I have been tasked to look into Moodle this semester. As an instructor, it has been bumpy, frustrating, cool, all in the same moments. We are a WebCT college. Huge, deep feelings against WebCT and how it works. I, like others, want a new alternative.
I am testing Moodle in a very, very basic class. Lecture series. Site set up in weekly format, bare bones. I use the new attendance module and the Questionaire module. Both are working fine and as hoped. Wanted to use the survey module but my idea of what a survey is and the designers implementation are in different parts of the the time-space thing. Questionaire worked fine for my needs in the end.
I have no clue about the server end of Moodle and have left it up to the IT dept. We won't go there accept to say that my efforts to test moodle was given high priority by one dept. and fell short in the IT dept. The poor guy tries but it takes days or weeks to get changes, research problems, fix stuff. It took more than half the semester for them to find out that the unix server setup did not have the some module for email, which really broke the student login functions, and tons of other interactivity.
So, nearing the end of the semester, it's not a good report card that I bring to the Moodle community. And it's a simple, almost stupid problem that will break the deal for our college to accept this promising program. It happened today when we brought up a new, fully functional, well powered server. The whole Moodle thing was ported over to the new box. The uglies started when I went to backup my course from the old server and restore it on the new server.
I got all kinds of errors that are not documented in the forum areas. IT helped and got the class up and open. But all the graphics have broken links, and the attendance module (the new one) won't update it's data. These are two pretty basic functions of a learning site or activity. If I were to bring up a full class function as I now have in WebCT, just the broken graphic links would cause me tens of hours for each section, each semester. This is not acceptable to any of us I think. Maybe I have a low tollerence to mind numbing keyboard work.
Documentation is always tuff for software, I've done my share. But Moodles is pretty much useless in several areas. The FAQ for backup and restore is the example I ran into just today. Very simply the paragraph on what will and won't be backed up is useless.
Now I'm sure several will fire back that I should spend my energy helping with documentation and I could... but I need more time in the program to do anything functional I think. I'm on the learning curve. I'm still trying to figure out who things work. I spend every hour I can afford. Because I am just the professor doing professor like things with the software, it is this prospective I bring forward.
There is still time in the semester to see if we can get it functional on level with WebCT. Not having all the features of WebCT is not the issue. Having what is offered, work, is vital. 5% of our instructors will love to tinker and play with workaround. The rest will bail on the program if it gets in the way of servicing the students.
Help from the forums has been helpful. This is a plus... but mostly to those of us who love to tinker and have the time to search.
Right now, it's a no-go from my perspective, for Moodle at Ut. Valley State College. Maybe in the next year things will even out. This is really frustrating for me. I teach digital film making and multi media design. There are functions within Moodle that would make my courses pop. But if I can't bank on perfect backups and restores, data being transfered accurately... the cool stuff is just icing.
Productive thoughs and input are appreciated.
bob trim
We are in a similar situation, but with BB! Only I was fortunate to be a member of the computer science department, so we have our own server. The jury is still out on whether or not we move to Moodle, even though I have personally invested quite a lot in the process. I teach multimedia also! And we use the attendance module, but we haven't tried to back up the attendance.
I am wondering about your experience with the backup and restore. I have a couple of questions for you--
1) When you backed up the course, did you select yes for the dropdown box for backing up course files?
2) When you restored your course, did you select yes for the dropdown box for backing up course files?
I ask this because I have backed up a course from one server and restored it on another server and have not had the problem you describe. But I think it would be easy to miss those dropdown boxes, or set the checkboxes incorrectly.
Is it possible to test this again with your course, and really watch the options that you select to see if it makes a difference? Please contact me directly if you would like a sympathetic ear and/or would like to test on another server. We are in a similar situation, and I hate to hear about your frustrations.
atw
I am wondering about your experience with the backup and restore. I have a couple of questions for you--
1) When you backed up the course, did you select yes for the dropdown box for backing up course files?
2) When you restored your course, did you select yes for the dropdown box for backing up course files?
I ask this because I have backed up a course from one server and restored it on another server and have not had the problem you describe. But I think it would be easy to miss those dropdown boxes, or set the checkboxes incorrectly.
