I just noticed that the postings of some people have a star under their mugshot? Martin, could you elucidate on how this is determined? Is it specific to this Moodle, or a generally-available feature?
Incidentally, when I tried to search for "star" to see if their were any postings on it, all I got where hits on "start". Placing a space after "star " didn't work either since spaces are apparently stripped. Is this a bug or a feature?
Click on the "My Groups" link (under the "Participants" link).
You could also just hover your mouse over it to see the group description. I posted briefly about the stars here. (To search for a whole word use +star 
)
It was just meant to help newcomers get a quick handle on who the "experts" are in the community. I hope the star is not causing an "us and them" situation. What do you think?
It was just meant to help newcomers get a quick handle on who the "experts" are in the community. I hope the star is not causing an "us and them" situation. What do you think?
Ah! My question would seem to show how much of an "expert" I really am. (And how well I can spell.) 
I did try clicking on the star, but I guess I didn't hover long enough to get the gloss.
It probably won't create an 'us & them" situation but might cause resentment among those who personally feel that they should have been included. Then there are those, whom it might spur on in hopes of being included in the future.
When I was trying to figure out the meaning, I noticed a couple of people who I assumed were more worthy than me but who didn't have a one and this caused me to abandon my initial hypothesis! Of course, creating objective criteria and sticking to them would be too much of a hassle to be worth it for something like this. It does make a good illustration of one use of the groups function.
Now, how about a group for anyone who post messages after being enroled for less than 24 hours -- a nice green horn.
It probably won't create an 'us & them" situation but might cause resentment among those who personally feel that they should have been included. Then there are those, whom it might spur on in hopes of being included in the future.
When I was trying to figure out the meaning, I noticed a couple of people who I assumed were more worthy than me but who didn't have a one and this caused me to abandon my initial hypothesis! Of course, creating objective criteria and sticking to them would be too much of a hassle to be worth it for something like this. It does make a good illustration of one use of the groups function.
Now, how about a group for anyone who post messages after being enroled for less than 24 hours -- a nice green horn.
It's very likely I've missed people - I'll happily take nominations sent via email!
The "star" is not the best icon ... I'll replace it with a Moodle hat.
Those of you using Internet Explorer will notice that the transparent PNG used for the star does NOT exhibit the bug in IE that puts a grey rectangle around transparent PNGs ... this is due to a clever hack that works around the bug with some special scripting.
The "star" is not the best icon ... I'll replace it with a Moodle hat.
Those of you using Internet Explorer will notice that the transparent PNG used for the star does NOT exhibit the bug in IE that puts a grey rectangle around transparent PNGs ... this is due to a clever hack that works around the bug with some special scripting.
Green horn ...
I tried replacing the star. The hat on its own looks wierd ... the hat with the m under it looks a little busy I think. Suggestions welcome. Perhaps a new hat from a different angle?
One day I think we'll be able to use the forum ratings to determine membership of this group. Basically, my criteria is "people who post helpful information and code more often than they are asking others for help or new features".
I'm trying the plain hat ... is it clear what it is, do you think?
Either hat looks fine to me though the hat alone is a bit less noticible. I like the hat better than the star, though, since the star does have connotations of an 'award' for good work ratherr than a simple, factual designation.
I'm afraid I don't have the graphics tools to do this, but perhaps the hat completely superimposed over the moodle 'm' would be a bit more salient.
Well, on second thought, I gave it a try. This is only a mockup since it is very poorly rendered.
I'm afraid I don't have the graphics tools to do this, but perhaps the hat completely superimposed over the moodle 'm' would be a bit more salient.
Well, on second thought, I gave it a try. This is only a mockup since it is very poorly rendered.
I see no hat yet. But agree a hat is better since non-value-laden.
To force a new graphic to appear, when it has the same name as an old one, try these actions:
Click on "reload" while holding down the shift key.
If that doesn't work (and often doesn't for me if the material is inside a frame), then right-click on the graphic and select 'open in a new window'. Then in the new window, perform the above step.
Once that is done, you can reload the main page and should now see the new graphic in place.
Click on "reload" while holding down the shift key.
If that doesn't work (and often doesn't for me if the material is inside a frame), then right-click on the graphic and select 'open in a new window'. Then in the new window, perform the above step.
Once that is done, you can reload the main page and should now see the new graphic in place.
Dear Thomas Robb
Oops, it did not occur to me that the image where there and I was just not viewing them properly. You certainly deserve your hat, which is very appropriate and meaningful. I think that you deserve two or three hats.
Tim
Timothy Takemoto
Actually for me, this didn't work either - when I right click on the image IE indicates that I am clicking on spacer.gif. I had to look at the source html and extract the URL of the image, open it manually, and then refresh. For those with the same problem, here's the URL: http://moodle.org/user/pixgroup.php/1/f2.png
Thanks, Zig. Had you tried refreshing the whole page first? Shift-key and reload button.
I see the same problem, and once I access directly to the file and shift-reload it is solved. I guess it is related to the "Automatic" default for Internet Caching in IE. I use that default because most of my users do and want to know their problems (that's the reason why I use mainly IE, instead of Mozilla and perhaps XP instead of Linux, just for desktop purposes).
Anyway, I think that just going to Tools Menu, Internet options, Internet Temp Files, Setup, and chaging "Auto" into "Each time the page is visited" would solve that. I have seen that kind of problems before.
By the way, I like the hat. I don't feel like a sheriff anymore
.
Anyway, I think that just going to Tools Menu, Internet options, Internet Temp Files, Setup, and chaging "Auto" into "Each time the page is visited" would solve that. I have seen that kind of problems before.
By the way, I like the hat. I don't feel like a sheriff anymore
Thanks Martin,
I hope that there are silver, bronze, blue, and grey stars sometime, so as to spur people those of use on that still have a long way to go (and getting further, since this is yet another request.)
