I think we failed

I think we failed

by Chad Parmentier -
Number of replies: 61

I began using moodle in release version 1.2 way back in the day. At that time teachers could post documents, create assessments, and utilize discussion boards.  I have installed, administered, and used Moodle as a Teacher and Instructional Designer for over fifteen years. With that said every school In the US seems to be using Google Classroom with Chromebooks which even today lacks the functionality and usability Moodle had over fifteen years ago. In years past we worried teachers might become frustrated with quiz importing and Examview integration with moodle because these tasks were a bit advanced for someone with little IT experience. Now Google Classrooms has teachers building clunky assessments using google forms (something that drives me crazy)  and teachers rave about it. In the past couple of years, I have tried to force google classrooms to function like a normal LMS by trying to jump SCORM modules in through Google Sites and Drive only to see Google depreciate that compatibility if you could ever call it that.  I have recently begun trying to Hack moodle so students could authenticate to allow students to access Xerte activities. the idea would be to have a link in Google Classroom that would launch a Xerte module where students could dynamically interact with assessments and activities. This, of course, has to be done in such a way that school administrators and other teachers are kept from knowing its moodle behind the scenes.

I am realizing even if I continue to hack and force Google classrooms to function, it will only give a false premise to the notion that google classroom is great.  Other Chromebook/Google Classroom issues include network bandwidth strain, internet, power outages,  lack of grade book, zero integration with products like turn it in, SCORM, ETC.

This is so frustrating I am considering quitting teaching.  Now Schools are adopting textbooks that are scripted, so teachers are required to read lesson plans with all the corporate plugs and proprietary lingo for strategies that have been around for years. It's sad when my students can pass a test with corporate Edujargon such as Think Pair Share, Notice & Wonder, Examine & Experiment, ToSEEC, etc, but fail to understand the basic content the are supposed to be learning. I guess my question is are there any schools left the use technology effectively? Are there any schools left that allow teachers to teach vs read scripted corporate crap?


Soon to be ex-teacher

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In reply to Chad Parmentier

Re: I think we failed

by Joost Elshoff -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers

Hi Chad,

Moodle has been around for more than 15 years now, and has (from a technology point of view) advanced with the increasing requirements of the education industry, adding features and tools both in core and in 3rd party plugins. By doing so, implementing a Moodle instance in any school has moved from the hobby / personal interest department to the full on IT department. 

This, in turn, requires that organisations take time to come up with not only a URL for Moodle and some web server space to run it, but also with a plan and design of how to embed the software so it'll actually be used as it's meant to. 

Most boards don't have the knowledge, time or money available to invest in these things, although implementing an LMS would greatly benefit from it. And 'free to use' deals like G Classroom and Drive are developed as one size fits all solutions that lack these required steps, but also lack the depth of functionality a real LMS has.

Any institution wide implementation of Moodle (or another LMS for that matter) would benefit from having:

  • a clear idea and purpose for implementing it
  • a clear description of the problem the implementation's going to solve
  • a functional design document that takes into account the requirements teaching staff and students have for the software
  • a technical specification of the integrations the software should have
  • a realistic budget for implementing and running the LMS, including room for onboarding and training for teachers and educational materials developers
  • ...

I read that you're very disappointed in the system as a whole, but don't forget: the tools don't make the teacher. If you can inspire your students to achieve their full potential while they're in your school, you shouldn't stop teaching. 

If you're looking for schools that use Moodle and MS O365 / G Suite for Education effectively, I can tell you they are out there. The thing is: they normally don't publish blogs about their achievements and results. From a personal / professional point of view, I know quite a few schools here in the Netherlands that have found their ideal blend of applications including Moodle, and that are running this blend effectively.

Good luck!

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In reply to Joost Elshoff

Re: I think we failed

by Chad Parmentier -
I think you misread my post. I am disappointed in Google. Moodle is fantastic and I have hosted large school districts on rackspace servers for over 10 years for free. I suppose there might be some way to use google classroom effectively.
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In reply to Chad Parmentier

Re: I think we failed

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Hi Chad

I also thought the We in "we failed" is Moodle! Would have been bad if a 14 year Moodle veteran says that. It is a relief to hear that you meant the opposite.
wink

But then there is this new surprise: "I am disappointed in Google." What did you expect? An all pervasive philanthropical society? You don't have to look far - search for "Google evil" in the forums here.
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In reply to Joost Elshoff

Re: I think we (the world) failed

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Jost and all

> 'free to use' deals like G Classroom and Drive are developed as one size fits all solutions that lack these required steps, but also lack the depth of functionality a real LMS has.

That needs to be sprayed on the door of every education manager!

> Any institution wide implementation of Moodle (or another LMS for that matter) would benefit from having:
>
> - a clear idea and purpose for implementing it

Purpose? Are you kidding? The other day we were told in a presentation to 80 teachers on tertiary level that Microsoft something has 30 odd (subscription based) tools, in other words all the tools we need in our teaching. The irony is that none knew, not even heard of those tools. If it came from a M$ salesman, I would understand. No, the presenter was an IT teacher in the same group!

> - a clear description of the problem the implementation's going to solve

I stop here before I get too sarcastic.
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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: I think we failed

by Ralf Hilgenstock -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators

Well. And Moodle has 10+ tools only for learning diaries/journals. 5+ forum types. 35+ test scenario types. All for free in basic installation.


There is no better tool.

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In reply to Ralf Hilgenstock

Re: I think we (the world) failed

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
According to the OP the problem is not that Moodle lacks anything, in. fact he said "Moodle is fantastic". No, his rant is against Google, "I am disappointed in Google", or by extension, why so many schools go for Google. That is why I appended (the world) to 'we'.
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In reply to Chad Parmentier

Re: I think we failed

by James Steerpike -

No Google at my school. For me, no curricula, no staff meetings, no textbook, no  oversight. Yet I work in a government tertiary institute with thousands of students. Just told to teach for 18 weeks with 54 forty minute classes.

I administer and run my own cloud based Moodle as each student has a computer at their desk. No support and no interference from my school. So there are places that simply trust a teacher to teach. Strange to think working as an ESL teacher in China gives me all this freedom.

