I love that big arrow when you drag and drop It makes me smile every time I see it. But I'm not sure whether I dreamed it or not that it might be replaced or altered - I didn't know what to search for in the tracker and just wondered if anyone could tell me - the reason being; I am planning to update some screenshots and don't want to end up updating them all today only to find the Big Arrow has gone tomorrow!
Hi Mary, unlike you that big blue arrow doesn't make me smile. I don't like it because it is "jumping" up and down and makes me nervous.
For a discussion about this and a solution to remove it provided by Nicolas see this discussion.
Anyway I think a bug report ought to be posted to request that that blue arrow be removed before 2.3 is released - or at least made stationary. Can you do it, please?
Joseph
It has been changed to an animated GIF that plays through the animation once (two bounces) then stops: http://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-33005
Ah great - thanks both. I knew you didn't like it Joseph as I recall you were part of the conversation discussing it. And thanks for the tracker link Davo - I guess searching for Big Bouncing Arrow would never have got me to it
@Davo,
I guess I'll survive the "2 bounces only" feature.
Joseph
It's kinda like the Holy Hand Grenade.
@Simon, yes, in a way, except that the Moodle File Picker Big Arrow bounces twice, whilst for the Holy Hand Grenade you have to count up to three, as per the instructions:
"First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. (etc.)
From the Wikipedia article, Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch (Usage instructions section).
Joseph
@Joseph - I'm sure a third bounce could be arranged ... (but five is right out!)
I will happily lob grenades, holy or otherwise, at anything that bounces on Moodle. Could we maybe have a little Survey to see if only Joseph and I really dislike this?
Grouchy Glenys
I have a bit more of a laid back attitude these days to Moodle development.
I thought when I saw the bouncy arrow for the first time someone was playing as joke on me. Then I realised it was for real. But it (IMO) was so bad I just assumed someone would use it for a few minutes and say "Naa". Dan was very eloquent and clear recently in his reply to the post suggesting Moodle do some user testing to say "We do". I'm still hopeful this arrow will if it doesn't go away, at least it behave more discretly, more like the Chrome arrow.
My -1 for the boungin arrow.
-Derek
That's an improvement, but it's still a bit poor from a usability perspective; it attracts the eye whenever you go to a page that has a file picker, whereas generally the first thing you want to do is type in the name of the activity you're creating, or whatever it is, up near the top of the screen.
IMO the big bouncing arrow should start off standing stock still and should only bounce while you are holding a dragged file over the area.
(I'd much rather have a little bit of bad-usability annoyance in terms of a bouncing arrow than not be able to drag/drop files though... sadly, I don't think the OU will get 2.3 on our live systems until December.)
Note: As this is now just an image file, for sites which are concerned about the minor usability problem, it will be easy to replace it with a non-bouncing arrow in the local theme. I assume we'll do that here.
--sam
sam " [the bouncing arrow] is still a bit poor from a usability perspective; it attracts the eye whenever you go to a page that has a file picker, whereas generally the first thing you want to do is type in the name of the activity you're creating, or whatever it is, up near the top of the screen."
Agree 100%.
Joseph
I beg to disagree. That "bouncing big blue arrow" is a critical usability issue. Anything that moves on a screen attracts attention and distracts attention from the rest of the screen.
The Animated progress bar you are pointing to in your microsoft link is something completely different. It is useful because whilst the operation at hand is being processed the end-user cannot do anything else than wait. And it has a real informative value. In my opinion the bouncing big blue arrow is "bells and whistles", something that maybe its author deemed "pretty" and "interesting", but again distracts attention from the rest of the screen, as pointed by sam.
Joseph
I agree it's annoying, but I'd say that a key use of that arrow is to get people to notice that something simple can now be done that was not possible before. Movement is an important hint that you can now do a movement action yourself (dragging and dropping), whereas it was previously a lot of annoying clicks.
