What do we want from Moodle quiz

What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Tim Hunt -
Number of replies: 59
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
Recently, I have been thinking about the changes I would like to make to the Moodle quiz if I had the time. I've started writing up my thoughts at: Development:Changing_the_Moodle_Question_Engine. Even though it is not complete, that is already a rather long and daunting document, and in my experience, long proposals very rarely get discussed because people never get around to reading them.

I just had the idea that, if I extracted one of the shorter and better bits here, some discussion might happen. Let's see if that was a good idea: Begin extract

Goals of an online assessment system

Before going further, I think it is worth being clear about what properties we require of a question engine. In my view, we want:
  1. Correctness
  2. Robustness
  3. Richness
  4. Efficiency
Let me explain in more detail, and summarise how I thing Moodle currently performs.

1. Correctness

This says that, assuming nothing untoward happens, given certain inputs (question definitions, student responses, ...); and an understanding (specification) of what is supposed to happen; then the quiz module will always produce the right outputs (feedback, grades, ...). This is most important, because without this, you can't rely on anything.

I think Moodle does quite well in this regard, mainly due to many committed users who will report bugs as they are encountered, and smaller group of developers who then fix those bugs.

2. Robustness

The previous section started, "assuming nothing untoward happens." Robustness is about what happens if something does go wrong. What if the server crashes in the middle of a test? What if the connection to the database is lost in the middle of processing one student's submission? What if the PHP process runs out of memory in the middle of a re-grade? What if an impatient user clicks submit repeatedly or closes their browser window? And so on.

In some of these cases, it is inevitable that some data will be lost. But robustness says that no matter what happens, the student's quiz attempt must be left in a consistent state (presumably either just before, or just after the last submission) and no more than the last submission's worth of data is lost.

I think that this is currently a weakness for Moodle. If the server goes down at the end of a timed test, bad things happen. See the list of bugs below.

3. Richness

This is about supporting a rich range of educational experiences. One of Martin's 'five laws' is that we learn when creating something for another person to see. An online assessment system can sometimes take the place of the other person. The question is, how effective a substitute can it be in how many situations?

Moodle does quite well here, with adaptive mode, plug-in-able question types and so on. However, we could do better. At the moment, writing a new question type is harder than it need be. Also, the interaction model like adaptive or non-adaptive mode is hard coded into the question engine which makes it harder to support new interactions like certainty based marking.

4. Efficiency

Given all the above, how many simultaneous users can be supported with a particular amount of hardware?

Moodle is neither flagrantly inefficient, nor as efficient as it could be. We currently lack easy-to-perform performance measurement. We should establish some, so we can estimate current hardware requirements, and observe the effect of other developments on efficiency.



End of extract. Does that agree with what you want the Moodle quiz to do for you?
Average of ratings: Useful (2)
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Jeff Forssell -
Yes

Especially Moodle's Richness has my hooked. Even thpugh I want MORE!
In reply to Jeff Forssell

Want from Moodle quiz: reorder short ans. alternatives

by Jeff Forssell -
Here's a quiz wish I didn't find in this long thread (searching "reorder" or "re-order"). (Must admit I haven't checked in the Docs now to see if this possibility has been added.)

When working with Short answer, Numerical or Regular expression questions the question engines goes through the alternative answers in order till it finds one that fits the students answer and gives that grade and feedback. If one is trimming the alternatives there, it is often important to be able to put an new alternative above 1 or more existing ones. This leads to either a LOT of copying and pasting or exporting as XML and editing outside and reimporting.

To have a re-ordering tool like in the quiz question UI would be great. Alternatives numbered 10 20 30 40 etc. If I change 40 to 21 and press a reorder button (or just Save?) that alternative would move to between 20 and 30.
In reply to Jeff Forssell

Re: Want from Moodle quiz: reorder short ans. alternatives

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators
This wish was reported in MDL-8556.
In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: Want from Moodle quiz: reorder short ans. alternatives

by Jeff Forssell -
OMG Time does fly! That was over 2 years ago.

What is the big problem with this? You've made a whole new question type but write: "I do not have the necessary programing skills to embark upon this improvement,"

(I'm not trying to say YOU should do it. I'm just trying to see if it would be a BAD IDEA for me as a PHP beginner to make a stab at this.)


In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Marco António -
Hi Tim,

i've one question about this discussion. You only want to discuss about technological issues, pedagogical issues or both?

