Since Moodle XML is the most reliable format. Why don't we make that the default?
I second that whole-heartedly!
Joseph
Joseph
Because the use case for GIFT import is much more common than the one for Moodle XML. Isn't that how defaults are chosen?
У одговору на John Isner
Re: Why is GIFT the default import/export format
написао/ла Joseph Rézeau -
Have never used GIFT format in my moodler's lifetime and don't think I ever will, but I know John is a great fan of GIFT.
У одговору на Joseph Rézeau
Re: Why is GIFT the default import/export format
написао/ла John Isner -
Joseph,
Actually I'm not a fan of GIFT, but it's the only format I can reasonably create by hand that supports most of the question types (now including Essay and Description, thanks to Howard Miller).
GIFT is a problem for math becauseof the conflict between LaTeX markup and GIFT delimiters. You have to escape the =, ~, {, and } in your LaTeX markup. I would like another format (ideally close to GIFT), also designed for human consumption (i.e., not XML-ish), that is LaTeX-friendly. I have done some prototyping with lex and yacc (oops, flex and bison -- I'm showing my age), but I don't have a good solution.
Actually I'm not a fan of GIFT, but it's the only format I can reasonably create by hand that supports most of the question types (now including Essay and Description, thanks to Howard Miller).
GIFT is a problem for math becauseof the conflict between LaTeX markup and GIFT delimiters. You have to escape the =, ~, {, and } in your LaTeX markup. I would like another format (ideally close to GIFT), also designed for human consumption (i.e., not XML-ish), that is LaTeX-friendly. I have done some prototyping with lex and yacc (oops, flex and bison -- I'm showing my age), but I don't have a good solution.
The reason I asked the question is that I just had to break it to a member of staff here, that she had done the wrong thing when she used GIFT format to move a lot of questions from one place to another, and that was the reason that all the feedback has disappeared, and that she would have to redo the move. (It was a lot of separate categories.)
But I did feel a bit bad about this, because it defaults to GIFT format, and unless it has been explained to you, it is not at all clear that you should switch to Moodle XML, so it is an easy mistake to make - and that is bad user interface design.
But I did feel a bit bad about this, because it defaults to GIFT format, and unless it has been explained to you, it is not at all clear that you should switch to Moodle XML, so it is an easy mistake to make - and that is bad user interface design.
But once again: what is the use case for Moodle XML? The predominant use case should dictate the default. Is import mainly for "moving questions" (what your staff member was doing), or for bringing new questions into Moodle? As I recall, Tim Takemoto estimates 95% of uses are the latter.
In my view it's simple, the best supported and most future proof is a useful choice for the default. It's impossible to please all people all the time. If this is suddenly a major issue simply change the drop down to one like one used for "Create new question".
У одговору на Ray Lawrence
Re: Why is GIFT the default import/export format
написао/ла Joseph Rézeau -
Actually, it is a fairly small form, so there is plenty of space available, we coudl make it a set of radio buttons, so all the options are available at a glance.
No matter what way of choosing the format is chosen, it seems to me that it is important to have an imposing warning, like, if one has chosen GIFT, esp. when exporting:
GIFT format is not the best format for moving question from Moodle to Moodle. Many Moodle quiz features can be lost. For moving within Moodle it is best to use Moodle XML format.
У одговору на Jeff Forssell
Re: Why is GIFT the default import/export format
написао/ла Howard Miller -
There is a warning for all formats that you may loose some information. However, I do take your point. If you want to raise a new-feature bug report (easy to forget things at my age) I'll add a suitable comment.
I'm not a big fan of more "do you really want to do that" messages when they are not absolutely required, though.
I'm not a big fan of more "do you really want to do that" messages when they are not absolutely required, though.
У одговору на Howard Miller
Re: Why is GIFT the default import/export format
написао/ла Jeff Forssell -
We don't have to force them to confirm that they've read the warning. I too am a bit tired of the "don't run with scissors" warnings that surround us in the modern (I'll sue you) world.
У одговору на Jeff Forssell
Re: Why is GIFT the default import/export format
написао/ла Joseph Rézeau -
Hey Jeff,
I'm with you on this one. Fed up with those silly warnings.
Now you've been warned.
Joseph
I'm with you on this one. Fed up with those silly warnings.
Now you've been warned.
Joseph
У одговору на John Isner
Re: Why is GIFT the default import/export format
написао/ла Howard Miller -
Perhaps we can have a think about it and fix the latex problem in GIFT.
The $$ markers are not a GIFT construct so I don't think it would be too hard to spot them and simply "pass through" everything in between.
I'll take a look.
The $$ markers are not a GIFT construct so I don't think it would be too hard to spot them and simply "pass through" everything in between.
I'll take a look.
У одговору на Howard Miller
Re: Why is GIFT the default import/export format
написао/ла John Isner -
Thanks Howard. That would make a lot of people happy. Don't forget the Algebra delimiters @@@...@@@ 
It was never a decision as such. Remember that GIFT predates XML by a number of versions. Writing the XML format was one of the very few usefull things I have ever done 
Another problem is that the GIFT format will import almost anything - so it can give the impression of working even though you get a load of junk.
I agree that we should just change it to the XML format. Forgetting to change it will at least mean a load of error messages which might make you think about it!
EDIT:
OR... like has been mentioned, force everybody to choose.
Another problem is that the GIFT format will import almost anything - so it can give the impression of working even though you get a load of junk.
I agree that we should just change it to the XML format. Forgetting to change it will at least mean a load of error messages which might make you think about it!
EDIT:
OR... like has been mentioned, force everybody to choose.
У одговору на Howard Miller
Re: Why is GIFT the default import/export format
написао/ла Joseph Rézeau -
Howard > OR... like has been mentioned, force everybody to choose.
or ... force allow everybody to choose.
У одговору на Joseph Rézeau
Re: Why is GIFT the default import/export format
написао/ла Howard Miller -
No - FORCE 
У одговору на Howard Miller
Re: Why is GIFT the default import/export format
написао/ла Joseph Rézeau -
Hmm, you can't force people to be free, or can you?
У одговору на Joseph Rézeau
Re: Why is GIFT the default import/export format
написао/ла Howard Miller -
That's much too philosophical for this time of the day 
Seriously though - the trouble with defaults is that they are only any use if they are going to suit *most* people. Other than that it is best to (careful choice of word) "require" poeple to make a decision.
On reflection, I think the import/export format situation falls into the latter group.
Seriously though - the trouble with defaults is that they are only any use if they are going to suit *most* people. Other than that it is best to (careful choice of word) "require" poeple to make a decision.
On reflection, I think the import/export format situation falls into the latter group.