One of the biggest support requests I found from beginner Moodle users was how to upload files through the complex interface and I remember (I think) that the 2.0 file system had to be altered to include a legacy mode for people who found the new one too complex, so there are legacy usability issues still lodged in users brains, which need dislodging.
I'd say that the minor annoyance of having a big bouncing idiot-arrow is well worth the trade off of making the filepicker idiot-proof and re-educating people about how to use it. It can always be switched for a non-bouncing one as others have pointed out, once the users have got the message.
Yes, and it's pretty easy to hack your CSS file to get rid of it.
The problem with usability is that it is slightly different for every user (which is why nothing can every completely satisfy usability criteria). For example the 1.9 (we are just about to upgrade from 1.9) add resource makes you name your resource first, or gives you a big warning (and a box to click off). This is bad usability for me as I am often creating file resources for lecturers and I do not know what to call the resource until I have found the file and copied its filename which I then paste into the name box. For me, in this situation, being forced to put the name in before picking the file is bad usability. Of course, this is not the case for all situations and I may be in the minority in the way I work but that's my point. Making assumptions over how someone will be filling in a form doesn't help.
I do agree however with the idea that arrow would be better bouncing when you start the dragging action - as that is when people really need to know where to drop it.
Just had a first glance at the bouncing arrow. IMO the bouncing is completely unnecessary. The size of the whole thing is yet another issue. min-height of 140px seems to assume at most one or two file managers per form. A similar assumption with respect to the implementation of the html editor has proved to be a problem in forms such as question editing.
Interesting... I love it because to me it adds a sense of humour to an otherwise routine task. I am a fan of Big Arrows, putting them in screenshots everywhere.
Mary, this is an application, a very complex compromise between developers mainly, and the rest of the community at large. We don't generally have a sense of humour we are aware of. You go through the forums and it is dowdy discussion after dowdy discussion, the idea of someone interjecting with a light hearted, or even heavy handed, comment is frowned upon as being "off-topic" or irrellavent, (and God help anyone who misspells anything in future, I think Tim might be aiming at becoming Spell Miester). If injecting humour anywhere here brings that kind of result, what do you think might happen to anything whimsical in the product itself?
I agree, moving objects attract the eye, therefore distract from other shortcomings.
Like this add for TV
Having received Colin's post in an email with the video blanked out (not even indicated that it is present), I took Colin's quite serious text as a rebuke to my esteemed Ms. Mary.
Be warned, Mr. Fraser: When you cast irony and sarcasm into the MOOC pits of Using Moodle, ye may be misinterpreted.
Oh, and I've enjoyed following Joseph's grousing and Davo's concilatory comments, and all the rest of this thread.
My own take is that, as with anything novel, the developer feels it needs to be highlighted, but by the time it actually comes out (June when?), it doesn't really need all that much highlighting.
But, if there were a vote, I'd say "Until 2.6 comes out, keep it. After that, not needed."
And, what isn't being said often enough is just how valuable this d'n'd is for teachers. It's a many click saver.
Hi.
Just my 2 cents here. in January 2012, I set out to write code that would allow a user to affix a text mood next to their avatar in the Online Users Block. I was also curious to know how students would react to animated gifs next to their avatars. So I coded that option to allow students to either pick an animated gif from a picklist, or to paste in a URL of external animated gif. Here is that list. I also added some code to make each icon wiggle on a mouseover - just for fun.
Well, five months later, I can safely say that in a class of 10 students, more than half of them have set an animated image next to their avatar. I think the students enjoy seeing others see their animated gif on a serious learning site. After all we are talking about a Facebook generation of kids..
Video captured in January 2012.
Frankie Kam
Visvanath
They're college aged students. 18 years to 22 years old.
> And could you please explain me why their avatars set standards in teaching?
>
Thanks for asking, but I'm afraid I don't understand the question...do you mean to ask "what has animated gifs got to do with learning?" ?