The new discussion tree that appears when replying to a forum post is nice too. I think that perhaps the tree diagram should include those posts prior to one responded to, and not just aftwards. Invision Board, PHPBB etc, generally show the whole tree. (Further still
! )
Tim
I have never been fond of social separation and indications of ones ranking within a free and open community. Doing so takes people to different levels within there own ranks. And doing so can make some feel less respected and creditable as others. Now in a non open community such as a classroom ranking can work yet will also have dramatic effects on those not ranked yet are doing as much as others for the good of the class. Socially speaking, I am shocked to see moodle heading in this direction.
Floyd,
I hear what you are saying about ranking, etc., but after reading hundreds of Martin messages, I can't believe he has any kind of social notion tied up with this (that would be very anti-constructionist ). I think he is testing out group implementation at moodle.org, just like he has tested everything else out here, too.
I know that when I use groups in Moodle, it will be because I have one course with three sections of students. While the forums will continue to involve everyone in my course, it will be much easier for me to respond to one group of journals and assignments, etc. at a time. In classes where professors lecture to a large group (and have assistants to help with running break-out sessions), this feature will help break-down the activities and responsibilities accordingly.
Since moodle.org doesn't really have a parallel structure to that kind of academic classroom (or at least a parallel that we have envisioned yet), I suspect Martin was looking for a quick way to draw a moving line (and he chose something like frequency and focus). I am grateful the line wasn't drawn because of nationality (I love the growing diversity of voices and experiences here), because of coding prowess (I have none), because of discipline (how many 11th grade lit teachers are in this community?), or because of Moodle vision (or lack thereof--see my aborted library add-on idea). IMHO, it seems like we're all here to learn from each other and there really aren't any borders or fastened lines.
best,
Tom
I hear what you are saying about ranking, etc., but after reading hundreds of Martin messages, I can't believe he has any kind of social notion tied up with this (that would be very anti-constructionist
I know that when I use groups in Moodle, it will be because I have one course with three sections of students. While the forums will continue to involve everyone in my course, it will be much easier for me to respond to one group of journals and assignments, etc. at a time. In classes where professors lecture to a large group (and have assistants to help with running break-out sessions), this feature will help break-down the activities and responsibilities accordingly.
Since moodle.org doesn't really have a parallel structure to that kind of academic classroom (or at least a parallel that we have envisioned yet), I suspect Martin was looking for a quick way to draw a moving line (and he chose something like frequency and focus). I am grateful the line wasn't drawn because of nationality (I love the growing diversity of voices and experiences here), because of coding prowess (I have none), because of discipline (how many 11th grade lit teachers are in this community?), or because of Moodle vision (or lack thereof--see my aborted library add-on idea). IMHO, it seems like we're all here to learn from each other and there really aren't any borders or fastened lines.
best,
Tom
"It was just meant to help newcomers get a quick handle on who the "experts" are in the community. I hope the star is not causing an "us and them" situation. What do you think?"
The "us and them" situation has started. The problem is that, once a "hat" has put his opinion, perhaps people will be afraid to have a different one, or even worse, skim posts reading only the "hats". Many would think they deserve a "hat" and perhaps would fight for it.
I am very happy having that "hat", since I think I have contributed to Moodle, and I like to be recognoised, but... am I better than the user that has just discovered Moodle and posts about things he does and does not like and how to solve them? Perhaps his opinion would be better than mine, since I have been working with Moodle for a long time (well, not so long, but time enough). I would be thinking "Moodle" (even when I know many other LMS's) and he would be thinking pure "teacher", wich is much more important.
I really do not know if the hats would be a good or bad thing. Probably we would have both situations, but the message from Floyd has made me think about it. I do want all of us to be "us" and I do not want any "them" in this amazing community. What do you think about it (with or without "hats")?
Floyd made a great point when he said that given all of the evidence of Martin's project and educational philosophies, he would be surprised to see Moodle head into a ranking system similar to the ones Timothy mentioned. To be fair, Timothy's idea has not appeared as one of the goals of this particular Moodle feature, can we assume that Martin hasn't adopted it (yet)?
I also promise to stop posting my angle here and wait for other voices--I've been a forum hog today.
-T
I also promise to stop posting my angle here and wait for other voices--I've been a forum hog today.
-T
Tom Murdock,
As you have said, after reading hundreds of Martin messages, I can't believe he has any kind of social notion tied up with this (that would be very anti-constructionist ) You are right and thus why I am shocked to see this happening. Here is my point in example.
- What is the rules for obtaining a hat.
- Who decides these rules.
- How is the hat directed or made as a direction to others.
- Is the hat a form of EXSPERT as Martin has said or a group of founders?
- How is this experience logged. (Are hat holders randomly picked based on who likes who.
- Is it not Martin who says that everyone has knowledge. new knowledge you carry with you. Knowledge is strengthened if you can use it successfully in your wider environment. So when does someone become an expert.
- Is there truly a need to show this kind of thing in a open community.
As for testing, dont we have demo classes for that?
The separation comes from the us and them, labels of who has done more for the community, by showing of a silly hat. This is an outrage, for one, I know of one poster, (NOT ME) who does not have a hat and has posted more useful information for me then some with a hat. Again, separation but without a base of why there is such a separation.
Now with all that said, do not take my argument as I am upset, I am not. I have studied this type of behavior in online communities that have devastated what made the community strong. I just have the voice and guts to say something, and try and protect the one community that I enjoy being a part of.
In reply to Floyd Collins
Re: The meaning of the star? - We have to think about it
by Ger Tielemans -
Which stupid person came with this stupid American Star idea.
