The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Dom F發表於
Number of replies: 29

The Moderator has been kind enough to allow me   (officially!) to ask two questions...The first is one I ask every year about this time. 微笑

Do any of the fellow loungers here know the best online space/place to seek pro bono help with (mostly) Moodle css/jscript and responsive theme queries (not unlimited or open ended help but project based)

Secondly we'd like to find them (!)

 http://tinyurl.com/qeallgu

 http://tinyurl.com/m8kvnlt 

Any help or suggestions greatly appreciated (And if that happens to be you, then do let us know.

(Edited by Mary Cooch  to tidy up original formatting- original submission Friday, 8 April 2016, 1:45 PM)

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In reply to Dom F

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Mary Cooch發表於
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Hold on - by moderator, if you mean me, I haven't allowed you (officially!) to ask two questions; I merely responded to your query on twitter about the best place to ask for volunteer help and I suggested this lounge 眨眼

Anyway, asking if anyone can offer unpaid help is OK I think. To be honest though, I can't think of a place better than Moodle.org to ask for help, as this is where the biggest Moodle community members "hang out". I wish you well though because I think you'll struggle to find help at the level you require it, unless it is someone retired with a lot of time on their hands AND the skillset you need. But, fingers crossed.

In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Dom F發表於

I didnt feel that posting in Moodle jobs was appropriate. However if it is, then do let me know.

It is interesting, there is a LOT of #Drupal pro bono help amongst the communities but far less so in moodle for some reason. Also at the same time there is an active live IRC chat community with #Drupal but not with Moodle. (Just a passing observation) I am surprised by that, but don't want to change the discussion away from Moodle Pro Bono help. 微笑

In reply to Dom F

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Mark Johnson發表於
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If you're looking for *help* ("How do I x?") as opposed to *work* ("Can someone do x for me?"), then these forums are definitely the place to ask. The General Developer Forum is where most of the 'pro bono' support of this sort happens, there's also forums for more specific topics such as Themes which might be appropriate depending on your question.   I'm not aware of any support channels outside of the Moodle.org site that have really taken off.

If you do want someone to do something specific for you for free, I don't know what the official line on using the Moodle jobs board is, but if you indicate that it's unpaid in the "Position" I find it hard to see why anyone would object.

Don't be too surprised when you find that different communities focus on different modes of communication.  Each community will use what they find works best for its members.

In reply to Mark Johnson

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Dom F發表於

Sadly it looks like this isnt the place to post afterall 傷心


As I say finding Drupal project help is very easy, loads of experience finding folk. Moodle... a very different story. But I cant think why that is. I'd be curious for any thoughts why this is.

In reply to Dom F

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Derek Chirnside發表於

Some thoughts:

  • Moodle is a bit more complex (200+ tables compared to 74 in Drupal).  Moodle may be harder co code for.  (But I am not an expert)
  • In the docs, I note that Drupal has a much bigger core developers group.
  • Drupal actually powers quite a few commercial websites, and have big $$ sitting behind it to employ developers who do more stuff pro bono on the side.  Moodle is educational and has a much leaner budget.
  • There could be something about the way you have asked, but this is quite subjective.

Just to try to clarify: what exactly do you want to do that you can't do with plugins?  or themes?  I could not tell at all from your notes.

Good luck

-Derek

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In reply to Dom F

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Farhan Karmali發表於
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As Derek has already beautifully summarized it those could be reasons,

But I personally have found ALOT of help everywhere on these forums. Whatever I learnt about Moodle is through the forums.  Many people actually even take the pain to install plugins, install specific versions of Moodle that you have a problem with and then they try to help. So many people help with such detailed screenshots. Its one of the reasons why I love Moodle so much.

