Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Visvanath Ratnaweera
Number of replies: 58
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This is a recurring question in the forums. Assume that a "mother" site has been duplicated and distributed. How could the mother site update the children as it develops? I mean, as more courses and content to existing courses are being added to the mother site? The assumption is that the child sites go on-line sporadically.

It was mentioned in the seminar Moodle Academy webinar "Moodle offline - Reaching marginalised communities" that Moodle HQ or a partner is working on this. https://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=wYeQW3WrFW0&t=2547s (remove the blank). It is available publicly?

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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

James Steerpike
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A Raspberry Pi preloaded with Moodle and a semester worth of content might be a solution. Update courses by posting sd cards at semester end if the internet access is down completely. However, in remote communities without internet, students are unlikely to have wifi enabled devices.
I suspect as internet access spreads, demand for such a service will decrease.
In reply to James Steerpike

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

James Steerpike
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Now I have read the transcript - (who wants to listen to a 50 minute video that could be summarised in a page or two?)

This seems to be built on a Raspberry PI with a powerbank and 2 terabytes of storage. (I had to check if I heard that right but in the discussion, they seemed to regard 8Tb as optimum). They mentioned $350 per unit but that does not include tablets or other devices for students. They have had up to 38 users at once, which in many places would be less than half the students in some classes.

The approach seems to be top down, with the teachers not given the power to correct mistakes or create their own courses. The analytics they discuss concerned students watching videos and it was mentioned there are no graded activities. The updates are to push more content down to the box and with users as diverse as Ukrainians, Cambodians and Kenyans, hard to see how a top down approach works.

Focusing more on hardware support and finding teachers who can create courses locally and train others would seem to be a better approach.
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In reply to James Steerpike

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Visvanath Ratnaweera
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I watched the video. Found it interesting. Thanks for the feedback, other readers will appreciate it. @all, we are talking about "Moodle offline - Reaching marginalised communities | Moodle Academy" YouTube/watch?v=wYeQW3WrFW0 (replace YouTube with its domain).
 
To the moderator: Probably "Teaching with Moodle" is the wrong forum. Do you mind shifting the discussion to the General developer forum?
 
The question is:
Assume that a "mother" site has been duplicated and distributed. How could the mother site update the children as it develops? I mean, as more courses and content to existing courses are being added to the mother site? The assumption is that the child sites go on-line sporadically.
 
According to the video at 42:30, https://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=wYeQW3WrFW0&t=2547s (remove the blank), Moodle HQ or a partner is working on this. Is it available publicly?
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

James Steerpike
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Developers need to understand the problem to be solved before coming up with a solution.
There are still parts of the world without internet but there is a catch 22 for providing an off the grid solution. Students in those areas will not have wifi capable phones and tablets so these must be supplied along with the Moodle server. There will be no locals capable of repairing devices and the teachers, unless trained recently in another area, will not be familiar with technology. The problems of the OPLC were the costs of the student device and the skill gaps in maintaining devices and training users. Where there is a population with internet capable devices, there will be the repair shops springing up to fix them and technically minded individuals to tinker with Moodle. However, this infrastructure is there because there is internet and an off the grid solution is not required.
I think those problems are insurmountable. Off the grid solutions may still be required for locations such as a remote mountain village but well resourced mountain villages are becoming rare.
In reply to James Steerpike

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Marcus Green
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"Now I have read the transcript -"

I flip between enjoying an engaging presentation (looking at you Mr Jenkins) and wanting to browse the summary in text format. Though I highly reccomend clicking and holding down the mouse on Youtube videos as it makes them run at 2 times standard speed.

Two Terabytes does seem rather a lot. With reference to the tablets or devices for students, that is the nature of the thing. 


I have been involved in the search for low cost reliable and predictable supplies of tablets for low resource areas. There a lot of variables you don't have to think about in places like the UK but there are some good solutions and the prices are tending down rather than up.

I'm not sure what you mean by 

"They have had up to 38 users at once, which in many places would be less than half the students in some classes.", What would you expect such a system to support?

" The analytics they discuss concerned students watching videos and it was mentioned there are no graded activities. "

The reference to analysing watching videos probably explains the large amount of disk space. I am dubious about both large amounts of videos and video analytics as essential to most areas of education.

As to a "top down approach" 

I could not agree more, Moodle was designed from the start to be for teachers and learners but there is always a tendancy for people in control to be more in control and so a broadcast approach can seem attractive. I am not convinced it is effective however. 

"Focusing more on hardware support "

If you don't need to store and show large amounts of video Moodle can be used on very low cost hardware. 

"and finding teachers who can create courses locally and train others would seem to be a better approach."

I agree but the cynic in me would suggest that doing that is less attractive that technology, analytics and video. 

This link shows a photo of my "off grid" MoodleBox solution 

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In reply to Marcus Green

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

James Steerpike
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I tried to set up a standalone system a couple of times, once using a Pi and then the original Linux netbook, the tiny Asus 501 Surf. As I had a spare router, both were connected by cable to the router. My decision to forgo the internet was to avoid the restrictive internet policies of my location.