 


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In reply to James Steerpike

Re: I think we failed

by Chad Parmentier -
Wow, thats unexpected and funny. Maybe they need an online ESL teacher, I always joke and say moodle comes with me when im hired.
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In reply to James Steerpike

Re: I think we failed

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Hi

You wrote:
> No Google at my school. For me, no curricula, no staff meetings, no textbook, no oversight.

You know, how privileged you are? Look at the situation in the US https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=389697#p1574883, for example.

> I administer and run my own cloud based Moodle as each student has a computer at their desk. No support and no interference from my school. So there are places that simply trust a teacher to teach.

Same there. The state will catch you for a potential data privacy breach! (Not that Google & Co. are not engaged in such practices.)
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In reply to Chad Parmentier

Re: I think we failed

by James Steerpike -
The best technology doesn't always win - especially when it is up against an easy but limited solution. Having a billion dollar company giving it away also makes its desirable. We should remember our mother's advice - strangers offering candy usually have evil plans for the gullible.
All you can do is endure or move on.
One more reason for the Google/Chromebook solution to be a  bad choice - the Chromebook Auto Update policy.  “Business and education customers using devices that have passed their AUE [Auto Update Expiration] date should not expect that they can manage their devices as expected using the Google Admin console or leverage new management features released,”
Each device has a  lifetime before Chromebook security updates stops. That is from when the Chromebook platform is launched, so for a Google Chromebook Pixel (2015) support expires in  Jun 2020 regardless of when the device was purchased.
No more security updates. Limited management ability. Just buy a new batch of Chromebooks every 5 years?

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In reply to James Steerpike

Re: I think we failed

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Yep, China is not waiting to be carried by Google: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/19/09/12/2125216/huawei-starts-selling-laptops-with-linux-preinstalled
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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: I think we failed

by James Steerpike -
Red Flag Linux launched 20 years ago backed by the Ministry of Industry and Information Technology. It went nowhere and has expired. The threat of taking up Linux is more of a negotiating position but with Chinese companies being banned from using US technology, who knows? Linux and its programs have always had a compatibility problem that only widespread adoption will solve and any shortcomings could have tens of thousands of developers thrown at it. Chinese users are already using different software as Google (app store, search, mail, maps, drive. translate), Facebook, Whatsapp and most social networking are only accessible by VPN.
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In reply to James Steerpike

Re: I think we failed

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
> The threat of taking up Linux is more of a negotiating position but with Chinese companies being banned from using US technology, who knows?

Imagine, there were no card at the negotiating table! I know plenty of (old) examples where institutions bargained with Microsoft to get their (client installed) Office for a spot price.

> Linux and its programs have always had a compatibility problem that only widespread adoption will solve

Wrong! That why people with options go for Open Standards. Look at Moodle. Where is the compatibility problem? (except for those poor who are stuck with the Internet Explorer)

> Chinese users are already using different software as Google (app store, search, mail, maps, drive. translate), Facebook, Whatsapp and most social networking are only accessible by VPN.

Unbelievable!
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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: I think we failed

by James Steerpike -
Like it or not, the standard for business documents is MS Word. I have used OpenOffice for years and it can save in .doc format but it would be reckless to edit a document from the boss in OO. Proprietary fonts may have disappeared,carefully formatted tables split and spread over pages - talking about Open standards won't appease her.
Working on slideshows for a university class, the machines there didn't run Libre Or Open Office. If I wanted to ensure my work was to a professional standard, I had to check and save in MS Office. Just like the original post, forced into buying and using a proprietary product when a free solution was available.
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In reply to James Steerpike

Re: I think we failed

by Matt Bury -
Picture of Plugin developers

Re: Proprietary software & formats, e.g. MS Office, the European Union, with a population of over 500 million & GDP of $22 trillion (second only to China), already has a directive to prefer free & open source software (FOSS) & open formats over proprietary options. Libre Office is now receiving substantial support from the EU & a number of EU government agencies & member country government agencies, e.g. French police, German municipalities, & Spanish healthcare, are switching to FOSS, e.g. Ubuntu Linux desktop OS, & open formats, e.g. ODF, PDF, & HTML. Governments are by far the largest & most influential procurers of software. Businesses that want to work with the EU may, at some point, have adopt platform agnostic policies & provide documents in openly compatible formats.

The EU & member countries are also opening multiple investigations & prosecutions into malpractices by US IT giants, i.e. Microsoft, Google, Apple, Facebook, et. al..

China is also adopting & developing its own version of Linux (Kylin) since 2001 for general govt. & public use as well as other Linux variants for its military. Other countries, e.g. Brazil, India, & Russia, have followed or are following similar trajectories.

I've done elearning work for EU & OECD agencies & they've all insisted on using FOSS solutions, which for an LMS means Moodle since it's the only one of the big four LMS' which is. If you check out any EU funded research which uses an LMS, I've also participated in a couple of projects, it's almost always on Moodle.

Re: Libre Office in particular, I've found it integrates with other software apps more consistently & with fewer issues than with MS Office, e.g. Zotero bibliography manager works far better with Libre Office. I've been using Libre Office exclusively & Ubuntu almost exclusively for the past 8 years & am just as productive, if not more so, than I was with Microsoft's software. It's also much easier, & I have more options & capabilities, to work on remote Linux servers, e.g. on the cloud, with a Linux desktop than with MS Windows.

The future supremacy of proprietary US IT outside of north America is far from certain.

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In reply to Matt Bury

Re: I think we failed

by James Steerpike -
I have been using Linux since 1997. There was a period of about 5 years when I used a single boot Linux at home for everything. Even giving it away, Linux and OO have made a 1 to 3 % impression on the desktop market. Micosoft in 2019 was the world's most valuable company and much of that is based on Windows and Office. Now I use Win 10 and Windows Subsystem for Linux. My only Linux box is an elderly Asus EEE 701 netbook from 2007, the very first mass produced and promoted Linux netbook. It was soon replaced by Windows variants but running Ubunti CLI it still rsyncs my moodle back to my desk.
I have been hearing about the coming of Linux and opensource for twenty years. Unix variants and open source have conquered the world. Linux servers have 95% of the server market, Android, MacOS, embedded devices - all based on Unix. Apache and nginx dominate web-servers. MySQL ..... I despair when I see another clueless newbie trying to install Moodle on anything but a LAMP/LEMP  stack.   But opensource has never succeeded on the desktop.
In many Asian countries a DVD of Windows or Office will set you back a dollar and it can be installed for no cost on a new PC. My new Chinese provincial owned classroom in China has 60 new machines running on Windows 7. Go to any internet cafe and see what pops up.
I do still have a Linux desktop. Ubuntu 18.04 running as a window in Windows 10.
The question no Linux booster wants to answer: Do you boot only into Linux or do you dual boot because you can't live without Windows?
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In reply to James Steerpike

Re: I think we failed

by Matt Bury -
Picture of Plugin developers

Hi James,

Historically, that's all true. Microsoft has dominated PCs for decades.