Is it possible to test this again with your course, and really watch the options that you select to see if it makes a difference? Please contact me directly if you would like a sympathetic ear and/or would like to test on another server. We are in a similar situation, and I hate to hear about your frustrations.
atw
I can only assume I am doing it right. At least half right. The only person who has been able to restore it the IT admin. I get rights and other errors when I try the upload. I can upload assets however, just no the .zip course backup file.
I'll step through it again.
bob
I'll step through it again.
bob
If you can copy some of the errors from the page and paste them into the forums here, it would help with debugging.
It sounds like the zip might be larger than your the maximum upload size on your server? If so an easy fix is to ftp the file to your server, into the files directory of one of the courses on the server.
It sounds like the zip might be larger than your the maximum upload size on your server? If so an easy fix is to ftp the file to your server, into the files directory of one of the courses on the server.
Here's the upload error I get everytime when trying to upload the restore file to the server. ....
The connection was reset
The connection to the server was reset while the page was loading.
* The site could be temporarily unavailable or too busy. Try again in a few
moments.
* If you are unable to load any pages, check your computer's network
connection.
* If your computer or network is protected by a firewall or proxy, make sure
that Firefox is permitted to access the Web.
No problem uploading any other files however... like graphics.
bob
I suspect most of your problems are due to inexperience - one solution would be to get a Moodle Partner to install and maintain it for you.
Also you've been using some community contributed modules that are not in the main Moodle distribution and therefore may be incomplete or get less testing.
I'm not saying Moodle is perfect, it's an ongoing project and much work is still being done every day. Thanks for posting your experiences, all feedback helps us improve in the long run.
Also you've been using some community contributed modules that are not in the main Moodle distribution and therefore may be incomplete or get less testing.
I'm not saying Moodle is perfect, it's an ongoing project and much work is still being done every day. Thanks for posting your experiences, all feedback helps us improve in the long run.
Hi Robert, it would be helpful if you posted some examples of the errors you recieved during back up and restore.
I aslo have a question: when your college installed WebCT, did they have a technical staff member handle the initial set up?
It may be an interesting excercise to step back and consider that your evaluation has been based on trying to do something you probably would not have done with a commercial system: set up an enterprise level LMS yourself without support.
On the bright side, if you had tried to set up BB or WebCT by yourself, you would have had to have already paid ~$10,000 for the license, and could call them with questions. You could do the same thing with Moodle & I'm sure you could find a Moodle partner or expert who could install Moodle for much less than that.
I aslo have a question: when your college installed WebCT, did they have a technical staff member handle the initial set up?
It may be an interesting excercise to step back and consider that your evaluation has been based on trying to do something you probably would not have done with a commercial system: set up an enterprise level LMS yourself without support.
On the bright side, if you had tried to set up BB or WebCT by yourself, you would have had to have already paid ~$10,000 for the license, and could call them with questions. You could do the same thing with Moodle & I'm sure you could find a Moodle partner or expert who could install Moodle for much less than that.
IT has been a problem to success. I think he is frantic trying to learn Moodle from the Admin. side, with a small fraction of his time. AND it was installed on an underpowered server without checking if the underlying unix software was fully and properly installed.
Setting those frustrations aside, there are fundamental problems with Moodle that hamper what should be felt as 'normal' operations. It should not be required to hack the basic code to set the max. upload size. Why isn't there a field for us to enter a size?. I need a 100meg limit. My students turn in audio, video and graphic files for grading. A full blow web site build for one of my sections is 50+ megs zipped. So restoring is a problem with the puny 8 meg limit.
Our instructors WILL go to documentation for various functions. I have gotten several very productive, off list, emails about how to solve problems. Much appreciated!!. Why aren't those work arounds or basic 'this is how it works' in the documentation. Again, I'll refer to the backup and restore. Every help I have received is NOT part of the documentation for the Instructors manual or the Admin. manual. They work. Heck, I'd include them if I knew how, but time on my end is critical. I'm in the middle of a huge grant proposal due next week. We all have time crunches so mine is not unique.