Most of my classes were from mid 30 to 50 or so ( the solution must fit the conditions and these students numbers are often exceeded in some places) and I found both setups to be prone to dropping both me and the students. I found myself trouble shooting connections before working out an internet server was easier. With that, since my time in class was scarce spending time in class to get students online allowed me to actually teach and use Moodle for assessing progress through homework.

An additional problem I had with the pi was the lack of a display and keyboard. I had to connect through my phone and as sometimes I had often lost the connection, a proper shutdown in the 10 minutes between classes in different buildings was not always easy. Without technical knowledge, teachers may not understand what pulling the plug does or be able to fix corrupted databases.

If I was designing such a system, I would start with a refurbished laptop for teacher, usb sticks to transfer courses and hand me down phones for each student configured to run a web browser. However, the failure of One Laptop per Child (OLPC) initiative shows the problems of costs and maintenance makes this technology a non starter.
In reply to James Steerpike

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Marcus Green
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"However, the failure of One Laptop per Child (OLPC) initiative shows the problems of costs and maintenance makes this technology a non starter."
It is a salutory lesson for all technologists.

"With that, since my time in class was scarce spending time in class to get students online allowed me to actually teach and use Moodle for assessing progress through homework."

I spent 10 years in the classroom as a teacher and a big take away is that technology needs to work and it needs to work now. In much of the rest of my life 10 minutes where something doesn't quite work is OK. In the classroom not so much.

"An additional problem I had with the pi was the lack of a display and keyboard."
I posted about this on the MoodleBox forum as I quite like the new Pi 500 which is built into a keyboard and it has a low price (£84.60 for the 8GB model)

Just add screen....
But overall a solutions for my idea of the target users are that it  needs to be very "plug and play", which is not a common experience with the use of Moodle.

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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Marcus Green
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I am glad you posted about this Visvanath as it is a subject I have thought about a great deal since I first used MoodleBox around 2017.
In reply to Marcus Green

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Visvanath Ratnaweera
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As you see it is my subject too. Appreciate everybody's interest on the same. But my original question was different, it was about the syncing method, about a technology. So I made a new post, Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site? (II), in the General developer forum. Now this stage is open for discussion(s) on all the other aspects.
 
What I observe in moodle.org discussions and the MoodleBox Support forum is the overlap we have. I know your stream of Fosstodon posts, including https://fosstodon.org/@marcusgreen/111932284876927220. May be I should join Fosstodon.

To the moderator: With that I take back my earlier request to shift the discussion to the General developer forum. Not necessary now.
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Visvanath Ratnaweera
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Peculier! I wrote "May be I should join Fosstodon" and now read Come and Join Mastodon!
 
Generally, I am never for joining "cool" communication platforms or changing the communication channels. That breaks communication and fracture communities. I've had at least two bad experiences, one was bitter. (Now you see why I held on: 20 year warrenty - expired.) But communication is not about me, it needs at least two parties. 윙크
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Marcus Green
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"Generally, I am never for joining "cool" communication platforms"
You say that and yet you regularly post here < /humour> The thing I like about Mastodon is that it is federated, there is no "centre"
In reply to Marcus Green

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Visvanath Ratnaweera
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I may have posted these elsewhere:

Designing for mobile and offline environments | Moodle Academy
https://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=hwtkR0FncRM (remove the blank)

I found the course design, starting 13:00, very interesting.

What Moodle means for Developing Countries | MoodleMoot Global 2024
https://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=mq597db8ggw (remove the blank)

Warning: They are long. Watch only if you want. Please don't complain here about your time!

P.S. About communication channels: Discuss, where? On YouTube? In the moodle.org forums? On Mastadon?

In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Visvanath Ratnaweera
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In reply to Marcus Green

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Visvanath Ratnaweera
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Hi Marcus

I'm forwarding your post in the other (developer) discussion to this forum. Please continue the discussion here in this thread!

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Moodle in English -> Forums -> General developer forum -> Off-the-grid
Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site? (II)
https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=465449#p1868606
Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the
mother-site? (II)
by Marcus Green - Sunday, 26 January 2025, 9:30 AM (CET)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
It would be useful to define what "duplication" means and who is best placed to implement it. I have thought a great deal about this since I first came accross MoodleBox back in 2016, but people closer to the problem are better placed than me to come up with solutions, anyway ... 

I can think of at least three meanings

Broadcast new

If it means new content gets broadcast from the main system to the client systems, e.g. here is the 2025 version of the basic maths course it can be straightforward. For example *mbz files are sent and installed.

Broadcast and update existing

If duplication means the broadcast updates existing content on the client system then that is problematic as how do you deal with the changes that may have been made to the client system. It is possible to imagine some sort of locking of content on the client but that seems problematic.

Broadcast new material and synchronize student content with the main system

Don't try it.

Update: Re reading the topic of this thread it looks like it means syncingback from the clients to the main site
---------------------------------------------------------------------
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Visvanath Ratnaweera
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Thanks for the listing!