My point is that things are changing now. As IT becomes part of critical infrastructure, governments are becoming more aware of the security concerns that come with it. In the case of countries that are economic & political competitors with the US, it makes sense for them to look elsewhere for their IT needs, e.g. Germany has declared Windows 10 unfit for use in schools because it isn't compliant with the GDPR; Russia & China are developing more security-focused OS' for their critical infrastructure.

In addition to this, Apple's OSX & iOS is making a resurgence in the luxury consumer electronics market & Android Linux is becoming the dominant OS in mobile markets. The point I'm making here is that more people are getting used to using more than one OS. Someone who's used to both Windows & Android Linux can more easily adapt to another OS, like some other flavour of Linux. 

Also as I mentioned before, governments are the largest procurers of IT & the largest employers. EU, Russian, Chinese, etc. governments are switching to alternative OS', usually some flavour or other of Linux. This means that more people will get used to using these OS' at work & be more open to using them on their personal computers.

We're already seeing companies like Dell, Google (PixelBooks), & Huawei, as well as specialist OEMs such as System76, Compulab, ZaReason, etc., offering Linux PCs, & their growing popularity.

The US administration's current nationalist policies & sanctions against their trading partners, as well as revelations about the NSA & CIA's hacking, spying, & sabotage activities, are helping to push more governments & corporations away from US software & service providers that are seen as complicit or at least co-opted into this situation.

I think there are significant changes ahead which is why I'm questioning the future dominance of incumbents like Microsoft & Google.

One example scenario, imagine a substantial number of education authorities banning the use of Microsoft & Google products & services in their classrooms. Google & Microsoft have already shown that they're intransigent towards users' privacy concerns doing nothing more than PR campaigns & cosmetic changes in response.

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In reply to Matt Bury

Re: I think we failed

by Marcus Green -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
'But opensource has never succeeded on the desktop.'
Which may not matter if the local desktop stops being the default.It is starting to look like the key technologies will be the browser and the server.
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In reply to James Steerpike

Re: I think we failed

by Richard Oelmann -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers

Linux only for me, and has been for over 3 years. Before that it was Linux as a primary, but my workplace insisted I had a Win desktop too, but it was hardly ever used for anything other than an additional screen with FOSS software (LibreOffice, GIMP, etc) running on it.

I borrow someone else's PC if I need to test something because IE has broken compatibility issues

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In reply to Richard Oelmann

FOSS vs. SaaS from the big in education

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Hi all

Good to know that still there are die-hard FOSS advocates. Although I love to continue along that line, the OP's rant was about so many schools going to Google rather than hosting their own FOSS LMS. I hope the new subject "FOSS vs. SaaS from the big in education" reflects his feelings better. That way the non-US people too can join the discussion, since the big boss in education in Europe is not Google but Microsoft.

As far as I am concerned, the biggest problem is SaaS - I don't get the software, my data is in their "cloud". The second, related problem is, the software is not Open Source, I can never be sure what the software does without lookng at its source.
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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: FOSS vs. SaaS from the big in education

by Matt Bury -
Picture of Plugin developers

SaaS you say? https://moodlecloud.com/ :P

Although Moodle's cloud service is transparent & it's relatively easy to migrate data from one installation to another. We probably can't say the same for other SaaS LMS'.

As far as I can see, Google are marketing their office software for educational purposes rather than as an LMS (but yes, "Google Classroom" sounds like an LMS). Most students, teachers, & admins are already familiar with office software & so it doesn't take much imagination to start using an online version to support learning in educational contexts. I've also witnessed (sometimes visceral) ill-will towards incumbent LMS vendors, e.g. WebCT/Blackboard & Desire2Learn, so I'm not surprised if there's some reluctance among some to dive into using one. Then there's that steep learning curve with getting started with LMS' in general.

Just my €0.02! smile

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In reply to Matt Bury

Re: FOSS vs. SaaS from the big in education

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Hi Matt

Hope, I got your smiley right! I don't see MoodleCloud as a SaaS: You can always get your data back and run them in any other Moodle hosting. Even if it is, Moodle HQ is not yet BIG.
wink

How Google made it to Education is the question. May be as you say, "Google are marketing their office software for educational purposes". So the "professionals" whose professional standard was Office migrated in to Google Docs, Drive etc. first for their private use and then for professional use. As I already said, Europe put a brake on that but Microsoft came out as the winner. Their marriage is longer, I guess.
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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: FOSS vs. SaaS from the big in education

by Richard Oelmann -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Appreciate that Visvanath - though my post wasn't so much about being a 'die hard FOSS advocate' as answering the poster's direct question
"The question no Linux booster wants to answer: Do you boot only into Linux or do you dual boot because you can't live without Windows?"
The implication of which is that you just can't cope without Windows - I'm sure Windows is great for many things, and there is software that doesn't work well on any other system, but for me it's certainly not an essential. I (more than) manage fine in both professional and personal life without it.
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In reply to Richard Oelmann

Re: The question no Linux booster wants to answer:

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Hi Richard

I didn't notice that you were replying to James' post. I thought another Linux vs. Windows discussion is going too far. I am sorry.

Well, it is time for me to answer "The question no Linux booster wants to answer: Do you boot only into Linux or do you dual boot because you can't live without Windows?"

My laptop was indeed dual boot from somewhere mid 90's up to the early zero years. Then became Linux native and stayed. I have a Windows 10 VM for just for one purpose: to enter a secure network of a customer through a Microsoft specific VDI interface - only to start PuTTY and in a Bash shell. Other than that I never boot the Windows VM.

