelings and being less friendly and civil with each other? What is personal for me is when someone arbitrarily decides to hide a discussion where I or other people I respect have participated.
Or you mean personal because somebody mentioned he was bisexual or others talked about their gay friends? If that's the case, the problem is yours, Art. This is a discussion between adults (actually, at the level these issues were discussed maybe even children could participate, at least one of my children certainly could) and nobody has said so far that in the Open Social Forum people cannot talk about such issues.
So, again, Art, with all due respect (and this is not simply rethorical because respect is due to you for some of your finest moments as a Moodler) how you feel about this is really irrelevant. The issue is not how you feel but whether it is right to shut down a thread because some specific people ask for it to be shut down. If you support this decision, and it looks like you do, then we really have a fundamental disagreement about what moodle.org is about. I hope you don't add "when you are happy that a thread gets shut down because some people don't like it" to your 'You know you are a Moodler if...' list.
>In fact, I was asked if I objected to its being hidden and replied that I was
>relieved
It looks like you are more of a Moodler than the rest of us because we were never asked whether we objected.
That is just my ... oh hundred and fifty cents
Closing this thread was like saying don't think about pink elephants. Everyone automatically thinks of pink elephants, and talks about them, and wildly speculates about them...
Now, I'm not going to speculate about who is behind this. But the silence has made me speculate about why. What I am wondering is what is the pink elephant that nobody wants to admit to? Is the pink elephant here bisexuals in Japan visiting Shinto shrines, gay Muslims in Egypt wearing pink underwear, gun-toting transvestites in Belgium, or straight Evangelicals in Texas not visiting art museums? What country, what religion, or what sexual orientation is the one that shouldn't be mentioned? Now, for those who feel happy this thread is closed, if you aren't willing to admit to any of the above reasons, then please give another specific reason for this. If it is logical and reasonable, I promise to keep an open mind and might even agree with the closing of the thread. But Art and S Bhatia, you are being too vague for me to consider anything you have said to be an answer, and everyone else is just avoiding answering altogether.
You might have noticed that Josep and I were on the opposite side for most of the deleted discussion. We didn't see eye to eye, and we both will admit we didn't change eachother's minds, and we didn't try or expect to do that. But we enriched our minds by learning about eachother's viewpoints. And I think our unity on the ridiculousness of closing this thread just goes to show you that in spite of differences, we all have things in common with one another. I hope this incident will be one where all Moodlers can find some common ground in the end but by hiding behind vagueness and silence no common ground can be found.
Now, I'm not going to speculate about who is behind this. But the silence has made me speculate about why. What I am wondering is what is the pink elephant that nobody wants to admit to? Is the pink elephant here bisexuals in Japan visiting Shinto shrines, gay Muslims in Egypt wearing pink underwear, gun-toting transvestites in Belgium, or straight Evangelicals in Texas not visiting art museums? What country, what religion, or what sexual orientation is the one that shouldn't be mentioned? Now, for those who feel happy this thread is closed, if you aren't willing to admit to any of the above reasons, then please give another specific reason for this. If it is logical and reasonable, I promise to keep an open mind and might even agree with the closing of the thread. But Art and S Bhatia, you are being too vague for me to consider anything you have said to be an answer, and everyone else is just avoiding answering altogether.
You might have noticed that Josep and I were on the opposite side for most of the deleted discussion. We didn't see eye to eye, and we both will admit we didn't change eachother's minds, and we didn't try or expect to do that. But we enriched our minds by learning about eachother's viewpoints. And I think our unity on the ridiculousness of closing this thread just goes to show you that in spite of differences, we all have things in common with one another. I hope this incident will be one where all Moodlers can find some common ground in the end but by hiding behind vagueness and silence no common ground can be found.
>We didn't see eye to eye, and we both will admit we didn't change
eachother's
>minds, and we didn't try or expect to do that. But we enriched our minds by
>learning about eachother's viewpoints. And I think our unity on the ridiculousness
>of closing this thread just goes to show you that in spite of differences, we all
>have things in common with one another.
Thank you for saying this because this is exactly the way I think about this whole issue. You've "stolen" the words from my mouth (this is a Spanish saying, I don't know whether it translates well).
And now, let's hear it for the pink elephants
It might or might not be funny but I think I will use this little mascot as a reminder that the thread has not been restored yet and no answers have been offered about who had it shut down and why they had it shut down.
>minds, and we didn't try or expect to do that. But we enriched our minds by
>learning about eachother's viewpoints. And I think our unity on the ridiculousness
>of closing this thread just goes to show you that in spite of differences, we all
>have things in common with one another.
Thank you for saying this because this is exactly the way I think about this whole issue. You've "stolen" the words from my mouth (this is a Spanish saying, I don't know whether it translates well).
And now, let's hear it for the pink elephants
It might or might not be funny but I think I will use this little mascot as a reminder that the thread has not been restored yet and no answers have been offered about who had it shut down and why they had it shut down.
Josep-Wow, I think we really are on the same wavelength at the same time! Clear your cache and reload this page and you will understand why.
