The future of H5P Core version

The future of H5P Core version

by Christophe Coussement -
Number of replies: 19
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers

Hi group,

I asked the question on the H5P forum : what is the future of the H5P Core version? And I got a light disturbing answer from one of the most implied dev: otacke... (https://h5p.org/node/1343331)

We all know there are two concurrent versions of H5P in Moodle's world : H5P Core (the blue one) and H5P Plugin (the black one).

First of all, I read this blog post from 2020 by Falcon, H5P head : https://h5p.org/moodle-plugin-vs-moodle-core-vs-h5p-com. In which he stated that the OEM hub will not be implemented into the Core version! Falcon even warns that the core version will not be compatible anymore..., but gives no details on the planning or any reason for breaking things.

Quoting otacke, "because moodle HQ seems to have stated clearly that working on H5P in moodle core definitely has no high priority (support for H5P's resume feature would really be good to have) - so users of moodle's custom integration would be stuck in a dead end or someone would need to create means to migrate back to the plugin." Anyone here from HQ which could confirm or deny this ?

The point being, lot of my clients are confused and do not know where to develop there H5P activities in a durable way. And even if I wrote a book about using H5P, I do not know the answer right now!

Any information on this matter is most welcome, dear group!

Christophe Coussement

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In reply to Christophe Coussement

Re: The future of H5P Core version

by Oliver Tacke -
Hey, Christophe!

My comment is based on a quote of Martin Dougiamas that was spread during a Moodle User Association event in 2022. It was not public, so I am not aware if I am allowed to share it here, but the core message is that moodle HQ has no roadmap for further development or inclusion of H5P in moodle. That's what my statement about the low priority is based on.
The rest can be derived from Svein-Tore's post. If the Hub gets more purposes than initiating the editing process (e. g. also used for including sub content) and moodle does not include the Hub or finds a custom workaround, than one would not be able to further use content types that require those new Hub features.

Best,
Oliver
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In reply to Christophe Coussement

Re: The future of H5P Core version

by Christophe Coussement -
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Maybe Moodle HQ could reassure us?
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In reply to Christophe Coussement

Re: The future of H5P Core version

by Marie Achour -
Picture of Moodle HQ
Hello Christophe and the group,

Thank you for posting this query.

We at MoodleHQ remain committed to supporting H5P as a core activity in Moodle and regularly prioritise work to ensure that new versions of H5P work in Moodle. For example, we are currently working on this issue: https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-67789 and this issue: https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-76197 as key priorities at the moment.

I hope you find this response useful.
Marie
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In reply to Marie Achour

Re: The future of H5P Core version

by Oliver Tacke -

Hey Marie!

Thanks for your quick reply.

Is your reply also valid for when the H5P Hub is tied to how content types work? I assume that moodle HQ didn't include it in the first place for a reason.

And what about that statement from Martin around 6 months ago? How does it align with your reply?

I am really not here to argue, but it feels like getting "mixed signals".

Best,

Oliver 

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In reply to Marie Achour

Re: The future of H5P Core version

by Christophe Coussement -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers
Thank you Marie for shedding some light on the matter!

As Oliver asks, what about the integration of the OEM feature?

It would be great if I could tell my clients with certainty to toss the "black" H5P and only keep the "blue" one smile
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In reply to Christophe Coussement

Re: The future of H5P Core version

by Marie Achour -
Picture of Moodle HQ
Hi Christophe and Oliver - investigating the integration of the H5P Hub remains on our agenda (we have an open tracker for it here: https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-70925) however, we have had some issues progressing the work due to a lack of available information. Once we understand the feasibility of doing so we will be able to provide a richer update on the priority of the work and next steps. I hope this helps a little bit for now!
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In reply to Marie Achour

Re: The future of H5P Core version

by Oliver Tacke -

Hi Marie!

Thanks again!

