To "IMS" or not to "IMS" - What is the question??

To "IMS" or not to "IMS" - What is the question??

by W Page -
Number of replies: 11

Hi!

I have some more definition questions. 

  • What is "IMS"?
  • Why is "IMS" important?
  • Why would MOODLE care about "IMS"?

[IMS is also not in the glossary. angry wink]

Recently I saw "IMS" referred to in some of the forum posts.  I went over to "IMS" (http://www.imsproject.org/) to find out what it is and left the about/background page confused.

The problem I see at many of the CMS type sites is an "assumption of knowledge".  They assume a site visitor has a strong or solid base of information about CMS so not too much effort is put into the "about" pages to explain and define clearly many terms for poor souls like me who have some knowledge of CMS but are not career deep into it.  I also think it is a way to keep prospective clients mystified so that they will feel they need an expensive system and expensive support because it is just so hard to understand CMS.

Thanks in advance for any help with this.

WP1

Average of ratings: -
In reply to W Page

Re: To "IMS" or not to "IMS" - What is the question??

by Howard Miller -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
IMS is a group that is producing specifications for interoperability (if that's how you spell it) between VLEs and the like.

They have a number of specs out and about. The one you will hear about here is the QTI for importing/exporting quiz configurations in an XML format.

The formats are complex and reflect the diverse needs of the multiple contributing members. In practice they are difficult to handle.

I actually made some noises about developing IMS QTI import/export for quizzes but a quick poll of users shows that nobody (appears) to use it, want it, or need it. So I put that on the shelf for the time being.

You probably also want to have a look at the work on SCORM that is going on. There seems to be more interest and activity here. I know less about it though.
In reply to Howard Miller

Re: To "IMS" or not to "IMS" - What is the question??

by W Page -

Hi!

Thanks for responding.  Your response was very helpful in my understanding of "IMS".   If I may stretch your patience a bit, what is a "QTI"?

I am now beginning to get a handle on this CMS jargon.

SCROM and IMS appear to be competing LCMS (Learning Content Managment Systems) interoperability protocols.

I am going to check out MOODLE's glossary again for some of this CMS jargon and attempt to suggest definitions for some of the jargon that is not in the glossary and that a newbie like myself finds difficult to understand (or cannot find clear definitions of).  The linking feature in the glossary will, I think,  make these definitions helpful to other new Moodlers.  I will definately ask the seasoned folk like yourself in the MOODLE community to help me with this. big grin

Thanks again,

WP1

 

In reply to W Page

Re: To "IMS" or not to "IMS" - What is the question??

by Howard Miller -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
Hey watch out...

You can start a big academic debate about what a "CMS" *is*, and don't mention VLEs or MLEs

big grin
In reply to W Page

Re: To "IMS" or not to "IMS" - What is the question??

by Bruno Vernier -
I disagree:  SCORM and IMS are not competitors.  Here is my extremely simplified explanation:

- The US Dept of Defence is the largest consumer of online learning products on the planet.  They developped SCORM as a starndard for their suppliers (including in-house) to aim for so that they could mix and match different products without losing their sanity.

- Schools of every type on this planet have a smaller version of the same problem: over time, a mish-mash of various incompatible online learning products gets established and people start to really want to "rationalize" things:  for example:

  - we want to be able to transfer our course materials from one learning platform to the other

  - we want to be able to see the big picture of student achievement across the different learning platforms in use in our schools

  - we want to have central repositories of test items, learning objects, lesson plans (whatever) so as to avoid re-inventing the wheel forever ... such that these will work in any learning platform

- The big commercial suppliers of online learning products have a slightly different version of this problem:  they see their customers are reluctant to invest in a life-long relationship with their products (i.e. get locked in) ... so much so that they need to provide at least the illusion of free love (i.e. interoperability) ...

- The smaller commercial (as well as larger commercial suppliers affected by the great slump following the dot.com crash) really do need interoperability so that the e-learning market finally blossoms ... some firms would like to be brokers trading learning objects as if they were shares on the stock market, and the other firms would like to supply the learning objects to be thus traded ... and so everyone in the commercial world agreed to set up a standard called IMS that would lower transaction costs in this brave new market

They integrated/accomodated SCORM several years ago into the IMS standard ... so that SCORM should be viewed as the US DoD's implentation of IMS ... likewise, in Canada, many are tyring to push CanCORE as the Canadian implentation of IMS  (I think Ariadne is the European equivalent etc...)

