UK host for a large school?

UK host for a large school?

by Darren Smith -
Number of replies: 26

Hi.

I am experimenting with moodle with collegues on my webspace and am now seriously starting to look at rolling it out across a lot of departments for our secondary school and sixth form. There are around 1200 kids but obviously all wont be using it all of the time in every subject.

I would be gratefull for advice on very reliable web hosts (UK) in terms of what requirements I should be looking for and also any recommendations.

I did look at moodle.com but that is way out of my budget.

Thanks in advance smile

Darren

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In reply to Darren Smith

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Ray Lawrence -

I'm not using my webhost commercially but I find it very reasonable, reliable, with good support (some operatives are UK based), has all the stuff you need for moodle plus an extensive easy to use control panel (it's dead easy to configure email, MySQL, sub domains etc. etc.).

It's not in the UK, not sure why that's essential to you. Oh, the name is Total Choice Hosting - I think you will need to purchase a domain name from them (not 100% sure on this though).

Ray

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In reply to Darren Smith

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Ray Le Couteur -

Hello Darren

Take care here - any reasonably large moodle install (>150 users?) will cause you problems with a cheap shared webhost.

See this thread and the problems I and others have had:

http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=3039

I was lucky to sign up to Moodle.com when the cost was a lot less ........... in the long term I am thinking about setting up my own server as this will give me much more control.

Ray

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In reply to Ray Le Couteur

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Ray Lawrence -

Hmm. I wasn't aware of this. Something for me to think about in future when I get to using Moodle seriously.

Ray

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In reply to Ray Lawrence

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Martyn Overy -

I am not sure why you need a UK host.  I have a number of installations on various servers in the USA, and one in the UK.  Although the uptime is very good, I have experienced severe problems with support from the UK host at  www.webfusion.co.uk  . Fortunately I have  have not required the use of support for some time.

Now across the big pond there are some superb webhosting companies available , at relatively low cost. You will to make sure that the bandwidth and webspace will be adequate for your expansion projections. I can thoroughly recommend   www.totalchoicehosting.com  for their superb support, connectivity + bandwith+ generous webspace allocation.  However, I appreciate the problems that Ray has pointed out.  It must be measure of the success of Moodle at his school to have over 200+ users. Many of us  just dream about this.....since for many teachers it involves a paradigm shift in the way we view 'teaching and learning'.  It is remarkable how many teachers are reluctant to move from their 'safe mode'  and try something different! Seems to me there needs to be a shift from the preferences of teachers, to the needs of  the students.....

Try a search on   www.findmyhosting.com  to discover the hosting opportunities. However, look very carefully for a large number of positive responses from actual users to narrow down your search. Also look at the webhosting infrastructure.

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In reply to Martyn Overy

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Ray Lawrence -

Martyn,

I didn't raise the issue with difficulties, I was was the one blindly recommending TCH without understanding all of the issues. Sound of sighing. So much to learn, so little time.

I can understand Darren's sentiments about accounts departments, even in large companies in he UK things often aren't much different.

I think this is a topic of interest to many who frequent the forums. I'm in a state of confusion after reading what appears to be conflicting information.

Can anyone give a firm pointer for web hosting companies? It's probably (hopefully) reasonable to expect that demand will soon outstrip the availability at Moodle.com.

Ray

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In reply to Ray Lawrence

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Ray Le Couteur -

Hi Ray

Totalchoicehosting  is a good host - I use it personally and for a small moodle site.

However, bandwidth and disc space are not the key criteria for a larger Moodle installation.

The bottleneck is the Mysql database used by Moodle and the strain it puts on the cpu of the server when there are multiple users online at the same time. This is what caused the problems for my (also UK) school at Totalchoice (and apparently crashed their server).

A  class of 30 pupils hammering away at the Moodle installation simultaneously was just too much ......

Best wishes

Ray Le Coueur

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In reply to Ray Le Couteur

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Martyn Overy -
Ray,

How did you obtain this information? From Totalchoicehosting? How did you obtain information relating to strain on servers? A deduction/extrapolation/educated guess? I ask this because, by your own admission, Totalchoice hosting were not exactly forthcoming with support relating to your problems.