I can only speak for myself, but I believe the original underlying question needs to be answered yet. You said:

"We at MoodleHQ remain committed to supporting H5P as a core activity in Moodle and regularly prioritise work to ensure that new versions of H5P work in Moodle."

while a report of one of the 2022 MUA events states:

""To the question of whether Moodle has a roadmap for continued inclusion or development of H5P within Moodle Core, he answers: “No, not really, sadly no'' to the reason why, he explained [...]".

That's not necessarily contradictory, but to be frank, pointing towards tickets that have been open for quite a while without progress do not look too promising to me. For instance, the "save content state" feature is really not hard to do even without having documentation. All the required code can be inspected easily - and there's precedence. Lumi has included that feature in their node.js port of H5P, I have included it in one of my client's custom platform.

That's just a side issue though.

One should, in particular, not confuse the H5P OER Hub with the H5P Hub. The former is a pool of openly licensed contents on a central server. The latter is the visual interface in H5P's editor. The access to the former is using the latter.

While moodle may lack documentation of the API to access the H5P OER Hub, one can easily derive it from the code of H5P Hub client on github. It's essentially two endpoints that one can call, one to get a list of all available contents, one to retrieve a specific content. One essentially doesn't need to know, however, if one uses the H5P Hub. The WordPress plugin does, for instance, and I have ported the integration of the H5P OER Hub connection without any documentation in a couple of days in my free time just by checking the implementation in the H5P plugin for Drupal and moodle.

So, the real deal is the H5P Hub though, regardless of whether it features access to the H5P OER Hub or not. The H5P Hub is what moodle HQ decided not to port to moodle's custom H5P integration, even though there's basically nothing to port. It's a piece of Javascript that just needs to be included. Moodle HQ replaced it by a plain pulldown menu. I fully understand that there may have been organizational reasons to do so (some feature duplication, H5P branding, etc.), but that was moodle HQ's decision.

Now, the H5P Hub is going to become more important. For instance, while it currently is only used to select the main content to create, in the future it will also be used to include sub-content from within content types. That makes sense for H5P, because one can get rid of crowded toolbars in Course Presentation or Interactive Video, one can upload content to be used as sub-content, and so on). Such a dependance on the H5P Hub would essentially mean that later versions of H5P content types would not work anymore if the H5P Hub is not used. That's the future of moodle's custom H5P integration is if nothing changes. One could potentially come up with workarounds for that, don't know, because this is currently not implemented anywhere yet, but this is the hot topic. The future of H5P in moodle's custom H5P integration.

Having the H5P OER Hub is just a goodie that essentially came for free if the H5P Hub was supported. And having the H5P Hub is no big deal, because it's a separate module for a reason that just needs to be hooked up to a platform and then one doesn't need to worry about it anymore. That is what Lumi did, for instance, but moodle HQ decided not to do.

Sorry, I know this got a long post, but this is really something that users worry about. It's not weighing H5P Group's H5P plugin against moodle's custom H5P integration (I have publicly stated in some other post here that I think the latter is superior except for some missing things). It's about not knowing whether betting on moodle's custom H5P integration today will yield (severe) problems in the future. That's what lead some people to not use it (there's a post about this on this forums) but rather live with some disadvantages that the H5P plugin for moodle has. And, obviously, this is something that bothers Christophe, too.


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In reply to Oliver Tacke

Re: The future of H5P Core version

by Gemma Lesterhuis -
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Hi Oliver, 
The save content state is currently in development: https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-67789 - though I can tell you that even though it is very user friendly/minded, it is a nightmare for those who reset courses. as you can see in my comment in the tracker. 

But I do agree on the concern that it seems that the impact the decission to have H5P part of core, is bigger then might be released in the beginning. 
I also think that your knowledge on this topic would be off great addition - and if you are able to fix this - might be something to push into a tracker? 

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In reply to Gemma Lesterhuis

Re: The future of H5P Core version

by Oliver Tacke -

Hi Gemma!