In some ways, IMS (and its various implementations) have felt like the greatest vapourware project in the history of e-learning ... just about every organisation (including moodle) have announced the intention of complying to IMS standards (or SCORM or CanCORE etc..)

My gut feeling is that they discovered that just announcing this intention was sufficient to increase sales or interest and so actual implementation has tended to be less than spectacular from a technical point of view .... often it is just a small part of IMS that is implemented.

I think the reasons for that is that the topic is so abstract (it is usually about XML import/export for hypothetical situations) that the pressure from the base is not strong enough ... and many of the players are not motivated enough to finish the implementations.  Furthermore, the whole thing is a beast designed by international commitees and it lacks a good story-myth of creation that would get people excited about it for its own sake.

In the opensouce/freedom-software world, the IMS organisation has traditionally been viewed with ambivalence:

1.  We like standards ... we know that commoditized open standards have usually been our friends and IMS's standards (when they finally get released) are truly open.

2.  We dislike closed organisations:  IMS requires (or required) $1000 memberships in order to allow one to participate in the various committees to influence the design of IMS standards ...so we have been left out of the creation process ... something we dislike very much.

Conclusion:  IMS and SCORM are not competitors;  we should provide the illusion of wanting to conform to its standards and where useful, we should actually implement the relevant bits smile smile



In reply to Bruno Vernier

Re: To "IMS" or not to "IMS" - What is the question??

by Howard Miller -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
Errr.... where did I say that IMS and SCORM are competitors?

I think we have a long way to go for a truly interroperable standard(s).

I said to one of my colleagues jokingly that Moodle should produce its own system in XML (maybe we are someway down the line with the backup system). Then all we need is to write some XSLT to transform it into whatever you like. Maybe its not such a joke though smile

Oh... QTI is one of the IMS standards. Its the XML format for importing/exporting quizzes. Its very (maybe too) comprehensive, and comes in a full blown and lite version. You can get the DTD and the documentation from the site, although the dowload area and file packaging has been put together by some comedian, so you will enjoy actually finding the correct files.

In reply to Howard Miller

Re: To "IMS" or not to "IMS" - What is the question??

by Bruno Vernier -
WP, not you (Howard), said "SCORM and IMS appear to be competing LCMS "

I was responding to that legitimate confusion ... there is no need to take umbrage smile

(and for the record, not only are they not competing but they are not LCMS either ... I think WP appreciates that we correct these impressions)

Besides, I like your idea of a moodle XML format storage that could be transformed with XSLT to IMS/SCORM and other import/export formats as needed


In reply to Bruno Vernier

Re: To "IMS" or not to "IMS" - What is the question??

by W Page -
Hi Everyone!

Bruno, you are correct I do appreciate the corrections.  I would rather be corrected  by the friendly than by the not so friendly.

I could find an official "IMS" site but I still cannot find an official "SCORM" site.  However, in just my short time of attempting to obtain information on the web about these entities one thing is clear the sites about these entities or referring to these entities are good examples of deliberate confusionangry

When I get through reading through these sites I have to lay down and close my eyes because I have a headache with eye strain. black eye

Well I am gonna take a break and download MOODLE v1.2B (no beta character in editor). wink smile approve big grin

I thank everyone for their responses and input. 

Will still try to create some info from what I have received to place into the glossary.  Just need the break for now. 
Whew!!!!!

WP1


In reply to Bruno Vernier

Re: To "IMS" or not to "IMS" - What is the question??

by Howard Miller -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
Bruno...

No, no, no umbrage whatsoever... I was just confused big grin Your comments where very useful, I now can place SCORM in the mix a lot better than I could before.
In reply to Bruno Vernier

Re: To "IMS" or not to "IMS" - What is the question??

by Ger Tielemans -
Wrong wrong wrong

SCORM is very dangerous if you think that you need to be compatible with it and you do not realize that is only a small part of education:
Doing exercises on your own and keep records of it. Nothing wrong with that if you be aware that you have to learn also more important things in live. Learn to live in an open society, learn to cope with all kind of behaviour of people in a group you are part of and that chooses to work on a project together. (Remember that stupid hat incident?).

Moodle started on the other site, that social part, but is now growing into the perfect mix of moduls where you can learn things on your own with help of a teacher (quizzes, resources, hotpotatoes, journals,lessons, dialogues,.. ) and the groupactivities (forum, workshop,chat, glossary, choices,..) I only miss the part where students (socialglimlach)construct together there own knowledge artefacts.