1. How does a potential subscriber find out about potential 'server strains' before commiting money to a hosting company? Is it a case of mentioning "I am about to install Moodle Moodle for 100 enthusiastic users! "

2. Now, if it really as bad as you make it out, then perhaps Moodle needs to come with a health warning, or users need to dump all those unused Modules and use a slimmed down version (as Martin has advised elsewhere). Or perhaps overuse of cron might be a clue to the problems...is is really necessary to initiate this every 5-10 minutes? (I rarely use this facility)

3. I have not experienced problems with 30 users...although they were not 'hammering away' all the time. In fact, when I observe my students, I have yet to see users 'hammering away' on a continuous basis.

( P.S Were you hosted on Server 27 When did the crash occur? ) wink
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In reply to Martyn Overy

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Ray Le Couteur -

Hello Martin

Much of this information is available in this forum - after my rather stressful experience with Totalchoice, I did quite a bit of searching through relevant posts.

However, Totalchoice did eventually give some explanation - I quote "Your account was suspended due to excessive CPU resources being used which was causing problems on the server. There was over 40 simultaneous SQL connections active and that is why the site has been suspended". 

I don't believe that CRON is an issue: I had set it to every hour, and switched it off completely when Totalchoice first suspended the site. At that stage I thought this had probably solved the overusage of resources issue  (as they were unable to pinpoint the exact problem) - and so I was surprised when they completely pulled the plug 4 days later

Also have a look at this thread http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=3039; especially the posts by David Delgado who has clearly researched the subject. And there is also a post by another Totalchoice user whose site was also suspended by them.

There is a suggestion that setting  $CFG->dbpersist = false; in config.php may help to reduce the problem. But I wasn't aware of this while my school was hosted by Totalchoice, so I haven't been able to test it.

As to the 'hammering away' - well, I still don't know exactly when the problem occured (Totalchoice never told me), but Year 7 and 8 pupils tend to use the keyboard very rapidly, backwards, forewards, refresh (it always amazes me at their speed compared to me using a PC); and the logs showed such use the day before suspension. And yes, I think it was server 27 at Totalchoice.

Best wishes

Ray

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In reply to Ray Le Couteur

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Martyn Overy -

Well, the true picture is beginning to emerge. Moodle started as a great resource, and has 'blossomed'  into a Juganaut , taking on new Modules and resources, and beginning to become the VLE that everyone is looking for ...a resource that meets the needs of everyone!   The exponential expansion of Moodle suggests that the developments are becoming more and more attractive to users with different agendas/needs. I don't have a problem with this rate of expansion at all, except that my little venture into VLE now has to expand into a quest for new sources of money to make it successful in our cash-strapped school.

Catch-22 ... make sure that your cash-strapped school can find new funding to pay for the hosting requirements for Moodle!

 Some guidance/advice will certainly be needed, related to resource requirements. Users should not be put in a position where they will be told later of the 'problems' with expansion.

There are a few possible solutions, for cash-strapped schools.

1. There is no problem at all in spreading a number of Moodle's around the world, hosted on a number of different servers. Why put all your eggs into one basket, and then wait for doomsday/armageddon? 

2. Each department should be encouraged to take on board their own Moode resource (site), rather than to depend on one person trying to do everything. Goodness, the learning curve is not that steep.

3. Another partial solution is to be very selective with the Modules, and to only install the ones you will need at the time.

Also, unless there is a very real need, the use of  Moodle involving  full class participation at any instant might not be entirely necessary or desirable. The use of  Moodle can be spread along the 24/7 universe, not just in a 1 hour class slot. Therein is the great beauty of Moodle.

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In reply to Ray Le Couteur

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Darren Smith -

Thanks for the replies so far.

The reason I would like it to be a UK host is simply becuase the finance dept. where I work are not as global as us lot here and may have concerns subscribing to a company in a different country along with issues regarding invoicing and variable cost (as interest rate changes) mixed. Path of least resitance for me at the mo wink

Anyway. I am running mine on supanames but am finding it a little slow and have been having problems which have mostly been resolved but I want something to run super smooth if I am going to encourage other depts to use this. We are planning to put it on our own server at some point (and authenticate the users against our domain) but, to be honest, we have so much going on at work at the moment I just wanted a simple, smooth, interim solution.