This thread is not about the save content state feature, and any H5P integration is welcome to add further features if required. The core of H5P is not really involved here, it's just a messenger between the H5P Integration that stores and retrieved tha data and a content instance that presents it to the user. Adding a switch to a moodle course in order to delete some database entries should not be too hard, even though given that moodle's custom integration doesn't necessarily use a 1:1 relationship between H5P content and a course will complicate things and probably require some extra tracking of what content is used where by whom.

This thread is also not about having H5P in core or not (Why not? It's good!) but about the integration of the H5P Hub that was not done. I don't know the reason for that. I don't really see technical obstacles (there's even a reference on how to do that for moodle in the H5P plugin for moodle), but can only speculate that there were organizational reasons not to do so in the first place.

Best,
Oliver

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In reply to Oliver Tacke

Re: The future of H5P Core version

by Gemma Lesterhuis -
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Hi Oliver

I am very much aware of what this tread NOT about "save content state" , I merely responded in that case to your statement: "that tickets have been open for quite a while without progress do not look too promising to me. For instance, the "save content state" feature " - which finally is making some progress! (as with other bugs, that seem to be fixed in 4.1) 

I am not here to discuss having H5P in core or not, I just think that in a topic about the future of H5P core version it's valid to discussion if the impact of integrating it was fully thought off.  Because as you discribed it perfectly: It's about not knowing whether betting on moodle's custom H5P integration today will yield (severe) problems in the future. That's what lead some people to not use.... 

Therefore I am just wonder if Moodle HQ has by example dedicated time for Moodle HQ developers to continiously fixing bugs/regressions or what ever comes to the table in the furture (h5P hub). Or that this integration is mostly relying on community developers, as more modules in Moodle LMS core do. 

- Gem




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In reply to Gemma Lesterhuis

Re: The future of H5P Core version

by Oliver Tacke -

Aaah, got it now about your hint to the save content state feature, sorry and thanks!

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In reply to Oliver Tacke

Re: The future of H5P Core version

by Joseph Rézeau -
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Hi Oliver,

Thanks for contributing to the discussion. For Moodle end-users (i.e. H5P content creators aka teachers) the whole matter of using H5P activities within Moodle is too complicated. They have to choose between 2 different plugins, the H5P contributed plugin (the black icon) and the H5P integrated in Moodle core, residing in the Content bank (the blue icon). If they choose the core plugin, they must create their H5P activity in the Content bank first, then integrate it in their course, which is not obvious nor user-friendly. The relative merits of each plugin have already been discussed here, so I won't add to that.

Now we are discussing a technical matter, which concerns Moodle sites admins and which end-users do not necessarily need to hear about. But again, the matter is complicated even for admins. One has to understand the differences between the following:

  • H5P.org vs H5P.com
  • H5P Hub vs H5P OER hub
  • H5P contents vs H5P sub-contents
In your post you provided some explanations which make such distinctions more clear, thanks. There is one point which I do not understand, you write:
"The H5P Hub is what moodle HQ decided not to port to moodle's custom H5P integration, even though there's basically nothing to port. It's a piece of Javascript that just needs to be included. Moodle HQ replaced it by a plain pulldown menu. I fully understand that there may have been organizational reasons to do so (some feature duplication, H5P branding, etc.), but that was moodle HQ's decision."

I use H5P on Drupal & Wordpress sites and also with Lumi, and I can see that the interface looks different to end-users when creating a new H5P activity. In Drupal & Wordpress and Lumi, we see the (familiar) screen (is that what you call "the H5P hub")?

In Moodle's Content bank, as you write, instead of that screen we see a dropdown list of available H5P contents.
To the end-user this does not make much difference, except that the "detailed screen" which is not available displays more information, and when clicking on the Details button for each content can lead to the examples page of h5p.org.

Now, the feature used by Moodle core H5P to download the H5P libraries is to be found in the Scheduled Tasks section of Site Administration, as seen below:

I had always thought that that scheduled task was the same as (or equivalent to) getting H5P contents/libraries from the H5P hub. If that is not the case, would you please explain how it is different?
Thanks,
Joseph

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In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: The future of H5P Core version

by Oliver Tacke -

Hi Joseph!