To your question, what do I wish/hope for in terms of a solution: I work with different communities (some hints are in my profile). Off-the-grid Moodle is one of the questions that comes up. It would be nice if I could say, "Look these solutions are already available. They cover these scenarios." What I am doing is collecting that information now, before I'll be asked the next time.

This has been going on for a couple of years. So no great urgency to find _the solution_ right now. I started this thread because the Moodle Academy and MoodleMoot presentations linked above show that people are working on it. If any of them are Open Source, why re-invent? You are a developer, so you are very welcome to publish your solution (to your own problem)!
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Marcus Green
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"Look these solutions are already available."
There are no solutions that alre already available, and I doubt there will be in the near future. One of the things that could change that is funding.

Visvanath: what do you wish/hope for in terms of a solution, what is the problem you want to solve?
In reply to Marcus Green

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Visvanath Ratnaweera
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Marcus, sorry to disappoint you. No, funding available. Not even a clear "definition" of the needs. Pl. reread my previous post: https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=465418#p1868615.
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Marcus Green
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I have read your post and I could see any detail of what you wish or hope for in terms of a solution. Could you give some detail on the problem you want to solve?
In reply to Marcus Green

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Visvanath Ratnaweera
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Because I am not solving a particular problem, rather collecting any available solutions to a whole class of problems. I quote: I work with different communities (some hints are in my profile). Off-the-grid Moodle is one of the questions that comes up.
 
I appreciate your enthusiasm. If you ever happen to solve one (non-trivial) scenario please do report your solution (if available to the public without me or my community bringing you or your employer funds).
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Marcus Green
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"Off-the-grid Moodle is one of the questions that comes up."
What approaches would you hope for to address the issue of "Off the grid" Moodle?

I am specifically enthuseastic about "Off the grid" Moodle but I would like to know more details of what people want especially those who have asked questions about it like yourself.

"I appreciate your enthusiasm. If you ever happen to solve one (non-trivial) scenario please do report your solution (if available to the public without me or my community bringing you or your employer funds)."

What is your preferred model to fund Moodle development?

In reply to Marcus Green

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Visvanath Ratnaweera
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> What approaches would you hope for to address the issue of "Off the grid" Moodle?
>
> I am specifically enthuseastic about "Off the grid" Moodle but I would like to know more details of what people want especially those who have asked questions about it like yourself.
 
I understand. I hope, I made it clear that currently I don't have a particular off-the-grid Moodle scenario waiting for a solution. I'm just collecting the available solutions when I'll be asked the next time.
 
Did you search the web (forums) for other people's needs. As I've mentioned earlier, the Hardware and performance forum used to get such requests and also the MoodleBox forum has a few. 
 
If you don't find any convincing idea why don't you program for the scenario which you think most sensible?
 
> What is your preferred model to fund Moodle development?
 
You overestimate my marketing skills. If I had any, I wouldn't have written, "without me or my community bringing you or your employer funds". (I know, how it sounds. 슬픈 )
 
But do not despair. Moodle.org has a strong marketing department. I remember seeing terms like vouchers, Boogle Meetings, GA4 coming up recently. [Whispering: Don't want to elaborate more. This thread should not have the same fate as the last one.]
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Marcus Green
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"I'm just collecting the available solutions when I'll be asked the next time."

I was hoping you might have ssome ideas from your collecting.

MoodlebBox is my first thought on enabling off grid Moodle. Because it provides a single hardware/software target it is easier to come up with synchronisation solutions.  To pick one example if rsync was part of the solution it could be incorporated in a flavour of MoodleBox and you could be confident the software would be available. I have been pleasently surprised at the performance of MoodleBox from my (minimal) testing and delighted to contribute a little code tool_moodlebox code that recognises MoodleBox running on the Raspberry Pi 16Gb.

In the 1990's I ran a dial up bulletin board so I have some familiarity with the issue of low bandwidth connections.

Could you clarify your comment
"if available to the public without me or my community bringing you or your employer funds"

Is that specifically about me and my employer or is it about a general approach to funding?
In reply to Marcus Green

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Visvanath Ratnaweera
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That historical anecdote might explain our affinity towards satellite solutions. I was FidoNet 170-something at the turn to the 1990. 윙크

With that let me try to formulate "my" version of a satellite system of Moodle nodes. It is not really my version, rather a brain dump of various discussions I had with others. What I did was to redact/reduc to a manageable proportion - the usual (uninformed) user comes with unrealistic expectations.

Here it goes:

Day 0: Birth of the Mother site
Between Day 0 and Day 1 Mother site gets content.

 ("content" is important. The users, who are administrators and content creators, don't appear in the child sites.)

Day 1: Birth of Child 1

Mother site bar users gets cloned in to Child 1. The (local) Admin of the Child 1 gets its own admin password.

Between Day 1 and Day 2: 

-- Mother site gets more content added

-- Child site, gets users, they get enrolled, take part in courses.

--> Simplification: Don't change content. If there's need send the wishes to the admins of the mother site.