評比平均分數: Coolest thing ever! (2)
In reply to Farhan Karmali

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Dom F發表於

I think the problem is I just cant find them (For example I have had no private messages or post responses that say "Ok Dom, tell me what the issues are and i will try to have a look"

Almost all of the issues are to do with either CSS or Responsive issues, as well as some weird font behaviour, or WYSIWYG issues  - so I dont think there is any hairy-scary core code issues at all. But that doesnt change the fact that I would really love to know where to get some help....

If anyone is willing to take a look over half a dozen issues - please do reach out PM me.

And I promise, if I do get any help, I will add a post to this thread to prove I was wrong all along.

Until then it remains very much the case that .... 'Hey Guys - we need some help'



D

In reply to Dom F

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Dan Marsden發表於
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To be honest - I think you have it the wrong way round... posts like "Hi I need help" are of no interest to me as a developer. It just sounds like it's coming from someone that has not done any research or tried to fix the problem themselves.


if you have specific issues and want help for free you should post a description of each issue (including screenshots) in a forum post in the most relevant forum you can find here on moodle.org - then you will also get support from a community of users rather than relying on a single person.

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In reply to Dan Marsden

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Dom F發表於

I understand Dan, hence why I have illustrated the type of problems. and have a detailed list of problems which I would be happy to share with someone, anyone curious enough to offer their help. And that would be done more elegantly within a DM rather than a massive forum post spanning numerous posts and responses. (The forum as a meeting point to explain the issues in broad terms - and then moving on from there)

If I sound "just like someone who isnt bothered to look up the answers - then thats the wrong impression" I am "someone who doesnt want to "fiddle under the bonnet with things I dont pretend to understand" - as I am a content person (lecturer) not a coder or web page developer. It isnt about being too lazy (a common concern from developers, I appreciate) But I wouldnt recommend you have someone go away and do a self study course in gas repairs before having them start tinkering. In the same way I dont want to guess my way painfully slowly (as Ive tried that before with very bad results) and hope I dont "break anything"

So what I would much rather do is turn this thread back from a discussion about question styles and return to the original intention as suggested by the moderator - which is to say, I need help in these areas - is someone willing to consider helping.

I do hope that is the case. A single "tell me how I can help" will prove me wrong that help is hard to find. Until then...

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In reply to Dom F

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Marcus Green發表於
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It would probably add to this discussion to know that Dom has put an advert on the Moodle jobs listing

https://moodle.org/mod/data/view.php?d=54&rid=6945&filter=1

And I presume did not get much in the way of responses. I think this is an interesting topic, but I had better wait till I get home from my paid job to discuss further 微笑

In reply to Marcus Green

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Dom F發表於

Hi Marcus

That posting was from over a year ago.

Still hoping the debate shifts at some stage to "How can I help, Dom."  


D

In reply to Dom F

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Marcus Green發表於
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It was an interesting job offer because it was pro-bono and I remember at the time wondering if you would get any responses.   

If we can explore the issue of pro-bono Moodle work, what are the likely motivations, limitations and strategies, we might get closer to the 'help Dom' situation, though I But I'll come back to that later on.


In reply to Dom F

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Mike Churchward發表於
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"Almost all of the issues are to do with either CSS or Responsive issues, as well as some weird font behaviour"

So that sounds like you are looking for theme help. There's a forum for that. Try posting your specific question there.

Moodle has many forums with the intent to provide specific help to those topics. These forums are moderated by various members of the community. They are doing it "pro bono". So these forums are what  you are looking for.

This forum, "The Lounge", is not a help forum by definition.

mike

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In reply to Mike Churchward

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Dom F發表於

Hi Mike,

As per (quite a few) previous posts (and the original OP) this is request for help in a *specific area, across a number of issues* not just one.

It is for help from an individual willing to say "OK Dom, tell me the issues you're having and I will see if I can take a look"

As to why I posted HERE, I checked with the moderator before doing so, so.....