I'm not done with Moodle yet. I need to be proactive with the IT and Distance Ed dept. about getting real. If I gather the right perspective from other list members... if IT is not willing to put forth a strong effort, it isn't going to work.
bob
Setting those frustrations aside, there are fundamental problems with Moodle that hamper what should be felt as 'normal' operations. It should not be required to hack the basic code to set the max. upload size. Why isn't there a field for us to enter a size?. I need a 100meg limit. My students turn in audio, video and graphic files for grading. A full blow web site build for one of my sections is 50+ megs zipped. So restoring is a problem with the puny 8 meg limit.
Our instructors WILL go to documentation for various functions. I have gotten several very productive, off list, emails about how to solve problems. Much appreciated!!. Why aren't those work arounds or basic 'this is how it works' in the documentation. Again, I'll refer to the backup and restore. Every help I have received is NOT part of the documentation for the Instructors manual or the Admin. manual. They work. Heck, I'd include them if I knew how, but time on my end is critical. I'm in the middle of a huge grant proposal due next week. We all have time crunches so mine is not unique.
I'm not done with Moodle yet. I need to be proactive with the IT and Distance Ed dept. about getting real. If I gather the right perspective from other list members... if IT is not willing to put forth a strong effort, it isn't going to work.
bob
Why isn't there a field for us to enter a size?
There is. It's the maxbytes setting in the Variables screen under Administration.
The maximum value you can set here is controlled by your Apache web server configuration and PHP configuration, though. Those limits would exist regardless of what software you were using; they have nothing to do with Moodle per se.
There are actually three things going on here:
1) Apache web server (handles serving the web pages)
2) PHP interpreter (handles generating dynamic pages)
3) Moodle.
Your problem is most likely with 2 (maybe 1), not 3.
Again, this limit doesn't have anything to do with Moodle itself. The php.ini limit applies to ANY PHP script, and the Apache limit applies to ANY web application. You can certainly change these (if you have administrative access to the machine), but there's no way for Moodle to do it.
There is. It's the maxbytes setting in the Variables screen under Administration.
The maximum value you can set here is controlled by your Apache web server configuration and PHP configuration, though. Those limits would exist regardless of what software you were using; they have nothing to do with Moodle per se.
There are actually three things going on here:
1) Apache web server (handles serving the web pages)
2) PHP interpreter (handles generating dynamic pages)
3) Moodle.
Your problem is most likely with 2 (maybe 1), not 3.
Again, this limit doesn't have anything to do with Moodle itself. The php.ini limit applies to ANY PHP script, and the Apache limit applies to ANY web application. You can certainly change these (if you have administrative access to the machine), but there's no way for Moodle to do it.
It should not be required to hack the basic code to set the max. upload size.
Hi Robert, no hacking required (see Tony's post), this is a server settings problem, one you may avoid in a commercial system by paying lots of money up front. For example, if you buy Blackboard, they configure your machine for you (and they charge you a good deal for that) so that Apache's upload size is set higher. This has good sides and bad sides (since BB provides a custom install of Windows Server, you can't install Microsoft's patchs until BB provides them for you), and then there is that yearly license fee (likely to go up very much in the coming years, if Jim Farmer's analysis of Blackboard/WebCT's financial situation is correct).
They can also turn off standard features of any webserver (such as secure sign on (SSL)) and then make you upgrade to their even more expensive version to get it turned back on again (BB did this in the upgrade from 5.5 to 6, for instance). You can get Moodle all set up for you for much less than Blackboard, or you can learn to do it yourself, however, as Tony pointed out Moodle (like most web based applications, like Blackboard and WebCT) relies on other applications to run, and these applications also have to be set up properly for the needs of your institution.
Another good thing is that once you have developed the local expertise to set up a Moodle server, you don't have to keep paying every year, you can write the settings down and take them out when you feel it's time to upgrade the server. Your admin can look here http://docs.moodle.org/en/Administration_FAQ#How_do_the_limits_on_uploaded_files_work.3F
to see how to set the limits on uploaded files in Apache and PHP.