But hey, we did choose different images after all. I would say your elephant is more prudish and shows less nudity than mine
Isn't Google Images great? But don't jump to conclusions about the prudishness of my elephant. I picked the one that looked like it would make the best little icon-it didn't have too much detail and would still look the same at a Moodle icon.
I have to admit though what got me thinking about elephants this afternoon was when I was mailing something at the local UPS store earlier today and they had a bunch of elephant figurines there that they were mailing for someone sitting on the floor behind the counter.
I picked the one that looked like it would make the best little icon-it didn't have too much detail and would still look the same at a Moodle icon.I have to admit though what got me thinking about elephants this afternoon was when I was mailing something at the local UPS store earlier today and they had a bunch of elephant figurines there that they were mailing for someone sitting on the floor behind the counter.
I beg to differ You clear your cache now, look at my pink elephant and tell me whether it doesn't make a nice avatar. I think you didn't choose my pink elephant because you objected to her nudity.
Now I wonder whether some pink elephant teacher from a pink elephant school would be fired in a pink elephant school district for taking the pink elephant kids to a pink elephant museum where they could see a pink elephant statue like my pink elephant. Which in turn leads me to ask you whether there are more gay pink elephants in Egypt than you claim and to ask myself whether the fact that pink elephants do wear pink underwear necessarily means that they are gay or it simply proves that they are bisexual just like any other pink elephant.
Now I wonder whether some pink elephant teacher from a pink elephant school would be fired in a pink elephant school district for taking the pink elephant kids to a pink elephant museum where they could see a pink elephant statue like my pink elephant. Which in turn leads me to ask you whether there are more gay pink elephants in Egypt than you claim and to ask myself whether the fact that pink elephants do wear pink underwear necessarily means that they are gay or it simply proves that they are bisexual just like any other pink elephant.
Another post I was about to reply to just disappeared, and while I won't name the poster, I still want to respond. I was always taught in school and university that you should back up any argument with reasons and evidence. I always recall a simple mnemonic device my speech teacher in high school taught us for public speaking:
PREP
Make your point
Give your reasons
State your evidence
And reiterate your point
PREP
Make your point
Give your reasons
State your evidence
And reiterate your point
Hmmm... Fair enough. That is certainly good advice and a helpful memory device. I will keep it in mind.
But I deleted my post because I kept thinking of of something I picked up at a Rotary Club meeting many years ago:
And I hope that no one will mind that this is my last post to this thread. I have not changed my mind, but I do thank everone for the lively debate.
Long live Moodle and Moodle.org.
-- Art
But I deleted my post because I kept thinking of of something I picked up at a Rotary Club meeting many years ago:
Before you speak, ask yourself if what you are going
to say is true, is kind, is necessary, is helpful. If the answer is no,
maybe what you are about to say should be left unsaid.
-- Bernard Meltzer
And I hope that no one will mind that this is my last post to this thread. I have not changed my mind, but I do thank everone for the lively debate.
Long live Moodle and Moodle.org.
-- Art
Well, I am getting spanked here pretty well. I cannot say that it is totally unexpected, beause I knew that passions were running high and that my position on this would be the cause of some consternation. After all, the real topic here is freedom of expression or the lack of said freedom, is it not? That is bound to get the juices flowing.
I will carefully read and consider the thoughtful reponses that have been posted here. I will do what I often advise my students to do: Try to see things from the other guy's point of view and maybe learn a thing or two. Maybe. I am sure that there is some lesson I can learn from this if I think about it a while.
Best regards,
Art
I will carefully read and consider the thoughtful reponses that have been posted here. I will do what I often advise my students to do: Try to see things from the other guy's point of view and maybe learn a thing or two. Maybe. I am sure that there is some lesson I can learn from this if I think about it a while.
Best regards,
Art
Sorry for the spanking But yes, the real topic is the one you say. The "spanking" was a way to remind you of that
I will shed light on the issue of who deleted the thread:
1. Terrorists
We can alleviate all the angst this has caused with:
1. Tax cuts
For all of you who do not live in the U.S., these are the two answers our President Bush gives to all those who question anything he does or anyone who disagrees with him.
And finally, if that isn't good enough, he answers a question with a question:
"Why do you hate freedom?"
We, in the US have become very used to having "big brother" make our decisions for us. It is so comforting to not have to think!
Chick Beckley
1. Terrorists
We can alleviate all the angst this has caused with:
1. Tax cuts
For all of you who do not live in the U.S., these are the two answers our President Bush gives to all those who question anything he does or anyone who disagrees with him.
And finally, if that isn't good enough, he answers a question with a question:
"Why do you hate freedom?"
We, in the US have become very used to having "big brother" make our decisions for us. It is so comforting to not have to think!
Chick Beckley
This will be my one and only post on this matter.
I have recently become very concerned on the tone and level of animosity staring to pervade the Moodle forums and want to make my position on the matter clear.