The main benefit I find is when I introduce them to Moodle, it makes the session more fun. The first thing that they do is to create an account, and showing them how to add a profile picture and to set an animated "co-avatar". This helps to make the session light and fun. Then I go into the more serious activities like forums, Moodle books and assignment uploads. SO it makes the introduction to Moodle a little lighter and easier for the college students. I just wanted to bring in a bit more "personalised fun factor" in the form of the animated co-avatars.
Regards
Frankie Kam
To take your point even further, Frankie, in my experience animated gifs at the point of success in fairly difficult (serious) activities also proves to be quite engaging. I have given exercise quizzes with complex problem solving (10 to 40 steps) that may take hours to solve. In the first year correctness was indicated the standard quiz way. In the second year I made it show the . In the third year I made it show gifs like
and 
. For some learners (myself included) solving the problem for making the dancing and winner dudes show up was no less important than the problem solving practice.
Hi Itamar, excellent, really! Btw: did you track/ observe any performance differences in the 3 settings?
I didn't measure the impact of the success indicator on performance. The observation is based on students references to the smiley and the animated gifs in forum posts and other exchanges. Errors in the solution were indicated by a red cross next to every erroneous line and error message in the bottom box. So the success indicator was not necessary for knowing that you got it right (when there were no more errors) and yet it seemed that the dancing (actually walking happily) and winner dudes added some psychological effect to the point of completion, a sort of human-like gesture of approval.
I can only reiterate Colin's callings, "moving objects attract the eye, therefore distract from other shortcomings." (Well, perhaps without the 'therefore' because it doesn't really follow) But I'm not so concerned with the moving Big Arrow as with the moving dragged and dropped files. The teachers' click saver can easily become the students' nightmare. I've seen too many teachers dumping in courses files over files and more files. It has always been easier than carefully constructing well structured content. And now it's going to be much easier.
Itamar - your argument seems to be that: some (many?) teachers use Moodle as a file dump and making sure that dumping files isn't too easy will encourage them to develop properly structured content instead.
I'd argue exactly the opposite - teachers who are determined to use Moodle as a file dump, will continue to do so, no matter how hard it is, or possibly just abandon using the 'awkward, difficult to use, rubbish web site that the college/school/university forces them to use with their classes'. On the other hand, making basic file operations quick and simple, frees up time so that the teacher could possibly explore some of the more advanced, interactive, features of Moodle. Many teachers still won't do this, but if they like the system (as it makes basic operations easy), then they are more likely to be motivated to try.
At the end of the day, it is training, encouragement and peer pressure that gets teachers to make interesting courses, not making basic operations in Moodle artificially awkward to use.
(I'll add to this, that I've got 5 years experience of using Moodle as a teacher, including running several training sessions with colleagues and experiencing a range of good / bad courses created. I'm not just a random developer guessing what teacher's might do.)
Nice one Davo.
Davo, of course many teachers here use Moodle as a dump, for good reason. At 5 core subjects and 220mins contact time per subject, the average teacher barely gets time to scratch let alone learn new tech. I often lament my colleagues inability to move forward, but I understand it. (This is not all my colleagues, just most of them.) All they do with Moodle is to use it as a dumpng ground if thet. I even had one school leader proudly tell me that her school does not use Moodle any more, they found an easier way to do it, just use a very expensive repository. They think that is a "good decision", a good use oftechnology, as all they are doing is dumping electronic worksheets there and getting kids to upload their responses to it. Unbelievable.
This line:
Itamar - your argument seems to be that: some (many?) teachers use Moodle as a file dump and making sure that dumping files isn't too easy will encourage them to develop properly structured content instead.
clearly demonstrates Itamar has not read it correctly. Your analysis is closer to the truth it seems, but almost as wide of the mark as Itamar. If it even remotely requires some thought, a lot of people will find an "easier" alternative.