--> Simplification: Don't delete courses.

-> Simplification: Don't add new courses

Day 2: Mother and Child 1 connect
Child 1 checks out

-- Child 1 gets cloned in the main server (separate Moodle instance)

Child 1 checks in

-- The new content in Mother site gets added to the Child

-- The changed content in the child site gets overwritten

Between Day 2 and Day 3: 

Same as between the Day 1 and Day 2.

Day 3: Mother and Child 1 connect
Child 1 checks out

-- Child 1 overwrites its copy in the main server

Child 1 checks in

-- identical to Day 2

Days 4, 5,.. are repetitions of Days 2 and 3 for the respective connecting sites.

Some thoughts:

This is from a user perspective. I haven't put much thought in to the technical challenges, or impossibilities.

The steps which are not in the core should ideally be available as local plug-ins. There should be no direct manipulations on the OS or DBMS.

MoodleBox sounds like a good candidate for the child. But the concept is not limited to that: LAMP, MAMP, XAMPP,.. are thinkable. But designing with one of them in mind will definitely simplify support.

Depending on the complexity further simplifications may be necessary. For example which activities are allowed. Oh yes, the child sites don't install additional plug-ins on their own.

I notice that, I didn't write the aims this syncing achieve for the administrators (at the mother site). I think the experienced Moodles see them. If wished, I can formulate some in a second version. 

Now about funding:

Is that specifically about me and my employer or is it about a general approach to funding?

I don't live in a monastery! If somebody implements some variation of this with some outside funding, that is completely up to him/her. What I said was, our community has no funds, so far our "funds" were in kind, people contribute what they can, material and/or time - no bucks, no quids. 윙크

In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Marcus Green
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That is exactly the sort of possibilities I was looking for, excellent. I like the term satellite as well.

"This is from a user perspective. I haven't put much thought in to the technical challenges, or impossibilities."

It is good to start with the ideal solution ...

I have had a lot of conversations  with Dan  (his post is after this) over  the last few years so I reccomend his link and I will re-read your sequence of ideas. This was me in the days of 28.8kbs connectivity

 24 May 1991, nodelist.144: ,610,The_PC_Extra's_Fun_Factory,Redfern_NSW,Marcus_Green,61-2-699-****,9600,V32,CM,XC

In reply to Marcus Green

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Visvanath Ratnaweera
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Hi Marcus

You wrote:

That is exactly the sort of possibilities I was looking for, excellent. I like the term satellite as well.

Astronomy and space travel are well-liked by the geeks. But what is the term for the Mother Site? Mother ship? Is that gender-compatible?
미소

This is from a user perspective. I haven't put much thought in to the technical challenges, or impossibilities.

It is good to start with the ideal solution ...

I wouldn't call it the "ideal solution" in the sense that it covers everything. The picture the (uninformed) administrators have is a swarm of little Moodles fed (content) by a Mother squid and they in turn feed (data) the Mother.

For those who are new to the subject: Every time Moodle creates a new entity, a user, a document, an assignment, it asks the DB for a unique ID. There is no way to coordinate those IDs between two sites. So the same ID will be used for different things in different Moodle instances - making a merging near impossible. 

I know Dan from the MoodleBox community. In fact he visited (video conference) our community an year ago and gave us inputs on OER.

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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Marcus Green
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Parent?
In reply to Marcus Green

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Visvanath Ratnaweera
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I don't know. I think my English teacher at school used it in plural. The term was kind of "collective", neutral. If singular, what is it? Yin or Yang?
미소

Seriously. These terms are cultural. In your "definition" use the term that is right for you.

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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Daniel Thies
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Hello Visvanath,

If I were going to synchronize a lot of sites like that I would use existing code management techniques as much as possible to accomplish the task rather than creating new tools. I would create a branch in a Moodle git repository, and create a local plugin in that branch that has an upgrade script. Whenever you want to add something to all the sites, you would make a backup of the content and add a few lines of code to the upgrade script to restore the backup during the upgrade process. Clients then just have to pull from the git repository when they connect and go through the upgrade process. The upgrade process will prevent inconsistencies from developing.

I do not have public examples, but have worked on a similar system before. Faculty might prefer to just make changes on a main Moodle and let them propagate, but with a large number of client sites, you need a process to review changes and test them before releasing. PHP skills to do this are minimal, but it requires disciplined administration.

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In reply to Daniel Thies

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Marcus Green
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Not inventing new stuff is generally a good strategy.
In reply to Daniel Thies

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Visvanath Ratnaweera
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Hi Daniel

What you say makes absolute sense. Note that:
a) I have formulated the needs from a users' perspective, avoiding what (new) tools will be necessary.

b) I have simplified the needs to keep any new tools to a minimum.

Since I am not the immediate user I can bend the needs as I wish. But others, Dan and Marcus(?), if your needs differ, please don't hesitate to submit your needs here.