These are Moodle forums hosted on Moodle.org. Their purpose is to provide a place for members of the community to post comments, ideas and suggestions related to making Moodle better. A place for teachers, students and admins a like to share their experiences and thoughts regarding the product so that others may learn from them.
The creation of the 'Open Social' forum was intended as a place for, as stated, open and social discussion. A place where members of the community can share information and ideas on items that may not necessarily be related to the core moodle product. It was created to again help create a further sense of community amongst our members.
Sadly, as of recent, these posts have started becoming hostile. Threads are turning into trench warfare where users with different fews forever try to enforce their position on others. The views, right or wrong, are so dug in that we get to a point that all that is left is a sense of hostility. This goes against the community aim. More importantly, we are now getting emails from users saying they feel uncomfortable because of this.
As a member of the 'Particularly helpful Moodlers' group our role is to ensure that the sites community goals are met. This is done in many ways. We try to do this mostly through example and the occasional prod. But other times more forceful steps are necessary. In the most recent case a particular thread was getting out of control. Warnings were posted in the thread itself that were ignored. Key members of the thread were also contacted. In the end no other recourse was open so the thread had to be removed from the public view.
This is not about censorship but moderation. This is not your university, school or institution. It is an open forum for users of all things Moodle. As such owners of the forum have the right to moderate as they see fit to ensure that the goals of the site are met. Users who go against that goal can either post elsewhere where their views on moderation are the same or adapt. I would hate to see the loss of the Open Forum due to misuse by an extremely small part of the community.
Should you wish to discuss this further please feel free to message me directly. You can also always message Martin D or Helen, or in fact any member of this site to directly discuss these issues should you feel the need to.
Julian
I have recently become very concerned on the tone and level of animosity staring to pervade the Moodle forums and want to make my position on the matter clear.
These are Moodle forums hosted on Moodle.org. Their purpose is to provide a place for members of the community to post comments, ideas and suggestions related to making Moodle better. A place for teachers, students and admins a like to share their experiences and thoughts regarding the product so that others may learn from them.
The creation of the 'Open Social' forum was intended as a place for, as stated, open and social discussion. A place where members of the community can share information and ideas on items that may not necessarily be related to the core moodle product. It was created to again help create a further sense of community amongst our members.
Sadly, as of recent, these posts have started becoming hostile. Threads are turning into trench warfare where users with different fews forever try to enforce their position on others. The views, right or wrong, are so dug in that we get to a point that all that is left is a sense of hostility. This goes against the community aim. More importantly, we are now getting emails from users saying they feel uncomfortable because of this.
As a member of the 'Particularly helpful Moodlers' group our role is to ensure that the sites community goals are met. This is done in many ways. We try to do this mostly through example and the occasional prod. But other times more forceful steps are necessary. In the most recent case a particular thread was getting out of control. Warnings were posted in the thread itself that were ignored. Key members of the thread were also contacted. In the end no other recourse was open so the thread had to be removed from the public view.
This is not about censorship but moderation. This is not your university, school or institution. It is an open forum for users of all things Moodle. As such owners of the forum have the right to moderate as they see fit to ensure that the goals of the site are met. Users who go against that goal can either post elsewhere where their views on moderation are the same or adapt. I would hate to see the loss of the Open Forum due to misuse by an extremely small part of the community.
Should you wish to discuss this further please feel free to message me directly. You can also always message Martin D or Helen, or in fact any member of this site to directly discuss these issues should you feel the need to.
Julian
Ditto.
This was exactly what I meant when I said the post had lost relevance and it's fair enough that Moodle moderators are supposed to be active after a certain extent.
The moodlers who feel their freedom is being curtailed do not realize that this wasn't even the forum for that freedom. This is a specialised place for specialised discussions(to some extent) and no one stops you all from continuing it elsewhere. in fact we all are continuing it here itself.
The only thing I disagree with ir 'removal' of the forum. But I guess they had to do it coz there is no way in moodle to stop posts to a single thread, I suppose.( Food for thought for moodle1.8.........provide facility to 'seal' or close a particular thread without 'removing' it
This was exactly what I meant when I said the post had lost relevance and it's fair enough that Moodle moderators are supposed to be active after a certain extent.
The moodlers who feel their freedom is being curtailed do not realize that this wasn't even the forum for that freedom. This is a specialised place for specialised discussions(to some extent) and no one stops you all from continuing it elsewhere. in fact we all are continuing it here itself.
The only thing I disagree with ir 'removal' of the forum. But I guess they had to do it coz there is no way in moodle to stop posts to a single thread, I suppose.( Food for thought for moodle1.8.........provide facility to 'seal' or close a particular thread without 'removing' it
Hello Julian
So it was you!?
I jest. I am sure it was some sort of collective decision.
> This will be my one and only post on this matter.
Why is that? We are all busy but it seems to me that if the issue is as serious as you suggest then it deserves discussion, in a nice and friendly Moodle fashion of course.
> Sadly, as of recent, these posts have started becoming hostile.