@James, I tried to summarize the current state in two lines. The history is a bit longer. You'll find a longer version in my profile.
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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: The question no Linux booster wants to answer:

by Marcus Green -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers

I boot to OSX and all software I run is free (as in beer not necessarily as in liberty), My only access to Windows is on old machines I have 'inherited' and occasionally fire up to check MS browsers.

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In reply to Richard Oelmann

FOSS vs. SaaS from the big in education

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Since it was said that the awareness of Free and Open Source Software (FOSS) is low in the Moodle community, here are some random pointers:

- Free Software and Education
https://www.gnu.org/education/education.html

- Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before
https://www.wired.com/2013/09/why-free-software-is-more-important-now-than-ever-before/

- Revolution OS, full 85 min film
https://www.youtube.com/watch?no=splash&v=4vW62KqKJ5A

BTW, yesterday, Saturday 21 September, was this year's Software Freedom Day https://www.softwarefreedomday.org/.
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In reply to James Steerpike

Re: I think we failed

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
> If I wanted to ensure my work was to a professional standard, I had to check and save in MS Office.

I understand. If the professional standard of your profession is MS Office, you have no alternatives. May be, I am one of the lucky ones: In my profession nobody tells me to produce Office documents, let alone in what standard!
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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: I think we failed

by Matt Bury -
Picture of Plugin developers

Re: professional standard, Microsoft, Adobe, & others have a history of bringing out new versions of their software that break compatibility with older versions. They want lock-in, not standards.

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In reply to Matt Bury

Re: I think we failed

by James Steerpike -

I think we owe a lot to Microsoft and IBM. The decision to split hardware and software between them gave us the low cost machines to play with Linux - unlike the other big player that locks its users into both hard and software.

Also very impressed by the Windows Subsystem for Linux. Having Ubuntu and other distros available from the Microsoft Store is  a world away from the time in 2001  when then CEO Steve Ballmer said  'Linux is a cancer' that contaminates all other software with Hippie GPL rubbish. (If you haven't tried WSL, do so. My personal opinion is it makes running a WAMP stack obsolete)

Counting up - I have a old netbook  and desktop running only Linux, a laptop dual booting, a Linux VPS and a main Win 10  machine running Ubuntu including my development Moodle in a WSL window. Two Windows, five Linux installs. We can all get along.

The latest news is there is a push to ban Chinese telecoms from the US. With the recent bans of technology transfer to ZTE and Huawei, could possible Chinese retaliation be to order government and companies to abandon US made proprietary software?

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In reply to James Steerpike

Re: I think we failed

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Hi James

> I think we owe a lot to Microsoft and IBM.

I don't. It is Microsoft which owns me. For a couple of my laptops I paid their "protection money" called Windows License fees, for something didn't want.

> The decision to split hardware and software between them

Who decided that? IBM made their PC architecture "open", so that anybody can make the software (or even clone the hardware!)

> gave us the low cost machines to play with Linux -

Agree IBM gave us the cheap "PC" to which GNU and Linus made the OS.

> unlike the other big player that locks its users into both hard and software.

Which one? Sun Microsystems, may be. Do they exist now?

> Also very impressed by the Windows Subsystem for Linux. Having Ubuntu and other distros available from the Microsoft Store is a world away from the time in 2001

You seem to get elated when you feel Microsoft under your fingers. No, I don't. Again, it has the opposite effect on me. Every time I must look at a Microsoft product, I feel humilated. My high feeling I still remember was, after jokeying with 36 floppy disks, I got Linux running.

> when then CEO Steve Ballmer said 'Linux is a cancer' that contaminates all other software with Hippie GPL rubbish.

Don't remind me of that. I get flash backs.

> (If you haven't tried WSL, do so. My personal opinion is it makes running a WAMP stack obsolete)

No, I haven't. Neither plan to do so. I never ran a WAMP stack, so can't make anything obsolete.

> The latest news is there is a push to ban Chinese telecoms from the US. With the recent bans of technology transfer to ZTE and Huawei, could possible Chinese retaliation be to order government and companies to abandon US made proprietary software?

Perhaps. The poisoned US politics is bound take the empire down the drain.
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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: I think we failed

by Matt Bury -
Picture of Plugin developers

Judging by the content of this thread, I think we can safely say that we are atypical users. The vast majority of people haven't even heard of Linux & would most probably give you a blank stare if you mentioned installing another OS on their laptop/PC or dual booting.

As the saying goes, you are not the user. There's a thing called the curse of knowledge*, which means that once you know something, it's impossible to imagine not knowing it. In this case, it's impossible for us to imagine what it would be like to not know how to use Linux, use software repositories, solve problems with web searches & on support forums, & get work done via the Moodle UI.

As far as I understand it, the majority of teachers got into education to work with people, not computers (perhaps researchers who have to teach are an exception). Any educational software has to overcome this hurdle. Both Google & Microsoft have adopted the same strategy of framing it as office software for educational purposes, which has been very successful because it meets teachers immediate needs & expectations. However, once teachers & admins get deeper into elearning on a routine basis & their requirements develop, only then will they start to see the drawbacks of trying to use a table-knife (office software) as a screwdriver (LMS). Unfortunately, the temptation then will be to declare that elearning it just too complicated & too much work to be feasible in many use-case scenarios, rather than to look into more efficient & effective tools to get the job done.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge

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In reply to Matt Bury

Re: I think we failed

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Hi Matt

You wrote:
> I think we can safely say that we are atypical users. The vast majority of people haven't even heard of Linux..

If that is the case (on moodle.org) this thread has been a good occasion to tell their story. Sometime back I made course called "The history of Free and Open Source Software and Linux" as an exercise in creating a self paced Moodle course. Need to dig for it.

> There's a thing called the curse of knowledge*, which means that once you know something, it's impossible to imagine not knowing it.

Well, this is something we need to be careful as teachers. I didn't know that this phenomena has its own name and being studied.

> As far as I understand it, the majority of teachers got into education to work with people, not computers (perhaps researchers who have to teach are an exception). Any educational software has to overcome this hurdle.

That comes as a surprise to me. It sounds all too feasible when you mention it. But isn't that an irony. What about those poor teachers who find a machine between them and their subjects, the BYOD I mean? It reminded me, I bring this subject in regular intervals. OK for me, if we don't take that tangent.