As I say, can I humbly ask (again)  if the focus of the responses can return back to the original nature of the request, and not how/who/where/why/what/whether comments. Its a simple request, politely made, but it is disappointing to have observations and opinions when Im really asking "Guys can someone help"

If there are more responses in the  "how/who/where/why/what/whether" category then you'll have to forgive me if I dont response as I kind of have done that several times giving the same answer each time. 

If anyone willing to take a look at this group of issues - that would be much appreciated -  If not, then please,  can I ask as nicely as possible - dont comment. This post is not aimed at you. Many thanks.

In reply to Dom F

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Mike Churchward發表於
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Hi Dom -

I guess you didn't understand my answer. I believe your original question was about getting "pro-bono" help. The best place I know of for pro-bono help is right here, in the forums on moodle.org  But you will need to do the initial work of determining what question you should ask and in what forum. If you are looking for a consultant/expert to work with you, one-on-one, for free (is that what you are asking?), then I don't know where you would go.

Hope you find what you are looking for.

mike

In reply to Mike Churchward

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Dom F發表於

Hi Mike,

I did understand your reply, but I dont have many more ways to explain my requirement, and it wouldn't seem like the best use of anyones time to repeat it again. But out of an abundance of good will toward man and beast...

I need a person, a volunteer, a good guy, a consigliere to look over a group of related issues - very short term pro bono project help. Someone to say " Dom - let me have your list of related issues - and I will do my best to take a look and see what I can do" Not drip feeding one question at a time, and then spending weeks trying to put into action each one of the (to me) complex code related technical advice and guidance and multiple steps - that might or might not follow from scattering the project across different posts, threads and debates.

This is the forum I have been told would be the best one - perhaps no such forums exist. I dont know. But again, as before I'll await that "Dom , let me do away with all the discussion and see how I can help" - To anyone else - this post probably isnt aimed at them. 

I'm truly sorry, I really have run out of different ways of explaining this.

In reply to Dom F

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Marcus Green發表於
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To attempt to answer your original question, the only source of free Moodle advice I have come across since 2003 is these forums and if a question is well asked the quality of advice is very good. Responses are frequently from people with deep knowledge of the code involved. For example if I had not actually met Tim Hunt, the quiz maintainer I might suspect the name was a front for a committee of Quiz question answers distributed around the globe to cover all time zones.

To move to your last posting I think the Lounge is a good place to ask where and how you might get free advice/help. I think your post in the job database a year ago was a good idea but you need to consider the motivations of people who might give such help.  So if money is not involved there can be other motivations such as to gain experience/raise profile, work with in interesting area where the person might advance themselves. I thought your advert went some way to this where you said 

"Your learning design work will involve materials and inputs from film studios, broadcasters, film experts,  the BBC, Sky, Channel 4 and other UK and US creative partners in a learning resource that has some of the most extensive, most professional High Def video masterclass training in film and TV for 14-24s anywhere in the world."

There are people who consider this to be a glamorous area to work, however such people might be light on Moodle expertiese.

For every day stuff (rather than problem solving) I think it would be possible to get help by forming relationships with FE colleges or HE computer science courses with opportunities for students to get experience on "real systems".

I have done a great deal of Moodle development "for free" but I prefer to do work that will benefit the widest number of people so I don't do it for anyone in particular but create freely available plugins. Having said that I have added features and done fixes for specific people when asked.  But I have now been thinking about and writing this for quite a while and I have some plugins I could get back to working on for the public good.....

P.S. Have I come closer to an answer? If not post again, I think it is an interesting question.



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In reply to Marcus Green

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Gareth J Barnard發表於
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Hi Dom,

In my mind I seem to remember either an advert about the theme a few years ago with your site when it was just starting out.  But it was not paid work, so I turned it down as I have many other 'free' contributed themes and course formats out there.  The same is still true.  The thing is that Moodle can be complex, it has taken me many hours / days / weeks / months over several years to get as good as I am now with Moodle Themes and course formats.  That is a considerable personal investment.  I suspect the same is true of other Moodle developers.

