Should I study my degree online? – live Q&A on the UK's Guardian newspaper website

Should I study my degree online? – live Q&A on the UK's Guardian newspaper website

by Matt Bury -
Number of replies: 15
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Should I study my degree online? – live Q&A

Curious about distance learning? Join us between 12-2pm on Thursday to discuss the pros and cons of learning online

http://discussion.theguardian.com/discussion/p/3zk59?orderby=oldest&per_page=50&commentpage=1

The panel

Hannah Morton-Hedges is a careers adviser offering information and guidance to all ages through her company Momentum Careers Advice

John Woodthorpe is a lecturer in the computing and communications department of the Open University (OU), responsible for the level one module "My digital life" which is delivered online twice a year to a total of around 1500 students per presentation. He is also an OU tutor looking after a group of 20 students

Nick Entwistle works for the National Union of Students developing policy on university and college-level study. He specialises in issues affecting mature students

Mariana Lilley is the programme tutor for the computer science online degree programme at the University of Hertfordshire

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In reply to Matt Bury

Re: Should I study my degree online? – live Q&A on the UK's Guardian newspaper website

by dawn alderson -

Hi,

Interesting. I enjoyed reading the associated comments-some very insightful, others a bit armchairish jocular.

Nevertheless, I didn't manage to find any related research, development, evidence- references, shame.

I noticed one post made reference to Prof Mary Beard, in that the Cambridge Don apparently claimed the need for MOOCS is in paid-for HE universe...and therefore run risk of excluding some, not sure if this is true of course. 

I undestand Mary is extremely well versed in historical matters.  Yet, a salient point can be adressed here; Prof Beard also campaigned to keep female faces on banknotes....and as a consequence was bombarded with abuse on Twitter for it........rampantly!  Hmmmmm.......apples, oranges....blackberries and Strawberries.........like- not- like comparisons.

With respect, I wonder if there are enough experts out there to really do justice to the potentiality, value and opportunities afforded by distance/online education 'for all'-where data/research, theory and practice underpin such discussion....otherwise the social world- Twitterland (lots of em) will find/and fill the gaps for sure! 

Just some rambly ramblings as per smile         

Thread=A missed opportunity, IMO.

Dawn

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In reply to dawn alderson

Re: Should I study my degree online? – live Q&A on the UK's Guardian newspaper website

by Jez H -

MOOCS are becoming little more than lead generation for paid courses.

Drop off rates are horrendous. Dont see anyone ever wanting to pay for them with somlittle direct support from lecturers. The web is a MOOC and MOOC's ealled gardens within it.

As for research on distance learning I imagine the OU have done a fair bit over the years ;)

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In reply to Jez H

Re: Should I study my degree online? – live Q&A on the UK's Guardian newspaper website

by Matt Bury -
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Hi Jez,

Re: MOOCs, even Sebastian Thrun of Stanford AI MOOC fame, admits that they're only suitable for supplementary courses.

This guy lays it out pretty well: http://neoacademic.com/2013/01/23/if-you-believe-in-moocs-you-are-assuming-too-much/

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In reply to Matt Bury

Re: Should I study my degree online? – live Q&A on the UK's Guardian newspaper website

by dawn alderson -

Hey,

RE: 'If you believe in MOOCs you are assuming too much'....Do you love headlines that are in place to draw in the reader in order to then follow an off-centre point of view, supported by that headline? I don't big grin

Read this piece by S thrun, Jez.  Thanks.  Twas a measured account, in many respects, fair play. BUT...'MOOCs are a craze like big data'....nope, big data has its place e.g. learner analytics, but that is not to say one needs to agree with the way in which big data works/is processed of course.  MOOCs, are not a craze....rather the whole show is here to stay-and will evolve, for sure.

Essentially what the article lays out is a summary of the state of play with grainy assumptions...as I said, supported by the reversed psychology in the title....(you are assuming too much-yet the writer makes shameless, unsupported (no evidence/research) assumptions...circlular moment here-going to need to lie down in a mo! wink).

There is a complete absence in terms of how things might be moved forward for possible progress across the article.  Circles.....circular....round and round and round we go la la la........... tongueout

Dawn

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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In reply to dawn alderson

Re: Should I study my degree online? – live Q&A on the UK's Guardian newspaper website

by Jez H -

There are stats on the completion rates for MOOC's, i.e. compare the number of registrants with the number of people completing the course. It makes pitiful reading.

What does a MOOC offer me that the web does not? I can learn about any topic I choose and engage with knowledgeable communities on almost any topic i choose. In a MOOC I am limited to the content the creator saw fit to provide and I have to rely on the support peers who probably know less about the topic than I do.

A simple example for me would be comparing http://learn.moodle.net/ with the array of tutorials and information available on moodle.org and other sources. learn.moodle.net gave newcomers a great start and was a good introduction to Moodle and its community.

MOOCs maybe a good introduction (taster) to a topic and the commercial offerings of the organisation providing it but little more IMO.

