Moodle in English: $$$ for installation assistance

Hi,

I am an experience (FrontPage) web user ( 3 different hosts, 25 websites) and I give up on Moodle!
I tried installing Moodle on my last host to find that it ran MySql 4, which is not compatible with MySql 5.... So I have a new host with MySql5.

The host runs free... Joomla - Which I am considering... I find it all server based and very slow. Perhaps I am doing this wrong too!

Is there someone out there that would like to assist (telephone with setup) and be there for unexpected issues? This could be for compensation (since it is just for me, I cannot pay alot).

I am a Blackboard distance learning instructor at 6 colleges in NY. They are all set up differently by their respective BB administrator (self enroll of students, rights of instructor level and more). When I set up Moodle, on my server I would now be responsible for the content of each course. Removal of expired courses. Size of uploaded files. Note: I host a site for each of my schools with assignments, directions, media tutorials and more.

It seems logical to host my own Moodle site but one again I am at a loss to get it to work. Once again I am concerned about the role of administrator.

I see 3 levels (in Blackboard and Moodle)

1. Student
2. Instructor
3. Content Managemnt System Administrator

I am located on Long Island, NY.

Might there be a user group on Long Island?

Is there someone (Moodle or otherwise) that

1. Can assistin installtion
2. Discuss administrator management

PTo get an idea of what I know please visit my site

http://www.professorstein.com

Feel free to call me at 516-826-2867
or email me at dan@professorstein.com

Thanks!

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Veg SEO Webmaster - Tuesday, 19 June 2007, 9:46 PM

Is godaddy your host?

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Richard Enison - Wednesday, 20 June 2007, 4:59 AM

DS,

Much as I would like to try to install Moodle for you (there's a good chance I might even succeed, and I would not charge if I don't), because I could use the money, I don't think it would be ethical because I have not been certified as a Moodle partner (yet!). See http://moodle.com/installation/ for a list of partners who do installations.

RLE

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Visvanath Ratnaweera - Wednesday, 20 June 2007, 1:29 PM

Hi Richard

> I don't think it would be ethical because I have not been certified as a Moodle Partner (yet!).

How do you come to that conclusion?

Moodle is GPL, it is all there! Moodle Partner programme gives a quality assurance through the lead developer. Through this programme (hopefully) they get money to invest on the future development of the product.

In the long run, a global, losly-coupled network of experts will contribute to the success of Moodle.

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Richard Enison - Wednesday, 20 June 2007, 2:47 PM

VR,

Of course Moodle is an open-source system supported by a loosely-coupled network of experts. But do they get paid for that support? We don't get paid for contributing to this forum. It has been my impression that they don't, and that the only ones who can charge for helping people with Moodle are the official Moodle Partners listed at moodle.com; you have to apply to become an official partner, starting at http://moodle.com/helpdesk/index.php?departmentid=6&_m=tickets&_a=submit&step=1.

Have you been to that site (moodle.com)? It is very clear that only those listed there are official Moodle Partners, and only certain companies are authorized to certify people as Moodle developers, installers, trainers, etc. (http://moodle.com/certification/) I assume that others are free to contribute, but not to charge for it.

Hey, if I'm mistaken about that, that would be good news for me, because, as I said before, I could use the income. But how can I be sure??? sad (In fact, I tried to e-mail Moodle HQ about it but there doesn't seem to be any link for that. I didn't want to bother our fearless leader Martin Dougiamas about it; after all, there's only one of him and who knows how many Moodlers all over the planet. I tried to use the help desk facility at moodle.com, but I ran into problems as described in: )

I wrote a snail-mail letter to HQ asking just that. I have attached it as a MS Word doc. The enclosure mentioned in the letter is a screen-shot printout showing the error msg. Invalid image verification code.

RLE

Moodle_Letter.doc

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Visvanath Ratnaweera - Wednesday, 20 June 2007, 7:46 PM

Richard

You've chosen the wrong format. Try ODF next time

Seriously, you are mixing two things:
1. supporting somebody in Moodle for money
2. being a Moodle-Partner

You don't have to be #2 to do #1.