Regards.
Marco.
In reply to Marco António

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
Both! The technology is only there as a servant to pedagogy, but you can only implement what is technically possible.
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Richard van Iwaarden -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers

I like the quiz module. What we do miss so far is only a few things. i let you categorize them yourselves smile

Compatibility

One thing I've learned since we use Moodle is duck hunting. Duck hunting? Yes, duck hunting. We had a quantazillion educational applications in our organisation(s). I went duckhunting. I shot down lots of them, mostly offering alternatives within Moodle. On the Quiz-part I'm still hunting. There are 2 very nasty wild ducks that continualy jump in and out my crosshair. They are called: Questionmark perception and Wintoets. I want to shoot them, but the questiondatabase can still not be well imported into Moodle. I seriously need this. Yes, there's GIFT and AIKEN and things like that. They are great formats to make a start. But now I'm looking at Qpacks and IMS-QTI files and theres no decent import (at least as far as I know) to get them into Moodle.

So that would be on my top wishlist.

Formal exams

Another thing, on a more educational ground, is the formal exam. The way things work 'in the field' is like this:

  1. A student has obtained a certain amount of knowledge.
  2. He requests a formal test with his teacher.
  3. The teacher files a request for a test at the exam commission
  4. The exam commission prepares the test
  5. The teacher gets an OK, can not alter the test, and informs the student at what time the test can be taken
  6. The students takes the test.
  7. Moodle and/or the teacher review the result, but can not alter the result.
  8. Result goes to exam commission.
  9. Exam commission locks the grade, teacher can't edit the grade.

I probably didn't get all these steps correct. But what I do know is that untill now I could not get this done in Moodle, we still do this on paper. The quiz module is only used for informal/diagnostic tests.

Of course the exam commission wants to be able to get management information from all tests where they locked the grades.

I hope this feedback helps you. Just 2 things that come to mind when I think of the quiz module.

Cheers,

Richard.

In reply to Richard van Iwaarden

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by A. T. Wyatt -
I like this idea of duck hunting!

Richness:
My math people would like something like dragmath to be in core.

Robustness:
We have had a few real problems with bringing quizzes over from previous versions of moodle (restored with a course). Particularly when there might have been a 3rd-party question type installed at one time, but because it was no longer maintained or because we decided to drop it, we had errors in the question banks and quizzes.

We have also had students caught in the middle when the server crashed during an exam. You mention that in your post. We would love to see some kind of recovery
mechanism!

Efficiency:

I see this as making it easy for teachers to give and grade quizzes. Not the definition you give above! smile

I default to paper tests when I want my students to generate code, or when I need to put code in the multiple choice items. I wish we could set a flag somehow that allowed for plain text questions and answers (this would also get around the problem of getting undesired emoticons in the questions).

I would like to be able to print a paper test from a quiz for those occasions when it is needed. The current format is great for the screen, but not great for printing.

I would like to be able to release a quiz for one student without involving the rest of the class (by re-opening the quiz, even if it does have a password). This is a long-standing request, so I know you are already aware of it.

atw
In reply to A. T. Wyatt

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz--outcomes

by A. T. Wyatt -
Another issue that came up today (and I am not sure if this is quiz or outcomes), but we have a need to set up outcomes that are tied to particular sets of questions, and should be deployed across a number of classes.

Example: there are 10 questions that are tied to an outcome for mathematics. Students may take any of 8 math classes, some of which have several instances (say, 1 calculus and 3 algebras). We need to set up a quiz to deliver these questions to all students enrolled in any of the instances every semester. And then get a report (or at least a csv file) that shows how well each student did on each outcome as well as getting a report (or csv file) that shows how well students enrolled in each course instance did on each outcome.

I think you can associate questions with a certain outcome now, but I don't believe you can aggregate the data from multiple courses. Or am I wrong about that? I actually haven't tried it.

But this is something that many schools would like to have, since assessment is becoming a major focus. We would like to use moodle to get more accurate data as well as reducing the amount of effort required to collect the data. Not only do you need to collect information by student in a particular course, but you need to get a bigger picture by collecting information aggregated from multiple courses (and maybe even at several levels).

I hope this description made sense!

atw
In reply to A. T. Wyatt

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz--outcomes

by Rob Johnson -
I agree the ability to link outcomes to specific quiz questions is needed in Moodle. We are in the process of inputting all California K-12 content standards as outcomes on our district Moodle site. Next year we will migrate our benchmark assessments from Edusoft to Moodle. Edusoft allows standards alignment per question. Our curriculum people want the same from Moodle. I am hopeful this ability will be planned for future versions.
In reply to Richard van Iwaarden

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

Import and export

That is really a different topic form what I am talking about, and generally a much easier one to solve.