Talking of simplifying the needs, I think my previous formulation is too complicated. Will rewrite it soon and post it as a reply to that post (linked above).
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Marcus Green
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I have no direct needs, it is more a case of wanting good solutions to be available.
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Daniel Thies
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I just read Dan's article above is very helpful, and you are correct I should not jump so quickly to a solution without understanding the problem.

Looking at your description (and word struggle with Marcus), I think you are making an assumption about the mothership that may not be valid. Are you assuming teachers have reliable access to a central site. In Dan's case where content is translated into local languages. The teachers and translators could be dispersed and not have continuous internet.

My own interest is my experience teaching at a small university in rural U.S. A substantial number of students commuted and had no home internet. I had intermittent cell coverage where I was staying. I had a laptop with Moodle installed and would create activities offline and sync them with the institutional instance when I went to campus.

Is it correct to assume, you would only be propagating asynchronously from mother ship to the satellite? Or is the mother ship update asynchronously or content propagated between satellites?

In reply to Daniel Thies

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Visvanath Ratnaweera
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Hi Daniel

Yeah, through Dan's article, Sopala: An Innovative Model for K-12 Education, I came across these interesting information: https://sopala.org/how-sopala-works/ and https://sopala.org/kiwix/ among other information, https://moodle.com/news/sabier-moodlecloud-literacy-in-africa/, for example. Hoping to see more details in his sub-thread.
 
Now Marcus has left the boat after the "word struggle" I (we) are free to define the rules of the game.
 
So I would say, the teachers, translators, their access to the Internet and local sites (second para): In my (imagined) model, teachers are those who conduct the teaching on-site - in-person with the support of the satellite (off-the-grid) Moodle instances. The other "teachers", translators, educators,.. are in fact, content creators and administrators who are different from the on-site teachers earlier. The main (technical) difference being, these content creators and administrators have Internet connections and they build the mother ship. When the mother ship transfer content to the satellites no user accounts go with them.
 
The scenario, the teacher (the only one) creating content in his laptop when connected to the Internet (for reference, download content) and carry the laptop to a class where there is no Internet (third para) is known to me. It is a variation of the sneakernet. That is not what I am talking about.
 
Finally, "Is it correct to assume, you would only be propagating asynchronously from mother ship to the satellite?" Correct. Only thing, I haven't said whether the propagation is a push or a pull. That is still open, resp. the person who solves this problem can choose.
 
"Or is the mother ship update asynchronously or content propagated between satellites?" No! The satellites don't talk to each other. It is difficult enough connecting to the mother ship. Note that there is a flow of communication back to the mother ship. People there want to know what is happening in the sites. Since merging sites is a huge technical problem, my proposal was for the main site to keep a copy, a shadow, of each satellite. Versioning is not necessary. Every time the upward communication means to overwrite the shadow with the latest state of the satellite.
 
I have the feeling, I am talking of something very simple, people expect something much more sophisticated and ask me all sorts of difficult questions (which I've avoided through simplification).
 
P.S. Found an old discussion, see How to replicate in moodle? Probably that is where the idea was born.
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Daniel Thies
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Hi Visvanath,

I think I understand your model, but believe it is dated and a little too colonialists. For small language groups, the best translator is not at the central site, but closest to the student. They are the ones that will catch mistakes and understand when students are having a cultural issue with lesson and need extra help or changes. Ideally they should be able to create content and have reviewed and propagated in a timely manner. Of course they could try to email the central site, but that is not efficient with asynchronous internet.

That may seem more complex than your model, but it is not. Simplification should be unnecessary if you have adopt a peer model. I suggested git as an example for a reason. It is a more modern framework which allows for asynchronous replication with or without a central site. Each repository is technically equal although in practice there is usually one official repository and changes are merged there and propagated to the others.

It is more of a federated approach. Maybe we really should join Mastodon 미소 

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In reply to Daniel Thies

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Visvanath Ratnaweera
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Hi

I don't think, you understood my model. The teachers ("those who conduct the teaching on-site") can not handle Git workflow. Even if they could, Moodle content is unsuitable to check in to Git and to develop collaboratively (to my knowledge). On top of that, we don't expect them to have even Internet connectivity!

Maybe it is easier to explain what they have, or we assume them to have, and what they don't have.

Must have:
- a PC with a large screen

- electricity to power the PC.
 
- a table, a chair (for the teacher) and two stools (for two kids, two more can stand behind the teacher)
 
Nice to have:
- a satellite Moodle networked (wired or wireless LAN) with the PC
 
Even nicer:
- a couple of tablets (which can network to the above LAN)
 
The ultimate:
- a couple of laptops with the same education programs installed as the PC
 
This is how the teaching happens:
Must operation:
- The teacher takes up to 4 kids to the PC and demonstrate what they should do with its installed programs. (There are mountains of education programs on Linux)
 
- Those kids follow the instructions at the same PC, taking turns in teams of two.
 