> Both Google & Microsoft have adopted the same strategy of framing it as office software for educational purposes, which has been very successful because it meets teachers immediate needs & expectations.

That is the whole question: What software do we need in education? For me they are subject specific, say network querying, manipulating and analysis tools, if the subject is TCP/IP. But I see too often that it is just the Office suite, in the best case, worst case, all converge to the "PowerPoint".
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In reply to Matt Bury

Re: I think we failed

by Marcus Green -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
'The vast majority of people haven't even heard of Linux & would most probably give you a blank stare if you mentioned installing another OS on their laptop/PC or dual booting.'
But they all 'use Linux' via the web browser client.
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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: I think we failed

by James Steerpike -
Elated? You bet I am.
95% of the people attempting to install Moodle have never installed Linux. Linux is too hard for them. Download an ISO. Burn to a USB so it is bootable. Answer a load of questions including one on partitioning a hard drive which if answered incorrectly could wipe Windows and all your files. Virtual machines? Again too hard. We are talking here about people who download Moodle, unzip it and expect it to work when they click it.
So they install Bitnami or a Windows executable on a Windows machine to play with. Then they go to a hosted site and use Softacolous because they don't know any better. Their site is rubbish and neither they nor anyone else can fix it.
Evil Microsoft has made it easy. Windows users can now install Linux working natively on their PC as easily as they can install Candy Crush, in a window which can access Windows folders, keep using the Windows environment and browser and where you can paste directly into a Linux CLI. The Ubuntu step by step guide takes them through to a full Moodle install. On Linux. If they screw it up, reinstall with a couple of clicks and start again with an install which is completely isolated from their Windows setup. Proceed to a Linux VPS and repeat the process.
That is the future for Linux. And yes, it does excite me.
Average of ratings: -
In reply to James Steerpike

Re: I think we failed

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Hi James

Your posts rain on observations you've made. I am too slow to see any connections between them. Now to the above post: You argue that, since installing and running a Moodle site is difficult for the unskilled person, they go to Google and Microsoft. Isn't that the nature of their concepts? Moodle is just software, you have to run it somewhere, whereas Google Education and Microsoft Edu Tools are SaaS, you don't have to run them on your own. So the statement is true, even if installing and running Moodle were easy, still the user has to do it, which obviously the noob can not do. Compared to doing nothing in the case of Google and Microsoft everything is difficult.

Then you say, when the noob design a Moodle site/course they are rubbish. Does is surprise you?

So Microsoft and Google collect those poor noobs, for a (different) price. That is the free market, isn't it? If there is abuse, those noobs are hardly in a position to resist, it is the duty of their respective governments to interfere, some are already doing just that.

There things are unsurprising to me. Hope, you'll understand that I don't have anything more to say. Perhaps some regular readers are happy too, to be spared of a boring discussion.
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: I think we failed

by Richard Oelmann -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
There are surely some unusual comparisons in that post, James - installing a piece of server side software (Moodle) is not going to be like installing a mobile/desktop app. Two completely different tools for two completely different purposes.
And if you want to compare using Moodle to using M$Edu or Google, then surely you need to be comparing it to a service such as MoodleCloud - sign up and away you go,like the services you are comparing it to - not trying to equate it to having to set up a subsystem, whether Linux on Windows, or WAMP, to get it running on your desktop (why would anyone even consider running such on a server?).

The services, whether through MoodleCloud or various Moodle Partners, exist to simply use Moodle in the same way as someone may use M$Edu, so choosing to self host implies actively making that choice to make use of (or learn) the required level of expertise to manage the server (or subsystem/WAMP/XAMPP/etc) that you need to host it on.
Average of ratings: Very cool (1)
In reply to Richard Oelmann

Re: I think we failed

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
> Two completely different tools for two completely different purposes.

Exactly! That is where the sub-thread FOSS vs. SaaS from the big in education comes in.

> if you want to compare using Moodle to using M$Edu or Google, ... not trying to equate it to having to set up a subsystem, whether Linux on Windows,

Not only that, you can even carry the "subsystem" in your pocket, when there is need. I mean the MoodleBox, a complete Moodle installation in a Raspberry Pi. Imagine taking your own M$Edu or Google G to the classroom.
tongueout
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: I think we failed

by James Steerpike -
My students do carry Moodle in their pocket, using mobile phones connected to a Moodle installation in Singapore running on Ubuntu 18.04. Available where ever they are. I can also access the site by phone, either as a Moodle admin or using ssh to the server itself.
The "subsystem" is not accessible by my students. It is a replica of my production server - Ubuntu, PHP, MySQL. I use it to test backups, experiment with new settings and themes. And it runs on a Windows desktop.
Average of ratings: Cool (1)
In reply to James Steerpike

Re: I think we failed

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Good point! I tend to forget the off-line capabilities of the Moodle mobile app. May be because I am almost never on smart phone.

Now we are at it, how smart-phone-friendly are MS OneNote and its Google counterpart?
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Richard Oelmann

Re: I think we failed

by James Steerpike -
You are correct in Moodlecloud is the direct competitor - sign up and away you go - to Google classroom. So why, as the original poster lamented, is Google classroom so widespread? How can we get more teachers using a real LMS?
Moodle is designed for teachers. Most teachers just want to teach and I think we don't do a very good job pointing where most potential new users should be going - Moodlecloud.
Go to Moodle.org and the heading "Setting up". The first link "Free download" looks inviting and we are straight on the download page. The big arrow takes us to the latest release and there is a Windows installer to download. Three clicks into the Moodle site for someone who has just heard about Moodle and you are installing!
What is missing here is the question - do you really want to install? There is a demo site, a sandbox and a free hosted service to experiment with but these alternatives are not clear to most new arrivals to the site. Instead they are directed to install a server application when for anyone less than 50 users, Moodlecloud is a no-brainer.
Our forums are full of confused installers and this is the tip of the iceberg. Every failed install is a potential convert who now thinks Moodle is "too hard".
So my suggestion - change the Moodle org web page so the alternatives to a download can't be missed. Put a sticky post on the install and update forum giving alternatives.
As for those who want more than a Moodlecloud account - the best option is Linux. Linux can take you all the way from your first experiments to a production site using exactly the same commands. Even with a Linux production VPS, a second Linux installation is essential to check restores, upgrades and changes before applying the changes to production. This is the path those who are capable of installing Moodle should be following. Up to now this required a second VPS, a virtual machine or a machine that can boot Linux. For me at least, running a copy of Ubuntu downloaded and installed from the Microsoft store on my Windows desktop is far more convenient.
Average of ratings: Very cool (1)
In reply to James Steerpike

Re: I think we failed

by Matt Bury -
Picture of Plugin developers

I agree that newcomers to Moodle who want to learn more about it should be first directed to https://learn.moodle.org/.

