Moodle Forums - Why not Focus on Course Content and Use PHPBB, VBulletin, etc.

Moodle Forums - Why not Focus on Course Content and Use PHPBB, VBulletin, etc.

by Bill Wood -
Number of replies: 9

I LOVE Moodle, but I'm curious about why there is any development for a forum module?  Why not focus on Course Content delivery and just build integration to more extensive forums like PHPBB or VBulletin, or others?

http://www.phpbb.com/

http://www.vbulletin.com/

It seems to me that Moodle is a best of breed for open source e-education delivery, and should focus on that rather than spending the time and effort on forums that aren't as comprehensive...

Just my thoughts...

What do you think?

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Bill Wood

Re: Moodle Forums - Why not Focus on Course Content and Use PHPBB, VBulletin, etc.

by Đinh Lư Giang -
Hi,
This is also just my thought. I think forum module is only ONE of other Moodle modules. Using other open source forums is an good idea but moodle will have the same risk that those forums experience. I don't mean that php or vbulletin aren't safe. But imagine that phpbb (free) and vbulletin (commercial) have their updates, patches, what will moodle do then ? run after them ?

Also, it's difficult to integrate those forums into Moodle, and Moodle does not need such a complicated forum administration yet (Only my thought)

However integration or bridge as third parties will be very helpful.


Average of ratings:Useful (1)
In reply to Bill Wood

Re: Moodle Forums - Why not Focus on Course Content and Use PHPBB, VBulletin, etc.

by Michael Penney -
One problem with using other forum (or quiz, etc) software, is user confusion due to interface switching. If you've had to support 1000s of users using several different software applications, you'll know what I mean.

IMO, this gets to the core idea; why use an LMS at all? Why not use a forum from one place, a quiz tool from another, a content management tool from another vendor/project, yet another project for chat, etc. etc. and loosely couple them all together for authentication?

Sounds like a great idea from the point of view of a person who likes to learn numerous different interfaces. Often the majority of users of an LMS are students and faculty who often do not want to have learn different interfaces to get their work done (and who frequently tell me that they already have too many different interfaces to learn). There has been interesting work by Carl Berger, and others, looking at early adopters (willing to spend time learning different software applications, forgiving of bugs and mistakes) vs. the early majority, who tend more to want a single, simple system that is 'easy to use' and 'does just what I need it to do, and not more'.

From an overall perspective, each user will have to spend time learning what buttons to push to get their desired result in each of the different interfaces they are asked to use, as this time is multiplied over thousands or tens of thousands of users, IMO it may be more practical in the long run to build new features into Moodle rather than expect users (and support staff) to spend time learning different UI's for each feature.

In our recent evaluations of different LMS systems with faculty, the fact that Jforum (java phpBB clone) was so different from the rest of Sakai was counted as a strong negative by the faculty in the evaluation group (this example may be helpful as a reason JForum was integrated into Sakai was to provide features not offered by Sakai's forum module...on the other hand JForum doesn't integrate with Sakai's gradebook, is not backed up nor restored by the course archiving tool, etc. It's loosely integrated, which lets jforum development continue on it's own pace and schedule (in theory), but not tightly integrated (which would likely require common development agreements and compromises between Sakai and jforum or a fork of jforum for sakai--in which case you start to work your way back to the original problemsmile.

It may also be interesting to note that for just about every Moodle tool there are individual open source and/or commercial tools (quiz engines, contend delivery, gradebooks, etc.) that could be used instead. In many cases these individual tools were available since the late 90s. I think a big reason LMS systems (Blackboard, WebCT, Moodle) have been more popular with end users (faculty, students) than loosely coupled collections of individual projects is that for these users the benefits of a general system with a unified user interface outweighs the immediate benefits offered by using collections of non-integrated projects.

In reply to Michael Penney

Re: Moodle Forums - Why not Focus on Course Content and Use PHPBB, VBulletin, etc.

by A. T. Wyatt -
on the other hand JForum doesn't integrate with Sakai's gradebook, is not backed up nor restored by the course archiving tool, etc. It's loosely integrated, which lets jforum development continue on it's own pace and schedule (in theory), but not tightly integrated (which would likely require common development agreements and compromises between Sakai and jforum or a fork of jforum for sakai--in which case you start to work your way back to the original problem

Your response is right on target for us! Sharing data between the systems, backup, and transparency are all extremely important when you have a large number of users who run the gamut from total tech novices to very experienced. Even then, the very experienced are usually very experienced in some, not all, areas. My students still are somewhat baffled by wikis. . .they simply haven't used them much yet! But, you know, they are great with IM and video games! clown

atw
In reply to Bill Wood

Re: Moodle Forums - Why not Focus on Course Content and Use PHPBB, VBulletin, etc.

by Don Hinkelman -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers
Hi Bill,

You have touched the heart of Moodle, and its uniqueness, with your question. Let me answer pedagogically, why Moodle will never have an attached forum like phpBB or vbulletin.