Darren

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In reply to Darren Smith

Re: UK host for a large school?

by W Page -
Hello,

What about Freedom2Surf? They use to have one of the best free hosting sites on the internet until they stopped the "free" offer a few years back. Then they went total pay.

I have not found "FindMyHosting.com" too helpful in checking on web hosts but a good place to check out web hosts is WebHostingTalk.com. Remember, many of the folks on this board are web host providers themselves so you may have some biases displayed there but overall it can be a very helpful resource.

Good Luck

WP1


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In reply to W Page

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Milton Molina -

Hi, W Page, I have been tracking your post about free hosting. Lamentably, when you were offering free host in 1.1.com or something like that. It was late. Anyway, could you recommend me, where can I host my moodle, I need to make test before to put in the web server where I work. I have been trying to get your e-mail, but it is not displayed in your personal information.

Thanks in advance....

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In reply to Milton Molina

Re: UK host for a large school?

by W Page -

Hi!

Sorry I am responding late.  I am so backed up with stuff right now.  Just catching up we loads of Moodle e-mail. 

Moodle.com offers very good services from what i understand with short return times for questions and issues.  However, I also understand it is not cheap.  Expensive is not always good but I understand Martin who runs Moodle.org does a very good job with hosting sites.

That said, I think you are looking for a free site which runs php and can supply at least one mySQL database.  Not sure of how many folks will be using your site but it seems that you just want to test things out for now.  The best free site for this type of configuration is http://www.tripod.co.uk  but for some reason Moodle will not run on it.  A very low cost solution for a test site would be NetMondo.com for $24.00 U.S. / yr for 300MB, 7GB and an installion of Moodle from Fantastico.  They appear to want Moodle business so that may be a good priced alternative for someone who justs wants to "wet their feet".

Hope this helps.               

WP1                 

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In reply to Darren Smith

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Martyn Overy -
Darren,

I understand the problem. Unfortunately our school does not yet have a staff credit card facility, which rather restricts choice of hosting companies. So, I use my credit card, obtain a receipt, and obtain reimbursement from the school. As yet, we cannot afford to pay the hosting fees required by Moodle.com.  Perhaps there is a case for an educational rate, for all those schools and educational establishments which are 'merely' using Moodle to enhance and enrich education for students, rather than to generate income.
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In reply to Martyn Overy

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Mark Berthelemy -
Hi everyone,

Two comments to make based on experience in hosting VLE sites for whole schools:

1) The UK Data Protection Act is quite clear that information about an individual (that's any information, not just "personal data" like email address & phone number - it includes assessment information) must not leave the European Union unless it goes to a state that has a similar Data Protection Act - the USA is not one of those countries (unless the hosting organisation is part of the "Safe Harbor" scheme).

See the introduction at: http://www.informationcommissioner.gov.uk/eventual.aspx?id=1038&expmovie=1. There's more on the site if you need more detail.

2) The rates of $2000 per year for Moodle.com are highly competitive in terms of providing a mission-critical service to a whole school (but see (1) above - I believe Moodle.com is hosted in the USA smile ). Personally, I can't see how Martin can reduce the prices for educational institutions and still make a living.

The benefit of Open-Source software is its lack of licence fees - but that doesn't mean that you can get away without paying for anything. The Open Source economy is based on providing services, eg. hosting, support, training & consultancy. Somewhere along the line, if you're going to be serious about using Moodle (or any open-source software), you're going to need to realise that people need to be paid for their time - whether it's internal people supporting your own server, or external service organisations.

I would never recommend running a mission-critical (or even just mission-important) whole school service on a cheap shared web-host. Use those services for simple stuff or for trying out applications; but for serious use you need expect to pay serious money for serious hardware & support.

Excuse the rant. Please don't be offended anyone. smile

All the best,

Mark
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In reply to Mark Berthelemy

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Ray Lawrence -

Mark,

I may be taking this discussion off topic by responding to your comments, but here goes anyway.

Data Protection Act. This is on my list of things to get to grips with properly. Thanks for your insight into this point.

The benefit of Open-Source software is its lack of licence fees - but that doesn't mean that you can get away without paying for anything. The Open Source economy is based on providing services, eg. hosting, support, training & consultancy. Somewhere along the line, if you're going to be serious about using Moodle (or any open-source software), you're going to need to realise that people need to be paid for their time - whether it's internal people supporting your own server, or external service organisations.