Why Is Moodle A Good Platform for Online & Distance Education & Training?

So for anyone who comes across this thread in the not-too-distant future, here's a summary & elaboration of how to get started & why Moodle is usually more appropriate for elearning needs than Microsoft's & Google's "Classroom" services.

  • Microsoft's & Google's online "classroom" SaaS are not learning management systems (LMS)/virtual learning environments (VLE). They are essentially desktop office software & although easy at first, don't have the functionality & features to easily manage students, classes/cohorts, courses, grades, certificates & digital badges, records of learning, discussion forums, chat, assignments.
  • The true competitors for Moodle are the other members of "The Big Four" LMS: Blackboard, Desire2Learn (D2L), & Instructure CanvasLMS. None of these options are free & open source software (FOSS) in the adaptable, flexible, community driven sense of the term.
  • The easiest way to try out Moodle for the first time is to go on https://moodlecloud.com/ and get a fully functioning (not a "Moodle lite"), including an integrated video, voice, chat, slides, interactive whiteboard service from https://bigbluebutton.org/. This is free for the first 50 users, up to 200MB storage, & no time limits, i.e. try it out for as long as you like for free smile
  • MoodleCloud is Moodle as software as a service (SaaS). Unless you're an IT person, most likely working for an education/training organisation, MoodleCloud is what you want.
  • Learn Moodle https://learn.moodle.org/ provides free courses (MOOCs) which help teachers & instructional designers get started & develop their skills with Moodle. They're Moodle community driven, so unlike most MOOCs, e.g. Coursera & EdX, there are lots of knowledgable & experienced Moodle users who can answer questions, offer guidance, & direct you to appropriate, useful resources. In other words, you can get much more individual attention & help which is specific to your particular needs. There are also independent 3rd party Moodle course providers & trainers available around the world at competitive prices.
  • If you decide to adopt Moodle & want to enrol more than 50 students, teachers, & admins, you can pay for managed hosting on https://moodlecloud.com/ or with a Moodle partner: https://moodle.com/partners/ This is also an appropriate option to follow for whole schools, regions, & other larger organisations.
  • If you're willing & able, you can host & maintain Moodle yourself. VPS services that can host Moodle (at least 1GB RAM & 20GB storage) currently start at around $5 per month.
  • If you do teach on a Moodle that is under the control of your organisation/institution, it's easier to negotiate the use of copyright materials for online learning content. This is really important as it directly affects the quality & quantity of courses you can (legally) offer, i.e. you don't have to write & design everything from scratch yourself (How long would it take you to write & design 200 hours of learning content? How much would that cost in salaried hours?).
  • You can also use Microsoft & Google office software alongside Moodle. There's nothing stopping you from having the best of both worlds. However, check your local laws, rules, & regulations about employee & student/pupil data privacy & protection, duty of care, right of audit, etc., e.g. the EU's general data protection regulation (GDPR). In some countries, e.g. Germany, Google & Microsoft have been declared unfit for educational purposes for these reasons. If Microsoft & Google don't change their data protection practices, more countries & states are likely to follow suit.
  • Microsoft's & Google's software is not free & open source (FOSS), which means you cannot get 3rd party IT contractors or staff to modify the software's functions & features to meet your specific needs.
  • Moodle provides a large repository of ready-made "plugins" https://moodle.org/plugins/ (currently 1,615), which are easy to install, & many of which are maintained by large educational establishments, e.g. government agencies, educational institutions & large corporations. In other words, developed by educators for educators to meet students', educators', & admins' needs. Microsoft & Google have conflicts of interest in this respect.
  • As yet, Microsoft & Google do not provide integration with 3rd party services, e.g. web conferencing, plagiarism detectors, learning content providers (e.g. https://moodle.net/), etc.. There is no incentive for 3rd party educational software developers to integrate their services with Microsoft's & Google's services; If a plugin is successful, it'd more than likely be copied & replaced by Microsoft's & Google's own software developers.
Also, Moodle support forums https://moodle.org/course/ are full of friendly, helpful, enthusiastic, experienced & knowledgable Moodle users (in multiple languages) who dedicate some of their valuable time to helping others with Moodle. I think that this is one of the most valuable things about Moodle: Free expert help & advice from the Moodle community. The community is also monitored by employed humans beings who, among other things, ensure that offensive & inappropriate posts, SPAM, etc. are removed.
Average of ratings: Coolest thing ever! (3)
In reply to James Steerpike

Re: I think we failed

by Marcus Green -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
'95% of the people attempting to install Moodle have never installed Linux. Linux is too hard for them."
95% of the people attempting to install Moodle have never installed Windows. Windows installation is too hard for them.
95% of the people attempting to install Moodle have never done their own dentistry, Dentistry is too hard for them.
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Marcus Green

Re: I think we failed

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
> 95% of the people attempting to install Moodle have never installed Windows.

True.

> Windows installation is too hard for them.

That we don't know. 95% of PCs and laptops come with Windows pre-installed.

> 95% of the people attempting to install Moodle have never done their own dentistry, Dentistry is too hard for them.