(Maybe it was me 
when I wrote in a forum several months ago that a teacher at our university - a teacher with an American background - puts in TeLeTOP a cup next to the best answers of the students, so the others could look and learn form it. Well. at least that had an informative reason.Sorry guys, maybe do I earn that other evil American habit to put that donkey hat on my head.)
- the hat is for beginners to know who can help them? A beginner goes in a forum and sees a star or a hat and he knows what that means??? If he clicks on the hat nothing happens!! But if the same beginner clicks on the head above the hat or on a head without a hat, unless the head on the picture has his own hat - yes ART I saw your new head with hat!! - he gots a full description of that person, his skills in a long description and even his email adress to ask him questions, so the functionality was already there.
Reading an email of any person can make you curious, why "kicking" only on people who leave their hat on? I am not Randy Newman!!
It is more logical that a beginner clicks on the frontpage on participants and expects there a who is who catalog of people and their roles in Moodle. PHP-experts, MySQLexperts, LDAP-experts, Quizzexperts, ExerciseExperts etc.. Choose one from the yellow sublists
(Of course I claim for my self my own category: "look out for that man, he let you do more Moodle work for free then is healty for your soul.")
Also the criterium is not elegant choosen, if you "think as a MoodleMan"
Chosing people who give more answers then raise questions?? Isn't real wisdom raising new questions instead of thinking that you know all the answers?
Isn't that the role of artists, clowns and philosophers in a sound community?
Ahum, but please, keep answering my questions!! 
The current forum rating does not work? Well the first reason could be that is not a real scale but just a fun-drop-down-box, I never saw that as a serious tool. The other reason is that you do not get feedback when you fill in your ratings, I checked it just now to be sure it still is that way. (No real feedback on an action: a main sin in the world of interface design)
Before we kill the hat-option: If we agree that a beginner should look under participants in a kind of who is who catalog, then what purpose could the hat serve? Quality of answers? Well, yes but very broad if you care about an activ community, I think....
In the academic world we use a citation index: If you write an article and lots of others react on you then you also earn your community-hat in real academic life.
So work for Martin:
- Calculate the number of answers every forum entry gets (Thomas you can help here)
- Go no deeper then lets say 5 levels (Delgado can create an XMLtree for that)
- Answering yourself does not count ( Zbigniew can help to check on IPadress)
- calculate the best scores and give these people a full applepie (Tom or Floyd, draw an applepie, the best will win..or not: we CAN VOTE FOR IT like in IDOLS)
- All the others got their relativ part of an applepie, compared to the best (Timothy you test for cheating and can take away some not deserved hats; by the way Timothy you stole my answer, that costs you a hat!)
- And I? I will be again the superuser, thank you guys
I also know a trick to fool this Moodle Citation Index:
Happy New Year and Best Wishes To You All from a snowy Holland!!
"yes ART I saw your new head with hat"
Hmmm.... Hope I didn't offend anyone...
The new icon and the hat are not related. I saw the image and it made me laugh. Tough American biker-baby. Ha ha! (See this post.) Just thought I'd post the picture for a couple of days - just for fun.
As far as the hat is concerned, I figured Martin was just testing groups and was using a few frequent posters to do so. No big deal, just moodling around...
At any rate, I am sure that this is simply healthy debate and I am confident that it will all be settled in typical, amicable Moodle-style. That's my impression of the culture of this community. It's been pretty much a flame-free zone full of kind, helpful folks and I don't really think that will change any time soon.
Best regards,
Art Lader
Hmmm.... Hope I didn't offend anyone...
The new icon and the hat are not related. I saw the image and it made me laugh. Tough American biker-baby. Ha ha! (See this post.) Just thought I'd post the picture for a couple of days - just for fun.
As far as the hat is concerned, I figured Martin was just testing groups and was using a few frequent posters to do so. No big deal, just moodling around...
At any rate, I am sure that this is simply healthy debate and I am confident that it will all be settled in typical, amicable Moodle-style. That's my impression of the culture of this community. It's been pretty much a flame-free zone full of kind, helpful folks and I don't really think that will change any time soon.
Best regards,
Art Lader
Yes Art, a day without a laugh is a day not lived.
By the way - complete off topic ( I saw you could earn ratings for that) - do you know that we have a castle in The Netherlands called Muiderslot.
They have a painting there where people have a cauliflower instead of their head.
The story goes that people who do not like their own head can give it back for recrafting.
In the meantime they have to wear these cauliflowers, waiting for their new head. My two daughters were very impressed by this story, fearing to lose their own head.
I was in Holland this past summer, but somehow I missed Muiderslot. Guess I was too busy riding my bike, listening to the *amazing* bands that seemed to play in every town square and enjoying the occasional beer.
By the way, I had no idea that the summers were so HOT in Netherlands!
Best regards,
Art Lader
Aiken High School
By the way, I had no idea that the summers were so HOT in Netherlands!
Best regards,
Art Lader
Aiken High School
In reply to Floyd Collins
Re: The meaning of the star? - We have to think about it
by Timothy Takemoto -
Urk, Sadly, I fear I am the "stupid person came with this stupid American Star idea."
While I believe there is a place for hats and other non-constructivim (rewards, egos, and other nasty things) I must admit that the Moodle community functions well without them. Clearly our esteeemed hatted freinds, that have contribute so much this far, are of a temperament that does not need such trivia, and hence the arrival of hats may do more harm than good.
I think that if hats are implemented, then objective criterion (as suggests in points 1-6 by Floyd above, perhaps using some sort of peer review) are very important. If it is left up to any individual to make decisions, then that decision may be resented. It has to be an automated or at least dispersed thing. That would make it both more objective, and meaningless and thus easier to ignore. This is moot.
I think that this hat addition was mainly simply a groups testing endeavour. Now that we can see that the groups functionality worked, I wont mind if they are scrapped here on Using Moodle. At the same time, I would like to see some sort of hat functionality OPTION included in future versions of the forum module but perhaps not here.