Providing Moodle supports the question types that you want to support, then it is just a matter of munging the data you got out of the other system into the format that Moodle wants. In Moodle, import/export formats are a plug-in, so practically you just have to write one PHP file in question/format/MYFORMAT/format.php to do the work. Well, the other slightly tricky bit is reverse-engineering the file format used by the other system.

If you want a particular format badly enough, I'm sure you could pay a Moodle Partner to do it for you. Otherwise, you are reliant on the open source volunteerting/do it yourself culture, which has been know to work miracles. In the past, the main reason we don't have a good questionmark importer is that people did not send Howard enough example .qml files when he asked.

Formal exams

This sort of procedural thing is really nasty to encode in a computer program, especially as procedures have a habit of changing. I would rather make general purpose tools that people can use in various ways.

That said. Isn't the solution to your scenario for the exam board to run their own Moodle to administer the exam. At step 4. the student and teachers are enroled in the test course as student and non-editing teacher, and put in the same group (the quiz being set to separate groups, and n-e teacher not having the view all groups permission).

And come Moodle 2.0, the student or teacher will be able to use the new Portfolio integration to download a snapshot of the completed and graded attempt at the end.
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Richard van Iwaarden -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the anwsers. Is Howard still around? Because I mailed him quite some QMP questions but never got an anwser.

Thanks for the idea of running an extra Moodle just for formal exames. That could be a solution!

In reply to Richard van Iwaarden

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
I know Howard is very busy these days, and not finding as much time for development as he would like.
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Barry Oosthuizen -
I think all the essentials are covered pretty well in the Moodle Quiz Activity.

Robustness:
To me the robustness (all the points you mentioned) seems like the thing to prioritize.

Efficiency:

I get asked these questions:
Can we print it? (Printable versions)
Can we schedule it in advance? Like MDL-270
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Jan Combrink -
Correctness is very important or the quizzes will not be used.

Robustness has given me a few problems and certainly can be improved on.

Richness is great. All the discussions going on about, for instance, CBM will be very usefull once implemented, but I am yet to find any other solution offering this level of richness and usability.

I run a small site, and therefore have not experienced any efficiency problems, even though I am on shared hosting.

I think some of the other moodlers have made great suggestions regarding question creation aids and I am glad to see it being incorporated.

Thanks for all the efforts.
Jan
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Jan Combrink -
Tim

Is it at all a possibility that the questionnaire module might be integrated into the quiz module. To an extent there are many overlapping features, and as far as I can see the questionnaire module is following a seperate development path and timeline.

I am asking because I have many uses for it, but due to certain limitations I am using limesurvey still.

Integrating it with the quiz module could have many benefits, and it is only certain aspects of questionnaires (eg reporting) that will deviate from quizzes' needs. Or am I off track here?

Jan

In reply to Jan Combrink

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Jan,

As one of the co-developers of the Questionnaire module I will answer this question before Tim jumps in.wink

It has been suggested quite a few times in the past to integrate at least the quiz questions bank with a) the Lesson activity and b) the Questionnaire (and maybe the Feedback) plugings.

Although there are similarities in the question types used by Quiz and a survey activity such as Questionnaire (and Feedback), I doubt it would be useful for these activities to share a unique question bank. The matter is different with the Lesson activity (see the Lesson forum for discussions about this topic).

Indeed the purposes of a Quiz/Lesson activity on the one hand and a Questionnaire/Feedback (Survey) activity on the other are quite different. In a survey-type activity there is no concept of correct/incorrect, and no need for feedback messages to the student. I really maintain my view that there would be few advantages for Questionnaire or Feedback to draw their questions from the Quiz question bank. Questions created for Quiz would be used in Quiz only and questions created for Questionnaire ditto.

On another point I agree that Limesurvey, especially its latest versions, offers a host of facilities which Questionnaire does not (yet) offer. It would be great if Questionnaire was as powerful as LS, while retaining its simplicity of use... but you can't have everything, and you have to use the tool which is the best suited to your needs. And remember that Questionnaire is maintained by a grand team of ... 2 people, while LS has a crowd of developers; Feedback was developed and is maintained by a one-man crew!

Joseph

In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Jan Combrink -
Hi Joseph

Thanks for the response. I am fully aware of and very appreciative of the fact that most of these developments take place with limited resources. I so wish I could make a contribution! But, unfortunately, my technical competence is highly limited.

