Should the labelling of mutliple choice choices be localised?

Should the labelling of mutliple choice choices be localised?

by Tim Hunt -
Number of replies: 20
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At the moment, for muliple choice questions, there are various choices for 'Number the choices?'
  • a, b, c, d...
  • A, B, C, D...
  • 1, 2, 3, 4...
  • i, ii, iii, iv, ...
  • I, II, III, IV, ...
  • none

And, at the moment, a, b, c means exactly that: use English letters. If you are in, say Hebrew (as in MDL-49089) or Thai (MDL-25877) then that is not necessarily what you want.

The suggestion in MDL-49089 is to try to change this to use the appropriate national alphabet, but I am pretty sure that won't work. For example in the Albainian language pack, the alphabet goes: "A,​B,​C,​Ç,​D,​E,​Ë,​F,​G,​GJ,​H,​I,​J,​K,​L,​LL,​M,​N,​O,​P,​Q,​R,​RR,​S,​SH,​T,​TH,​U,​V,​X,​XH,​Y,​Z,​ZH" and I am pretty sure you would not want to call the 4th choice ​Ç. (That was just the first lang alphabetically to have a problem. Many European langauges are affected.)

The question is, is it work the effort to find a proper way to implement this? (It would probably require a new string in langconfig.)

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In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Should the labelling of mutliple choice choices be localised?

by Jean-Michel Védrine -

The first question is (and I have no answer) how do people number their list items around the world ? I have tried to search but surely I didn't had the right keywords as I have found nothing

Also if you look to all the usages of the $string('alphabet', 'langconfig') language string in the code you will see that in all places it is used for alphabetic ordering (see for instance glossary) so this question me: shouldn't there be 2 different strings, one for alphabetic ordering used for instance when a list of all first letters for fistname and lastname is displayed and one other for list items ? Unless of course if in all countries the exact same characters are used for both usages (I would be very surprised if this is true !)

Also I wonder if all translations are correct for instance in some languages some accented characters are included in $string('alphabet', 'langconfig') but not in other languages (for instance in the French language pack none of our accented characters is included in $string('alphabet', 'langconfig') and that is right because we don't take them into account both for alphabetical ordering and for alphabetical lists). That seems strange, but maybe this is just the reflect of different habits in different countries.

In reply to Jean-Michel Védrine

Re: Should the labelling of mutliple choice choices be localised?

by Jean-Michel Védrine -

It would be interesting to look at how the problem is solved in word processors (libre office).

In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Should the labelling of mutliple choice choices be localised?

by Dominique Bauer -
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The first example below, a Russian pdf document, uses local labels.

All other examples, from Microsoft and Google, use only  "a,b,A,B,1,2,i,ii"  in various languages.


Aeroflot - Russian - pdf document

The second list item label "(6)" is the russian lower case "b".


Microsoft - Hebrew


Microsoft - Greek



Microsoft - Arabic


Microsoft - Chinese


Google Docs - Russian


Google - Japanese


Google - Chinese

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In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Should the labelling of mutliple choice choices be localised?

by Dominique Bauer -
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Wikipedia - Bengali

The numbered list labels of the references, at the lower left hand side of the photograph, are local "1,2,3,4" in Bengali.


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In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Should the labelling of mutliple choice choices be localised?

by Shamim Rezaie -
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Hi Tim,

As the Persian lang pack maintainer, I had asked that question from myself before.

What I have done for our local installations is to do some minor modifications and introducing these for lang strings to qtype_multichoice.php:

$string['answernumbering123'] = '1., 2., 3., ...';
$string['answernumberingabc'] = 'a., b., c., ...';
$string['answernumberingABCD'] = 'A., B., C., ...';
$string['answernumberingiii'] = 'i., ii., iii., ...';
$string['answernumberingIIII'] = 'I., II., III., ...'; $string['numberingstyleabc'] = 'a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,m,n,o,p,q,r,s,t,u,v,w,x,y,z'; $string['numberingstyleabc_caps'] = 'A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L,M,N,O,P,Q,R,S,T,U,V,W,X,Y,Z';


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In reply to Shamim Rezaie

Re: Should the labelling of mutliple choice choices be localised?

by dawn alderson -

Tim,

when you say this is already in place:

At the moment, for muliple choice questions, there are various choices for 'Number the choices?'