Advertising #1 here I would say unethical. Currently the OP is in need and put the terms on the table. Moodle will have one more happy-user if you or somebody else jumped in and quickly solved his problem.

I would have done it myself, with or without payment. But for one, right now we are changing gears for the end-of-semester sprint. Secondly the last time I did it, it was 1and1.uk I think, I hated it. I'm used to the luxery of Unix CLI with root privileges. Going through all those web-based graphical interfaces made me utterly miserable. Thirdly, the OP's server is Windows running IIS. You know, I have a small disagreement with that party. ;-(

Another point: With the expression "loosly-coupled network" I did _not_ mean moodle.com (they are tightly-coupled I guess) rather any serious person with knowlege and skills.

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Richard Enison - Thursday, 21 June 2007, 4:15 AM

VR,

I was aware that the loosely-coupled-network is not moodle.com. What I said was that I thought the loosely-coupled-network worked for free while the Partners got to charge because they were certified.

Anyway, there is another reason I had this impression. It is because I vaguely recalled reading a post in this forum that said so. Well, now that I've gotten some sleep I have searched for it and found it: http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=65099#p293374 surprise

Any comments?

RLE

PS I have been told Open Office can read MS Office docs, including macros!

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Visvanath Ratnaweera - Thursday, 21 June 2007, 5:31 AM

Richard

There have been much worse discussions http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=67388

Look, why do you worry so much about what others say? Do what you think right!

In the worst case, we are discussing this openly. If people have objections, they should stand up.

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Steve Hyndman - Thursday, 21 June 2007, 9:29 AM

Very good point Visvanath. I'm not sure how being "certified" would change anything?

--------------------------------------------------------

Now for a completely off-topic point about post ratings...

...this point is unrelated to the subject, but this is just a good opportunity to make it and it may be picked up by some when searching the forums. I used the "forums ratings" feature once in a class years ago and have never used that feature since because it added no value to the discussion and only provided a way for people who participated to support their own opinion and others who didn't participate to "rate" something without supporting their ratings.

I think the discussion thread at the link you included in your post provides an excellent example of this...just click on the ratings to see who posted ratings to certain posts and then ask yourself, "where is the value?" I have a lot more respect for people who actually participate in a debate, even when I completely disagree with them, than those who "select an item from a dropdown list" and offer no support.

Again, this is completely off-topic, but some may find this useful in their own decisions about the value of post ratings in discussion forums.

Steve

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Jon Norris - Thursday, 21 June 2007, 9:32 AM

The intricacies of Moodle setup let the Blackboard supporters in my distict gain significant ground. It is one thing to learn to use the application and yet quite another to get it installed.

I favor compensating moodle users for assisitance. I truly appreciate the spirit of Open Source, but really could have used timely support in my upgrade from 1.6 to 1.8. My reputation, the reputaion of the moodle installation and the reputations of coworkers who were also using this program all suffered while I waited for my issues to be solved via the forums.

I think it is totally awesome, that folks that know so much post their knowledge. The colaberative knowledge of all is a truely powerful force. It is the spirit of Web 2.0 that makes Moodle great.

Online coursework is but one of my duties. I have the time to learn to create courses and use the application. While I am fairly, geeky, the specifics of the installation and tweeking some of the activities are genuinly intimidating.

Is the concept of Moodle that a moodle user must also be a moodle installer and programer?

I think support is an important issue for implemntation. Are we asking educators to be programmers? Many of my difficulties resulted from a division of labor between myself, the moodle guy, and my php admistrator, the network guy.

Three months into it, we kind of have it worked out. He figured his part out early, and only after browsing many postings, was I able to find the settings he needed to adjust. All this occured while I was receiving rss feeds to my email. The volume of emails relating to moodle posts, (while interesting) have approached a point at which they impeded my normal work correspondence.

Installations appear to command the majority of the Moodle posts. Specialist to help folks through this would be fantasitc. Since most of the post I have read needed a slightly different solution, this almost requires a specialist per installation.

I saw several how to videos on utube, and would be willing to post to a moodle.org how to site relating to the application side.