That is not a fair comparison. (Or, did you miss the smiley?) Forget dentistry, how many of us cut our own hair? Even that is out of discussion. We are not talking about our dear bodies not even about something organic. An OS, or any other software, is digital and volatile!
tongueout
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: I think we failed

by Marcus Green -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
I was going to add in the bit about cutting your own hair, though right at the moment I look like I cut my own....
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Marcus Green

Re: I think we failed

by James Steerpike -
I don't know what percentage of the people attempting to install Moodle would be better off with the free or low cost professionally hosted service Moodlecloud provides. I would guess at least half of them.
Linux install too hard? The only hard step was the partitioning and formatting of the hard disk. A step that could go drastically and irrecoverably wrong but is no longer required..
At the risk of flogging a dead horse - for Windows10  users installing Linux is only one step longer than installing Candy Crush.
  1. Open PowerShell as Administrator and run: Enable-WindowsOptionalFeature -Online -FeatureName Microsoft-Windows-Subsystem-Linux.
  2. Restart computer.
  3. Find Ubuntu in the Windows app store, click "Download" followed by "Install"
Linux on the Windows desktop. If a user can't manage that, they have no hope of installing a webserver,  datebase and PHP.
Average of ratings: -
In reply to James Steerpike

Re: I think we failed

by Mary Cooch -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators
Hi everyone. This is a great conversation and truly shows the breadth of experience and opinion of the Moodle community smile I do think, though, that we have veered away from"Teaching with Moodle" as a topic and I think that a more suitable place to continue this conversation (and I hope it continues) will be in the Lounge - as it covers several areas. I will wait a while before moving it to make sure you all get notified first...
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: I think we failed

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Hi Mary

Yes, we were sliding all over the place. Glad that we got the green light for that. There is a tiny mishap though. The Lounge with its "Coolest thing ever" kind of ratings is an odd place. The old ratings as "Useful" are all gone!
:-O
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Chad Parmentier

Re: I think we failed

by Derek Chirnside -
Fascinating comments here.
Two things:
  1. in 2017 I spent 120 hours back in the classroom.  Using Google Classroom.  One small thing: I could set up a small activity for my class in less than a minute.  I could see the pinging of the responses.  Loved it.  Yes, it's not like an LMS you want, but it had some good aspects.  I got a lot of really good learning out of Google classroom.
  2. I'm now back with Moodle [after a break].  It's great (maybe) for some large enrollment, lock step delivery, delivery mode stuff.  But interaction is hard.  Mostly, with OOTB Moodle say with with Fordson,  there are issues with deployment (lost of clicks needed, lack of responsiveness, navigation) clutter (how to simplify the hamburger menu, do basic stuff full screen) attractiveness (embedding stuff like Adapt, Evolve entities, H5P), editing (challenges with Atto and code handling, paste from word, labels).  It's Complicated.  Not loving Moodle so much.

My latest challenge scenario: deploy an activity consisting of a small video clip (or two) as input, have an associated file (maybe a PDF), have a small activity presented (in text) ideally on the same time as the video, have a place to enable a student to make a post on it (or upload something) - and a deployment of the various parts of this activity which looks nice, is intuitive, responsive, with simple navigation, reasonably easy to deploy and quick.  This is not simple, easy or straightforward in Moodle. [Although of course there may be a solution somewhere that I have not seen] 

Sure you can chuck a whole lot of these items in a Moodle section just listed down the screen (the Scroll of death).  I'd really like a bit more than this.  eg maybe three levels of navigation: section navigation, activity navigation and navigation between various parts of an activity.

I hope this doesn't offend some of you.  I'm sort of optimistic, and I'm on the lookout to see if anyone has anything really new in the "challenge scenario" I describe above.

I hope Chad things work out for you.  Lots of challenges in your post I have not addressed.

-Derek



Average of ratings: Very cool (3)
In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: I think we failed

by Cris Fuhrman -
I have to agree with the comments about the useability dimension. I have become even more allergic to clicks after returning from a 1-year teaching sabbatical (where I actually worked on an open-source project). I know from experience that usability is hard to attain in open source projects, where competent resources are limited.

This semester I am teaching two 35-student groups, each with its Moodle course. After one year away, I'm convinced Moodle's interface to instructors is just too click-heavy, especially when it comes to updating dates for activities and material (slide decks and exercises). I've written my own "hack" that helps with the dates, but so far I haven't found a way to update content easily.

The compromise for me this semester was to use a Google Drive for content, then put a link to it in the Moodle course section for content. However, the extra step to get to the content has really angered a lot of my students (who just want everything to be on Moodle). They spend a lot of time on Moodle passing the quizzes on the material, and having the two things split across platforms is (rightly) a hassle for them.

Starting in January, I have a small graduate class, and I will try it without Moodle and just Google Classroom. I realize Moodle quizzes and assignments have way more functionalities than I will get from doing it in Google Classroom (e.g., Google Quizzes won't give custom feedback for each wrong answer, which I exploit in Moodle quizzes). But, I'm questioning whether those details are worth the lost time and headaches of the whole Moodle experience, or something hybrid that angers my students. 

Actually I believe it is the (constantly growing) richness of settings in Moodle that is one of the causes of its poor usability (too many knobs to set). Maybe one day there will be a Moodle-Lite version that has only 20% of the features that 80% of most users need. I know there would never be a consensus about what those features are. I believe Google uses usage data to decide what features it deprecates; although I can't say for sure. I am pretty sure they have the data about what is being used.
Average of ratings: Very cool (4)
In reply to Cris Fuhrman

Re: I think we failed

by Stuart Mealor -
"Maybe one day there will be a Moodle-Lite version that has only 20% of the features that 80% of most users need. I know there would never be a consensus about what those features are."
Absolutely.
I used to think a Moodle-Lite distribution would be a good idea.
But as you say, the 80% is different is every case - we have clients that use Moodle 'mostly' for quizzes, others 'mostly' for forums, other 'mostly' for assignments.
Although it's not addressing the click question, I think the way to go is possibly the simplify the defaults - I guess Gradebook being  good example, where the defaults should make the Gradebook super basic, and only when you enable specific features do those become available.
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Stuart Mealor

Re: I think we failed

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
No, Moodle-Lite is not a viable solution. What do you expect, Moodle HQ to maintain multiple flavours of Moodle, Moodle for babies, Moodle for grown ups, etc.?

More realistic and already partly available is push the strong plug-in architecture further. More pieces and features should be unselectable, like already done for the blog, badges, keywords, etc.
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: I think we failed

by Marcus Green -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
I like the idea of Moodle for normal people.
Average of ratings: Very cool (1)
In reply to Marcus Green

Moodle for babies, Moodle for grown ups, for normal people (by normal people) [OT]

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Are you normal? Could you be more precise? What makes you think that you are normal?

Alice quote on that:
===
`What do you mean by that?' said the Caterpillar sternly. `Explain yourself!'