  • a, b, c, d...
  • A, B, C, D...
  • 1, 2, 3, 4...
  • i, ii, iii, iv, ...
  • I, II, III, IV, ...
  • none

My feeling is why not keep with what you have and build on that...which I think is what Shamim is suggesting....my reason=I always wonder about the breadth of language packs...I mean in terms of regional usage.....So, we have Bengali there...but in Bengal....there are many languages used, you know Sylheti, Hindi and so on.....I often think.....something generic that can be tweaked for context, is a much better approach than aiming for something specialist and forking off that...if that makes sense.

D  

In reply to dawn alderson

Re: Should the labelling of mutliple choice choices be localised?

by Ray Morris -

The principle of least surprise suggests that web pages should act the way that the user is accustomed to web pages acting. The browser knows how to label ordered lists with appropriate letters when the style is set to lower-alpha or upper-alpha

. I would lean toward letting the browser do its thing.
In reply to Ray Morris

Re: Should the labelling of mutliple choice choices be localised?

by Tim Hunt -
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If you can work out the CSS to let 'the browser do its thing' while having the radio buttons in the right place, then I will consider it.

In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Should the labelling of mutliple choice choices be localised?

by Dominique Bauer -
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I doubt that browsers provide numbered list labels, in any language, other than the standard Arabic numerals and Roman letters and numerals. Please correct me if I am wrong and, if possible, give an example.

"User defined labels” would give the teachers a very flexible numbering system,

  • for using numbers or letters in any desired language, such as the ABCD letters in Hebrew (MDL-49089),

  • for using any kind of format, e.g.
    • [α, β, γ, δ...] Greek letters, even if the browser is not set up in Greek
    • [(a), (b), (c), (d)...] parentheses
    • [unos, dos, tres, cuatro...] spelled out
    • [1, 10, 11, 100...] binary
    • [smile , big grin , wink , thoughtful ...] icons
    • [QZN-T.01, QZN-T.02, QZN-T.03, QZN-T.04...] some specialized meaning
    • etc.

It would not take the teacher much effort to enter a string of "User defined labels”, for example [α, β, γ, δ, ε, ζ, η θ, ι, κ, λ, μ, ν, ξ, ο, π, ρ, σ, τ, υ, φ, χ, ψ, ω], and he would be sure to get exactly what he wants.

The only problem I see is that it would probably not be much of a challenge for a programmer to implement this in the Mutliple choice question parameters smile , although I realize that programming is seldom simple and straightforward.

In reply to Dominique Bauer

Re: Should the labelling of mutliple choice choices be localised?

by Tim Hunt -
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If you want that much complexity, just turn off the automatic numbering, and number the choices manually ...

Oh!

No, I see. If the choices are being randomly shuffled, that won't work. Doh!

But, cluttering up the UI with 100s of stupid options does not make a good, usable system. Please can we focus on actual needs, like the Hebrew numbering thing.

In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Should the labelling of mutliple choice choices be localised?

by Dominique Bauer -
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Hi Tim,

I did forget to thank you for telling me that my suggestion would just contribute "cluttering up the UI with 100s of stupid options".

I went somewhat at length to try and show that Microsoft and Google are not localizing labels, that there seems to be a trend on the Internet to not do it, but that there are also cases where it is done. I came up with a suggestion of creating a user-defined string, although not as good as Douglas's answer, which shows that it can be done in the most general manner and that the trend could be reversed. Yet, my suggestion was a simple workaround, in an effort to propose at least a temporarily solution.

Well, thank you very much for your encouragement, especially for the heartwarming word "stupid".



In reply to Ray Morris

Re: Should the labelling of mutliple choice choices be localised?

by Shamim Rezaie -
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The browser knows how to label ordered lists with appropriate letters

No it doesn't. At least not true for Persian.

In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Should the labelling of mutliple choice choices be localised?

by Dominique Bauer -
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  • Keep as default only the existing labels, which seem to be used almost exclusively worldwide especially in the computer environment, for example by Microsoft and Google:
    • a, b, c, d... Roman or Latin* lower case letters
    • A, B, C, D...Roman or Latin* upper case letters
    • 1, 2, 3, 4...Indo-Arabic numerals 
    • i, ii, iii, iv, ...Roman lower case numerals
    • I, II, III, IV, ...Roman upper case numerals
    • none
  • Add to the list of choices for "Number the choices?":
    • user defined labels: [α, β, γ...]