Support for installation, and training on how to support a site would be a very viable service. This I believe would not violate the 'open source code of ethics', but would offer institutions a invaluable boost toward self suffciency.

If there is a better place to post such a discussion, let me know. I feel strongly that the resolution of this will significantly assist future moodle user.

Jon

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Steve Hyndman - Thursday, 21 June 2007, 9:57 AM

Support for installation, and training on how to support a site would be a very viable service. This I believe would not violate the 'open source code of ethics', but would offer institutions a invaluable boost toward self suffciency.

Jon,

I think this has been recently cleared up and is no longer an issue. I think it is clear now, at least in my mind, that people can offer, and advertise, support for Moodle installation and training on Moodle, but that wasn't the message for a long time and I think it has had a definite "chilling" effect on many who were ready and prepared to offer these services.

There is still, I believe, a real hesitation by anyone who is not a Moodle partner to respond to any request for paid help posted in these forums. So, I'm not surprised that you didn't get many, if any, responses for assistance. Partners are probably not interested in small-dollar installations and/or support and those who may be interested may not be willing to risk posting a reply to the forum. I think this will get better with time and there will be more people willing to provide this type service and potential customers will be able to easily find them.

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Richard Enison - Thursday, 21 June 2007, 10:21 AM

VR,

Do what I think is right????? What if I think it is right to send a bullet at high speed toward you between your eyes? I don't think that's a good guide for what is ethical. And if I used it I might find someone firing a subpoena at me between my eyes! dead

It's not that I worry about what others say. I am concerned that I know what the rules are so I don't violate them and end up blacklisted, sued, or arrested for fraud. The problem is I'm not sure where the rules are posted. I don't think GPL will tell me who is allowed to get paid for helping people install Moodle.

I scanned the loooooooooooooooooooong forum discussion you linked to. I didn't read every word and I certainly didn't follow the links in it; I would have grown a beard two feet long while doing that. As it is, at least three posts have been added to this thread while I was looking at it, two from SH. The last one of the three suggests people might be reluctant to help people, offering money, with their Moodle problems. Seems like I'm a case in point of that.

And what if people who have objections stand up, as you put it? Unless Martin Dougiamas is the person standing up, how do I know whether they are speaking with any authority or knowledge about the rules at all? And even him: my understanding is that he is, like me, a programmer, not a lawyer. Presumably he has consulted one.

I still don't know what the rules are. I guess I'll have to mail my letter.

RLE

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Gary Benner - Thursday, 21 June 2007, 11:31 AM

HI all,

"Moodle" is a registered trademark owned by the Moodle Foundation. Moodle.com and it's partners are the only parties allowed to use it in any commercial manner (hosting, services, customisation etc).

Moodle.com actively pursues any non Moodle Partner using the Moodle trademark as part of their business.

The Moodle software is released under the GPL, so anyone is allowed to download it, use it, and modify it for themselves ... or ask someone else to modify it. They can of course contribute any changes back to the Moodle community, which is how open source works. But Moodle partners are the only ones allowed to use the trademark etc, under the terms of the commercial agreement they sign with Moodle.com.

Being a Moodle partner is not necessarily a measure of their technical expertise. Moodle is PHP code written to run on Linux and Windows servers, using a variety of database systems - so hosting architectures, clusters, backups etc ( all general IT stuff ) - not to mention hardware - there is significant territory there, and so you may be best get local expertise for the generic stuff, and use the community / partners for application assistance.

HTH

Gary

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Richard Enison - Thursday, 21 June 2007, 3:02 PM

GB,

Point of order, Mr. Chairman. Are you saying that the trademark in question doesn't have to be the three-dimensional version in sans-serif font, with or without the mortar-board cap, like the one attached to this post, but that any use of the word, regardless of case, constitutes the trademark?

Okay. Well, if that is the only thing excluded, then it would be alright to advertise (not on this web site of course), "I will help you install (or maintain, etc.) open-source educational software written in PHP that comes from a foundation headquartered in East Perth, Western Australia, for a fee." Right?