So, I am sorry. I take it all back. If they annoy then let the hats be scrapped! Especially as I am not likely to get one! I jest. I think. Or set it to a vote? Since I like seeing hats on my benefactors, I will vote for them, but I am definately a democrat.
Timothy
Takemoto
In reply to Timothy Takemoto
Re: The meaning of the star? - We have to think about it
by Floyd Collins -
If the goal is to lable persons in this
community, a more appropriate way of doing so would be with a system that shows
what the user talents are and how they contribute to the community. For example,
under Martin name would be creator, then the developers would have developer and
moderator would have moderator. Mine for example would be, system administrator
and teacher. A web designer would have web designer. If you truly want to show new
people coming to moodle who is who, then make sure there is room for everyone to
have a place.
I also hope that I have not offended anyone! I work hard at looking at all angles for a reason as to why things are like they are. I hope everyone knows I am truly looking at this from an outsiders view. I for one bow to the creators and developers of this software and all open source software. Yet I must keep my open source ides in tact as I add my piece to the moodle community even if it is only the prospective from a Administrator/ Teacher it is what I have to offer, hat or no hat.
In reply to Floyd Collins
Re: The meaning of the star? - We have to think about it
by Janne Mikkonen -
I think this issue is getting way bigger than it really is 
. But what we can do? Enviousness is a basic quality for mankind...
I'd really like to cut wings for this issue that is rising ill temper among our fine community. Everybody have a place in here whoever they are or what skills do they have.
In reply to Janne Mikkonen
Re: The meaning of the star? - We have to think about it
by Dr. Ali Abureesh -
I totally agree with Janne. I think this issue is taking more than it actually deserves. In fact I cant see any harm of some member having a Star, for after all we are here to help each other and test the different possibilities for the enhancement of this developing project which we all hope to see it rated as a five star e-learning environment. Instead of spending our time taking things personal and feeling that there is a kind of segregation within this cooperative community because of just a star, let us go back to work and keep in mind the good intentions. Finally, personal it doesnt make any difference to me if Ive a star or not; the only thing I keep thinking of, in respect to Moodle community, is to help and above to share and learn.
In reply to Dr. Ali Abureesh
Re: The meaning of the star? - We have to think about it
by Timothy Takemoto -
At least this discussion demostrates the power of the star/hat. I never cease to be surprised by the power of symbols.
Since symbols are free (to the dispenser) and they have such power, it seems a shame that they cannot be brought to some enjoyable, judiscious use.
I too am fine with the hats but I do not want to upset people.
Tim
In reply to Janne Mikkonen
Re: The meaning of the star? - We have to think about it
by David Delgado -
Janne, it is not a matter of "Enviousness", it is a matter of "community". Do you think that we are in any way "superior" to "them" just by having a "hat"? There is nothing to be enviouness about, and it is that kind of thinking what I think that could be dangerous for this community.
We all know that "Everybody have a place in here whoever they are or what skills do they have", but we should also say that "nobody is better than anyone" also. I am sorry, but I had to say this, since people is starting to complain about all this stuff.
I am sure you just want to help and that you are a good member of this community, so let's just work together and let Moodle grow!
We all know that "Everybody have a place in here whoever they are or what skills do they have", but we should also say that "nobody is better than anyone" also. I am sorry, but I had to say this, since people is starting to complain about all this stuff.
I am sure you just want to help and that you are a good member of this community, so let's just work together and let Moodle grow!
In reply to David Delgado
Re: The meaning of the star? - We have to think about it
by Floyd Collins -
Yes, I agree but still it needed to come to light. I do not care who has a hat and who does not. Its not a matter of Enviousness as David has said. For me it was just something that we need to be aware of and undestand its impact on the community. Yet just the fact that Janne said Enviousness, brings closure to my comment.
In reply to David Delgado
Re: The meaning of the star? - We have to think about it
by Janne Mikkonen -
Yes David, you're absolutely right .
It was my poor attempt to add some irony to this conversation, sorry about that 
.
Like Ali and you have said, we (this community, no "us" or "them", but we) really should consentrate to work together and joy each others company.
So we don't get too serious let's take it like Eric Idle did in "Life of Brian" - Allways look on the bright side of life...
Cheers,
Janne
In reply to Timothy Takemoto
Re: The meaning of the star? - We have to think about it
by Timothy Takemoto -
I just thought I would agree with myself and Floyd again, with [comment].
> I think that if hats are implemented, then objective criterion (as suggested
> in points 1-6 by Floyd above, perhaps using some sort of peer review [e.g. the stars]) are
> very important. If it is left up to any individual [such as Martin Dougiamas]
> to make decisions, then that decision may be resented. It has to be an
> automated or at least dispersed [democratic] thing. That would make it both
> more objective, and [from an inter-personal perspective] meaningless
> and thus easier to ignore.
In reply to Timothy Takemoto
Re: The meaning of the star? - We have to think about it
by Steve Hyndman -
Replying to a 4-year-old thread....hummm...wonder what prompted that
Steve
In reply to Steve Hyndman
Number of forum posts of particularly helpful moodlers
by Timothy Takemoto -
It was your avatar, Steve, that made me think about this issue again. I just happened to notice your avatar and took it to refer to hats and their merits.
For everyone's edification here is a typical (used on most other forums e.g. phpbb) example of the information that is displayed underneath user avatars, not hats but the number of forum posts that the user has made.
This graph (click for full detail, with names or see attached for excel file with data) shows the number of forum posts made by "particularly helpful moodlers," as the number of pages required to display their forum posts on their profile page. Actual numbers of Using Moodle forum posts are approximately five times the numbers show below.
E.g. Second only to Martin Dougiamas, Howard Miller has made more than 3000 forum posts.