Looking at your theme it is bespoke.  Maintaining themes and course formats even between Moodle versions takes hard work.  For example, look at the effort I go into maintaining Essential, Shoehorn, Collapsed Topics etc.  For example, with Essential, since I took over (with David Bezemer at the time) there is at least one issue per calendar day - currently the count is 649.  Therefore I believe that you will find it difficult to get somebody to fix your specific theme / problems without some sort of remuneration.  The code might be GPLv3 and open source but time is not.

Perhaps you might be better off looking at free contributed themes, seeing which ones best suit you and are customisable through the user interface.  Most contributed developers that I know will fix issues when they are reported.  Enhancements are another issue.  Therefore by using an existing contributed theme (and other plugins) you gain and also give back to the community by helping to fix issues (even if you just report and describe them) for the benefit of all.

Kind regards,

Gareth

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In reply to Gareth J Barnard

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Marcus Green發表於
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I agree with Gareth, use a popular theme and customize through its built in settings.  Either avoid customization to a very bare minimum. I recently spent time converting a theme from compatibility with Moodle 2.8 to 3.0. If it had been a contributed theme that would have been a day spent doing sometime more productive.

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In reply to Dom F

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Richard Oelmann發表於
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The Moodle.org forums are the best place to find unpaid volunteer support that I have come across in any open (or closed) source project and the most helpful online community I have come across.

You compare the community to Drupal's with adverse comments about how they provide 'pro-bono' work and Moodle doesn't. Can I ask who you think pays those of us who support the community forums then? I can guarantee I have never been paid an penny for any of the support I provide in the community forums - it is ALL 'pro-bono'.
TBH, It probably doesn't help either that your request in the linked document in your OP reads like a high paying developer job spec, but gives no details of the actual work you want done, or that you start off by asking for a Moodle developer with Drupal experience, and by the bottom of the page state that you are looking for a 'passionate Drupal guru', and then you enter into a conversation that complains that no-one wants to provide your company with free support.

'It is for help from an individual willing to say "OK Dom, tell me the issues you're having and I will see if I can take a look"' - I will rephrase Mike's suggestion earlier and put it in your terms.

Tell US the issues in a forum post (or series of forum posts as that will be easier for us to manage) and WE (as an entire community with varied and often complementary expertise, time availability and experiences) can take a look.

We will also then be able to do what many of us are in these forums for, which is share that knowledge on a wide scale so that it helps others who may have similar interests. That is the nature of these free - 'pro bono' open communities - the sharing of knowledge. If you want to keep that knowledge personal and closed, you want one-one support (losing out on the wide range of expertise available by focussing on support from one individual) or your issues are so site specific to you that you feel they cannot be reasonably shared with the community, then you will need to give someone a good reason to provide that support. That may be in paid remuneration, or it may be in a learning challenge for them as developers (my most recent theme was created for a client who wanted me to use a different layout structure and I was prepared to do that very cheaply for them because it was a. a learning challenge for me and b. they were happy for me to release the unbranded results of my work to the open community for everyone to benefit). But a plea of 'I need help - DM me to say you'll do it'... well, I think you have found the level of response for that approach and have decided to turn that into a warped view of 'Moodle community doesn't provide pro-bono help'.

Put your queries in the relevant forums, state your level of expertise so we know what kind of support to give you, but be prepared to do some reading and some learning yourself and you will find a very helpful supportive (and free) community to back you up. Requests for someone to commit to an undisclosed level of support over an undisclosed time frame on a custom solution just for you because you won't/don't want to are most likely to get the kind of level of response you have encountered. It comes across as contrary to why many of us are active in these open forums.
We do give our time and support freely - 'pro bono', but the 'quid pro quo' for that is usually openness in the questions raised, the support given and the solutions provided, as well as the opportunity to share expertise with others on the community and to learn from each other.
And to be honest, if you'd followed that advice on Monday, when it was first given, you'd probably already have your answers and solutions by now.