RLE

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Robert Brenstein - Thursday, 21 June 2007, 6:39 PM

Gary, what you say, and correctly, is that it is not acceptable to operate a business that offers (and advertises) Moodle-related services without being certified. However, this is different from someone, who does not operate such a business, responding to a call for help and getting compensated for the time and effort.

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Howard Miller - Thursday, 21 June 2007, 6:44 PM

This is interesting....

I do indeed provide work as part of a small team of consultants more or less dedicated to Moodle. We do not advertise Moodle on the front page of our web site as we are not Moodle Partners.

I would personally not tout for business in these forums as I do actually think it flies in the face of the Moodle Partner programme which, after all, puts money back into Moodle which my business does not. It's mostly how I feel about it though - it just seems a bit shabby.

However, a definite ruling on this sort of thing might be nice. I guess it would have to come from Martin.

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Steve Hyndman - Thursday, 21 June 2007, 8:43 PM

In my opinion is has already been made clear.

The ONLY restriction we enforce (and this is a lot less of a restriction than many trademark holders enforce) is that you cannot call it "Moodle Hosting". That's all.

To me, that's pretty clear, posted here: http://www.alledia.com/blog/general-cms-issues/open-source-projects-not-really-open/

Steve

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Howard Miller - Thursday, 21 June 2007, 9:45 PM

Well ok, but I wasn't talking about web sites promoting Moodle services (or similar). I was specifically talking about responding to requests for commercial Moodle services on these pages.

After all, I guess this site is paid for my MD's commercial operation and it wouldn't, IMHO, be unreasonable to have a default position of pointing people to the list of Moodle Partners when responding to such requests.

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Steve Hyndman - Thursday, 21 June 2007, 10:27 PM

After all, I guess this site is paid for my MD's commercial operation and it wouldn't, IMHO, be unreasonable to have a default position of pointing people to the list of Moodle Partners when responding to such requests.

I'm not sure what the policy on that is, but I agree with your point. Posters who want other options can always supply contact information. But, in the absence of a policy and clear guidelines, there will always be people "making up" a policy.

Steve

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Gary Benner - Friday, 22 June 2007, 3:00 AM

HI Howard (et al),

I had only tried to clarify the situation as I saw it, and as I understood the various legal documents found on the moodle.org site.

Moodle (the business) is different from say Open Office, and has been featured in articles for it's success. "Linux Format" did a good one earlier in the year.

However, as these forums prove, there is a lot more to a successful Moodle installation than any one certified Moodle Partner could ever hope to cover (maybe one or two could) as the technological soup is quite extensive. eg if you need a cluster specialist get a cluster specialist .... if you need a MSSQL replication setup, go talk to a certified M$ partner ... but if you need help in handling Moodle quizzes, or something that relates directly to the architecture and content of Moodle, then you know where to go.

As you suggest Howard, perhaps Martin could clarify the role and expertise of a Moodle partner, and what technical standards they have to achieve to be certified. Is it like Linux or M$ certification?

In my personal experience as a software author, my experienced users are better qualified to answer questions!!! So I fully support these forums for user help.

kind regards

Gary Benner

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Howard Miller - Friday, 22 June 2007, 8:38 AM

....again, just to be clear, I didn't ask that. I just wondered how appropriate it was to respond to requests for paid for help in these forums.

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Richard Enison - Friday, 22 June 2007, 9:56 AM

GB,

"the various legal documents found on the moodle.org site"

Excuse me, but what legal documents????? I have been to http://moodle.org, looked for a "terms & conditions" link like most website home pages have, clicked every link that I thought could possibly take me to a page where I might find legal documents. Haven't found a single one. sad

Please tell me what obscure, arcane sequence of links do I need to follow from the home page to get to these many legal documents?

Thx in advance.

RLE

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Dale Jones - Friday, 22 June 2007, 12:10 PM

Try this one for starters. (The arcane series of links included typing the word "licence" or even "license" into the Search box on the front page, then clicking the first obscure one that came up).

This argument has annoyed me for ages but I've avoided getting involved. I'll probably regret this.