Nicer:
- The teacher shows the kids how to access the on-site Moodle at the PC
 
- The kids access the on-site Moodle at the same PC
 
Even nicer:
- The teacher shows the kids how to access the on-site Moodle on a tablet
 
- The kids access the on-site Moodle on a tablet
 
The ultimate:
- The kids practice with laptops on their installed programs 
 
Don't have, therefore not necessary:
- Internet connectivity
 
- Computer skills like making (electronic) content, Git workflow for developing/sharing content, not to mention any kind of programming - not even HTML and CSS.
 
- a computer lab resp. the classroom to be equipped with any kind of hardware. Cannot afford. The demonstrations happen in a small corner, waiting space, in the administration building. (The table, chair and stools above will be there.) The administration staff of the school will look after the hardware in that corner, specifically the PC and if available the satellite Moodle and tablets.
 
I know, it sounds "colonial". But, mind you, this is not imagination. We work with a few schools like this. I don't want to publish information, photos(?), on the Web without hurting their (our) dignity. If you or anybody else is keen, pl. contact me privately.
 
[Side topic Mastodon] I joined Mastodon. See https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=465411#p1870062. Yes, it is a good place for word struggles, the hit-and-run. Is there also something that can be called a discussion, like the one we two are conducting right now. So far I saw people calling, at best "look at this interesting/great thing", at its worst, "look at me, what I am doing". And everybody clap and/or point to others or self doing related or unrelated "interesting/great things". And it goes on. They are not discussions as I understand them.
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Daniel Thies
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Thanks Visvanath,

I do agree on Mastodon. While traditional social media provides a big platform to behave like a jerk, Mastadon provides a federated way to use open software to behave like a jerk. It may be a better technology, but does not prevent users behaving like a jerk.

On the other hand Moodle was created to do more valuable things like the mod you are describing. I understand that the sites are very minimal. I understand no one in the field is consciously going to set up a git repo. I am only assuming that for networking you have a carrier with a laptop who goes to different sites and syncs the local instances with the laptop and at other times the central site. I just think it should always be bidirectional, and that should not be difficult to do.

When a local site is connected, the local Moodle will receive updated content. However, there is not any reason you would not copy some data to the laptop to verify that the content has been accessed and provide analytic information. In principle whole Moodle activities could backed up and returned to the central site. In principle local content may be added and distributed. An example activity might be having each site create a news article that would appear in a newsletter later circulated among the sites.

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In reply to Daniel Thies

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Visvanath Ratnaweera
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Hi Daniel

Now you know, what I am talking about. It is so rudimentary, from the stone age, very hard to visualize for us sitting comfortably with a great laptop at our finger tips and the first world network coverage. One point though to avoid a wrong impression: We are working with those schools at the "must have" level, i.e. a Linux PC with a good screen running education software locally on Linux. We don't have immediate plans for the the other, nice-to-have, levels. The off-site Moodle is just a thought, a possible use-case, that materialized during this rather long exchange the presentation in the OP initiated. Exciting for a technophile but not without its challenges.
 
Yeah, to your proposal, use of sneakernet, sending somebody to the sites rather than trying to bridge the gap with the WAN, sure it is an alternative - with certain advantages and also disadvantages. The big advantage is the lesser dependence on technology, i.e. not only network coverage but also training the local admin. On the other hand, sending somebody requires logistics, and the time of a qualified person, which we can't ask to spend free. So far we manage with voluntary engagement, no money involved. Healthier for me. But who knows? Right now I am interested in the technical part, I think this Tim's post (main discussion linked earlier) puts the foundation. 
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

James Steerpike
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I have been a volunteer teacher in a school lacking electricity (albeit some time ago) so I follow this with interest. I have also been doing some reading up on an  ILO Report on Rural Teaching. One of the problems they highlight is class size, with 60 to a hundred pupils not unknown in the rural areas of some countries due to lack of trained teachers. A Raspberry Pi could get Moodle to these schools but the problem of giving students the ability to use Moodle remains.
The distribution map posted some time ago shows the opportunity for Moodle to expand. Australia, with a relatively tiny population, has twice as many registered Moodle sites as the Philippines and nearly as many as India. Cell phones are widespread in these Asian  countries as is technically competent support  so Moodle could be used to replace inadequate or missing textbooks. Perhaps this may be a more fruitful area to help under resourced teachers.
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In reply to James Steerpike

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Mary Cooch
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Hello everyone. Great discussion. I am moving it to the Lounge as I feel it covers various topics and would fit well there.
In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: Hide-and-seek on moodle.org forums!

Visvanath Ratnaweera
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Mary,

I started this discussion in the Teaching with Moodle forum, for a reason. Suddenly "lost" it. Thanks to the forum mails found it in the General help forum. Wrote the moderator a message two days ago why and the discussion is about teaching in remote places, therefore I still believe that it belongs to the Teaching with Moodle forum.

Then "lost" it again, today. Again went back to my mailbox and now find it in the Lounge! I never had a hide-and-seek game like this on moodle.org, ever. Every time losing all the ratings as useful - now beginning with the "Coolness" kind or ratings. I am rethinking my opinion on Mastodon (final para) - moodle.org doesn't seem to be better.
 