And to your question "Guys can someone help" - yes, if you do what has been suggested and post in the relevant forums then lots of people will help, its what we do and you HAVE been given that answer as many times as you seem to think you have repeated your request. Yes, people can and will help and yes that help will be for free - in the relevant open forums.
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In reply to Richard Oelmann

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Derek Chirnside發表於

Dom, as others have said, a fascinating thread.  It is shining a bit of scrutiny on how Moodle works as an ecosystem.

Reading over the posts in response to your question, I think the message is clear.  In general, Moodle.org as an ecosystem doesn't operate the way you want.  I appreciate your efforts to bring new perspectives, but it is what is is.  I am reminded of Kennedy's quotes about what could be.

“There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?” 

“The purpose of life is to contribute in some way to making things better.”

Your early comment says:

Almost all of the issues are to do with either CSS or Responsive issues, as well as some weird font behaviour, or WYSIWYG issues  - so I dont think there is any hairy-scary core code issues at all. 

Later on you say: 

Not drip feeding one question at a time, and then spending weeks trying to put into action each one of the (to me) complex code related technical advice and guidance and multiple steps - that might or might not follow from scattering the project across different posts, threads and debates.

The other guys (Richard, Marcus, Garath, Dan etc) have commented on this, but here is my take and I'm sorry to dispense advice:

Have some clarity in your requests, start a thread which includes the top priority questions, and things will happen.  Your prognistications of doom and confusion and complexity if you do this - I'm not sure these are true.  I don't see where you get the idea about complexity and scattered across threads etc.  This is a feature, not a bug, and to a large extent works.  Generally.  I may be wrong of course.

I have a suggestion

My next suggestion about using the forums If you can't find your personal pro bono helper, and if you don't want to do it yourself.  

Moodle is based around PHP.  

  1. Find any PHP developer who will give you a bit of time.  
  2. Get them to help you by asking on the forums here.  ( - even if they are Drupal specialists, even if they are Y12 coders from a local computer club, Year 3 computer science students, they can work a bot on Moodle code)  
  3. Give them your 13 problems.  
  4. Get them to post your questions here and see what happens.  (Read the posts by Dan, Mike and Marcus - I think they are right)   
Usually the responses will be quick - and able to be followed by a non-specialist Moodle coder - and fixed on your system.

In other words, if you don't want to put in the time here to make some posts and work on the issues, see if you can find a local PHP friend to help. 

Caveat - an aside about themes

Hidden in this thread is some good advice about themes etc.  Be wary you don't create a customised Moodle unmaintainable monster.  Themes, formats and plugins are your friend.  You say "CSS or Responsive issues".  This often is a theme issue.  In quote 1 above you think the fixes are simple.  In quote 2 you say complex.  But it probably is a theme issue.

[OT] Other comment

I detect a little titchiness sometimes in your posts.  If you like Drupal so much, you may find better personal satisfaction in the drupal-LMS intersection.  Some links:

  1. https://www.drupal.org/node/2088931
  2. https://groups.drupal.org/elms
  3. https://www.elmsln.org/
  4. https://groups.drupal.org/node/356973
  5. https://groups.drupal.org/node/219814

This is the ELMSLN latest video (from last week) in their planning towards 2020


But the old adage applies: beware the simple statement of a goal.  It may be very very complex to attain.

My 2c worth.

-Derek


In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Dom F發表於

Dear Derek


I have tried to be polite (please re-read my emails its there throughout) but suggesting "titchiness" does tend to make me slightly tetchy (the word I think you meant). Let me explain why...

As developers we/they/you will always see the solution incredibly simply, "ask and ye shall receive" in the same way if you're holding a hammer everything looks like a nail. If you're a developer, then everything looks like a straightforward "just allow people to help you Dom" solution if "you can just be bothered to put in the work" (or in your own words "

if you don't want to put in the time here to make some posts and work on the issues")

If I had a car problem, and I was in a Vauxhall engineers discussion forum, or a CORGI gas engineers  - you can imagine the temptation of offers to have a fiddle with the gas regulators "go on just listen to what people are saying" -- changing your locked differential and big end are a simple 19 step process....