`I can't explain myself, I'm afraid, sir' said Alice, `because I'm not myself, you see.'

`I don't see,' said the Caterpillar.

`I'm afraid I can't put it more clearly,' Alice replied very politely, `for I can't understand it myself to begin with; and being so many different sizes in a day is very confusing.'

`It isn't,' said the Caterpillar.

`Well, perhaps you haven't found it so yet,' said Alice; `but when you have to turn into a chrysalis--you will some day, you know--and then after that into a butterfly, I should think you'll feel it a little queer, won't you?'

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rgs/alice-V.html

BTW, Marcus, you've forgotten the smiley. With or without one, I don't appreciate you taking my post as a joke. I was serious in my previous post.
sad
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Moodle for babies, Moodle for grown ups, for normal people (by normal people) [OT]

by Marcus Green -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
"Are you normal? "

Absolutely not.

I spend most of my waking time thinking about or working on things related to Moodle, and have done for a very long time. I am an evangelist for Moodle which means I am biased. This makes it hard for me to view Moodle as most of humanity, who know little and care less about it.

People who have posted in this forum are not normal as

1. They are reading these forums
2. Even more defining, they have posted in these forums

I am not suggesting that this is a good or a bad thing, just that it is an important perspective. +1 for normal people, +1 for Moodle enthusiasts.

"Could you be more precise? What makes you think that you are normal?"
See above.
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Marcus Green

Re: Moodle for babies, Moodle for grown ups, for normal people (by normal people) [OT]

by Cris Fuhrman -
My comment above about Google measuring usage (of what 80% of the people use most) is what will define 'normal' in a way that's hard to argue about. People expressing opinions in Forums is not the way to set software features; plenty of experts will tell you that.
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Cris Fuhrman

Re: Moodle for babies, Moodle for grown ups, for normal people (by normal people) [OT]

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Hi Cris

What do you mean: a) 80% of the people use Google. b) I use Google. Conclusion: I am normal?
smile

More seriously, I see that my choice of the subject line is misleading. When I said "Moodle for babies", they are not first babies and then moodlers, but the other way around: They are already moodlers, but still can not stand analogues to toddlers. But don't misunderstand, no disrespect meant. In fact it is the contraty: We don't look down at our babies (metaphorically), don't we?

Even more seriously, your post https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=390831#p1587092 qualify you to be not the "typical" Moodle user.
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Moodle for babies, Moodle for grown ups, for normal people (by normal people) [OT]

by Cris Fuhrman -
I realize normal is arbitrary (I'm definitely not normal!), but at some point it should be defined for the purpose of deciding what to pursue for the sustainability of a system.

Anecdote: The Moodle support team at our university told us at a meeting some years ago that 100% of Moodlers were using Moodle to distribute course content, that some lower percentage <50% were using quizzes, and nearly 0% were using Workshop activities. Their conclusion: do more training on workshop, since it's a great feature that's just being under-used.

My conclusion (having tried it!), it's a great feature, but the problem is how to work it into a good pedagogy (something the Moodle training people fail at, because they mostly do IT support). 

The reality is (as sad as this may be) a majority of the Moodle users will never create a Workshop, yet the source code, the tests, the application logic that is inside other classes, etc. remain and have a "cost" to the Moodle project. They take up time and energy, making the overall project harder to understand and extend. 

Now, take the same idea and apply it to those 20+ options to configuring a quiz, the numerous question types, the support for old browsers and versions of Moodle, etc. It's not about babies or grownups, it's about focusing a limited (open source) energy onto the things that affect the most users in a world where IT is changing super fast. I think it's what's happening at Google and Canvas and who knows what else.

Meanwhile, this semester's experiment is going very well with my course using Google Classroom. Do I miss the pedagogical value of customized feedback on wrong answers in multiple choice questions in Google Quizzes? You bet! But I'm also super happy not to have to give bonus points if students ask questions in the Moodle forums (which they hate). They're using comments in Google documents to ask me questions on the text they write (so much more precise). They ask public questions in the classroom "feed" (like Facebook) on the work I assign them. Those things have way more pedagogical value (to me) right now. Plus, the clicking for me to set things up is so much less. 

I realize I'm ignoring the "freeness" aspect and it's not an entirely fair comparison, but this is the real world.
Average of ratings: Very cool (1)
In reply to Chad Parmentier

Re: I think we failed

by Scott Christy -

I was surfing around the web trying to find a justification to continue to fight for Moodle in my district and came across your post. I SO can relate to what you're saying.

Though I'm a teacher and not part of our technology administration, I piloted Moodle in our district more than 8 years ago and have managed our local Moodle server ever since. 

We became a Google Apps district numerous years ago and as an IT teacher I've watched students computing skills decline ever since. Students now struggle with simple things on a non-browser based OS (like making folders and managing files for example!). It's so frustrating...but I digress...

Three years ago the district made Google Classroom it's standard across the district. Those of us still using Moodle, were permitted to be "grandfathered" in and keep using it. I even added features like using the Google repository so students could submit documents from Google Apps, and incorporated SSO so kids could easily log in, hoping to keep Moodle in the game so to speak.

This past spring when covid19 forced us to switch to 100% online instruction in a matter of days, we were told that for consistency for parents and students we had to switch to GC but again, as we were in mid semester when schools closed, those classes already running in Moodle were permitted to finish the year. Unfortunately, that was the end of the battle for Moodlers in our district.

I HATE that I'm going to have to switch to GC this year. It lacks so many features that are integral in my workflow - in particular the grading screen. Further, I'm a business and IT teacher so even though the rest of the district uses Google apps, I still need to function in the MS Office world for our business students as many of the classes I teach are for dual credit.

What is sad is that in our state, every state college uses Microsoft Office and Canvas as it's CMS. Again, I digress but it's a shame that we're producing all these Google apps users who struggle when they get to college or a job because they have to use MS Office and a real CMS.

Anyway, thanks for giving me a place to vent, commiserate, and mourn the loss of an integral part of what has made me a successful teacher the last 8 years. I'm not looking forward to converting the hundreds and hundreds of resources, assignments, quizzes, and other resources that I've built into my Moodle courses over the years, but unfortunately retirement is still 4 years away. 😎


Average of ratings: Cool (1)