You are welcome to let me know if anything needs testing, etc, from a user/teacher point of view.

My comments above were made thinking that consolidation can bring economies in resource utilisation, not duplicating efforts. But, your points are taken.

Regarding LS, I think it works well, but also have a long way to go, eg 360 degree assessments. It is true, you cannot have it all!

Thanks again to everyone. Moodle is still the best - because of a great development team.

Regards

Jan
In reply to Jan Combrink

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Ray Lawrence -
Yes, to the summary. Some comments....

The discussion title is "What do we want from Moodle quiz" the proposal (which I have not read) title is "Changing_the_Moodle_Question_Engine" these are not necessarily the same thing. The Quiz is the primary user of the question bank but their separation was intended to facilitate use of the questions in other modules IIRC. The Lesson module would be the principal beneficiary in the short term (and needs it badly). I think this must be kept in mind when considering changes. (Survey activities are different to quiz type activities as discussed above).

Richness

Number one requests that core Moodle does not support are for drag and drop matching, click on a picture etc questions - pretty much the types that were developed in GSOC 2007. If these were in core with accessible fall backs many of the "richness" requirements would be addressed.
Average of ratings: Useful (1)
In reply to Ray Lawrence

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
You are right, I was not very clear about the scope, and somewhat sloppy with my subject line. Here is the introductory paragraph to my proposal, which explains what I mean by Question Engine:

"The Question Engine is the part of the question code in Moodle that deals with what happens when a question is attempted by a Student, or later reviewed by the Teacher or the student themselves or included in reports. Roughly speaking this is half the question code, the other part being the Question Bank, which allows people to create, edit, organise, import, export and share questions. The Question Engine is the part that has to perform when you have a large class of students taking a quiz simultaneously."

Since the question engine is currently most visible when students are taking a quiz, I think my subject line is justifiable. Anyway, I hope that clarifies what I was hoping to talk about here. However, I am always happy to listen to what people want from any part of the quiz/question bank system.


I fully support the plan to convert the Lesson to use the question bank, just as soon as someone gets the time to work on it.

And I agree with Joseph when he draws a line between:
Learning and testing questions as used in the quiz and lesson. Here, a large part of the question definition is (should be) to do with how student's responses are graded, and the feedback that helps them learn from their mistakes.
Information gathering questions as used in the questionnaire and feedback modules.

I don't see much value in using the question bank in questionnaire/feedback. (Though an import/export format in common with the question bank may sometimes be useful.)


Yes, it would be nice to have more different question types in core. But as you might guess, since I am planning to rip apart the core infrastructure, my personal preference is to get that sorted out before adding more question types.

Ah, but that has just reminded me. Someone had better make Moodle 2.0 compatible versions of the popular plug in question types before the 2.0 release.
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators
Tim > Someone had better make Moodle 2.0 compatible versions of the popular plug in question types before the 2.0 release.

I'm working on 2.0 compatibility for my own REGEXP question plugin (whether it falls in the category of "popular plugin question type" or notthoughtful).

Joseph

In reply to Tim Hunt

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In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Tom Nelson -
The Moodle community does an excellent job with the quiz module. I used WebCt CE for several years and have been using Moodle 1.9 for about six months, and Moodle performs comparably or better on most measures.
My wish list includes (with the caveat that these features may be available but I have not discovered how to use them):
1) A way to print out a scored assessment in printer friendly format. I use Moodle in conjunction with a traditional classroom: having a scored printout would help me "go over" the test and reteach material.
2) Short answer question type that allows for students to answer part one and part two of a question in the same question.
3) A "wizard" that walks new quiz and question makers through all the steps. The wizard wouldn't need all the options on it (they could be added later through the traditional interface). The goal is something that shows the relationships of the parts to the whole, rather than perfecting all the parts. As I train other teachers, I see them get hung up in the details and lose the big picture.
Thanks for asking for our thoughts.

Kind regards,
Tom Nelson
In reply to Tom Nelson

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Olli Savolainen -
Hi Tom,
As you seem to have insight about the kinds of problems teachers have while learning to use quiz, I would appreciate it if you could comment on the UI made for building quizzes for Moodle 2.0. Especially, do you think it alleviates the issues related to focusing too much on the details you talk about. If not, why? If yes, why? (I realize a part of this problem are the question forms though, which haven't yet been worked on much.)

http://test.moodle.org/head/mod/quiz/edit.php?qbanktool=0&cmid=52
user: teacher
pass: testm00dle

Thanks!
In reply to Olli Savolainen

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Tieku Bortei-Doku -

Is it safe to upgrade my 1.93 site to 2.0 at this point. I like what i am seeing so far.