*Note smile

a, b, c means exactly that: use "English" letters

The French alphabet is based on the 26 letters of the modern "Latin" alphabet, uppercase and lowercase (a-z, A-Z), with five diacritics (à, À, â, Â, ç, Ç, é, É, è, È, ê, Ê, ë, Ë, î, Î, ï, Ï, ô, Ô, ù, Ù, û, Û, ü, Ü, ÿ, Ÿ) and two orthographic ligatures (æ, Æ, œ, Œ).

The English alphabet also uses the "Latin" alphabet and is considered to consist of only the 26 letters a-z, A-Z.

In reply to Dominique Bauer

Re: Should the labelling of mutliple choice choices be localised?

by dawn alderson -

Hi,

putting it another way then.  Whatever is thought to be included across the board, there will always be omissions with this....

1. meeting need globally?

2. all needs met globally?

If not number 2, then a generic approach is best, in my view, to avoid a token gesture.

honestly, I don't think all needs can be met, unless a generic approach is adopted. Could be wrong.

D

   

In reply to Dominique Bauer

Re: Should the labelling of mutliple choice choices be localised?

by Jean-Michel Védrine -

Dominique, it is true that

The French alphabet is based on the 26 letters of the modern "Latin" alphabet, uppercase and lowercase (a-z, A-Z), with five diacritics (à, À, â, Â, ç, Ç, é, É, è, È, ê, Ê, ë, Ë, î, Î, ï, Ï, ô, Ô, ù, Ù, û, Û, ü, Ü, ÿ, Ÿ) and two orthographic ligatures (æ, Æ, œ, Œ).

But nobody here in France would ever consider using diacritics or ligatures for numbering!

This is why the French language pack define $string['alphabet'] = 'A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L,M,N,O,P,Q,R,S,T,U,V,W,X,Y,Z';

This show the difference between the "alphabet" (set of characters used to write a language) and the set of characters used for numbering.

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In reply to Jean-Michel Védrine

Re: Should the labelling of mutliple choice choices be localised?

by Dominique Bauer -
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Jean-Michel,

I am sorry if I was not clear.

Of course, I was not suggesting that all 42 letters (basic a-z roman letters, plus diacritics and ligatures) should be used or have ever been used for French.

In the my "*Note wink ", I was making a minor point about Tim's expression "English letters" (his first message of the post). The 26 a-z letters are indeed the English letters, but they are also the basic letters for other Latin based languages such as French, Italian, Spanish, etc.

In short, ordered list labels that use the 26 modern roman letters should be, in my opinion, refered to as "Roman letters". But if Tim prefers "English letters", it will do just as well and I think that everybody will understand anyways.

In reply to Dominique Bauer

Re: Should the labelling of mutliple choice choices be localised?

by Tim Hunt -
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Don't assume I prefer that. I probably just typed it without thinking.

In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Should the labelling of mutliple choice choices be localised?

by Douglas Broad -

In general, Moodle should support, at minimum, CSS3 numbering options as demonstrated here:

http://www.w3schools.com/cssref/pr_list-style-type.asp

and specified here (where you can compare browser support).

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/list-style-type

It shouldn't be that difficult to add additional languages to the CSS strategy using the <custom-ident> property and the @counter-style specification. Whether that should be at the school level or in the base, or at the course level might be a point of discussion.

Where the localization should happen might be relevant as well.  Ideally, it would be nice to have HTML pages in one language be automatically converted by the user browser localization.   Moodle needs to support the browser's capacity in the least obtrusive way possible.

From the perspective of the questioner, it would make sense to continue to provide the current choices and to support translation of  those to the course language.

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In reply to Douglas Broad

Re: Should the labelling of mutliple choice choices be localised?

by Dominique Bauer -
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There is some good stuff in those links. Douglas, thank you, I learned something today. I agree with Dawn that uniformity is desirable but so is some flexibility, especially in an academic environnement. I think that Douglas' comment is the way to go.

My suggestion was to use a custom user defined string, something like:


but it may look a bit amateurish and is certainly not as good as Douglas' solution.

In reply to Douglas Broad

Re: Should the labelling of mutliple choice choices be localised?

by Dominique Bauer -
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Quick fix for users
Seems that it may or may not work depending on system (why?) Seems to work on my system.

<ol style="list-style-type: hebrew;">
<li>First list item</li>
<li>Second list item</li>
<li>Third list item</li>
<li>Fourth list item</li>
<li>etc.</li>
</ol>

<ol style="list-style-type: persian;">
<li>First list item</li>
<li>Second list item</li>
<li>Third list item</li>
<li>Fourth list item</li>
<li>etc.</li>
</ol>

<ol style="list-style-type: cjk-ideographic;">

etc.