Distance / Blended learning on the other hand has great but for the most part still un-tapped potential. I think part of the problem there is academics fear it. Specifically they fear it being used in a cost cutting exercise which will see them replaced with off the shelf content and automation.

If you read some of the responses to Khan Academy you get some idea of the level of resistance. If you listen to what Sal Khan has to say he talks about "moving teachers up the value chain" which in plain english means automating repetitious tasks like content delivery (standing in front of a projector with three year old power point slides for the nth time) and focusing on direct interaction with learners.

I think teachers see that, but also know only how government agencies will see it... as a cost cutting opportunity. Automate the content delivery without re-investing that time in direct support.

I think Students particularly in the US also see this where "distance" providers turn out to be low grade operators after a quick buck and it is from here that the question "what is the value of an online degree" originates (that and degree mills).

If you contrast that with the OU you will see their materials, support and IT are very high quality and the cost of the courses reflects that. They do not focus on doing it cheaper, they focus on high quality flexible delivery.

OU degrees carry weight in the UK as they have high standards, require a lot of work and demonstrate a high level of commitment, self discipline and determination and on the part of the learner.

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In reply to Jez H

Re: Should I study my degree online? – live Q&A on the UK's Guardian newspaper website

by dawn alderson -

Dear chaps, 

I am sure you won't mind me intervening in the back-slapping boys' club here.....kiss

But, when given the option of just agreeing to let the back-slapping prevail-you know humour you folks (althouhg easier IMHO)...or the option of stepping forward with a point of view...in view of the peeps in this thread...well the sun is shining here..and so I thought I would do the latter wink

Here goes....hope you are comfortable there....and I do not expect a very cool or cool or whatever else you chums do to support each other's point of view. LOL!

Jez, some things:

thing 1.......I agree about completion rates.

2. 'What does a MOOC offer that the web cannot?'  I would say depends on which MOOC.

3. 'in a MOOC I am limited to the content the creator sees fit to provide' Disagree. Participation can involve drawing on own related experience in reference with additional self-chosen content that can be shared to build and apply knowledge.

4. 'Rely on support of peers-who prob know less about the topic than I do' Suggest an ego-check Jez big grin

5. 'MOOCs maybe a good intro (taster) to a topic etc etc.... e.g. Http://learn.moodle.net/   Right, I will echo my previous point here:

Analogy: Oh look spilt milk all over the floor! It is white, cold, slippery and has glass bits in it.....but it can be cleaned up IF WE DO A,B,C,D.....so the environment can be improved for those who wish to walk over the area....Now, I have described a state-of-play, but I have also suggested a plan to move forward e.g. A,B,C,D-nowhere in the research, literature, big data and so on...appear to have reached this place yet 'a plan for movement forward' instead there remains a flutter about stating the present and bleedin obvious state-of-play

6. 100% agree about OU and high quality outputs on all fronts. 

Yours, 

Dawn wink

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In reply to dawn alderson

Re: Should I study my degree online? – live Q&A on the UK's Guardian newspaper website

by dawn alderson -

p.s.

have become very playful here big grin

was hoping someone would have replied with 'well what if the milk was in a carton!'-fair point eh. That would have revealed quite nicely, my expecatation of my audience going along with my ASSUMPTIONS.

Cheers,

Dawn 

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In reply to dawn alderson

Re: Should I study my degree online? – live Q&A on the UK's Guardian newspaper website

by Jez H -

The milk was not spilt, it was sour. Upon tasting it someone threw it to the ground.

Putting it in a carton would be safer, but your still not going to get anyone to drink it wink

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In reply to dawn alderson

Re: Should I study my degree online? – live Q&A on the UK's Guardian newspaper website

by Jez H -

Yeah accept the numbered points smile

Related to peer support is the issue of participation. Its surprisingly difficult to get users to participate in discussion in Moodle forums.

regards spilt milk and moving forward I came across a marketing term being banded about on articulate forums a while back relating to the sale of e-learning courses:

"sell the sizzle not the steak"

I think there has been plenty of sizzle around MOOCS over the past couple of years, still not seeing much in the way of steak. I think if it was going to take off in a big way it would have by now, if anything the opposite has happened.

I think the bottom line is it was driven by academics, universities and businesses not by demand from learners and without that demand / commitment from learners the sizzle is starting to fizzle.

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In reply to Jez H

Re: Should I study my degree online? – live Q&A on the UK's Guardian newspaper website

by dawn alderson -

I am not good at reading between the lines.........need some rationale or a good beefy critique with regard to MOOCs........

Am still trying to work out this (see pic)...........has been a few months too!

'I have decided to steak my claim in the legion of MOOCdom' Stephen Downes........eh!  What does this mean?  Trees connected with a Mars bar? or Elephants with wings.......all being connected like thoughtful

Connectivism........I don't get it! I really do not get it........and I have asked about it on email-but I got  a nil response...maybe that was the wrong thing to do, crumbs! sleepy

never mind.......might be a load of bull &*%$  anyway!

oops! How unprofessional of me...Doh! tongueout

Forgive me, please.