Hear, hear.

Ray
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In reply to Mark Berthelemy

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Martyn Overy -

Now for some reality checks!  How many teachers around the world, including the UK, are giving up their own time and often resources (money) to really get this off the ground?   This is in addition to full-time teaching.  Most of the pioneering spirit of adventure and innovation comes from within the heart of schools, and Open Source has opened up new opportunities that could not have been realised over ten years ago.

I notice (Mark) that you are in the 'business' sector.  You have also pointed out some obvious points that I am only to well aware of, especially in developing VLE's  within schools.  I am also fully aware that the 'free'  terminology related to Open Source does not indicate or imply zero cost.  Yet, I also notice that many consulting organisations are beginning to flourish and take a ride on this fabulous adventure.  Seems like self-appointed experts are on an exponential rise with the development of Open Source.  Of course, the developers of such wonderful resources who launch their own consulting and support services deserve every success. Without Martin and his colleagues we would not be all able to benefit from this wonderful educational facility.

To get this off the ground in many cases is an uphill struggle against 'safe mode' teachers and an inbuilt resistance from senior management that anything 'free' cannot possibly be any good. Furthermore, Becta's association with Microsoft does nothing to promote the advantages of using  Open Source resources in schools.  ( Becta, the UK's Government lead agency for ICT in education, reports that schools that use Microsoft software can "save millions of pounds" through a new licensing agreement negotiated by a "Memorandum of Understanding". This has been signed with Microsoft in relation to their licensing framework for schools. This action has been done on behalf of Charles Clarke, Secretary of State for Education and Skills.)

I would suggest that there is little evidence that Moodle is being developed on a large scale within schools. Hey, when is there going to be a plateau in this rapid development?   We are still in the evaluation phase.... and trying so hard to convince others around us that this can really enrich and enhance education...

Martyn Overy

http://www.webschool.org.uk

http://www.openschool.org.uk

http://www.openschool.org.uk/support/

http://www.mywebschool.org/postnuke/


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In reply to Mark Berthelemy

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Don Quixote -

Hi all,

I think it is always useful to reread about the principles and benefits of open source software:

http://www.opensource.org

http://www.opensource.org/docs/products.php (some concrete examples...)

And we all know that if a discussion comes to the issue of money, it generally gets a bit more complicated and harsh wink

Let me try to express some of my (personal) thoughts about the money issue in the open source world...

Among the many other advantages (see the links) of OS there are imo some specific aspects dealing with the money issue:

No licence fee and source is open and may be changed, distributed etc. (under one of the licencing models):

  • This forces the creator of software to provide good enduring services and the product has to be of a real value for the user. In other words, he doesn't just sell you a licence and then hits the road leaving you alone with the product.
  • It prevents the creator of software from "filling his pockets". He can't just benefit from a previous effort and squeezing out users / customers because of proprietary code / standards. He has to provide a "continuing product". Otherwise - because of the open source and the right for anybody to change and extend the code - there will be others who will fork the product and go their own way.
  • Users don't have to pay for each little new feature, since they are free to contribute it themselves to the product. This is far more efficient than in the "closed source model". (You could probably fill a book about this efficiency issue... or just look at the moodle community here!)

I don't think that as a user of open source software you can expect others to work just for free for you. Fortunately slavery is mostly passed nowadays. (In fact, they did reappear in the closed source models, where the users / customers became slaves of the software firms. No need to bring any examples here...)

Now, when comparing these points with moodle, I have to say that this is a perfect example of an open source project. Each of the benefits for the users hold. And I really hope that Martin can make his living from it, because we all benefit from him being fully working for.... us.

Btw, I am hosting at moodle.com. And if Martin helps me with something on Sunday morning (!!) then I really don't expect that he does it for free. And if I consider the whole package and this support... then this is unbeatable!

Greetings

Andreas

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In reply to Don Quixote

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Martyn Overy -

Goodness me..... how did we ever get to this point?  Sounds like this  thread has now gone straight to an in-depth discussion/lectures of  the definition  of  Open Source.  As far as I can tell, nobody  in this thread has suggested, or hinted , that Open  Source= No cost=Free Support.