Tieku

In reply to Tieku Bortei-Doku

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
No.

There is still a lot of work to be done, and some parts are half finished and therefore not working. Keep an eye on the Roadmap, especially the planning document that is linked to.
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Tieku Bortei-Doku -

Mid-2009 is quiet a wait but I guess we have to be patient.

Is it possible for someone to just extract the “Quiz navigation” panel and the ability to “Click to flag this question” from the 2.0 code for use in 1.9?

How easy/hard would that be?

Tieku

In reply to Tieku Bortei-Doku

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
Mid-2009 is optimistic. There might be a version for beta testing then.

Back-porting the quiz changes to Moodle 1.9 would be very hard. I was intentionally trying to clean up the current code while making the changes, so the changes are bigger than necessary just to implement the new features. However, the changes are big anyway. Also, various things have changed in the core Moodle libraries between Moodle 2.0 and 1.9, so transferring code between the two involves making changes, for example, every database call has to be changed.

It could be done though. Penny Leach just back-ported a lot of changes I made to the roles interface for Moodle 2.0. It was originally 5 weeks work by me, and it took Penny a couple of weeks. However, Penny is very good at that sort of thing.
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Tieku Bortei-Doku -
Then perhaps I can put in a request to Penny Leach, or anyone else willing to help me?
In reply to Tieku Bortei-Doku

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Itamar Tzadok -
Hey Tieku,

Look what I've done to the navbar. That's in the database but may be doable in the quiz too. Would something like that work for you until the wonders of 2.0 become available?


Attachment data-navbar.png
In reply to Itamar Tzadok

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Tieku Bortei-Doku -

Yes Itamar,

Something like this would work for me. This would provide an easy and convenient way to jump straight to a question. What would I need to do?

I am sure you have taken a look at Moodle 2.0 and the ability to “Click to flag this question” and Click to un-flag this question”

This is very similar to how I can flag (by clicking on a flag button) a particular message in my email inbox to go back to it later by. Is that doable as well? I just need a way to let the students know which question(s) to go back to when there up to 50 questions in a quiz, with some unanswered.

Thanks for your offer of help

Tieku

In reply to Itamar Tzadok

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators
Hi Itamar,
I don't see the point of enabling a student to jump to question #15 or ... #163 if the interface does not show the contents of that question. It's really jumping into the unknown.
Joseph
In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Matt Campbell -
It's nice to have a compact navbar like that, with the previous and next links not so far apart - when you've got a quiz with 163 pages of questions, students have to continuously scroll at the bottom of the page to get to the next question.

Thanks,
Matt
In reply to Matt Campbell

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Shail Jai -
i agree with u.... i also face same problem ..

In reply to Olli Savolainen

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Tom Nelson -
Hi Olli,

First of all, let me beg your indulgence if I make a suggestion about how to do something better in Moodle that is already possible. I am still learning a lot and sometimes I mistake a problem for something I haven't learned how to do. I am a relative newcomer.

I think the quiz creation interface is better, but I think it is still confusing and intimidating. The interface breaks out the two steps of quizzes (quiz and question), but I think the labeling of the steps, a description of them, and an overview of them, would make it easier to use. Another help would be to refrain from showing so many options and choices.

Perhaps the later area of confusion could be addressed with a "quiz setup preferences" and a similar control for question writing at the teacher user level. The power users could leave all the stuff available, but some choices aren't going to be relevant for some content areas and some levels of experience. Many question types, import and export formats, etc. could be eliminated from the set up a particular teacher uses. Say a beginner wants to use multiple choice only. Don't show so many possibilities for teachers who don't need them all yet. This also comes into play with writing questions. The current form lists penalties, feedback, overall feedback. Why is the box for the question feedback more prominent (bigger) than for the answer? Many of my beginners aren't messing with this stuff and it frightens them. Define skill levels presets – beginner, intermediate, and advanced and let the teacher select. Give the authority to make adjustments within the preset.

Another suggestion would be break the steps for quiz creation into three steps, possibly four. Instead of creating the quiz and creating the questions, make a step for 1) Name the quiz, 2) create (import) the questions 3) set availability, time limits, points, etc; 4) assign the quiz to particular students, classes and groups. Having more steps that correspond to a teacher's thinking and the test process might make it easier to use.

