Will TinyMCE will be supported in the future moodle versions or will moodle change to the atto-editor? Or will both editors will be supported?
Will TinyMCE will be supported in the future moodle versions or will moodle change to the atto-editor? Or will both editors will be supported?
I second this question -- I'm trying to get on the Atto train, but it makes working in code very difficult.
The amount of class, id, span, and style tags that Atto injects is ridiculous. I'm using Moodle 3.1.6 and can't edit a single page in HTML mode without having to delete all the extra code, which just re-introduces itself anyway the next time I save. Any maybe it's another plug in causing this and not Atto, but I'm at the point where I'm trying to decide which text editor I'll force as the default moving forward when I upgrade this summer.
Curious where TinyMCE stands on the Moodle road map.
The atto page has some dead links https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Atto, I have been unable to find any real documentation.
Ryan has responded here: https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-58084 saying "As Mark mentioned above, if you're using the WYSIWYG view on the atto editor the code behind the scenes will attempt to sanitise a few things in the content that you're pasting in an attempt to keep consistent styling (depending on where you are copying the content from, it can come along with a lot more information than what you see in the page)" There seems to be a clear indication that Atto is 'not supposed' to do all the things we might like. The 'sanitising' seems to have unexpected consequences.
Other comments from the tracker:
- https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-59998 Multiple span tags injected"
- https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-59533 "Class names strippe dout on paste"
- https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-57954 "Spurious tags"
- https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-57374 Says 'fixed' but there are some cases where I think it is not.
I'm not quite up to the level of coding to even clearly identify the problems and the source of the problems. I just know Atto is not up to what I need at the moment.
The issue of how to deal with WYSIWYG is old. I'd really like to see some more robust workflow possible in Atto, biut at present I think there are other priorities in the minds of the coders.
For the record: Neither TinyMCE nor Atto are _text_ editors, they are _WYSIWYG HTML_ editors!
I made the decision a long time ago to move with Atto. Maybe we need to ditch Tiny MCE to enable focus on just one editor. I know there will be problems with this.
I've had another glitch in Atto recently, and another yet look at the tracker. There are a lot of items that have been closed quickly or closed and then re-opened. There is a little bit of the "No it's a feature not a bug" conversation. It is very very complex, as a quick survey of some of the longer threads in this list show.
- Closed bug, but the issue still exists. https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-50517
- Unresolved, still not finished. https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-49304
- A little angst over fonts and colours. https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-48121
- Paste images. Unresolved. https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-47750
- Editor manager. Don't even understand this. https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-45787
- Error with block quotes. In progress since July 2016. https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-48905
- Develop in progress since 2016 https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-44239
Glass half empty view: At present we are doomed. The combination of buggy factors here make it hard to get a robust workflow (est if you have images, a few tricky combinations of activities and RTL)
Glass half full: it's OK, just stick to very simple stuff, and especially avoid deleting and pasting and some RTL.
Seems ages since we had out flurry of conversation here: https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-43841: "Add Atto back to core, and add the required features to make it the best thing ever"
Visvanath, Point taken, it is a WYSIWYG, unless it is in HTML view.
The answer is currently:
Atto is supported and will receive new features and bug fixes over time.
TinyMCE is not supported, it's not even updated to the latest upstream version, it only exists in Moodle core still because there are enough people who want us to keep it.
Yes there are some open bugs in Atto. There are open bugs in lots of places in Moodle but the fact is that we have a small core dev team and our focus has been directed to other things for a while. We recently restructured our teams, and now there are some devs assigned to it, so some active bugs will hopefully get more attention in the future (they still have lots of other components to work with too).
Generally though - Atto is a great HTML editor that supports many advanced Moodle features that TinyMCE can't hope to replicate properly because it is not written with knowledge about the platform it is embedded into (proper auto-save support etc).
Finally - although I always hate to name names in public discussions but in this case I think it's warranted. Derek has very loudly stated his strong opinions on every single editor thread since Atto was released and has IMO created a skewed view of the state of editors in Moodle. I respect his opinion, but it does not reflect my own and I don't have the time or patience to repeatedly discuss the same things over and over. I'm only providing this as context for anyone reading through all these discussions.
as a first step in that direction, could we bring https://apidocs.moodle.org/js/master/classes/M.editor_atto.Editor.html and https://apidocs.moodle.org/js/master/classes/M.editor_atto.EditorPlugin.html et al back?
As far as I know, they now only exist in Google Cache / Internet Archive.
Damyon, thanks for your post.