Mary, if you think Teaching with Moodle is not the right place, Hardware and performance forum is OK with me. It used to be the place where "offline" or "distributed" Moodle came up. Lounge, our "all the world" social chatter? Definitely not.
 
@others, FYI, I am not available to discuss this further in the Lounge , in case you wonder why I don't reply.

In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Hide-and-seek on moodle.org forums!

Mary Cooch
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Hello Visvanath. I moved it from Teaching with Moodle to General Help (out of hours) because I feel the topic covers more than just teaching - it is more general. However, when I saw your report to moderator this Sunday morning I realised it's probably not best placed in General Help either, since it is not a problem requiring help. Although I do personally think the Lounge is a good place for a such a broad discussion, I am moving  it back to Teaching with Moodle so that everyone keeps their rating - you made a good point about that Visvanath. Sorry for the bumpy ride. As our Forums code of conduct includes respecting the decisions of the forum moderators, I'm confident that will be acceptable.
In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: Hide-and-seek on moodle.org forums!

Visvanath Ratnaweera
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Mary, I know the code of conduct. That is why I warned: "@others, FYI, I am not available to discuss this further in the Lounge , in case you wonder why I don't reply."
In reply to James Steerpike

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Marcus Green
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Excellent post James. I think there is a case for RaspberryPi/MoodleBox and other solutions. It is very hard for people like myself with a well resourced life to appreciate the limitations of some of the places that are referred to in that ILO report.
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Daniel Thies
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I thought you were conducting some experiments with intermittent Internet connectivity in the forums so we can test the model.

I watched more of the Moodle Academy video, and they reported working on returning usage data to government or project administration. The project Tim commented on is also about returning quiz results to the main site.

I think that there are a lot of scenarios where feedback would be essential. It would by good to at least have a plan to implement it even if not a must have.

In reply to Daniel Thies

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

James Steerpike
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Before you have a solution you need to define the problem.

First, who are these off-the-grid sites? Possibly an Australian outback town or a Canadian fishing village? Not many areas in developed countries lack internet by now. Do we really mean rural schools in the poorer areas of the world?   Aren't intermittent connectivity and off the grid, well resourced and impoverished different problems?

How is Moodle going to be used in an impoverished school? Is there even a point in having Moodle in a classroom where Moodle is used for only the one classroom screen because they is no tablets for students? How can you train and support  teachers to use a LMS when many will have never used the internet? 

What is the point of synchronizing? Textbooks are printed, go out and are used for years. Homework exercises and written work in school books are marked by a teacher and grades given. Why can't a curriculum loaded Moodlebox be dispatched once and used without further updates

In reply to James Steerpike

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Marcus Green
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"Aren't intermittent connectivity and off the grid, well resourced and impoverished different problems?"
I suspect there is significant overlap.

"Before you have a solution you need to define the problem."
There are lots of problems and I have some problems/solutions I define as a personal thought experiment..
"What is the point of synchronizing?"
That is a good question and my personal solution is for rare to never synchronisation. In fact I just thought of "rare to never" and I quite like it.
You can see some alternative to books content distribution links here
https://internet-in-a-box.org/

"How can you train and support teachers to use a LMS when many will have never used the internet? "
Horses for courses, there will be places where people are hungry for it, there will be places where it will be incomprehensible and not used.

" Why can't a curriculum loaded Moodlebox be dispatched once and used without further updates"
A version that shipped with onboard curriculum seems highly desirable and would require significantly less effort that attempts at any form of synchronisation. Teachers might like the idea of a curriculum that does not change.

Update:"where it will be incomprehensible and not used." That could be a rich source of humour.

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In reply to Daniel Thies

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Visvanath Ratnaweera
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Hi Daniel

About my experiments: 

Quoted from https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=465418#p1870244:

One point though to avoid a wrong impression: We are working with those schools at the "must have" level, i.e. a Linux PC with a good screen running education software locally on Linux. We don't have immediate plans for the the other, nice-to-have, levels. The off-site Moodle is just a thought, a possible use-case, that materialized during this rather long exchange the presentation in the OP initiated. 

So a thought, since I know places first-hand that would profit. But as others are pointing out, not an easy job.

About bi-directional information transfer:

From the center to the satellites is obvious. The question whether one-time or repeatedly is being argued. From satellites to the center is even more arguable. As you pointed out, there are use cases. Others say, No. Admittedly, this direction is technically more challenging. With my usual Linux admin work, also managing Moodle and actively participating in the MoodleBox forum and testing, albeit in different, first-world, scenarios, I was thinking of a simplified work-flow. I don't think it is a bad idea. You see the others here are having their own work-flows. So this simplified work-flow could still be useful as a greatest common divisor for many.

Yeah, the challenge is exciting for the technophile. Not my top priority - you know where it is [1] - but who knows.

[1] How to clean up a site with massively duplicated question categories?

In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Marcus Green
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My personal target for low resource technology hardware is funding for a relatively recent raspberry pi and devices to access it, typically android phones or tablets. Then I have a personal debate as to should I target something better than a standard microSD card as they are not robust in the long term. Access to power may/will be an issue that needs to be considered.