At about 10,000 forum posts, Martin Dougiamas' forum posts to Using Moodle are way off the scale of this graph.
Please accept my apologies for any mistakes in entering this data.
Of course the number of forum posts that a person has made is far from being a direct indication of their helpfulness. The number of forum posts that a user has made is, however, an objective fact and would be quite easy to display should those that design moodle be interested in displaying this sort of objective data.
Tim
In reply to Timothy Takemoto
Re: Number of forum posts of particularly helpful moodlers
by Steve Hyndman -
"The number of forum posts that a user has made is, however, an objective fact and would be quite easy to display should those that design moodle be interested in displaying this sort of objective data."
Now why would anyone want to confuse things with objective data?
By the way, nice chart...very revealing
Steve
What a fascinating discussion to wake up to - thanks everyone! 
The hats were only intended to reward behaviours which I, as facilitator, am trying to promote in these Using Moodle forums (because they are beneficial to the community in general). It's meant to recognise people who stand out as being particularly connected and helpful (which is not necessarily the same as people who post a lot in a well-intentioned way). The idea was mostly to help newcomers to identify role models. No ranking was intended.
Unfortunately, because the forums are so connected with Moodle development the hats can easily be tied up with all sorts of other meanings. The star (which was an education joke to start with) was not a good choice, and even the hat is a powerful symbol. I never anticipated how strongly that would affect the look of the forums.
I think on balance any sort of symbol that separates people in this course will probably cause more trouble than they solve, but I'll make a few of my observations from the past few days:
Positive:
Negative:
To me this indicates that applying symbols to groups within a classroom (much like logos, or military ranks, or grafitti tags) can have a lot of potential to stir up emotion, discussion and role-playing. Applied properly this looks like a very powerful tool for facilitating and guiding class interaction.
I'm looking forward to more experimentation with all this once 1.2 is released! In the meantime, I'll guess I should remove the symbol from that group (sorry, hat guys!).
Note there has been another new feature recently, which is that forum ratings can now be public (and have been made so for most of these forums) so perhaps we can use that as a more immediate and democratic way of rating participation here.
The hats were only intended to reward behaviours which I, as facilitator, am trying to promote in these Using Moodle forums (because they are beneficial to the community in general). It's meant to recognise people who stand out as being particularly connected and helpful (which is not necessarily the same as people who post a lot in a well-intentioned way). The idea was mostly to help newcomers to identify role models. No ranking was intended.
Unfortunately, because the forums are so connected with Moodle development the hats can easily be tied up with all sorts of other meanings. The star (which was an education joke to start with) was not a good choice, and even the hat is a powerful symbol. I never anticipated how strongly that would affect the look of the forums.
I think on balance any sort of symbol that separates people in this course will probably cause more trouble than they solve, but I'll make a few of my observations from the past few days:
Positive:
- Those with hats are proud to have the recognition
- Many of those with hats have been trying a little harder recently to live up to their "status"
- Some feel fairly passionate about it
- Some people without hats seem to be trying a little harder (to get one?)
Negative:
- People without hats can feel like they are missing out on something
To me this indicates that applying symbols to groups within a classroom (much like logos, or military ranks, or grafitti tags) can have a lot of potential to stir up emotion, discussion and role-playing. Applied properly this looks like a very powerful tool for facilitating and guiding class interaction.
I'm looking forward to more experimentation with all this once 1.2 is released! In the meantime, I'll guess I should remove the symbol from that group (sorry, hat guys!
Note there has been another new feature recently, which is that forum ratings can now be public (and have been made so for most of these forums) so perhaps we can use that as a more immediate and democratic way of rating participation here.
This has turned into a very interesting and thought
provoking discussion. I plan on using this thread as part of my internet social
communications class and debate. I hope I have not offended anyone and if I
have I am sorry. My reason for speaking out if you will was more to bring the
issue of branding, labeling, symbolizing or what ever you wish to call it to a
better understanding. Not only for the community but also for those who have
the symbol.
Now that the smoke has cleared let me just add, that it is perfectly
normal for one to want to be part of a group(
) Many groups are formed based on
many different things. But whenever a group is formed, it either has to be open,
for all who ask or closed with restrictions based on criteria. Remember this
teachers, as we form groups in our own classes, and remember the feelings of
the others. No one likes to be the last to be picked for dodge ball (A gym game). I think
this thread is good and healthy; once more I am sorry if I have offended anyone
in any way.
I cannot speak for anyone else, of course, but I did not find anything that you wrote the least bit offensive. In fact, I found the conversation quite interesting, but not offensive.
Best regards,
Art Lader
Aiken High School
Best regards,
Art Lader
Aiken High School
Great discussion. Moodle is "The Germinator" in many ways. Just wanted to comment on a couple of things you said Floyd.
"But whenever a group is formed, it either has to be open, for all who ask or closed with restrictions based on criteria."
As soon as we're exposed to any group we begin to form the criteria that ultimately will close that group to someone, or more likely, many. Human nature. When has there ever been a truly open group that maintained it's open status indefinitely. Wonderful ideal though. And I mean that as I'm a social democrat, darn labels again, and place a very high value on inclusiveness.
"No one likes to be the last to be picked for dodge ball (A gym game)."
No, no one does like to be picked last for anything, except the executioners block maybe. I think the reality is that if we don't like to be picked last we will learn, eventually, to get up earlier, make a better effort, practice more. As a social democrat I'll make sure that everyone gets a ride to the dodge-ball court but I can't make everyone be the best dodge-ball player. Only they can. Competition is good, it's what has gotten us this far.
"But whenever a group is formed, it either has to be open, for all who ask or closed with restrictions based on criteria."