That sounds like a good reason for moderating a thread, but I am not aware of it being applicable in this case. It is the opinion of more than one person that read the thread that it was not hostile. Perhaps you can pick upon the hostile bits. Then I will nod and agree with your decision too.
On the other hand, as you can see it seems that several people the deletion of the thread without public explanation was very hostile.
Hold on, there was some explanation. Two Explanations I think. Here is yours (thanks to the google cache).
Jullian Ridden: "This has gone on for long enough. While this is called the 'Open Social' forum I am seeing very little social (or constructive) happening here other than people trying to prove certain points of view."
"This has gone on for long enough..." Mr Ridden haaas spoken. Bearing in mind that some particularly helpful (by my estimation) moodlers had been discussing something for a while, didn't the dissmissal of the thread needed a bit more work?
> As a member of the 'Particularly helpful Moodlers' group
It seems that at least one member of your group does not feel as you do. I was not aware that hats are the symbol of authority that you propose they are, but a symbol of helpfulness.
"This is not your university, school or institution. "
Interesting use of the possessive pronoun again. I was of the opinion that this is our institution, our forum, our place for discussing things. By our I mean yours and ours. I was not aware that we (whoever was designated by the "your") are any less owners of the forum than you, Julian. It seems to me that you are quite new here! I am kind of surprised, therefore, that you should feel able to speak for the inside of the community. Oo r u?! I hope you use "we" in your next post. I am with you, with us.
Tim
So it was you!?
I jest. I am sure it was some sort of collective decision.> This will be my one and only post on this matter.
Why is that? We are all busy but it seems to me that if the issue is as serious as you suggest then it deserves discussion, in a nice and friendly Moodle fashion of course.
> Sadly, as of recent, these posts have started becoming hostile.
That sounds like a good reason for moderating a thread, but I am not aware of it being applicable in this case. It is the opinion of more than one person that read the thread that it was not hostile. Perhaps you can pick upon the hostile bits. Then I will nod and agree with your decision too.
On the other hand, as you can see it seems that several people the deletion of the thread without public explanation was very hostile.
Hold on, there was some explanation. Two Explanations I think. Here is yours (thanks to the google cache).
Jullian Ridden: "This has gone on for long enough. While this is called the 'Open Social' forum I am seeing very little social (or constructive) happening here other than people trying to prove certain points of view."
"This has gone on for long enough..." Mr Ridden haaas spoken
. Bearing in mind that some particularly helpful (by my estimation) moodlers had been discussing something for a while, didn't the dissmissal of the thread needed a bit more work? > As a member of the 'Particularly helpful Moodlers' group
It seems that at least one member of your group does not feel as you do. I was not aware that hats are the symbol of authority that you propose they are, but a symbol of helpfulness.
"This is not your university, school or institution. "
Interesting use of the possessive pronoun again. I was of the opinion that this is our institution, our forum, our place for discussing things. By our I mean yours and ours. I was not aware that we (whoever was designated by the "your") are any less owners of the forum than you, Julian. It seems to me that you are quite new here
! I am kind of surprised, therefore, that you should feel able to speak for the inside of the community. Oo r u?! I hope you use "we" in your next post. I am with you, with us.Tim
I agree that the people managaing this website have, in a legalistic sense, the right to do as they wish, and us users will have to just put up with it and go elsewhere if we are not happy.
But the fact is that now there is a large Moodle community here now and that has its own implications for the way the site is run - ethically if not legalistically there should be a certain due process in the way things are managed.
The request to once again remove the discussion from the public forums and only discuss it in private is an extraordinary one given that the issue of concern is that certain important decisions have been made privately without justification or consultation. You just don't seem to get it, do you?
I think there is a gross error of judgement here, because many of us never picked up on the animosity that you did. It defeats me to see how strong opinions and vigorous debate can be equated with animosity. I can only believe that this justification is a self-deception and that the real problem was that you were personally uncomfortable with the topics being discussed. It seems more like censorship than moderation to me.
Tim.
But the fact is that now there is a large Moodle community here now and that has its own implications for the way the site is run - ethically if not legalistically there should be a certain due process in the way things are managed.
The request to once again remove the discussion from the public forums and only discuss it in private is an extraordinary one given that the issue of concern is that certain important decisions have been made privately without justification or consultation. You just don't seem to get it, do you?
I think there is a gross error of judgement here, because many of us never picked up on the animosity that you did. It defeats me to see how strong opinions and vigorous debate can be equated with animosity. I can only believe that this justification is a self-deception and that the real problem was that you were personally uncomfortable with the topics being discussed. It seems more like censorship than moderation to me.
Tim.
As a member of the 'Particularly helpful Moodlers' group our role is to
ensure that the sites community goals are met. This is done in many
ways. We try to do this mostly through example and the occasional prod.
But other times more forceful steps are necessary. In the most recent
case a particular thread was getting out of control. Warnings were
posted in the thread itself that were ignored. Key members of the
thread were also contacted. In the end no other recourse was open so
the thread had to be removed from the public view.