Here are some other things about the 2.0 that struck me

I would like to see a short answer question type with different boxes for different parts of the question, instead of complex syntax with special characters to handle all choices in same box. Besides being hard for average and below average students to answer correctly (and be rewarded), it unnecessarily adds syntax error as reason to miss the question. Learning how to correctly write the responses can be a challenge for average and below average students.

The biggest reason to separate the choices is for the instructor to learn what parts of the question are being missed. As is, the whole question is marked wrong; the teacher and student don't know what skill is lacking. If I write a test about finding prepositions

Find the (a) preposition, (b) the object of the preposition, and the (c) word modified by the prepositional phrase in the sentence:

The boy hit the ball over the fence.

A. over

B. fence

C. hit

With these answers as separate data fields, the student and I would be able to determine easily whether the problem is finding the words modified, or finding the prepositions.

I really liked the help link to the progress icons on the student interface. I am wondering if code could be written to grab the quiz settings and generate a form with time to take, number of attempts allowed, adaptive mode, penalty, time closing, etc. This could be a pop up when student opens quiz. If this information already is available to students, they don't always see it as it flashes by. Having active data from the particular instance of the quiz rather than static from teacher generated would reduce student confusion.I write it in, but it gets outdated on makeups, etc.

I think it would help students learning to use Moodle to have help link to brief instruction on how to navigate, where to click, etc. – like you do for teachers. Something like, how to take a quiz on moodle.

Hope this helps.




In reply to Tom Nelson

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Vinny Stocker -
Picture of Plugin developers
I agree Tom -

Don't show so many possibilities for teachers who don't need them all yet. .....Many of my beginners aren't messing with this stuff and it frightens them. Define skill levels presets – beginner, intermediate, and advanced and let the teacher select. Give the authority to make adjustments within the preset.

Thats a feature I'd like to see across the board in a lot of different activities, and your suggestion is a nice easy way to hide features that some teachers may never use.

If there are others that think it would be useful you could suggest it in the tracker for people to vote on.

Vinny
In reply to Vinny Stocker

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Vinny and Tom,

I would tend to agree with you ... in principle. However, if you hide features from teachers because they never use them, how will they ever discover the existence of those features so that they might use them eventually?wink

In moodle there are already a number of places where it is possible for a teacher to Hide/

Show so-called Advanced features. As an advanced moodle user myself I would very much like a general setting somewhere (in my profile, for example) where I could specify that I have the "advanced user level" so that Advanced features would be on Show throughout moodle by default.

Joseph

In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
Joseph, I think it is supposed to remember, for each form, which mode you used last.

So, if you do Show advanced on the quiz form, and then save it, then every time you go to a quiz forum after that, the advanced fields will be shown.
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators
You're right, Tim! I had not noticed that. Where are those preferences saved for each moodle form? In the database or in session?
In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
It is in the user_preferences table in the database. (There are get/set_user_preference functions in moodlelib.php and javascript-static.js.)
In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Tom Nelson -
Joseph,
I see the user-level control something in the administrative control panel each teacher has for his or her course, maybe as part of the settings or another icon. Teachers could select their skill level with the various activities and resources. When the teachers get comfortable with the tool, I think their curiosity will draw them to try more things, and change the settings to intermediate or whatever we call it. As a trainer, I see more teachers getting discouraged from feature asphyxiation than the desire for bells and whistles. Cheers!
In reply to Tom Nelson

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Jeff Forssell -
Maybe we could build in that Moodle would flash up a little page when someone, that hasn't used advanced options for more than a certain period, is entering quiz editing:

You haven't tried looking at the Advanced options for over two months. There are a lot of things that can be done there that can increase the usefulness of the quiz for you and your students. If you're beginning to feel at home in Moodle, now might be the time to check them out.

[No thanks, I'm still struggling] [I'd like more information] [Turn on Advanced Options]

(The above text I tried to indent, but that didn't show when I saved. I then tried putting it in a bordered (=2) table, but that didn't show either. Subscript doesn't work either. What's with the editor here? We should take away buttons that aren't implemented or fix them)

The "more info" button could take them to a special docs pages that could have examples of things one can do and how.

Even though one of the things I like most about Moodle is the ability to give fine tuned feedback in questions, I think that a KISS mode (Keep it simple stupid mixed like the goal, but not that last word) might be a good thing.
When starting up new teachers they could chose that and the interface would be even more scaled down: more compact, no feedback, only one right answer, automatic point and category assignment. It's really easy to do simple interactive questions once you know what you don't have to do.