Hi Robert, no hacking required (see Tony's post), this is a server settings problem, one you may avoid in a commercial system by paying lots of money up front. For example, if you buy Blackboard, they configure your machine for you (and they charge you a good deal for that) so that Apache's upload size is set higher. This has good sides and bad sides (since BB provides a custom install of Windows Server, you can't install Microsoft's patchs until BB provides them for you), and then there is that yearly license fee (likely to go up very much in the coming years, if Jim Farmer's analysis of Blackboard/WebCT's financial situation is correct).
They can also turn off standard features of any webserver (such as secure sign on (SSL)) and then make you upgrade to their even more expensive version to get it turned back on again (BB did this in the upgrade from 5.5 to 6, for instance). You can get Moodle all set up for you for much less than Blackboard, or you can learn to do it yourself, however, as Tony pointed out Moodle (like most web based applications, like Blackboard and WebCT) relies on other applications to run, and these applications also have to be set up properly for the needs of your institution.
Another good thing is that once you have developed the local expertise to set up a Moodle server, you don't have to keep paying every year, you can write the settings down and take them out when you feel it's time to upgrade the server. Your admin can look here http://docs.moodle.org/en/Administration_FAQ#How_do_the_limits_on_uploaded_files_work.3F
to see how to set the limits on uploaded files in Apache and PHP.
...if IT is not willing to put forth a strong effort, it isn't going to work.
That is probably true, but it would be a shame.
-- Art
That is probably true, but it would be a shame.
-- Art
Hi Bob
As you can see from the other replies, certain issues you have faced, such as upload limits, are not Moodle issues, rather they are server settings. The upload issue has been covered in great depth in various threads and in the install documentation.
Documentation has been an issue, as it is with any sytem this large with such diverse input. This has been acknowledged and is being addressed.
But, frustrations aside, I hope you do not write-off Moodle due to your experience thus far.
I am not an IT person and I have successfully set up a Moodle site with no input from my IT department (background is in publishing therefore, I do have extensive computer experience as a user but no networking/server experience). Already, I would say the site has saved my organisation thousands of dollars (Australian $ that is) - main reason to set it up was for external people to do skills maintenance (linked to being able to do their job) and Moodle has alleviated the need to run formal classroom based courses for more than 200 people so far.
What has been an assett to me is the fact I bypassed IT and set the site up on an external host thereby giving me full control (will have to deal with the politics in the not so distant future unfortunately!). So, IMHO you are ahead of me in the fact you at least have some support from your IT department - getting my head around server issues, php, mysql et al has been a bit of a steep learning curve for me.
Bottom line for me was "Is Moodle going to meet my organisations requirements?" - the answer was yes and setting aside minor issues setting it up, it has been.
I hope you can percivere a little longer, I'm sure the benefits will outweigh the initial frustration.
Regards
H
As you can see from the other replies, certain issues you have faced, such as upload limits, are not Moodle issues, rather they are server settings. The upload issue has been covered in great depth in various threads and in the install documentation.
Documentation has been an issue, as it is with any sytem this large with such diverse input. This has been acknowledged and is being addressed.
But, frustrations aside, I hope you do not write-off Moodle due to your experience thus far.
I am not an IT person and I have successfully set up a Moodle site with no input from my IT department (background is in publishing therefore, I do have extensive computer experience as a user but no networking/server experience). Already, I would say the site has saved my organisation thousands of dollars (Australian $ that is) - main reason to set it up was for external people to do skills maintenance (linked to being able to do their job) and Moodle has alleviated the need to run formal classroom based courses for more than 200 people so far.
What has been an assett to me is the fact I bypassed IT and set the site up on an external host thereby giving me full control (will have to deal with the politics in the not so distant future unfortunately!). So, IMHO you are ahead of me in the fact you at least have some support from your IT department - getting my head around server issues, php, mysql et al has been a bit of a steep learning curve for me.
Bottom line for me was "Is Moodle going to meet my organisations requirements?" - the answer was yes and setting aside minor issues setting it up, it has been.
I hope you can percivere a little longer, I'm sure the benefits will outweigh the initial frustration.
Regards
H
Update....