I am a member of the "Helpful Moodlers Group" but I have been given absolutely no power or authority to make decisions regarding the removal of threads. My only role is to be as helpful and constructive for the Moodle comunity as possible. Julian's power to influence such things obviously comes from elsewhere.
I can not find any warnings that the thread was in danger of being closed down, although Julian and Martin L. perhaps got close to implying it indirectly.
Were the "key members" contacted and then the thread was removed or vice-versa? From the reports of others, they got messages after it had already been done.
Julian, please quote here examples of posts expressing hostility or animosity - as Timothy said, if they are there I will acknowledge them. Where are they?
Tim.
I am a member of the "Helpful Moodlers Group" but I have been given absolutely no power or authority to make decisions regarding the removal of threads. My only role is to be as helpful and constructive for the Moodle comunity as possible. Julian's power to influence such things obviously comes from elsewhere.
I can not find any warnings that the thread was in danger of being closed down, although Julian and Martin L. perhaps got close to implying it indirectly.
Were the "key members" contacted and then the thread was removed or vice-versa? From the reports of others, they got messages after it had already been done.
Julian, please quote here examples of posts expressing hostility or animosity - as Timothy said, if they are there I will acknowledge them. Where are they?
Tim.
Thanks for your balanced responses Tim. I would just like to stress the need for due process (whether formal or evolved). The ticket for guidelines could be prove to be a bit of a distraction without it.
Some clarity on roles of PHMs and others would also help.
I have been delighted with the two partners Mediatouch and pTeppic with whom I have done hosting business but I would like to know the rationale behind the partner programme and how it will pan out worldwide.
Some clarity on roles of PHMs and others would also help.
I have been delighted with the two partners Mediatouch and pTeppic with whom I have done hosting business but I would like to know the rationale behind the partner programme and how it will pan out worldwide.
Hi Frances,
Thanks for your input too. I am not sure I understand your distinction there - as I understood it the guidelines would lay down what the due process should be.
Peace,
Tim.
Thanks for your input too.
Peace,
Tim.
Even if the guidelines try to describe a procedure, the process will be as enacted and perceived by participants. It's not the 'rules' - it's how they are applied. Also a process will include a way to change itself over time.
Sorry yes. Process is good, and so was Martin's.
Tim
Tim
Though I was not a participant in this thread I carefully read and watched the movement of the thread. I do not intend to pass value judgement but to make an introspection of what is currently going on in the Moodle community. It is sad to name this thread as something rotten in the state of Moodle giving an inpression to the public through GBoogle that we are wahing our linen in public.
The creator of Moodle is a visionary knows the destiny of Moodle. He dedicated the work to the public everywhere and wish to achive a niche amomg the commercial vedors in the market place leveraging open source software afforadble even to the poorest of the poor. Last time he assured me that through moodle foundation he will take this humane and costructive activity as a next stage for moodle.
Moodle is a beehive and the community menbers are the bees. Only when you try to establish bee keepers as a class of queen bees and the worker bees are influenced by quenn bees naturally restlessness will be there.
Like internet moodle community deserves the responible freedom of expression and activities and accomplishments according the interest and furtherance of Moodle. REMOTE control and subliminal management will do harm to the community as a whole.
Nagarajan
What about this thread started a while ago by our Martin D. himself, and what he said to someone who asked that that thread be finished up? This thread veered off on to the emotional issue of abortion, of all things. What could be more contentious? Yet closing it was never considered by Martin.
Is it Ok to discuss politics and abortion but not other social issues? Is it OK when a senior member of the site has started it but not when a member of the rank and file has?
Is this a precedent that we can point to that shows the lack of consistency in what has just happened?
Is it Ok to discuss politics and abortion but not other social issues? Is it OK when a senior member of the site has started it but not when a member of the rank and file has?
Is this a precedent that we can point to that shows the lack of consistency in what has just happened?
I respect Martin's decision as owner of this site. But I cannot let Julian's blatant lies pass without comment:
Julian said:
"Sadly, as of recent, these posts have started becoming hostile. Threads are turning into trench warfare where users with different fews forever try to enforce their position on others. The views, right or wrong, are so dug in that we get to a point that all that is left is a sense of hostility. This goes against the community aim. More importantly, we are now getting emails from users saying they feel uncomfortable because of this."
Who tried to enforce their position on others? There was no hostility in the original thread under discussion (even though we expressed different views). As you can see, Josep and I have come out of it without a bit of hostility toward one another-we even are joking with one another about things that were said in the original thread (e.g. his joke about my prudish elephant). The hostility started when people said we had no right to express our views. The views that are being forced here are false accusations that those of us who don't feel that any view was forced upon us should be feeling views were forced upon us.
"As a member of the 'Particularly helpful Moodlers' group our role is to ensure that the sites community goals are met. This is done in many ways. We try to do this mostly through example and the occasional prod. But other times more forceful steps are necessary. In the most recent case a particular thread was getting out of control. Warnings were posted in the thread itself that were ignored. Key members of the thread were also contacted. In the end no other recourse was open so the thread had to be removed from the public view."
