No one seems to complain about the length of pages on...

No one seems to complain about the length of pages on...

by Dominique Bauer -
Number of replies: 22
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Hello,

I very rarely use Facebook but whatever. I just checked out someone's Facebook site. The page length is amazing. It never ends. Yet, no one seems to complain about the length of pages on Facebook.

However, as soon as a page is a bit long on Moodle or another LMS, we talk about the scroll of death!

My theory is that people are Facebooking for fun and wasting time. They therefore have no objection to a page being long. In addition, the content consists mainly of photos that require little intellectual effort to look at.

On the contrary, a page on Moodle generally contains information that users have to assimilate, which requires a much greater intellectual effort. So after a few screen scrolls, users get tired and look for a way out. The first solution available to them is to stop reading and leave the page, which they will do with a sense of accomplishment and a light heart if the page is short. If the page is too long, users feel trapped in it, while not being able to see the end of their pain.

One can wonder if only the pages should be short to keep the attention of the users. No doubt the paragraphs should also be short, and perhaps the entire course as well.

But is all this really serious? Students can't read long paragraphs on long pages? Strange generation where everything has to be done quickly, where focusing on one subject is a thing of the past.

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In reply to Dominique Bauer

Re: No one seems to complain about the length of pages on...

by Susan Jones -
First thought: *nobody* has to read a whole FB page so it can go on forever. People do have to read Moodle stuff for assorted reasons.

That said, yes, our culture has changed.
School used to methodically cultivate the long attention span; it doesn't any more. Those ed tech folks figured out what made the most money :P
Now, do people still cultivate it in other venues? Books? movies? Can people still get Totally Sucked Into A Different World For Hours?
HOw can we creatively subvert the negative aspects of the cultural trends and use it to foment creative, healthy learning? Answer in 2 paragraphs or fewer :P
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In reply to Susan Jones

Re: No one seems to complain about the length of pages on...

by Marcus Green -
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"School used to methodically cultivate the long attention span"
When?
In reply to Marcus Green

Re: No one seems to complain about the length of pages on...

by Susan Jones -
When (and where) I was goin' there.... but that was also when they were also teaching delayed gratification ;) (I remember author Richard Peck declaring 1968 was the beginning of societal decline b/c that's when schools stopped teaching delayed gratification...)
In reply to Susan Jones

Re: No one seems to complain about the length of pages on...

by Marcus Green -
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I had been in school for three years in 1968, and don't recall being taught delayed gratification. I was in the UK, where was Richard commenting on?
In reply to Marcus Green

Re: No one seems to complain about the length of pages on...

by Susan Jones -
I'm sure USA smile Now, I would have been in fourth grade, at St. Hugh's in Maryland, USA, and we *definitely* were still bein' taught delayed gratification. (Again, not *about* it, not with such a fancy term... but just "no, good things will come, but not always right away!")
In reply to Susan Jones

Re: No one seems to complain about the length of pages on...

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
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I've heard of delayed gratification only in this century. Obviously not taught at school during the last century. But I see, we practiced it. There was the first unit of delay, the "term". Then the end-of-year exams, where one - yes only _one_, could win a prize, usually a book. Then came two year delay before the G.C.E. exams. Inhuman, compared to today's accepted attention-retention spans.
;)

===
`Yes, we went to school in the sea, though you mayn't believe it--'

`I never said I didn't!' interrupted Alice.

`You did,' said the Mock Turtle.

`Hold your tongue!' added the Gryphon, before Alice could speak again. The Mock Turtle went on.

`We had the best of educations--in fact, we went to school every day--'

`I've been to a day-school, too,' said Alice; `you needn't be so proud as all that.'

`With extras?' asked the Mock Turtle a little anxiously.

`Yes,' said Alice, `we learned French and music.'

`And washing?' said the Mock Turtle.

`Certainly not!' said Alice indignantly.

`Ah! then yours wasn't a really good school,' said the Mock Turtle in a tone of great relief. `Now at ours they had at the end of the bill, "French, music, and washing--extra."'
=== The Mock Turtle's Story, https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rgs/alice-IX.html
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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: No one seems to complain about the length of pages on...

by Susan Jones -
I didn't mean we were taught *about* it. I mean taught to practice it... get school work done and then there's recess (not as a reward, just ... work comes first...)
In reply to Susan Jones

Re: No one seems to complain about the length of pages on...