You might recall that I had my reservations about Atto for a while. However, I switched to making Atto my default around 8 months ago and have been very happy. I am one who likes that it seems to work better than TinyMCE on smartphones. Yep, still a few improvements needed and bugs fixed, but I would have to agree with your opinion.
Just so that you know, I think the only place where I am struggling with Atto is when I want to apply a "class" to an embedded picture and make it be "responsive." I find myself having to switch to TinyMCE to do this. Maybe I am missing a technique or something with Atto.
This discussion popped up in my searches for TinyMCE.
I am the CEO at Ephox, the makers of TinyMCE and just wanted to offer up help. We could discuss how we could bring the integration up to date? TinyMCE is getting a lot of development and updating and I think it could be of benefit to the Moodle community to keep it as an option.
I really wish TinyMCE would be updated on a regular basis - it is my first choice for an editor in Moodle.
Damien, I kind of guessed there were other HQ priorities when it came to the Atto Tracker items, but I was still hopeful other developers may be able to attend to some of the little quirks that were popping up. But fundamentally you are right, it is an HQ matter. I did not know about the restructured teams, but maybe this will lead to some progress.
Maybe an Atto EPIC issue in the tracker may help with a little more visibility of the progress, help stop duplicate entries and save time in figuring out if the thing that is happening has happened to someone else? It is true that a lot of people are fine with Atto, but for me it is still a fact: I can't find a workflow for course design, deployment etc that is both easy to use and robust. In other words, working with many grass roots tutors is a little fraught.
I didn't know I had created a 'skewed view' of the state of editors in Moodle. As for your other comment "I don't have the time or patience to repeatedly discuss the same things over and over" the first place I always check is the docs. eg the page https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Atto that Mary referred to is pretty minimal, with some dead links, and even with a lot of reading I am not sure enough of the message to edit this myself. I probably have missed or misunderstood a post you have made somewhere to do with Atto; a clear message somewhere in Moodle.org or docs on some of the priorities of Moodle could help, but I know this is hard. I will not post again; maybe in time things will get unskewed.
My glass half full vs half empty thoughts still remain. You may be happy with Atto, but some folk I work with find some things difficult.
John: it seems like you have a really clear message from Damien: TinyMCE/Moodle support is no more.
Your comment: "The amount of class, id, span, and style tags that Atto injects is ridiculous. I'm using Moodle 3.1.6 and can't edit a single page in HTML mode without having to delete all the extra code, which just re-introduces itself anyway the next time I save." . . . . I di wonder if anyone else would respond to this. I just live with this, but I also have problems with Atto stipping out the same things. :-|
Robert: thank-you for the post. I use a few sites where the editor is probably Tiny MCE and you have done well with the new version. Atto vs TinyMCE: I'm not sure if this ship has sailed or not!! Some of the discussion in docs.moodle on the reasons for the transition several years ago has gone. Damien's notes from one small meeting are here: https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Developer_meeting_January_2014#Editor_replacement_.28Damyon_Wiese.29 and another link: https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Editor_2.7
Damien is clear in the post above: "Atto is a great HTML editor that supports many advanced Moodle features that TinyMCE can't hope to replicate properly because it is not written with knowledge about the platform it is embedded into (proper auto-save support etc)"
But as Mary said there is this: https://docs.moodle.org/34/en/TinyMCE_editor where you could start.
Visvanath: Not sure about your question about "Loading issue in moodle for our site" https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=363075&parent=1464658 it may be an unavoidable feature.
Edit: Gee, this is a much longer post than I realised!!
Merry Christmas everybody, and may things go well in the new year for you all.
Quick clarification - ( my ears were burning ) I referred to the USER docs of the Atto editor, Derek; it was you who refererred to the dev docs. Of course if anyone has extra information to add to either, they are most welcome.
There are also issue with the Docs as well. There is no discussion page for Atto's User documentation. I would certainly like to make comments here, and have been waiting to do so for a while now; waited patiently for one to be created, if I may add.
The fact is that Atto is just not up to scratch as a featured editor and unless that changes, then it will be less than useful. Dropping support for TinyMCE was inevitable, but the lack of development for Atto, well, development I have not seen anyway, is not helpful. I have had three students this year with Irlen's Syndrome, so I have reverted to using Word based PDFs to get the right background colours for documentation in my courses. And why are colours calculated using RGB? Surely using #hex would be a more reliable and easier method?