I think others have already commented on the lies in the first part of this paragraph. But I will comment on the rest. No such "warnings" were posted. Some people, first a newbie, S Bhatia, not a "particularly helpful Moodler," asked whether the thread should be shut down. At that point, the discussion ceased to be about anything it had been before and became a discussion (not a warning, but if you call a discussion a warning, then boy, that's really forcing a view on someone) about whether the original discussion should be allowed to continue. I was a pretty key member of the thread, but no one contacted me at that point. The above paragraph is nothing but lies. I respect different viewpoints, but I hate to be lied to or about more than anything.
"This is not about censorship but moderation. This is not your university, school or institution. It is an open forum for users of all things Moodle."
You're right there. This isn't my university. My university has poured countless tens of thousands of dollars into my bank account to do my PhD research over the past dozen years, research that I even talked about in the oh-so-awful thread. And ironically, on more than one occassion, the notorious Egyptian police gave me security clearance to do that research in Egypt when I was holding two very prestigious scholarships. They saw nothing wrong with my topic obviously, even though it does touch on sex quite often. My university will decide in less than 3 weeks whether I deserve that PhD or not, NOT the Moodle community, and I certainly have a lot more faith in my professors in deciding whether my dissertation is reasoned academic discourse or trench warfare than I would ever have in your judgment, Julian. Because you obviously have no clue about the difference. I hope you continue to enjoy wearing your little helpful Moodler hat. I know I will enjoy wearing the real thing in December. Especially since a diploma comes with it, not an electric cattle prod.
(Note: I am sure Julian doesn't speak for Martin here, so my remarks on Julian above should not be seen as a commentary on the Moodle leadership or the moderators of this course.)
Julian said:
"Sadly, as of recent, these posts have started becoming hostile. Threads are turning into trench warfare where users with different fews forever try to enforce their position on others. The views, right or wrong, are so dug in that we get to a point that all that is left is a sense of hostility. This goes against the community aim. More importantly, we are now getting emails from users saying they feel uncomfortable because of this."
Who tried to enforce their position on others? There was no hostility in the original thread under discussion (even though we expressed different views). As you can see, Josep and I have come out of it without a bit of hostility toward one another-we even are joking with one another about things that were said in the original thread (e.g. his joke about my prudish elephant). The hostility started when people said we had no right to express our views. The views that are being forced here are false accusations that those of us who don't feel that any view was forced upon us should be feeling views were forced upon us.
"As a member of the 'Particularly helpful Moodlers' group our role is to ensure that the sites community goals are met. This is done in many ways. We try to do this mostly through example and the occasional prod. But other times more forceful steps are necessary. In the most recent case a particular thread was getting out of control. Warnings were posted in the thread itself that were ignored. Key members of the thread were also contacted. In the end no other recourse was open so the thread had to be removed from the public view."
I think others have already commented on the lies in the first part of this paragraph. But I will comment on the rest. No such "warnings" were posted. Some people, first a newbie, S Bhatia, not a "particularly helpful Moodler," asked whether the thread should be shut down. At that point, the discussion ceased to be about anything it had been before and became a discussion (not a warning, but if you call a discussion a warning, then boy, that's really forcing a view on someone) about whether the original discussion should be allowed to continue. I was a pretty key member of the thread, but no one contacted me at that point. The above paragraph is nothing but lies. I respect different viewpoints, but I hate to be lied to or about more than anything.
"This is not about censorship but moderation. This is not your university, school or institution. It is an open forum for users of all things Moodle."
You're right there. This isn't my university. My university has poured countless tens of thousands of dollars into my bank account to do my PhD research over the past dozen years, research that I even talked about in the oh-so-awful thread. And ironically, on more than one occassion, the notorious Egyptian police gave me security clearance to do that research in Egypt when I was holding two very prestigious scholarships. They saw nothing wrong with my topic obviously, even though it does touch on sex quite often. My university will decide in less than 3 weeks whether I deserve that PhD or not, NOT the Moodle community, and I certainly have a lot more faith in my professors in deciding whether my dissertation is reasoned academic discourse or trench warfare than I would ever have in your judgment, Julian. Because you obviously have no clue about the difference. I hope you continue to enjoy wearing your little helpful Moodler hat. I know I will enjoy wearing the real thing in December. Especially since a diploma comes with it, not an electric cattle prod.
(Note: I am sure Julian doesn't speak for Martin here, so my remarks on Julian above should not be seen as a commentary on the Moodle leadership or the moderators of this course.)
I think that this characterization of Julian is unduly harsh. I do not consider his viewpoint to be comprised of "lies" although I can see that you differ on interpretation. I find this very distressing and to be a personal attack on someone who does much good. Please stop.
atw
atw
It is a fact that there was no 'warning' in the original thread (although there were questions about whether the thread should continue-but that is quite different from a warning to stop) and it is a fact that I never was told personally to stop participating in the thread, by anyone, in a position of authority or otherwise. The thread disappeared, and I was informed it was gone. HIs characterizations of the roles of particularly helpful Moodlers has been deemed incorrect by Martin.