Dawn

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In reply to Matt Bury

Re: Should I study my degree online? – live Q&A on the UK's Guardian newspaper website

by Jez H -

That articles pretty good. There is a big difference between what you could call "knowledge acquisition" and education.

MOOC's can help with the former, but are probably less effective than simply learning from books, websites, participating in existing communities online or offline. Why limit yourself to what the author(s) of a given MOOC thought was relevant?

Education involves a high level of direct structured support, formal assessment (backed up by accreditation) and some form of qualification / formally recognised credential at the end of it.

I read something a while back about automating grading in MOOCs based on the use of keywords in written responses.

If that comes to pass some bright spark will no doubt knock up script which can spew out readable grammatically correct gibberish (using Markov Chains) injected with chosen keyword list and offer it as a service for $5 a pop. That kind of thing has been in the public domain for years and was picked up by search engine spammers wanting to bulk create websites. You may happened upon the odd example of this over the years, web pages you can read but actually make no sense.

Where there's a buck to be made there will always be someone with the skills ready to jump into the breach, and unlike the people proposing these automated grading schemes these guys do not live in a pink hazy bubble oblivious to the world (and freely available technology) around them!

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In reply to Jez H

Re: Should I study my degree online? – live Q&A on the UK's Guardian newspaper website

by dawn alderson -

...I will agree with 'pretty'

As for assessment.......whole different arena.....however, yes I hear you.

D wink

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In reply to Jez H

Re: Should I study my degree online? – live Q&A on the UK's Guardian newspaper website

by Matt Bury -
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Hi Jez,

Re: "I read something a while back about automating grading in MOOCs based on the use of keywords in written responses." -- I read about a few testing agencies/publishers; Pearson Education, ETS, and I think McGraw Hill; that were proposing to use more sophisticated AI to automatically grade essays. They put in a bunch of sample essays that have been graded to "calibrate" the AI and let it do the rest. They claimed it was more accurate and faster than hiring a bunch of teachers to do it in their spare time or as a summer job.

I wish I could find an article about it but, shortly after, an academic generated a nonsense essay that got very high marks from one of those AI systems. The problem that he identified was that computers are very good at grading the stuff that we humans care least about, e.g. vocabulary, grammar, and structure, and useless when it comes to what we do care about; meaning. Until computers have a "theory of mind" and can understand "what we mean to say", in human terms, they'll always be fooled by linguistic nonsense.

My favourite illustration of how dumb AI is, is Winograd Schemas: http://www.cs.nyu.edu/davise/papers/WS.html

Actually, when I read some forum contributions, I sometimes wonder if they're AI generated and that someone somewhere is testing some kind of Turin machine. They can be very effective at simulating intelligence/consciousness. A favourite quote of mine is:

"One day machines will exceed human intelligence." -- Ray Kurzweil.

"Only if we meet them half-way." -- Dave Snowden.

Please note that Kurzweil gets a lot more attention from the press than Snowden. You could say that we live in an echo chamber that selectively filters out information and views that are "non-profitable", i.e. that they point out the limitations of the technologies that are being sold to us... and there's big money to be made from automating as much of education as possible. That's where we're in danger of "dumbing down" our syllabi and curricula so that they can be automated. That's where we meet the machines half-way.

Just think of all the amazing and life changing contributions that have been made to cultures and societies by people who were very, very bad at doing tests where there was only one or a few "right" answers to each question.

 

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In reply to Matt Bury

Re: Should I study my degree online? – live Q&A on the UK's Guardian newspaper website

by Jez H -

The crux of it is if you can use AI to grade the assignment you can use AI to create it!

I think the whole grammar / vocab thing unravels as soon as you have a student working in a second language, which may just happen on a distance course!

Technology allows you to:

  • Do it better
  • Do it cheaper

The fear of "Do it cheaper" sometimes creates resistance to "Do it better" which eventually leans back into "Do it cheaper".

I think there is big money in all aspects of AI, Google are quite involved in that area. I think they say something like "the perfect search engine would know what you were about to ask and give you the answer as you needed it", which is what they would like to do with things like Google Now.

Its hard to fathom the potential power of super computers running "real" AI technology plugged into the web.

Forget about Education, what kind of stock market predictions could you make!!

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In reply to Jez H

Re: Should I study my degree online? – live Q&A on the UK's Guardian newspaper website

by Matt Bury -
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Hollywood and others have led us to believe that AI, if sufficiently powerful, would be able, not only to simulate a conscious mind, but to be come sentient, i.e. to have a mind of its own. This is still very much in the realms of science fiction.

Check the inherent difficulties with generating artificial consciousness here: http://blog.ted.com/2013/07/22/4-talks-on-a-strange-phenomenon-we-all-experience-consciousness/ (The less "bad" instances of TED talks), particularly John Searle's.

Some have argued that the concept of a mind in a machine (an extension of the ghost in the machine) or a brain in a jar is literally impossible, and that our whole bodies are just as much a part of our consciousness. For example, if you're academically inclined, Zlatev, J., "Embodiment, Language, and Mimesis", http://psychology.illinoisstate.edu/jccutti/psych480_24/readings/zlatev2007.pdf

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