So being in a sound way SCORM compatible means for Moodle that it can import and execute complex SCORM exercises and show the results in your personal gradebook, next to your scores for your groupactivities."

SCORM cannot handle groupactivities.. well they can simulate all the other members of a group... yes in a simulation.. (Also ideal for people who want to use Moodle in a Homeschool knipoog)

IMS tries to set ALSO standards for that other part of learning and that is very difficult and will take several years from now.

Yes the price to become a member of IMS is high, but why not find an organisation in your own country and let them speak for you? (We have a combination of The Dutch Normalisation Institute NEN and an organisation of Universities and Schools SURF. They are member of IMS, and we can visit their local working groups and talk with them about the proposals for standardization and exchange.)

What SCORM and IMS have in common is that they both use the lingua franca of ICT, XML. Does that help? Not really... Lots of misunderstandings:

XML stands for "please use a formal structure, so we can map our structures on each other"
That mapping is the problem: what does the field first name of person mean in your culture? (recently a topic in the Moodle forums..)

Or: "Just speaking the language English does not make me automatically a great English poet"

 (Replace English with XML..) We want to write educational poems, we need to figure out how that can be done, yes just Moodle a little and then EUREKA and Ray comes up with a new Modul smile  Who is next?

The good news is that structure helps a little, any structure.. And using XML will make the chance bigger that one day..

  • I love the XML of glossary: Moodle sets the standard for student made glossary exchange in educational settings?
  • I have my doubts about GIFT. yes it is nice but is inventing the QTI wheel again... (when it is finished and can handle all the situations it will be complex as QTI..)
  • I love the metaphor of the sections in Moodle where you organise thematic activities together. I do not know any t eLerning product that does that with so much elegance: I am proud that I choose Moodle for our schools.
  • The new idea of subsections brings Moodle close to the IMS Content Packaging , a new breakthrough ?
  • And I dream of Bookmarks
  • and a split screen with two moduls side by side, of course grijns

In reply to Ger Tielemans

Re: To "IMS" or not to "IMS" - What is the question??

by Howard Miller -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
Yes,

but this is a technical issue... I am with Bruno when we hear the response...

"Well I'll just install WebCT (insert favorite commercial offering), it's standards compliant so we can easily change to something else if we need to".

This kind of thing is used every day to justify spending huge sums of money on commercial apps. when its pretty much not true.

I entirely agree that the "industry" is not even in the ballpark for usable interoperability. However, we *should* make the effort to make materials exportable in a format that (even if it takes some effort) people will be able to make some use of outside of Moodle. I would think that at the moment this would be XML. Maybe we should do a proper job of that and not worry too much about shaky standards like IMS.

Complicated, isn't it? smile
In reply to W Page

Re: To "IMS" or not to "IMS" - What is the question??

by Dale Jones -
FWIW, here's a useful tool for building learning objects and packaging up SCORM and IMS compliant packages.  Now, I'm not saying that's a Good Thing or that it should be entirely necessary, but it does allow some kind of transferability between systems.  The site also contains a number of links to Learning Design sites and some definitions of standards.  It's Open Source too (which is a Good Thing).
I used this Reload tool once to see if I could package up a moodle course to transfer to another system (DigitalBrain).  At the time, I was thwarted at the last hurdle because DB wouldn't allow me to unzip or install the package.  I think they do now but I lost interest (in them).  For my purposes and perception of what a VLE ought to offer, Moodle allows  a far greater range of activities to support a number of learning styles (and therefore to support learners) than anything else I've seen.  Now, my experience of these things is limited and I know the following is an over-simplification and will probably change as my experience  grows, but if I want to build a linear Learning Object I'll choose the path of least bother and use Powerpoint (or the Open Office equivalent), embed any Flash or other resources and zip it up.  However, if I want to build a content-rich, experience-rich learning environment I'll use Moodle and those who can't see the light and want to use my resources in another VLE can remove their blinkers and use Moodle or be damned, or put up with a bastardised zipfile of a moodle course and that they have to sort out the manifest themselves.
I might get more warmhearted towards Standards Compliancy if/when it sorts itself out and proves itself to be worthwhile to me.  Until then, I'll carry on moodling.

Dale
</2d's worth>