When looking at the Atto documentation there is some drivel that "...user specified colours may conflict visually with the site colour... (T)he first is just a visually unappealing combination of colours, the second is a combination of colours that may produce text that is hard to read for some people." It is for the second reason I want to use particular coloured backgrounds, to make it easier for students to read. The aesthetics of the site don't matter a damn if they disadvantage even a small minority of students. No, to me, Atto right now looks more like an expression of ego than a serious attempt at developing an editor that "takes full advantage of Moodle's advanced capabilities."
Under these circumstances, I don't think it is up to Moodle Devs to dictate available choices and dropping support for TinyMCE is not necessarily a good direction right now.
Colin: There is no discussion page for Atto's User documentation.
If you click on the comments page, doesn't it let you create the page?
Hi Mary, I expected the page to either be there or autocreate, but it never has. No idea why... Technology hates me though - with a passion... My bet will be that if you do it and it will work.
While I'm certainly not Mary (by any stretch of the imagination ), I'd say you won your bet: I did it and it worked.
So go an fill that page with you comments!
Thanks Iñaki, appreciate it.
Feliz Navidad, amigo!
TinyMCE will likely remain in use for the foreseeable future without being updated in the core. An indication of the third-party demand (which Damyon mentions) can be seen in the plugin database statistics. A good comparison is given by the usage data for the WIRIS editor plugins. WIRIS is a third-party commercial vendor. Continued use of its plugins requires a subscription so sites with them installed have an investment in these plugins. WIRIS actively supports both TinyMCE and Atto. Sites may install either plugin or both, but it is up to the site administrators to decide and update based upon the needs of their users.
Currently the total sites with TinyMCE support exceeds the number of sites supporting Atto, 2065 to 1735. However if one looks at the data for sites with security supported versions of Moodle (3.3 and 3.4, i.e. actively updated sites), then Atto appears to have a slight edge, 702 to 693. It is unclear from the comparison how many sites have one or both installed.
A different picture is seen comparing Mathslate plugins. Installation of the TinyMCE plugin is required to use the Atto plugin, so that in this case TinyMCE numbers include sites also or only using the Atto plugin. Mathslate is non-commercial, updates are infrequent, the sample size is smaller and there is not necessarily a financial barrier to installation. The current numbers are TinyMCE 654 to Atto 284 for total installations and TinyMCE 277 to Atto 145 for more recent Moodle versions. In the this case the difference of the numbers indicates sites only using TinyMCE version. Most of the older sites are using the TinyMCE version exclusively. A much larger proportion of the newer sites are also or exclusively using the Atto version.
Note that TinyMCE lacks an integrated mathematics editor, but Atto has a usable formula editor as a standard feature. There may be a bias to install WIRIS or Mathslate with TinyMCE.
From these numbers it would appear that TinyMCE has a very large, but slowly sinking usage base. From which it can be assumed that demand for both editors will be present for a considerable time.
DISCLAIMER This is not an advertisement, endorsement or solicitation for usage of WIRIS. I have no relationship with the company, nor do I use or have real familiarity with the product. I do maintain the competing Mathslate plugins, but do not have a substantial financial interest in their usage.
I do not know. That may be depend on what is offered. From the way it looks to me, the new versions of TinyMCE offers some nifty features as premium addons. So it may make some sense for Atto to be supported in the core, and for TinyMCE4 available as a third-party plugin that requires a subscription. If this is the case, then the integration would need to be handled by Ephox or a partner, rather than by Moodle HQ.
Do you believe that clients that would pay for some of the additional features that Ephox offers either through institutional subscription or through additional hosting fees?
We would be open to supporting TinyMCE as a third-party add-on... particularly as we ramp up the features available in TinyMCE Cloud over the next 1-2 years.
Of course, we aren't Moodle experts so would need some help in doing this.
Doing this work needs to be balanced against other priorities, so any indications that it would be something your institution would consider - please ping me or contact our team via https://www.tinymce.com
Did somebody tried to upgrade the tinymce editor just replacing the "inymce\tiny_mce\3.5.11" folder by a "4.7.13" version and doing some easy things like :
1/ extract standard TinyMCE package into lib/editor/tinymce/tiny_mce/x.y.z/
2/ bump up editor version in lib.php to match the directory name x.y.z
3/ bump up main version.php
4/ update ./thirdpartylibs.xml
5/ execute cli/update_lang_files.php and review changes in lang/en/editor_tinymce.php
I know I am very late in this discussion. But would like to know that whether in Moodle 3.5 is it possible to upgrade tinyMCE 3.5.11 to 4.9.0. I tried as per the steps mentioned by David, somehow the upgradation completed successfully but unable to see the Editor instead of plain teaxarea.
Please let me know since I have to complete one priority work for my project. If the part is not possible I will think about other alternative.
Thanks in advance.