In terms of Internet access I target something between no access after delivery or possibly some very intermittant access, e.g. some number of months.

In my few discussions with people who have direct access to these scenarios they pointed to the issues of robustness, e.g. ingress of moisture and dust, which was not something I had considered previously.
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In reply to Marcus Green

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

AL Rachels
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"a standard microSD card as they are not robust in the long term" - I really agree with that statement. I hate to think of the number of microSD's I've had go bad on me. 

Have you considered a Raspberry Pi5 with a Geekworm X1001 PCIe to M.2 HAT Key-M NVMe SSD PIP PCIe Peripheral Board for Raspberry Pi 5 Supporting M.2 2230/2242/2260/2280 SSD's, coupled with any size capacity Internal Solid State Hard Drive in one of those lengths? This particular HAT will take any of the four listed sizes and allow you to eliminate the microSD card, after the initial OS setup.

I already have two Raspberry Pi5's with 1TB capacity SSD's in the smallest size at 2230. I just yesterday, order two more RPi5's with the same model HAT's and SSD's at 2TB capacity and and the longer size of 2280.

Something even more convenient, is an Orange Pi5, that already comes with the needed socket on the bottom side of the board. I have 3 of them that will accommodate solid state drives of only the 2230 size, but any memory capacity you can find for sale in that physical size. That's because the SSD drive is mounted crosswise on the bottom of the board. The newer Orange Pi5 Max's only take the 2280 size because the mounting socket has been rotated 90° with only the longer length screw hold down at the rear edge of the board.

Both style of SBC's perform noticeably faster due to the faster performance of the SSD's compared to the standard microSD memory chips, plus the fact that all their other connections are new and faster versions that are now available. e.g. 2.4 GHz CPU, 16GB LPDDR5 RAM memory, Dual HDMI 2.1, WiFi 6E, Bluetooth 5.3, 2.5G network port, etc.

As for, "ingress of moisture and dust," I run all of my SBC's in open frame, dog-bone, towers that accommodate up to seven layers. The open frame allows for natural convection cooling and I easily go one to two years before I need to blow out the dust. Having seven Pi's in one tower makes it pretty convenient to build up a working cluster, but with a noticeable bottle-neck being the Ethernet connections between each SBC.

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In reply to AL Rachels

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Marcus Green
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I fight shy of the OrangePi because it has a reputation for not being as well supported as the Raspberry Pi and MoodleBox is aimed very directly at the Raspberry Pi. Having said that I constantly survey the alternatives and keep a very close eye on anything the wonderful Jeff Geerling says https://www.jeffgeerling.com.

With reference to very large classes I wonder if there is an issue with the maximum number of simulatenous connections. . I am hoping for a nice low cost case that will allow for an NVME HAT. All my research is self funded and out of interest rather than with a set of end users

I suspect moisture was a bigger threat than dust as this was 6 years ago in the Amazon. (river not aspirant monoplist)
In reply to Marcus Green

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

AL Rachels
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Yeah, I noticed the lack of good support for the Orange Pi as evidenced by the exorbitant amount of spam in their forums. I've ignored them as a source of help for months. When needed, each one pretty much accepts results that I get when I just Google, or DuckDuckgo, and try whatever I find. Since I have had good Moodle setups on them for months, Moodle is usually the only thing I have to touch.

I think a possible low cost, moisture resistant enclose could be made from a Tupperware like container. Make holes as needed for things like power and Ethernet, then hot glue around the cables. Also could 3D print you own. There are plenty of print files for them out there. Get one you like and modify the file to make extra room for whatever HAT you might use.

Like you, I watch and follow a lot of what Jeff Geerling puts online.
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In reply to AL Rachels

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Marcus Green
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I have researched various "Pelican box" and clones of them but they are relatively expensive for this sort of thing. I really like the idea of Tupperware/food sealing boxes and a hot glue solution as they have a low cost, are widely available etc.
In reply to Marcus Green

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Daniel Thies
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Actually replacing a microSD card on a regular basis might be a good way to keep the system up to date. A new microSD could be sent to users a few times a year that have a Moodle upgrade and course activity updates.
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In reply to Daniel Thies

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Visvanath Ratnaweera
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Yeah, that is the great advantage of the RPi based local "servers". A thumb-nail sized SD card has everything, the system, (optional) router, access point, web server and the LMS! I'm thinking of the MoodleBox.
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In reply to Daniel Thies

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Marcus Green
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Or "just boot" from the MicroSD and swap out some other form of storage. There is a lot to be said for sneakernet.
In reply to Marcus Green

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Visvanath Ratnaweera
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The postal service counts as sneakernet, right? Without some form of sneakernet the 2 TB the original group needs are unthinkable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?foo=bar&v=wYeQW3WrFW0&t=634s
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Off-the-grid Moodle sites which are capable of syncing with the mother-site?

Marcus Green
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Absolutely