As soon as we're exposed to any group we begin to form the criteria that ultimately will close that group to someone, or more likely, many. Human nature. When has there ever been a truly open group that maintained it's open status indefinitely. Wonderful ideal though. And I mean that as I'm a social democrat, darn labels again, and place a very high value on inclusiveness.
"No one likes to be the last to be picked for dodge ball (A gym game)."
No, no one does like to be picked last for anything, except the executioners block maybe. I think the reality is that if we don't like to be picked last we will learn, eventually, to get up earlier, make a better effort, practice more. As a social democrat I'll make sure that everyone gets a ride to the dodge-ball court but I can't make everyone be the best dodge-ball player. Only they can. Competition is good, it's what has gotten us this far.
John,
I have to first say,,, thank you for your insight into this conversation. I hope you understand and I think you do, that this is not an issue of who deserves the recognition and who does not. It is a matter of awareness of the impact on a community already in place when such a recognition takes place.
I do have to disagree with you on your first part about
groups to some degree. I have been in many online communities where the developers where just
as important as the ones testing. I think open source itself is an open and
free group that is not closed to anyone who wish to be part of the group. But I
see what your saying.
Your seconded part of this post, I agree fully. And yes competition
is a good thing. Yet with any sport or anything with competition you know the rubric
and what you must do to achieve your goal and become better. With regards to
the hat, this was never defined.
Good stuff, John. Your prospective on this issue is much needed.
.
Hi Floyd,
Thanks for the interesting posts and the dialogue. This is a very interesting topic although I really believe we've made more out of this than is necessary or intended. It has provided some insight into ourselves and the community.
Agreed, the real helpers, the one's that have always been here, long before "The Hat", and have always been willing to help, don't need a symbol of recognition. I can speak from my own experience in saying that when "The Star" first appeared I had a pretty good idea what it meant but I poked around a bit to see who had one and then compared their activities and skills and "online" personalities to try to determine why some of us hadn't received one. The absence of a star next to my name told me to re-assess my behavior and try to determine what I had, or hadn't done, to not receive a star. I had to admit to myself that maybe I needed to try harder, learn more, be more helpful, more often, to more participants. If I wasn't contributing at a level I was capable of I didn't deserve a star. I based this on the post that Martin referenced which started this whole "recognition" issue. I had to also leave the possibility open that the absence of a symbol was simply an oversight. Either way it made me think about my role here and that's a positive thing, period.
Do I "need" a star, or any other symbol? Not a chance. Anyone who does anything for the sole purpose of receiving recognition is likely in posession of an under-developed ego. I don't suffer from that condition. My ego doesn't need stroking but it is nice to be recognized. I'm a grown man and I'm pretty independant. I work for myself and run two businesses. I don't answer to anybody directly other than my wife, kids and customers. Having said that I was pleased to see "The Hat" show up next to my name as it indicated to me that someone had noticed my efforts here and, more importantly, that a new Moodler may see me as a helper. I was also extremely pleased to see the many helpful and very generous contributors recognized for their ongoing efforts in developing this software and this community. I think I was truly happier to see their hats than my own.
By observing the group activities the definition is clear. This is, for the most part, a very helpful, polite, well-mannered group. The historical actions of the group clearly define what is required of it's participants. This applies here, in the gym and in life.
Thanks for the interesting posts and the dialogue. This is a very interesting topic although I really believe we've made more out of this than is necessary or intended. It has provided some insight into ourselves and the community.
Agreed, the real helpers, the one's that have always been here, long before "The Hat", and have always been willing to help, don't need a symbol of recognition. I can speak from my own experience in saying that when "The Star" first appeared I had a pretty good idea what it meant but I poked around a bit to see who had one and then compared their activities and skills and "online" personalities to try to determine why some of us hadn't received one. The absence of a star next to my name told me to re-assess my behavior and try to determine what I had, or hadn't done, to not receive a star. I had to admit to myself that maybe I needed to try harder, learn more, be more helpful, more often, to more participants. If I wasn't contributing at a level I was capable of I didn't deserve a star. I based this on the post that Martin referenced which started this whole "recognition" issue. I had to also leave the possibility open that the absence of a symbol was simply an oversight. Either way it made me think about my role here and that's a positive thing, period.
Do I "need" a star, or any other symbol? Not a chance. Anyone who does anything for the sole purpose of receiving recognition is likely in posession of an under-developed ego. I don't suffer from that condition. My ego doesn't need stroking but it is nice to be recognized. I'm a grown man and I'm pretty independant. I work for myself and run two businesses. I don't answer to anybody directly other than my wife, kids and customers. Having said that I was pleased to see "The Hat" show up next to my name as it indicated to me that someone had noticed my efforts here and, more importantly, that a new Moodler may see me as a helper. I was also extremely pleased to see the many helpful and very generous contributors recognized for their ongoing efforts in developing this software and this community. I think I was truly happier to see their hats than my own.
By observing the group activities the definition is clear. This is, for the most part, a very helpful, polite, well-mannered group. The historical actions of the group clearly define what is required of it's participants. This applies here, in the gym and in life.
What about the idea:
- to place an extra fill-in-box on the edit-your-profile-page (or a link to a yellow-page-glossary?)
- everyone can describe the kind of help he/she has to offer to other moodlers.
- next to that box you choose your help category from a drop-down-list
- on the participants page you get access to a glossary with Moodle categories
- (help offering persons must have the chance to set an out of office flag)
- in version two new users can sent emails to the category of their choice and the helpers take as much requests as they want
- the help group also discusses - in public with a moderator - about the problems users have with Moodle and how to solve that, like for exaample the well known beginners mistake to create a test and not getting the tryout screen...
What all the forum tools are missing is a kind of "harvesting an reseed" the discussion like we all do in live discussions.. Now discussionthreads become to long and fade away...
The Moodle discussion are again to long to many.