BTW, the reason I was talking to that school leader - I was going to apply for a job as an E-learning leader at that school, but there was no point if they had already abandoned the one area they should be expanding their e-learning in. I would not be able to make them move, so yes, anything that will make the use of Moodle easier, I will gladly promote - which is why I am suggesting so many things need to be redesigned...
I think we are moving away from the Big Arrow and more into the principle of drag and drop. I have to agree with Davo re - if making the basic operations easier then teachers will be more likely to try out some of the other, more interactive ones. For various political (local govt) reasons, the education area where I am in the UK, covering around 1000 schools has had us stuck on Moodle 1.9.10 for 19 months now (since 27 October 2010) and I recently heard on the grapevine they plan to move us all over to Moodle 2 at Christmas, but there is some discussion over whether to use Moodle 2.2 (which they have done their pilot on and for which their trainers are organising training -nothing to do with me) or use Moodle 2.3. Personally I think if you have a somewhat reluctant staff who are being told they are moving up to a "new" version of Moodle, then anything that eases the move HAS to be a boon. Our staff use Moodle, some as a repository, others more interactively, and I was looking forward to using the advent of Moodle 2 to "relaunch" it in our school and point out some cool new features. Being able to show that Big Arrow and demo dragging and dropping I know for a fact would be a hit with our teachers, and my aim would then be to say - ok -so you can upload your worksheets in an instant - in all the time that will save you, let's see what else you can do that would engage your students.
I only hope we will actually get Moodle 2.3 in December
In my work with clients migrating to 2.x from 1.9.x the new drag and drop functionality has definitely prompted gasps of appreciation and excitement. This has been accompanied with equally excited discussions about other functionality they've just encountered in the session that's actually been there in 1.9...
My point being that this neat new capability is adding a further layer to a vast array of existing functionality that lays undiscovered in many institutions. Functionality and usability are important of course but the big advances come about in the development of people e.g. teachers, trainers rather than just the software itself.
Regarding the arrow:
Limiting the number of bounces is a good move IMO.
Generally though isn't this still indicating an "upload" action? I wold say that a downward pointing arrow implies "download" and that it's counter-intuitive currently for that reason.
Ray "Generally though isn't this still indicating an "upload" action? I would say that a downward pointing arrow implies "download" and that it's counter-intuitive currently for that reason."
Good point, Ray.
Yes it is a very good point although to be honest I had never considered it like that.To me, that arrow was saying to you "Over here! Drag your file over here and drop it where I'm pointing to!" The comedy series Monty Python used to have a great big pointing finger -and I think that's what it reminds me of (and why it makes me smile..)
But it is Drag and *Drop*. So, a downward arrow may be apt
Somewhat of a mixed metaphor. Drag and *Drop* File *Up*load
The downward-pointing arrow indicates where to drop the files, once a user has begun dragging files, but it does not indicate that files can be dragged in the first place. So its "drop" association is presented too early, possibly before the user has even thought about the "drag" part of the procedure. Probably a more apt animation would be a pointer dragging a file and stopping in the middle of the drop area.
As Colin mentioned, moving objects attract attention, which may be fine if a user's primary goal at the moment is to upload a file, but if uploading a file is a secondary task, but shares the screen with the primary task, then the animation deters the user from their primary task. For example, on this screen where I'm composing this forum message, my primary task is to write in the "Message" box, while I rarely attach files to my forum posts.
There wasn't an argument in my comment, Davo. Just a concern. I can add to this that I've got over 10 years of using LMS as a teacher/instructor, including running training sessions with colleagues etc. but such additions are rarely relevant.
The point of the concern is that beyond Moodle infrastructure, content management is still seriously lacking, arguably not because file uploading has been over-clicked. It should make an interesting topic for the 2013 Moodle conference to examin the impact of dnd file upload on Moodle courses.
Wow. I go to sleep, and you all double this thread's length.
I agree with Itamar that dnd ought to be an interesting topic in a conference. On a pure workload level, I see it as a huge improvement for my teachers of writing, who are always uploading critiques one file at a time, click by slow click.