Moodle is task-based. Not for content delivery. WebCT, Blackboard and countless others focus on content delivery (and some even call themselves LCMS-learning content management systems). Here learning happens via tasks that people do collaboratively, not so much solitary self-studiers interacting with a page of content. Moodle is flexible, so it *can* do content delivery if you want it to, but it is not actually intended to be used that way. The idea of task-based learning or project-based learning is a big discussion that we can get into. In short, task-based learning is focused more on student initiative and student generation of content, the anti-thesis of teacher-selected/designed content and delivery.

Moodle interface focuses on topics. Not on tools. Many LMS interfaces have you go to a chat area, a forum area, or a content area--and attach these standalone tools to enter. Moodle on the contrary, lays out a center window of topics (or weeks) that include all kinds of activities (tasks) mixed up with resources and links to achieve those tasks. Thus your forums are not centralized into one single forum area as in phpBB, but sliced up, and spread across the whole interface into specific topic areas that that particular forum applies to. It's incredibly brilliant. And that alone is a cool idea that Moodle can take pride in as a first invention I have never seen elsewhere.
Average of ratings:Useful (1)
In reply to Bill Wood

Forums are such an intregal part of collaborative learning

by Katherine Horton -

Just throwing in my thoughts. We are new Moodle users and are so pleased with the Forum module. It is essential for a number of the collaborative activities we use in our classes, such as case studies and team activities. Because it is an integral part of Moodle, there is no confusion for the learner. And, so far so good, it has worked like a charm--in 1.6+, not in 1.7.

In reply to Bill Wood

Re: Moodle Forums - Why not Focus on Course Content and Use PHPBB, VBulletin, etc.

by Frances Bell -
I wonder how the use of RSS feeds will grow with the increased use of desktop/Internet services such as http://www.netvibes.com/
RSS allows you to keep track of Moodle forums (and all sorts of blogs), only visiting when you want to reply or check out the structure of a thread. In a way, Moodle has already relented on 'users see different structures/views' by allowing users to view forums in different modes, and by the option for users to choose their own theme - what you see is not necessarily what she gets.
I am not entirely convinced by the argument about single user interface.

In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle Forums - Why not Focus on Course Content and Use PHPBB, VBulletin, etc.

by Michael Penney -
Both of these cause increased support issues in practice, even though they are actually the same UIsmile.

For large installs with many non-technical users, I've been asked to 'hack out' the ability to change themes and to show the forum in different views. Fortunately, there was no hacking required for the former and the later is also now configurable based on roles in 1.7+.

The importance of a single interface I would say really depends on your stakeholders: are the target users highly technically skilled individuals with plenty of time to learn several different UIs?

PS Netvibes certainly looks interesting, I guess another consideration for stakeholders would be whether you want it to be easy for your students to put an MTV feed alongside your course content (I know that for the above mentioned projects this would be an anathemasmile).


In reply to Michael Penney

Re: Moodle Forums - Why not Focus on Course Content and Use PHPBB, VBulletin, etc.

by Frances Bell -
Personally as someone who runs a Moodle site on a volunteer basis, I think it is a bit of a pain to try to support users who have different views but the move toward separation of form and content and the supposed push towards personalised learning environments may change users' expectations. Even the 'transformed VLE ' , see Scott Wilson's PLE diagram may not be what users want in a few years - they may want the interactive content to 'come to them' at their desktop rather in an official PLE - i.e. they may control their own PLE. If there really is a shift in control (e.g. increased use of blogs and wikis) then it may not always be about what 'we' want whoever we are.
When HE provided access to the Internet, things were different but increasingly students have their own broadband access and can exercise more choice about how they stay in touch with each other and their tutors.
Sites like flickr.com, del.icio.us, etc. know how to minimise the learning overhead and they all fit together without big shifts to the user.
I now use a link to del.icio.us tag in my Blackboard course (and would also do so if I was lucky enough to us Moodle for my uni course) so that I can update the web links in del.icio.us.
I think that the point you make about MTV feeds is misleading. What the student does on their own private desktop (effectively this is what netvibes is) is invisible to you. At the 'course', the teacher would link to appropriate feeds, they just may not all be in Moodle.