I fully agree with the situation being complicated. That was Christophe's original point.

And yup, when I refer to the H5P Hub, then I mean that visual interface (which fully named would be H5P Hub Client, see https://github.com/h5p/h5p-hub-client). Installing libraries via the H5P Hub or moodle's cron job is the same. They trigger the same action: They fetch the libraries from the H5P Hub server and let the core of H5P install it. That's not relevant for my point however. Installing libraries is nothing that the H5P Hub (client) is required for.

Again: the H5P Hub (client) is supposed to become more relevant for H5P content types to work (please see https://h5p.org/moodle-plugin-vs-moodle-core-vs-h5p-com from Christophe's original post). Quoting myself now from a previous post: "Now, the H5P Hub is going to become more important. For instance, while it currently is only used to select the main content to create, in the future it will also be used to include sub-content from within content types. That makes sense for H5P, because one can get rid of crowded toolbars in Course Presentation or Interactive Video, one can upload content to be used as sub-content, and so on). Such a dependance on the H5P Hub would essentially mean that later versions of H5P content types would not work anymore if the H5P Hub is not used. That's the future of moodle's custom H5P integration is if nothing changes. One could potentially come up with workarounds for that, don't know, because this is currently not implemented anywhere yet, but this is the hot topic. The future of H5P in moodle's custom H5P integration."

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In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: The future of H5P Core version

by Christophe Coussement -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers

Hi Joseph,

You're right, the H5P model begins to become too complex for the end-users and I did note this fact in forum and when talking to clients. They are leaving the technology. Which is a pity with regard to the spirit of sharing behind it. But this appends: take by example the revolutionary programming language REBOL in the 2000's, created by Carl Sassenrath, which vanished into nothing because he chosed the wrong economical and technical model...

But back to your question : how is H5P Hub and H5P OEM Hub different? A picture is worth thousand words, so I made this composition :


I should say: same interface, but connected to different servers, one with H5P activities, the other one with shared contains.

Hopes this helps,

Christophe

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In reply to Christophe Coussement

Re: The future of H5P Core version

by scott hallman -
Hi Christophe
we still use black as its easier for staff to use and edit. We can see the better tracking and grading but using the content bank for staff is a step too far. in fact, I was thinking that I would start to migrate them all to blue this year. However, in further testing duplication in blue is a nightmare. Our customers often use the interactive book for learning content and set up a template for each topic ( we are trying to compete with KuraCloud for developing online content but for free to save the university money) then use the duplicate button to make a blank with the right tabs etc. If you try this in blue you just get another link to the same H5P. The only way to make a copy is to download and upload again to the bank and rename. That is another barrier to effective use for staff. Do you have any magical solutions to duplication or know of a development for staff to easily do this (like new button in the bank). Lots to be improved upon in blue for ease of staff use.

Also Joseph, thanks for the link to the blue black discussion. Shame there is no clear development plan on how to make blue easier to use for staff and pick up some of blacks better functionality
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In reply to Christophe Coussement

Re: The future of H5P Core version

by Christophe Coussement -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers
Thank you all for expressing your opinions and sharing precious informations!

My intent was not to start controversial discussions here, but get the right information by trying to reach the right peoples. I do care about H5P because I love the idea and the technology! After all, I wrote a book about it smile

To conclude, I should say that the only important question remaining is: "will Moodle HQ care for integrating the H5P Hub into the core version, and how soon?"

I hope Moodle HQ will express a clear statement about it, like: "OK community, we see you care, so we plan it for Moodle 4.3!" wink
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In reply to Christophe Coussement

Re: The future of H5P Core version

by Oliver Tacke -
Hey, Christophe!

Controversy is just a sign that there's need for something that might not be okay. I know I have my "German charme", but if I came across as rude, then I would like to say sorry to everyone here.

Cheers,
Oliver
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