A similar periodic encouragement page for "kissers" would be good too.
In reply to Jeff Forssell

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Jeff Forssell -
PS KISS might be "Keep it simple s..."

A few s-words that might fit different contexts:
social-construcivist
starter
system
success
sumptuous
supporter
supportive
survivor
sweetheat
sister
seducer
snob

In reply to Tom Nelson

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Tom > When the teachers get comfortable with the tool, I think their curiosity will draw them to try more things...

  • Thank you Tom (and Jeff) for being such optimistic people and counterbalancing the cynical grumpy characters like me.wink

Joseph

EDIT.- Jeff, that "Thank you..." paragraph is indented (through a little workaround).

In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Tom Nelson -
Hey, nobody's grumpy who can laugh about himself....big grin
In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Jeff Forssell -
I see you have a LI markup to indent. Did you manually do it all or just manually add the "none" to take away the bullet?

Jeff (optimistic, but with nudging)
(I remember my very first contact with Moodle was a "many options freedom Freakout", and I'm definitely not computer-phobic!)
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Stefan Eberhard -
A great variety of questiontypes and some features (Allowing negative marks for questions) will help a lot. My main Moodle principle is something like "Repetition and exercise is the mother of skill!" Using a great number of different questions in tests I recognized increasing skills of my students. In some subjects the existing question types are not sufficient. Tims question is very important. It helps to focus Moodle.

For a lot of subjects moodle has a sufficient number of questiontypes. But not for all.
I remember Joseph asking me, why I want to give no points at all if just ONE answer in a couple of cloze-answers is wrong. Each subject has special and different requirements to the questiontypes. So the variety of questionstypes is one key!
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Glenys Hanson -
Hi Tim,

At the beginning of this discussion you say one of Martin's 'five laws' is that we learn when creating something for another person to see.
It's said another way in the Learning Pyramid:

Learning Pyramid

(Image from http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~tbayston/eme6313/learn_retention.html
Distributed under a Creative Commons licence)


I'm looking for tools that make students the teachers.

One of the things I would like is a very simple quiz maker that students could use easily to create quizzes for their classmates. It's a really motivating task for students, but until now, they've made the quiz in a wiki and I've re-created it as an interactive quiz. Yes, very time consuming for me.

I know I could fiddle with the rôles to allow students to use Quiz and/or Hot Potatoes but these take far too long for students to learn to use - though with a "wizard" such as Tom Nelson describes above it might be doable.

I'm thinking both of MCQs and Cloze.
Is it possible to have something like the The AWL Gapmaker in Moodle (but not dedicated to academic vocabulary)?

Cheers,
Glenys
In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
Ah, I had not noticed that in copying and pasting from the wiki, the hyperlink that explained that sentence had got lost. It was actually a reference to the 'Social Constructionism as a Referent' section from the page about Moodle's Pedagogy on Moodle Docs. Yes, the learning pyramid says some of the same things.

You might like to look at the Question Creation module that Jamie Pratt created, although it is not quite what you are asking for. Also, it does not solve the problem that the forums in Moodle used to create questions are quite complex and daunting. Something that I am aware of, but don't have time to work on. (Oleg Sychev is thinking about that a bit, in his limited free time.)
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Jack Turner -
In terms of Richness, I would like more analysis of the quizzes. They work fine for simply grading a quiz, but it doesn't give me much information back (I'm running 1.9.something--how do I tell)? I've looked through the documentation and online interfaces, but I don't see anything that helps.
 
Here is the problem. I like to create a large quiz bank with questions in several categories. I then create one quiz for each area, and one overall quiz with random questions from each section. I can tell if the students pass or fail these quizzes, but how do I tell which categories they are doing well in, and which are they doing poorly in? Without this information, I can't tell where to focus my teaching.
 
Even the quiz results are done on a question by question basis, but if the quiz is composed of random questions, how does this help? Question 1 for one student has no relation to Question 1 for another student. I go to the question bank, and it doens't tell me how many times a particular question has been answered, nor does it seem to give me a success rate for a particular question. If one question has a high failure rate, I would like to examine it for flaws, or at least make sure I cover that topic in more depth in the future.
 
Can this be done now? Is there a different module that would provide this functionality? Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Jack
In reply to Jack Turner

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Jeff Forssell -
I was in the unlucky (enviable?) position that as I was discovering Moodle my employer was closing down our teaching. So I haven't had the material or motivation for doing the analysis of a large bunch of results. But I found that Moodle gave wonderful possibilities to go through what students did and refine the questions and grading.