Called a meeting with our core IT folks that are thinking about the switch to Moodle. Without going into all the details, our college is seeking a replacement to WebCT for a wide range or reasons. They got to see first hand the slow response our server is giving and are now sympathetic to my fight to get anything done without spending hours waiting. Several other instructors are going to ramp up for the fall test period. It seems that if all goes well, there will be a full rollout in Spring '07.
I to am going to bring up a full on course that will be far more demanding, broader and deeper than this first testing of the waters. I still have to over come backup and restore to a new semesters course. Have no idea how that works..yet.
Other issues will be seeing if the Demetries attendance block will get mainstreamed so it can be backed up with everything else. Getting Banner data back and forth...and a few other things.
If the college gets behind this, we will have 20,000 students banging on it. So, one more step forward. Thanks for the support... and the ear.
Called a meeting with our core IT folks that are thinking about the switch to Moodle. Without going into all the details, our college is seeking a replacement to WebCT for a wide range or reasons. They got to see first hand the slow response our server is giving and are now sympathetic to my fight to get anything done without spending hours waiting. Several other instructors are going to ramp up for the fall test period. It seems that if all goes well, there will be a full rollout in Spring '07.
I to am going to bring up a full on course that will be far more demanding, broader and deeper than this first testing of the waters. I still have to over come backup and restore to a new semesters course. Have no idea how that works..yet.
Other issues will be seeing if the Demetries attendance block will get mainstreamed so it can be backed up with everything else. Getting Banner data back and forth...and a few other things.
If the college gets behind this, we will have 20,000 students banging on it. So, one more step forward. Thanks for the support... and the ear.
Hi Robert, good to hear things are getting better. Moodle is 'free' as in no yearly license, and IMO safer as you have a perpetual right to use it, but it still requires about the same amount of support staff time as Blackboard or WebCT (and John Norman of Cambridge has confirmed this matches his estimates on the Educauase CIO list..about 2FTE of sysadmin time to provide the proper support for 20,000 users, and they've looked at WebCT, Sakai, Blackboard, and Moodle in their research).
We also use Banner here at HSU, we push student data from Banner to our LDAP server for authentication, enrollment, and course shell set up (~3500 courses and sections each semester). We can share the scripts we use for this if your IT folks are interested... Banner installations often seem to be unique but they may provide a decent starting point for your integration work.
Best
Michael
We also use Banner here at HSU, we push student data from Banner to our LDAP server for authentication, enrollment, and course shell set up (~3500 courses and sections each semester). We can share the scripts we use for this if your IT folks are interested... Banner installations often seem to be unique but they may provide a decent starting point for your integration work.
Best
Michael
I'd be interested in seeing those scripts too, Michael.
Sean K
Sean K
Michael,
I am working with Robert on getting Moodle working here on Campus. I think we have most of the bugs worked out and are looking forward to more courses, teachers, students in the next semester.
I would love to take a look at those scripts you use for banner integration.
Do you have real-time synchronization between the two systems, or do you have uploads everynight?
Thanks,
Adam
I am working with Robert on getting Moodle working here on Campus. I think we have most of the bugs worked out and are looking forward to more courses, teachers, students in the next semester.
I would love to take a look at those scripts you use for banner integration.
Do you have real-time synchronization between the two systems, or do you have uploads everynight?
Thanks,
Adam
...and having Adam helping is the bomb! as my kids say.
Just an update of the update.... from my POV, IT and Distance Ed. at UVSC are now fully committed to making the next testing round well supported. In fact, there are at least 4 more faculty in our dept. who want to work over the summer to bring up their classes in Moodle for the fall. These folks are far more savey than me on the programing/HTML/PHP side of things so they have a different prospective.
My appreciation goes out to the Moodle tribe for the help, support and information to keep me going through my trial by fire. We be Moodling now!
bob
Just an update of the update.... from my POV, IT and Distance Ed. at UVSC are now fully committed to making the next testing round well supported. In fact, there are at least 4 more faculty in our dept. who want to work over the summer to bring up their classes in Moodle for the fall. These folks are far more savey than me on the programing/HTML/PHP side of things so they have a different prospective.
My appreciation goes out to the Moodle tribe for the help, support and information to keep me going through my trial by fire. We be Moodling now!
bob