Let's go back to first principles.  The reason for setting up this project was because there is a major problem in the field of moving image education, This is it :

http://tinyurl.com/zr4grq7

Can you image having maths teachers teach maths who don't know how to add up a shopping bill? Or a French teacher trying to teach a language that they have never spoken? Thats why we exist.

But that's something you're trying to suggest here. "Just ask the questions, follow the steps and fix the problems one by one" Speak French- stop being lazy, I know you dont speak French but just ask someone and they will give you the right translation. Problem is its not just French, theres french where any spelling mistake is critical, where you need know the exact location, line and spelling for each surgical correction. - Where every phrases interconnects with another and where you need special understanding of a number of different other tools to make each change.

I could go on.

So its not "if you don't want to put in the time here to make some posts and work on the issues" That makes me tetchy yes (when I keep being told that by developer after developer) 

Thats why I am asking to find someone willing to help, I have a series of Ancient Greek texts that I dont just need to understand, but need to surgically correct / insert - and get it 100% (and doing so requires a clear knowledge of the Aramaic, Hebrew and Phoenician which are the other interconnecting languages that go with it (PHP, javascript, Responsive CSS object models, FTP tools, cpanel, the list is not completely endless) , And it is ironically exactly why you then suggest "why don't  you can find a local PHP friend to help. "

Thats just my point, the Moodle forums ARE that local friend. A community which is local by understanding, local by conceptual grounding, and technical experience.

"He's just too lazy"

When someone says - with enough clear headedness  -  they know enough to know they don't know enough, and are looking for a specific, time limited, problem fixed investment of time - that should be a very reasonable outlook, that should be laboured with accusations of laziness (which I do get bothered by as I have managed to create the UK's largest single online learning space, with more high definition masterclasses than anywhere else (thats a paraphrase description by the Director of Education at the British Film Institute) -  completely on the good will of 12,500 man hours of film industry expert time from practitioners willing to give up their time to explain in great detail how their role works, often in great detail - so that teachers and students have more than "here's a camcorder - go and figure it out" Every one of those masterclasses I have booked, sought permissions, filmed, produced, edited, and added text graphics, photos and assessments to. And i have done it with almost no funding, certainly for the last five years  So you can understand why I push back just a little against ideas of "just get on with it" with a degree of resistance. I'm not generally a "lazy person who cant be bothered to do things" 

Could I have "had a go" at presenting some of those tutorials. Of course. But as someone who has a national qualification in the training of teachers, who train teachers, I know how much having an Oscar winning cinematographer explain a process - is much more meaningful than "me or my mate having a go" the web is full of that sort of content. Not this site.

Ok so having addresses why I shouldnt "just have a go" for quite a few different reasons, let me finally speak to the suggestion of moodle bashing.

I love Moodle, its clear there is little competition. Martin did something I believe in myself when we both decided to undertake a major project in the hope it would impacts kids lives. Sure it has its faults, I personally think (please dont have a go here) that it has very limited multi-site client functionaility (Martin freely admits that) and using groups for a resource aimed at delivering a small number of courses to a large number (100,000) doesnt work wel.. (Unlike Tim's incredible work for the OU where he h]has a different challenge, loads of different courses to loads of learners - what moodle works well at - and no - I dont feel ELIS or IOMAD and the other projects really help much as those "multi-tenancy" implementations dont address the need for "small numbers of courses" used by vast numbers (I wont get ibto that debate - thats for another thread) I also feel therefore that the relentless multiple updates every year adding certain features might be better addressed on such issues Ive just raised, or making moodle easier for people to look nice without a lot of technical knowledge. But I do love moodle, thats why I use it, thats why every months we see BB buying up another chunk of moodle real estate (because blackboard makes learning hard work, like using a telephone directory - with the same excitement, thats why as a former teacher, head of department, senior lecturer, adjunct professor, BBC producer (but NOT coder) I often see posters at schools and uni's pleading with kids "lets have a blitz on blackboard" because no one likes it. And if Blackboard can beat moodle, it has to buy it.