2.3 promises a number of advantages that 2.+ < 2.3 doesn't offer and in fact makes worse for teachers. We're hoping to put 2.3 into place as soon as it goes stable.
But as for digitized versions of drill and kill worksheets, that's not the technology. That's a teacher mindset in need of change.
Ben,
"But as for digitized versions of drill and kill worksheets, that's not the technology. That's a teacher mindset in need of change."
Is an apt descriptor, and this is where Moodle developers need to be a little more mindful of how the product is going to be used. In the main, and I suggest it is true of educators everywhere, they are stuck in a time warp that does not easily admit change. Martin's observation at MoodleMootAU 2011, "How many teachers does it take to change a lightbulb?" Answer: "Change?", is all too sadly true. So to encourage change, and promote Moodle, there needs be an element of whimsy in the product and everything needs to be simplified as much as possible. Reducing clicks is an advantage, not a drawback. The perception of potential users is "If it is difficut to do the basic things, how hard is it going to be to do the more advanced things?", which is why, I think, the school I mentioned above has taken the action it has. This is the trap developers need to avoid and in simplifying it, make it more user friendly, more accessible. I also suggest that developers need to make sure that the "black box" principle is rigidly adhered to. One simple action that completes a complex task is an ideal that should be targeted in an application like Moodle. Users certainly do not care how it is done, as long as it works. The GBA and d'nd' can be one such example and as Mary suggests, adds a slightly light hearted perception of Moodle that can be a real bonus.
One click and your students will have completed the automatically created course and the class grades according to your institution's expectation will have been submitted. You no longer have to worry about these things. We make sure it works even if you don't!
Brilliant!
Stolen!
Colin "... Moodle developers need to be a little more mindful of how the product is going to be used."
What about "Weapon makers need to be a little more mindful of how the product is going to be used."?
Joseph
Joseph, "Weapon makers need to be a little more mindful of how the product is going to be used." - is actually no joke, they are very mindful of how their implements are used. The Armaments industry is the second oldest and third most profitable industry ever. If Moodle applied that kind of dilligence, then the future would be assured..
No matter how much you make fun of it, the reality is that we always look for ways to do things easier, if not better. All I suggest is that the Moodle Community be aware of it and developers take advantage of it. If they do not, then someone else will.
Which do you think was the better program? Word Perfect or Word. I would suggest Word Perfect, but Word was easier to use. Lotus 1-2-3 was a world beater, but was laid to rest the moment Excel arrived. Word and Excel were not better, but they were easier to use, better looking, and due to their common heritage, a lot more "intuitive" - particularly when used in tandem. Bill Gates always said that it wans't the competion he was worried about, it was the future development that might do it better, do it easier. That is the same for any application.
And here is one reason why things need to be as simple and as easy as they can be, to make them faster, to cover more learning ground, to reduce manual inputs as much as possible. This is not an isolated case either, the value of calculating mannually has been questioned by no less a personage than Conrad Wolfram... from Wolfram Research...
When I first saw it I thought "animated GIF, kill it!"
Then I came here and saw it's a CSS animation an I thought "oh cool, CSS animation... kill it!"
can !== should
:deadhorse:
Actually, it was a CSS animation but had to be converted into a GIF because it was killing firefox.
Wow! The big blue arrow is now in Using Moodle forums.
And I have to say, one argument against it is the temptation to frivously drag and drop files onto it just because I can do so.
I rather like the way that gmail does it; imgur.com is even better. Gmail shows a drop-zone when a file is dragged in; imgur.com allows you to drop files anywhere on the viewport.
If the browser supports drag uploading, it automatically shows a drop zone. Having text on the page that says "To add files, click the attach button or drag a file from your computer to this area". People in the know (the internet savvy) can choose their method, the people who don't get it (or can't use drag and drop effectively) use the upload button as usual.
I personally prefer the upload button because more often than not my browser is full screen - so having to drag files means shuffling windows around.