Going back to the original question, nobody has really addressed the issue. Does a large school imply a dedicated server package?  If so, is this what Martin is offering through Moodle.com?  Even if  schools did opt for  a dedicated server hosting, how can administrators be convinced it would not have a tendency to crash if  n  students are online. In fact, is there an  answer ( I suspect not)  for  Moodle+n students = too much for a given server.  I suspect that hosting companies would not be able to evaluate the situation until it has reached critical mass.

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In reply to Martyn Overy

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Don Quixote -

hmm, ... I was referring to the "hear, hear" comment from Ray as an answer to the posting from Mark...

Maybe I misinterpretted this "hear, hear" taking it in its German meaning.

Sorry for that. May this thread find its origins again wink

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In reply to Darren Smith

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Don Quixote -

It might be the best way to choose a dedicated server as it will give you more control, flexibility and independence than a (shared) hosting service. Maybe you can team up with some other UK schools and setup a joint infrastructure.

I am currently thinking about such approaches (for math departments).

Some threads discussing the system requirements:

http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=5859

http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=3466

http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=6284

(Sorry, about UK providers for dedicated hosting I am not informed)

And, if it doesn't hurry too much I will post my experiences in the upcoming weeks...

Greetings

Andreas

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In reply to Don Quixote

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Martyn Overy -
OK , the picture is becoming quite clear now. Moodle eats wink servers for breakfast, and the hosting providers will not admit that! Sooner or later, at this rate of expansion, it will disappear from the Fantastico package.

So, to any educational establishments out there wishing to get serious about VLE, then go for a dedicated server package. Otherwise, just tinker away on a virtual server with a few of your students, and just dream about what could have been...

As a half-way house you could consider 'Super-Virtual Server' package.
However, I am sure purists or those with the required capitation/funding for a dedicated server would dismiss this....

Super Virtual Dedicated Server

» Maximum 20 accounts/server Super Virtual Dedicated Server
» 5 GB of disk space
» 50 Gb of Bandwidth
» Unlimited POP3/FTP
» Comprehensive control panel
» 40+ one-click ValueApps, including Tomcat 4.1.18, Java Server Pages 1.2, Java Servlets 2.3, PHP 4.3.0 w/ GD 2, Python 2.2.2, PostgreSQL 7.3.2, & the GNU Compiler
» Unlimited websites, domains, & sub-domains




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In reply to Martyn Overy

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Don Quixote -

Martyn, did you notice that this provider is located in the US and therefore doesn't solve Darren's problem... (he needs a UK provider).

And if you can host in the US, then I would rather take a "real" dedicated server and not a "shared dedicated" (strange word isn't it wink). I don't think that with a "shared dedicated" server you will have less sys admin work to do than with a real one. And for the same price you can get at http://www.valueweb.com/dedicated/dedicated-servers/redhat.htm your own baby.

But the dominant costs will nevertheless be the system administration. These costs you can't ignore when considering a productive system.

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In reply to Don Quixote

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Martyn Overy -
Andreas,

Thanks for the information. I am aware that the 'solution' is in the USA. however, I did suggest an earlier solution to payments (credit card+reimbursement from school). Many schools are now realising that, if they are to get up to speed with online developments, they need to appoint  full-time E-Learning Managers. Control is always best done from source.... at least from experience.
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In reply to Darren Smith

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Mark Pelling -
Did you ever get a reasonable answer? My question would be is 100Mb big enough for the MySQL database, otherwise we'll have to find a way for our LEA to 'host' a server on the 'network' also what about pupils downloading files what bandwidth/ storage should we be considering? Also if you are rolling it out to a large school how are you managing usernames, passwords etc. Is it a hugh batch upload or do pupils register themselves. What about staf input, how have you organised the creation the 'departmental' sections or is just for one area? So Many questions smile Thanks Mark
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In reply to Mark Pelling

Re: UK host for a large school?

by Darren Smith -
Sorry for the delay.

I didn't get the answer I was really after so I upgraded my account with www.supanames.co.uk to the (I think) premier host account.

Everything is OK but I do still get moments when I click on something or submit something and i get an internal server error. Hitting refresh (or back) keeps me logged in but returns me to my home page. I still haven't gotton to the bottom of this but everything else is fine.

We are also experimenting with moodle on one of our servers in the school which is where we are ultimately going.

Hope that helps

Darren
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