So I like Moodle, for all its faults. Just like the EU, modern democracy, and even myself, all have faults.

Mine is simply that as Alexander Pope once said "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing", and that is never more true of website tinkering, and Moodle is a rich and complex beast.

So I appreciate all the contributions. I'll go back to posting on the jobs website, and (ironically on Drupal where I have rarely had many problems recruiting short term help - dont ask me why - and dont beat me over the head)

But as i conclude my last comment (and it really will be my last comment on this discussion) let me make a passing suggestion to any lurkers, to the wonderful and transformational Martin, or core developers like Mike or anyone that wants a view from someone who works in hammers not drills. In the world of legal help, non profits have LawWorks, in the world of Accounting the ICAEW has a dating agency for non profits seeking / desperate for accounting help. With Drupal - well they dont have a volunteers section as for whatever reason, through a very active IRC channel and through the Drupal community - there are local groups across the UK and beyond where you really can (please believe me) find Drupal gurus. And I hope that saying that - doesnt make me a moodle basher _ I hope Ive addressed that too.

So to end where i began - with not too much luck but certainly plenty of debate - some criticism and some considered suggestions also - if there is anyone willing to say "Hey Dom - I get it - you just need some Moodle CSS / jscript / responsive HTML on a few areas - lets talk" - please do send me a PM / DM (whichever it the correct word)

But as my plate is really quite full juggling more plates that an social entrepreneur should have to - you'll understand that continuing the debate about "whether Dom should be asking" instead of "how Can I help Dom" means I have to step out, unsubscribe from the thread, and thank all those for their kind - though yes occasionally misplaced suggestions and debates. I cam looking for help, and ended up instead with a debate. Thats no bad thing. Most people agree it has been illuminating, but I have to get back to finding SOMEONE willing to reach out and help.





In reply to Dom F

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Marcus Green發表於
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When looking for people to work without pay or on a pro-bono/charity basis one of the issues will be how appealing the subject area is. So it might be that film history is less appealing that competing areas a person could work for. It's easier to get contributions for a sad eyed donkey charity than a snake charity (and I am not comparing the history of films with snakes in this scenario).


In reply to Dom F

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Derek Chirnside發表於

What did you think of my suggestion Dom about using help from a local PHP guy to work on your problems?

-Derek

In reply to Dom F

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Richard Oelmann發表於
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Um - there is no debate about 'whether Dom should be asking' - without doubt you should be, but you seem to reject every single bit of advice being given about how to ask and how to get that free help you want and keep pushing back saying no-one is prepared to provide it. You have been told over and over again how to go about getting that free support and help within the community forums but because it doesn't match your image of what you want your only response for all the words can be filtered down to 'no-one will change their volunteering contributions to do it the way I want it done and they should because another community does it that way'.

The support you want IS available, it is available from a community of experts, and it is provided very successfully through the open community forums. You have been told that as often as you feel you have posted the question. So, as you obviously feel we are not listening to you, the same can be said in reverse. The help HAS been offered and you have been told how to access that help. You are not wiling to fit in with the way the Moodle community works and expect us to bend over to the way you want to work. Well, as has also been pointed out, if you want someone to do that you have to provide a good reason for them to do it.

You still haven't. You have provided a detailed explanation of why your project means so much to you, not a reason why a community member should give up their time and effort to help a single individual who is not prepared to post in the open forums as suggested repeatedly.

"Thats just my point, the Moodle forums ARE that local friend" - But you wont use them! All you have done is raise a post in the lounge asking for someone to contact you to discuss your needs and rejected all the advice given about how the forums actually work.