If only a moderator could propose to clean up the discussionroom, sending interesting stuff to a FAQ and then restart on topics that the audiance finds interesting: guided democracy: he/she proposes six threads from the discussion for a restart, the others vote: only when there are enough votes for a restart that thread will go on air..
Good answer, Martin. Sorry I'm coming late to the party as I've just had my connection restored, 22 hours with no internet, no e-mail, ahhhh, just kidding. Actually I got a few chores done that were being neglected. It was still kinda weird though.
Anyway, back to the current topic. First of all I think the symbols were good for a number of reasons. I also thought they looked a little out of place in Moodle because this is, maybe, the least ego enhancing activity one can participate in. Every person here has had to ask a question about one thing or another. One day you're helping the next you're receiving help. The lead developer learns many things from the participants in these forums, more than we may imagine I'd guess. But then, this is a learning place, and a teaching place. Lots of smart people here, judging by this and many, many other discussions. The symbols, to me, were just that, symbols denoting someone who's been around here for a while and was willing to help, to the best of their ability. I got a hat but in my case, reading through some of my answers, or inability to answer, it should maybe have been a dunce cap. But I do try and help when I think I've got a useful answer. I liked my hat. It meant I'd learned enough to help someone else, if only on a basic level. It meant I'd taken the time to help, maybe more than once. I liked that a new Moodler may look to me for an answer if there weren't any smart people around at the time.
I liked my hat. Hats are good. They tell us something about the wearer. I think the mortarboard, as a symbol for Moodle, was a flash of genius. This is a learning place for people working to build and use learning software.
We can all ask for help and we can all offer help. Some help more than others. Many would help if they thought they could, many would love to help more than they do, many will help more when they learn more. Many will help when they've gained enough confidence. Those that can help, and then do help, will wear a mortarboard, although now, they will have to imagine it. And those looking for help will still get the answers they need, but then, they always did anyway. Symbols are important. Probably more so to the one looking for answers.
I think there are many people here who should be recognized for their skills and many people who should be recognized for their willingness to help. I really think these people should be recognized because they combine the two and really do help people. People like me who are trying to learn how to use Moodle to help others but wouldn't have a chance without these generous people who are willing to share their experience and give their time to help. Hats off to you all, you know who you are.
In closing, I was going to offer my hat to Timothy Takemoto for helping me to become more introspective than I've been in years. The guy says things and I go into this really deep introspective kinda place and have to re-examine my long-held philosophies and beliefs to see if they still work for me. Invariably they do still work for me but I seriously appreciate the provocation that provides this all too rare opportunity to think, I mean really think. Hats off to you too Tim, for saying what you think.
Martin, please put the mortarboard back next to your picture. The buck has to stop somewhere. In here the buck stops there. Symbols are important, where would we be without them.
Anyway, back to the current topic. First of all I think the symbols were good for a number of reasons. I also thought they looked a little out of place in Moodle because this is, maybe, the least ego enhancing activity one can participate in. Every person here has had to ask a question about one thing or another. One day you're helping the next you're receiving help. The lead developer learns many things from the participants in these forums, more than we may imagine I'd guess. But then, this is a learning place, and a teaching place. Lots of smart people here, judging by this and many, many other discussions. The symbols, to me, were just that, symbols denoting someone who's been around here for a while and was willing to help, to the best of their ability. I got a hat but in my case, reading through some of my answers, or inability to answer, it should maybe have been a dunce cap. But I do try and help when I think I've got a useful answer. I liked my hat. It meant I'd learned enough to help someone else, if only on a basic level. It meant I'd taken the time to help, maybe more than once. I liked that a new Moodler may look to me for an answer if there weren't any smart people around at the time.
I liked my hat. Hats are good. They tell us something about the wearer. I think the mortarboard, as a symbol for Moodle, was a flash of genius. This is a learning place for people working to build and use learning software.
We can all ask for help and we can all offer help. Some help more than others. Many would help if they thought they could, many would love to help more than they do, many will help more when they learn more. Many will help when they've gained enough confidence. Those that can help, and then do help, will wear a mortarboard, although now, they will have to imagine it. And those looking for help will still get the answers they need, but then, they always did anyway. Symbols are important. Probably more so to the one looking for answers.
I think there are many people here who should be recognized for their skills and many people who should be recognized for their willingness to help. I really think these people should be recognized because they combine the two and really do help people. People like me who are trying to learn how to use Moodle to help others but wouldn't have a chance without these generous people who are willing to share their experience and give their time to help. Hats off to you all, you know who you are.
In closing, I was going to offer my hat to Timothy Takemoto for helping me to become more introspective than I've been in years. The guy says things and I go into this really deep introspective kinda place and have to re-examine my long-held philosophies and beliefs to see if they still work for me. Invariably they do still work for me but I seriously appreciate the provocation that provides this all too rare opportunity to think, I mean really think. Hats off to you too Tim, for saying what you think.
Martin, please put the mortarboard back next to your picture. The buck has to stop somewhere. In here the buck stops there. Symbols are important, where would we be without them.
Some very interesting points have been made and everybody who has contributed to this discussion in whatever way is correct because they have all brought up some interesting points and everybody is entitled to his/her own opinion which makes this such a great forum. 
John has made a very intellegent response and so has Ger because I think that if people had the oppotunity to say what they can offer then people will know who to ask for certain things.
In reply to Graham Stone
Re: The meaning of the star/hat? - What if everyone chooses his own hat?
by David Delgado -
I think that would be really useful. Say, for example, that the guy that has just discovered Moodle chooses a "newbye" hat, people intereseted in teaching a "teacher" hat, the admins an "admin" hat, the developers a "developer" hat, people involved in "instructional design" a "designer" hat, the "all in one" a "moodler" hat, and so on... So, we could use hats, which would be really symbols in a much more constructivist way, knowing the interest and point of view of one person just for a symbol that HE has choosen. This could be changed from the person pofile, and seen as a symbol as the hat we saw before. Very easy to code.