I would like to find common ground on this matter. But Julian's post was outrageous and I admit my response to it was harsh, but of all the things that have been said on this issue, this one is the only one that made me boiling angry. Other things have been said and not said that have been mystifying, perplexing, but nothing I found offensive like what Julian said.
I would like to find common ground on this matter. But Julian's post was outrageous and I admit my response to it was harsh, but of all the things that have been said on this issue, this one is the only one that made me boiling angry. Other things have been said and not said that have been mystifying, perplexing, but nothing I found offensive like what Julian said.
Julian Ridden has been very busy making a Moodle moot a success too apparently, including sacrificing his wedding anniversary. Enough to make anyone want to delete ten threads probably.
I don't disagree that Julian has done a lot of good. And I appreciate what he has done. But I would hope that we could all be mature and objective here and realize that just because he has done a great job in organizing a Moot and running the Playpen doesn't give him carte blanche to twist the truth about what has happened and to treat us all like schoolgirls who don't respond to teacher's "prodding." I don't agree with the one right and one wrong make a right attitude.
I know I am late to this discussion, but I felt I must comment too. I know that some of the content discussed in this, and Art's thread may have had some topics that may have been unconfortable to some, but I felt that the civil and heated discussions were both enlightening and instructional. For me it was not the content of the messages that was most interesting. We have heard many of the arguments before, although not always as eloquently.
It seems that the dynamics of the social and psychological interactions were very interesting and will be worthy for further study. Teachers and Learners should know how interactions can occur in their Moodle course forums, both in how to moderate and follow the communications.
Someone re-reading these might find enough data for a Master's Thesis.
I want to personally thank all the contributors. I learned alot.
Is it just me or is there something monumental going on here? I think media students may be referring back to these discussions in years to come. I am happy that the right decisions seem to have been made, but am sorry for the emotional turmoil Josep has had to go through. As is often the case, I don't think anyone did anything wrong or was intentionally condescending.
But is something rotten in the State of Moodle? My fundamental concern is the potential of panoptic eye of database technology in general (not Moodle, but all Web technologies and search engines), which I feel may be used to restrict our/societies 'freedom' in the future. It may lead to an Orwellian surveillance and categorisation by an even less friendly technocracy than we currently live. Have we seen the potential for a micro incidence of this here, all done with good intentions?
Another concern of mine is that, like all LMS, Moodle itself encourages information to be locked behind password-protected areas by default, which goes against the good ethics of Web enthusiasts.
But is something rotten in the State of Moodle? My fundamental concern is the potential of panoptic eye of database technology in general (not Moodle, but all Web technologies and search engines), which I feel may be used to restrict our/societies 'freedom' in the future. It may lead to an Orwellian surveillance and categorisation by an even less friendly technocracy than we currently live. Have we seen the potential for a micro incidence of this here, all done with good intentions?
Another concern of mine is that, like all LMS, Moodle itself encourages information to be locked behind password-protected areas by default, which goes against the good ethics of Web enthusiasts.
About authentication, you'll find this is a requirement and history of nearly all education institutions across the planet, not to mention all company dealings and pretty much any group or club or family of people having a discussion - are you saying these are all unethical?
Well done you all for sorting it. These minor eruptions only go to strengthen the community.
About authentication, ooops... don't mind me.
About authentication, ooops... don't mind me.
Hi Paolo,
Thanks for your concern . But really, it hasn't been that bad.
Perhaps the way I express myself (and the length of my messages) makes
it look like I am really undergoing some major emotional crisis. I have
to admit I was a little pissed off at what had happened and that I
thought it was sad that it had happened precisely here. But it really
wasn't anything like an "emotional turmoil" at least not what I
understand as an emotional turmoil. Really
Josep M.
Thanks for your concern
Josep M.
In reply to Josep M. Fontana
Re: It's not rotten in the State of Moodle...its sweeet mate!
by Julian Ridden -
It is quote amazing atht after all this time (some of us have been here a while) we still manage to sometimes completely misunderstand each other.
The best thing about this community however is that we always manage to get over the hump and move on with a better and stronger understanding than before. (evn the most stubborn of us).
While this particular event may have gottena little messy, the constructive growth and new directions formed have still been nothing but constructive and community building.
Here's to the ongoing process of open communication and sharing.
Wooooooohoooooo
p.s. note careful usegae of e, us, etc
p.p.s. Sorry for the immature weeeee..it just seemed appropriate
The best thing about this community however is that we always manage to get over the hump and move on with a better and stronger understanding than before. (evn the most stubborn of us).
While this particular event may have gottena little messy, the constructive growth and new directions formed have still been nothing but constructive and community building.
Here's to the ongoing process of open communication and sharing.
Wooooooohoooooo
p.s. note careful usegae of e, us, etc
p.p.s. Sorry for the immature weeeee..it just seemed appropriate
Please settle down, and please take care naming your public discussions.