It's always been clear and plain (to me, at least) that one shouldn't use the Moodle name and trademark to advertise one's Moodle services unless one is a Moodle Partner, since it is these guys who, through their early and/or in-depth commitment to Moodle are approved to supply services. Their solutions are robust and getting Moodle Partnership ain't easy; Mr. D. has high expectations of robustness for technological and business expertise. (Well you would, wouldn't you, if you were letting people use your trademark to promote their business). They are required to make a (non-trivial) contribution to the Moodle Trust for the privilege of being able to use said trademark. Moodle Partners (generally, as I understand it) largely make their living through Moodle so IMHO they ought to have some sort of security.

Any old Joe can set up a Moodle hosting solution using their favourite shared hosting provider and sell as many Moodles as they like (until their service grinds to a halt under the load), but a Moodle Partner will give a guaranteed service that is underwritten by the Moodle organisation, or they wouldn't have got Partnership. That's not to say that non-partners can't provide an equally reliable service; they can, but they might choose not to become partners or they might not have made a successful application for whatever reason. The difference is that Partners pay for the right to put "Moodle Services" and the logo on their website and in their advertising. And rightly so.

The difficulty is in the wording I think. Please, somebody (official) tell me if I'm wrong.

"Any Old Joe Moodle Hosting" or "Joe's Moodle Support" would have to be a Partner, since it implies that the services are endorsed by, and specifically for, Moodle.

"Any Old Joe Hosting, which supplies hosting for the Moodle platform" or "Joe's support for Moodle" would not have to be a Partner since the implication is that they are a hosting business that happens to support Moodle. In this case, Joe would not be obliged to support Moodle financially but would not be entitled to use the trademark or logo on his site. He should expect a cease and desist order if he uses it. And it serves him right.

The way I see it, if through your own vision and expertise you've built a product that many people are prepared and empowered to help develop, such that your reputation is now global and you have a network of organisations who have been bothered to learn and support the product through their own time and expertise AND are prepared to stake their livelihoods on it in sustainable and demonstrably robust businesses AND are prepared to invest under contract in the aforementioned product, then you are entitled to put a few restrictions on the use of your trademark, if only to protect the business interests of those people. (If I understand it right, you can restrict your trademark as you like but in Moodle's case it has been done sensitively and appropriately, IMHO).

If somebody doesn't like the restriction they are perfectly at liberty to go away and develop something for themselves, independently. And see if they like it when another party infringes their trademark.

And I agree with HM. Advertising your services in the free support forums unless you're a paying Partner just Doesn't Feel Right.

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Richard Enison - Friday, 22 June 2007, 3:21 PM

DJ,

Thx for the link. It would not have occurred to me to do a search on license. Trademark maybe, but not license.

As for the rest of your post, if you are talking to me, you are preaching to the choir. I'm the one who started this discussion by telling Prof. Stein I didn't think it would be ethical for me to accept money for installing Moodle for him.

Aside from that, GB referred to legal documents, plural. I don't know whether the other ones he has in mind can be found by doing a search on the word license, or trademark. He's the world's expert on what documents he has seen. And you-know-who in East Perth is the world's expert on this site.

As a matter of fact, I just remembered: When I first read that post I did do a search -- on the word legal. Mostly got a bunch of forum posts.

RLE

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Dale Jones - Friday, 22 June 2007, 10:47 PM

>Thx for the link. It would not have occurred to me to do a search on license. Trademark maybe, but not license.

Glad to be of service.

>As for the rest of your post, if you are talking to me, you are preaching to the choir.

Nope, not directly to you RE, but for the attention of one, maybe two other categories of folks; those who still misunderstand this issue, or those who fully understand it and can put me right if I've misunderstood. I'm glad to be corrected if I'm wrong, my post was partly a cry for clarification (although re-reading it, it sounds a little know-all-high-and-mighty. Sorry if it reads that way, it wasn't intended to be like that. It was early and I'd been up all night, etc, etc.).

Edit: Just scrolled down and saw response from MD. Well there ya go.