I've made a small video tutorial about that:

I've just tried goin to the tab "Item analysis" which I think should give you a file (text or spreadsheet) that should give something like what I think you're looking for. but I didn't get it to work. Though I'm sure I have seen some page where the questions were displayed with what percentage has used various answers. But I had no experience then with random questions. There must be someone that can say more about that.

To see which version of Moodle you are using you can go to the site front page and hoover over the Moodle icon at the bottom of the page. There should come a popup saying the version (Though I've seen that IE doesn't display it. In that case look at the html source for the front page at the bottom.)
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by E. L. Cooper -

It occurs to me to throw out a useful quiz setting that we lack- a specific way to set the value of unanswered questions.

There are numerous standardized tests were a wrong answer has an odd value. For example the one government job test has a couple of instances of 40% deduction for an incorrect answer. The handbook says there is no penalty for skipping questions which I assume means they are just treated as wrong but moodle is going to take off 100% on a skipped question.

In reply to E. L. Cooper

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
I think they are saying that a wrong answer is -40% of the question score, so this is the ever popular negative marks thing again.
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Roger Moore -
This sounds very interesting and very well thought out. As someone who has developed a question type plugin (algebra) I very much agree that the plugin API could be greatly improved and I very much like the idea of having multiple interaction modes.

Regarding your question about whether the API can be backwards compatible I would say no. The point is to produce a simpler, saner and clearer API - I don't see how you can do this while keeping the API backwardly compatible - but I have not thought through the details.

One thing I would suggest that some though is given to is providing common utility methods for question types. I found myself copying large blocks of code from other question types which is inefficient.

Another thing I would like to sugggest is better support for linked/embedded media in questions. For example instead of having a special figure field why not parse the question text and extract the <img> tags? If the image is contained in the local file store then store it when exporting along with a hash. When importing a question if the file exists and has the same hash then just link to it and do not create a new copy. This would allow us to store multple images per question as well as other media file types.
In reply to Roger Moore

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
It would be useful to know which bits of code you found yourself copying. (Although I could find out for myself from http://cvs.moodle.org/contrib/plugins/question/type/algebra/)

Moodle 2.0 will have much better facilities for embedding media everywhere, so we don't have to do anything for questions, other than to remove the old separate image field.
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Roger Moore -
Saving the question's answers immediately comes to mind. I copied the code from the short answer question and put it in a separate method. However this method should really be in the questiontype base class so that every question type can use it.

I also thought that there should be some generic framework to allow question types to have additional associated objects. For example 'algebra' has associated 'variable' objects, calculated has datasets etc. Some generic way to read and write these objects would be useful and avoid code duplication (much of this code is the same as used for answer objects in any case). This would be just like te extra question fields framework that I thought was very useful (so thanks!).

The other part where I seemed to be copying lots of code (but where I have not thought about it enough to be sure that you could optimize it better) was when implementing the backup and restore methods. These did not support the extra question fields (not objects) which I'd told the framework about.

One other thing that I've had some issues with recently when improving the SAGE functionality is that there is no means for a question type to have its own config page. I imagine that this is because it is unusual for a question type to need one. However when that question type needs to access a remote server there really should be a global config setting for this. As it is I piggyback the config setting from a dummy filter (which I've since expanded to actually do something useful so it was not entirely redundant!).

When you say that Moodle 2.0 has better media support - does this include the ability to load and save that media with the question when importing/exporting? This is one of the most important features for me at the moment since it allows me to easily share questions I've written with others.

In reply to Roger Moore

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
Ah, right. The load and save, backup restore bits. Yes, that makes sense. The extra_question_fields was always meant to be just a start, with more done later, but later has not arrived yet.


Question types can have their own admin page in Moodle 2.0. That bit is already done. See Development:Question type plugin how to#Configuration settings for your question type


Hmm, files in import/export. I don't think anyone has thought about that yet. The key change is this: In Moodle 1.9, all files were stored in the course files area, so it was hard to know which content used which files. In Moodle 2.0, all files are stored associated with the content they are use by, so there will be a "question with id 123" files area. Probably that makes it a bit easier to include files in import/export, but someone will have to do a bit of work to make it happen.
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: What do we want from Moodle quiz

by Roger Moore -
In 1.9 the XML export format does support image files. If all the media files for a given question are in one location then it should be easy to load, base64 encode them and insert them into the XML output. If I get the chance I'll look into this but I'm currently busy with upgrading the algebra question and research so I have no idea when I'll have the time - probably when we upgrade to 2.0 and I really need the feature! smile