Here are some factors:
1) I have always had a policy of not censoring discussions, unless the content was broadly offensive/useless (we deleted some porn stuff and spamming for example). I mean for this policy to continue.
2) The thread is just hidden for a while to let things cool down while we decide what to do. It wasn't me who hid it but I was made aware of it and approved it (even though I was actually just about to split it up into separate discussions).
3) I'm personally really busy with other things like developing Moodle, and haven't had time to engage this with this before now. I really wish some of the people posting here had that same problem as me but that's just my opinion.
4) A lot of new people (young and old) are coming here for help and for discussion about Moodle, that's what it is for. For some of them, being confronted with free-flowing adult discussion about nazis, sexuality etc can be disturbing. We had complaints, and I can understand that point of view.
5) The Moodle community is growing rapidly ...this course is being a bit overloaded with posts now - it can't keep growing without some re-structuring.
6) The job of a facilitator in any community is to steer conversation along relevant topics, and to restructure the environment as necessary.
I'm strongly convinced that the best thing to do now is to move the social forum away to a separate course on moodle.org. This will allow anyone to enrol there easily and carry on socialising (because it is important, no doubt!) without contributing to the overload of this course (which is after all called Using Moodle).
I'll arrange for the move in the next few days (all the content from this forum will be moved there). If you would like to be one of the facilitators of the new course please message me privately giving some good reasons why you are good for the job. With Moodle 1.7 we can potentially give all participants moderating rights in the forums too
Cheers!
Martin
Here are some factors:
1) I have always had a policy of not censoring discussions, unless the content was broadly offensive/useless (we deleted some porn stuff and spamming for example). I mean for this policy to continue.
2) The thread is just hidden for a while to let things cool down while we decide what to do. It wasn't me who hid it but I was made aware of it and approved it (even though I was actually just about to split it up into separate discussions).
3) I'm personally really busy with other things like developing Moodle, and haven't had time to engage this with this before now. I really wish some of the people posting here had that same problem as me but that's just my opinion.
4) A lot of new people (young and old) are coming here for help and for discussion about Moodle, that's what it is for. For some of them, being confronted with free-flowing adult discussion about nazis, sexuality etc can be disturbing. We had complaints, and I can understand that point of view.
5) The Moodle community is growing rapidly ...this course is being a bit overloaded with posts now - it can't keep growing without some re-structuring.
6) The job of a facilitator in any community is to steer conversation along relevant topics, and to restructure the environment as necessary.
I'm strongly convinced that the best thing to do now is to move the social forum away to a separate course on moodle.org. This will allow anyone to enrol there easily and carry on socialising (because it is important, no doubt!) without contributing to the overload of this course (which is after all called Using Moodle).
I'll arrange for the move in the next few days (all the content from this forum will be moved there). If you would like to be one of the facilitators of the new course please message me privately giving some good reasons why you are good for the job. With Moodle 1.7 we can potentially give all participants moderating rights in the forums too
Cheers!
Martin
Thanks for this sensible and pragmatic solution.
Not all the posts have been about the right to talk about Nazis and sexuality though. I think there is some genuine uncertainty about who does what and why in Moodle. I am now really unclear about the role of PHMs and partners for example. In Using Moodle, I could see who the moderators were but hadn't realised that a posting from Julian could be a warning.
I know that I have spent too much time on the Social forum in the last few days but one of the reasons for the time I spent was to try to understand more about how the Moodle community works and where it is going.
At one level, this has just been a lot of hot air but at another it indicates puzzlement and the surfacing of questions that have been bubbling under for some time. Where can dialogue take place about such things?
Not all the posts have been about the right to talk about Nazis and sexuality though. I think there is some genuine uncertainty about who does what and why in Moodle. I am now really unclear about the role of PHMs and partners for example. In Using Moodle, I could see who the moderators were but hadn't realised that a posting from Julian could be a warning.
I know that I have spent too much time on the Social forum in the last few days but one of the reasons for the time I spent was to try to understand more about how the Moodle community works and where it is going.
At one level, this has just been a lot of hot air but at another it indicates puzzlement and the surfacing of questions that have been bubbling under for some time. Where can dialogue take place about such things?
I've made the new course here: http://moodle.org/course/view.php?id=55
That would be a good place for dialogue like that.
Julian has no special rights here other than being a Particularly Helpful Moodler, but I respect his opinion just like that of all users here. Julian did not shut that thread down. The facilitators of any Moodle course are, as always, listed on the Participants page.
That would be a good place for dialogue like that.
Julian has no special rights here other than being a Particularly Helpful Moodler, but I respect his opinion just like that of all users here. Julian did not shut that thread down. The facilitators of any Moodle course are, as always, listed on the Participants page.
- This forum can be seen by clicking on Free Support link and hence a new comer to Moodle may be exposed to things for which he/she was perhaps not looking for. When I was a new comer, it took me a while to figure out how to proceed for support.
- It is understandable how it may feel if posts are removed especially if one has taken pains to write them. But, some differences in opinions need to be sacrificed on the larger interest of Moodle as a whole.
Manish.