No-one has suggested 'laziness' - we are all well aware of the time constraints put on people who volunteer their services to a community project. Perhaps you need to consider that the forum members who provide that kind of support have similar constraints on their time as well! Hence the need to provide a good reason for stepping outside the open way we would normally work in the forums that you seem to have such as issue with. We are all also very well aware that a huge number of us came to Moodle support as teachers, lecturers, tutors, trainers and not as developers. That so many people from those backgrounds are prepared to put their own time into not just learning Moodle for themselves, but sharing that expertise with others is a testament to the way the open community forums work, whether it suits your particular vision for your support requirements or not.

Good luck with your job posts and with requesting the help from a different community that works in a manner closer to your expectations.
評比平均分數: Very cool (3)
In reply to Richard Oelmann

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Dom F發表於

Happened to catch you post Richard  - and totally reject it.

There is world of difference between A....   asking if anyone is willing to help on a fixed-duration specific project... and  B ... breaking that project down into a hundred questions and spreading them across all the moodle forums and handing out FTP and super-admin accounts to all involved.

If you really truly just cannot see that distinction (and it does genuinely seem that you cant) , then there isnt much more I can say . Just dont publicly bleat about messenger a d bash them over the head because you "don't get it". Some of the other respondents did and volunteered to happily help. K?

And if you need further evidence try googling "pro bono moodle"   (two results for the entire web, and both of them are from me)  and then try  googling "pro bono drupal" (304 results - not huge but 150 times more) I use both. They are both great tools, but the search results are revealing (and  very objective - so please dont "have another go at me there too" OK?

There is a genuine issue here. If you choose to ignore google stats thats up to you. But dont gripe at the messenger. Im not going to engage with (or be checking back for)  unfairly critical posts like yours.

And as for your sarcastic oh-so passive aggressive "good luck with your posting" sign off.. Less of that please

 It's childish and not appropriate for these forums.

評比平均分數: Not very cool (2)
In reply to Dom F

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Richard Oelmann發表於
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EDIT: Comment removed from themes forum

The stats are not relevant - all they prove is that the two communities work in different ways. ALL the support on the Moodle community is pro-bono as has been pointed out to you countless times. That is how the moodle community works - as has been pointed out to you countless times.

But having engaged with you and provided an amount of that requested support and investigated your site directly for you (at personal expense of time that I really didn't have but was trying to help as much as possible), I will not be continuing following this attitude.

Dom - please remove the password you gave me for your site to provide the help I have while trying to get you to engage the way the MOODLE community works. I will not be providing any more for someone who decides to insult me in this manner.

評比平均分數: Coolest thing ever! (2)
In reply to Dom F

Re: The Perennial Moodle question. Where do the Moodle Pro Bono developers live?

Derek Chirnside發表於

Lured away from my work to post.  微笑

Dom, this is a fallacious argument, sometimes referred to as the Law of the Excluded middle. (1)

You have set up two poles, and have ignored what Richard really has said as a third (middle) option.  'hundreds' (in your B is hyperbole.  A straw man arguement.

Seriously.  You really are not doing yourself any favours in your recent posts here and in the other thread.  There are ways to think and operate with technology that are helpful and productive; and ways that are not.  You seem to be caught up in what Carol Dweck calls a "Fixed Mindset"(2).  I could feel a blog post coming on here "Disciplines to be successful as a technology dabbler that you can learn".  I'll not elaborate now, but I can if you want.

-Derek

(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle

(2) Dweck: https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/01/29/carol-dweck-mindset/

評比平均分數: Coolest thing ever! (4)
In reply to Derek Chirnside

Note from moderator

Mary Cooch發表於
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I've deleted a couple of posts from this thread, in line with the Site policy here.

Everyone, please show respect and consideration to others, even when their view differs from yours.


評比平均分數: Cool (1)