I really do like this option, that comes from this pasionate discussion and from all the different points of view I have seen here. What do you think?
I really do like this option, that comes from this pasionate discussion and from all the different points of view I have seen here. What do you think?
In reply to David Delgado
Re: The meaning of the star/hat? - What if everyone chooses his own hat?
by Graham Stone -
Good point David I totally agree with what you are saying, I think that is a fantastic idea and it would allow everyone to feel part of Moodle and it will also let people tell other users what level of experience they have and then people will know how technical to make their answers when replieing to peoples questions.
What do other people think about this ?
In reply to Graham Stone
Re: The meaning of the star/hat? - What if everyone chooses his own hat?
by Martin Dougiamas -
When you think about it, though, everyone already can do this to an extent with the user profile image and their description and in their choice of words in every post they make.
In reply to Martin Dougiamas
Re: The meaning of the star/hat? - What if everyone chooses his own hat?
by David Delgado -
Yes, they can do that, but few people reads profiles, and nearly nobody reads ALL of them. If we had that symbol below the picture of each user, we would know also their main interest in just a quick look, without having to read their profile, nor any text. Any time we read any post in any forum we would be starting to know the interests of many users.
It would be important, though, that the symbols were selected from a predefined set, since if anyone chooses any personal symbol, they would be nearly of no use, and would become rather decorative. For instance, in this community we could use the teacher, admin, designer, developer,... symbols. The default one could be "newbye".
As we have seen, as Timothy remarked, simple symbols have a great power, we just have to manage this power in a more constructive way, that is what I am proposing. Think of the impresive power that just 2 or three characters have to transmit emotions in emoticons, and that people use a lot. They can be used to distinguish a joke form an offense, for instance. Imagine also that all traffic signs were just text. 
I think that this could be a great improvement to Moodle, and, I think that, at this point, it would be easy to implement it. That is why I am proposing this. What do you think?
It would be important, though, that the symbols were selected from a predefined set, since if anyone chooses any personal symbol, they would be nearly of no use, and would become rather decorative. For instance, in this community we could use the teacher, admin, designer, developer,... symbols. The default one could be "newbye".
As we have seen, as Timothy remarked, simple symbols have a great power, we just have to manage this power in a more constructive way, that is what I am proposing. Think of the impresive power that just 2 or three characters have to transmit emotions in emoticons, and that people use a lot. They can be used to distinguish a joke form an offense, for instance
I think that this could be a great improvement to Moodle, and, I think that, at this point, it would be easy to implement it. That is why I am proposing this. What do you think?
In reply to David Delgado
Re: The meaning of the star/hat? - What if everyone chooses his own hat?
by Martin Dougiamas -
The best way to implement this would be with groups set up so that participants could pick one they wanted to join.
But ... (putting on my devil's advocate hat
) if groups are seen as having status, then what happens when people pick the high-status ones just because they can? For example in this course, what if someone identifies themselves as a developer when they clearly are not? That doesn't help anyone.
Another problem I see is that symbols have the power to put people in pigeonholes. Real people rarely fit into a single role. In this postmodern and complex world teachers are also designers, admins, developers etc ... I think if I were faced with that decision I would have a hard time making a choice - how about you? Multiple group memberships would be needed, and everything rapidly starts turning into the Geek Code. Hmm.
But ... (putting on my devil's advocate hat
) if groups are seen as having status, then what happens when people pick the high-status ones just because they can? For example in this course, what if someone identifies themselves as a developer when they clearly are not? That doesn't help anyone.Another problem I see is that symbols have the power to put people in pigeonholes. Real people rarely fit into a single role. In this postmodern and complex world teachers are also designers, admins, developers etc ... I think if I were faced with that decision I would have a hard time making a choice - how about you? Multiple group memberships would be needed, and everything rapidly starts turning into the Geek Code. Hmm.
In reply to Martin Dougiamas
Re: The meaning of the star/hat? - What if everyone chooses his own hat?
by Floyd Collins -
How about, simply putting where the hat was. Member Since (Date the member joined). Then setting the forums that if a user does not log into the community for a set amount of days they restart their membership status. Or if the restart idea is a bit much, then you could simply put Active Member Since (Date the member joined). Once activity picks back up for those who do not post much then they will receive the Active Member status.
I am a new Moodle user ( site up 2 month ) and I visit moodle-site to read new post's two or three times in a day. I also noticed first "star" and then "hat" and after 5 sec I figured the meaning of those marks. Yes !!! For newbies they are value of money. You can ask them something stupid and you don't get "read the stupid FAQ / manuals" answer back (what happens in many other internet communities ). Thanks for YOU all.
And then the reaction for those figures here..... it's like in my teachers room ....when I ( principal ) say that somebody has done a good job ....then the others critisizes ( behind my back ) the decission and the reason's for that.
We all are a part of our community, that needs ...wise answers ... and stupid questions.
Lasse
And then the reaction for those figures here..... it's like in my teachers room ....when I ( principal ) say that somebody has done a good job ....then the others critisizes ( behind my back ) the decission and the reason's for that.
We all are a part of our community, that needs ...wise answers ... and stupid questions.
Lasse
I guess the frequent negativity of the teacher's lounge is an international phenomenon.
Best regards,
Art Lader
Aiken High School
Best regards,
Art Lader
Aiken High School
How about bringing the hat back?
Well...there was the idea of having a democratic hat. That is the hat that I would like to see.
In otherwords a hat based on the ratings given in the forums. Perhaps just in the developer's forum for a trial?
Or even in the future, a double grading system where, it is possible to rate with mouth alone and with money. Points could be bought and then given as grades to people that do useful things.
Tim