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
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I know, I was just being cynical. Difficult to be anything else hearing all these, "too long", "too much",.. lamentations.
In reply to Susan Jones

Re: No one seems to complain about the length of pages on...

by Susan Jones -
... but designing ed materials for sustained attention is a real thing. Our pre-Algebra course uses ALEKS and students will spend MUCH more time getting math homework done than "do the odd problems for section 1-3."
In reply to Dominique Bauer

Re: No one seems to complain about the length of pages on...

by Marcus Green -
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To return to Dominique's original question, I believe the wrong metaphor is in use. A e-learning page is not equivalent of a social media page. The user of a social media page will expect to scroll past most of the content. The creator of a page of education content will hope the user will ideally engage with all of the content. The scroll of doom on an education page means the student is not certain of what they should engage with and also implies it is like social media content where most information will be ignored. I strongly recommend this free to read book on the metaphors of Ed Tech .https://read.aupress.ca/projects/metaphors-of-ed-tech
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In reply to Marcus Green

Re: No one seems to complain about the length of pages on...

by Randy Thornton -
I agree with Marcus on this.

"Social media" is misnomer: they are advertising platforms that earn money by maximizing the time spent looking at targeted advertising. Much or most of what is there is not why users come to the site: they come for the bait (friends, videos, etc) and stay despite the switch (the ads and forced content). Thus users must learn take the effort to skim and filter for what they want to see and separate that out from what the paying customers (advertisers) want them to see. Constant scrolling is one of those adaptations, which is why those platforms intensely study how to keep using scrolling to expose them to more ads: how much will uses scroll to get a bit of the bait? It's Behaviorism 101. Sites like that are engaged in a constant struggle between users and customers mediated by a constantly evolving, manipulating interface; because that is the business model.

In a well set up course, almost nothing is peripheral to the learning experience: everything should be relevant. Therefore a different type of interface is needed. Scrolling to get to where you need to be or working on next should ideally be non-existent - unless you have designed a learning experience where scrolling is useful to learning (games with hunting or finding or exploring). But that is not what course formats like Topics are designed to do. And that is why the scroll-of-death is the bane of Moodle.
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In reply to Randy Thornton

Re: No one seems to complain about the length of pages on...

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
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As we talk Twitter is releasing hot air: https://www.bbc.com/news/live/business-63511430.

One thing has to be said in their defense: Twitter cared for the length of a message. I am talking of its inexpressible 140 character limit.

In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: No one seems to complain about the length of pages on...

by Randy Thornton -
"140 character limit." Ah, those were the days!

But still, it is a scroll monster, like Fakebook.
In reply to Randy Thornton

Re: No one seems to complain about the length of pages on...

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
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And the days are over: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/22/11/07/1436225/facebook-parent-meta-is-preparing-to-notify-employees-of-large-scale-layoffs-this-week.

To Marcus' point, "A e-learning page is not equivalent of a social media page", the problem is that people are so much conditioned by this "social media", another misnomer, they look for the same experience everywhere.
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: No one seems to complain about the length of pages on...

by Marcus Green -
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If it wasn't what is currently called social media it would be something else. For example "The NetFlix of e-learning"
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In reply to Marcus Green

Re: No one seems to complain about the length of pages on...

by Randy Thornton -
Oh, that's good. "The Netflix of e-learning" . Hah. You could trademark that. Might hear from their lawyers though ;)
In reply to Randy Thornton

Re: No one seems to complain about the length of pages on...

by Joseph Rézeau -
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Randy wrote "Social media" is misnomer: etc.
Personally I call them anti-social media.
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In reply to Dominique Bauer

Re: No one seems to complain about the length of pages on...

by Gareth J Barnard -
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Hi Dominique,

RE:
"I very rarely use Facebook but whatever. I just checked out someone's Facebook site. The page length is amazing. It never ends. Yet, no one seems to complain about the length of pages on Facebook.

However, as soon as a page is a bit long on Moodle or another LMS, we talk about the scroll of death!"

That's because you need to consume all of the information on an LMS page as against a Social media one.

Kind regards,

Gareth
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In reply to Gareth J Barnard

Re: No one seems to complain about the length of pages on...

by Herb Boeckenhaupt -
On FB, they have continues load-in scrolling to shove more adverts at viewers.

Insomuch as long Moodle pages, using headline breaks, or putting the pages into powerpoint-type "page slides" which can be made to look interesting, etc.

Look at the text book and see how much content they put on pages.

Additionally, and sometimes overlooked, use sans-serif fonts for the text areas and bump up the text size to 16 or 18 px.  Bigger type is easier to read, and with strategic heading breaks, long pages can be interesting to keep looking - along with some added graphics,

Also, we plan our Lesson pages so that the length isn't long - so the success point is "make it look the way YOU would want to view it!"