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Visvanath Ratnaweera - Friday, 22 June 2007, 2:07 PM

> What if I think it is right to send a bullet at high speed toward you between your eyes?

You can guess how happy I am about this _distant_ communication!

> I don't think that's a good guide for what is ethical.

Luckily!

> And if I used it I might find someone firing a subpoena at me between my eyes!dead

There you are! These flying objects tend to boomerang.

Yes, in principle, what is right what is wrong is something very individual. In practice the understanding is evolutionary: either you fit to the accepted norm at that time and place or lose contact.

In the current context, I'm not unhappy about the way many of the posters interpret the situation - a situation where not everything is regimented. Apparantly people are asking for it, we need freedom defined!

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Richard Enison - Friday, 22 June 2007, 3:35 PM

VR,

I was afraid you would misunderstand my comment about the bullet. It was not a death threat, it was an extreme example of where the guideline "do what you think right" can lead to, which is why I don't rely on it. I could give more extreme examples, that have actually happened in history. Like genocide, and terrorism.

RLE

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Visvanath Ratnaweera - Monday, 25 June 2007, 3:07 AM

Hi Richard

Sure I got the message right, don't worry. This is the kind of humour common to all the friends of Murphy

Anyway the matter is settled (I hope) with MD's answer.

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Richard Enison - Monday, 25 June 2007, 7:26 AM

VR,

Okay. Good. That's a relief. cool And of course, if you got my message completely, then you know that the hypothetical subpoena in my post did not represent a response to the hypothetical shooting (that would have called for an arrest warrant), but to my hypothetically breaking the rules about helping people with Moodle for a fee.

I presume by Murphy you mean as in Murphy's Law.

And yes, as I said in my response to MD's post and earlier, I consider his answer authoritative.

RLE

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Martin Dougiamas - Friday, 22 June 2007, 2:34 PM

This is not quite right, Richard.

The policy is explained at: http://docs.moodle.org/en/License

Yes, of course I *prefer* people to use Moodle Partners because they put money into the Moodle Trust and help pay for Moodle's development.

However, you or anyone else is perfectly free to help people and charge for it if you want to. It's your time and nothing to do with me. I even encourage it (providing that the person needing help can afford it, and is aware of the free support resources like moodle.org). It's all part of the rich ecosystem of a project like this and in the end I just want to see people using Moodle successfully.

The only restriction is how you ADVERTISE (that's the key word here) such services. So posting a big generic advertisement on moodle.org is not cool. Putting up a commercial web site advertising an extensive list of services such as "Moodle Hosting", "Moodle Support", "Moodle Consulting" is also not cool, because these directly impact the advertising of Moodle Partners who are supporting Moodle. The idea is that Moodle Parters have an *advantage* which is worth paying for. Moodle Partners do not have a monopoly on Moodle services.

So if you want to charge someone for your help then just contact the toubled person (eg Dan in this case) directly using messaging or email and make an offer. Or build a business web site that does not use the Moodle trademark in those ways. If you have any questions, ask us on the moodle.com helpdesk as the license explains. (BTW, I don't know what was happening for you with the verification image because it works for me and the dozens of other people who use it every day).

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: $$$ for installation assistance

by Richard Enison - Friday, 22 June 2007, 3:53 PM

MD,

Thanks for clearing that up. I am honored to be addressed directly by the founder and creator Moodle. You are the only one who is, that I know of, an authority on these issues. And I have seen the license page you refer to, thx to an earlier post in this thread by DJ.

As for the verification image, I'm not sure what you mean by it works. Is it that the image is displayed, along with a place to type in the code, or it it not supposed to ask for a code? I know that in the application for partner there is an image and a box for the code, but neither of these elements are on the help desk registration page. Yet when I tried to use it, I got the error msg. I reported. I guess I'll go ahead and mail that letter; maybe you'll see it and the enclosed screenshot with that msg. on it.

I haven't mailed it yet because I'm disabled and I haven't been feeling up to going out and mailing it yet. That usually happens about once a week. That's why I'm looking forward to becoming a Moodle developer. It's the only kind of work I know of that I can still do.

RLE

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