Math(s) Demoted on Moodle.org

Math(s) Demoted on Moodle.org

by Marc Grober -
Number of replies: 11

I have just discovered (see thread herehttps://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=244488#p1060128) that DragMath was no longer appearing on Moodle.org, and that this was the result of TeX having been turned down. 

I can't tell you whether this was because, as one dev put it awhile ago, Maths is not a core concern of Moodle, or because Moodle administration was simply unaware of TeX usage on Moodle.org, but whatever the issue TeX has now been turned on IN THE MATH FORUM ONLY.

Frankly I think this is inappropriate, but who here really gives a rat's rear end what I think, right wink    But I think the ability to communicate within an educational tool is vital to the success of that tool, and the ability to use TeX or an equivalent important in as much as full communication without such a tool can be very difficult.

Of perhaps greater interest is that if Moodle.org is in fact going to playing around with turning off any TeX NOT in the Math forum,  it gives one pause to consider the benefit of using MathJax to implement Math notation, which would give users the ability to have TeX, and ASCIIMath parsed.

The downside, which is why I raise this again, is the Algebra filter, which is only accessible at present if the TeX filter is turned on, but there is no reason that this has to be true,  just like there is no reason that the TeX filter has to be on to access DragMath just because one Dev assumed that only people using the TeX filter would need DragMath, lol.

In any event,  I thought I would raise the issue here and suggest that anyone seeing this thread here pass it on to those discussing STEM subjects in other fora where TeX or its equiv is of interest or value, or where it has been used in a forum and is now no longer parsed based on Moodle.org current policy.

SHould there be enough concern or interest I suppose the target of such interest should be the forum thread noted above.

Happy Chanukah

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In reply to Marc Grober

Re: Math(s) Demoted on Moodle.org

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

Marc, it has alwasy been the case that the TeX filter only worked in the maths forum. That was true since long before it was actually possible to configures filters by context. Indeed, that hack remains in the code, commented out, to this day:

https://github.com/moodle/moodle/blob/master/filter/tex/filter.php#L121

(Someone really ought to remove that.)

Probably, what happened was that during some upgrade, that custom hack to the code got overwritten. Now Helen has achieved the same thing using the proper config settings. That seems like an improvement.

I don't know which one developer said "Maths is not a core concern of Moodle" but that should not be taken as Moodle HQ policy.

Basically, nothing to see here.

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In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Math(s) Demoted on Moodle.org

by Colin Fraser -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Testers

I tend to disagree Tim, there is much to look at and little done. Of all the subjects I have taught over the years, Maths has always proven the most difficult, yet it informs much of the basic requirements of our society. For the most part, students are largely unreceptive, not grasping the relevance, but, apart from pen and paper, I have never had a decent set of maths tools that have been freely accessible, easy to use, that students can use successfully with a minimum of familiarity. The closest I have come to that has still required a specialized skill set - an understanding of TeX.  

Trying to develop electronic resources has been an endless round of discussion and a nightmare of disagreement. I can't even get my school Moodle provider (a Moodle Partner) to properly configure the TeX filters on our school Moodle so that even the mimetex fallback will work - and they will not allow me access to their servers to do it myself. The argument I had just to get Geogebra available in my school will be nothing to what I am coming into with trying to move away from a supplied Moodle to hosting it ourselves. So there is a huge amount to be done to educate students in digital Maths, but so little idea on how we can do it if so many people just ignore the problem or gloss it over with flippant phrases.   

 

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In reply to Colin Fraser

Re: Math(s) Demoted on Moodle.org

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

You don't have to convince me of the importance of maths. I started out getting a degree and PhD in maths, and I spent a lot of 2012 making STACK into a really robust question type for Moodle.

It is surprising that maths on the web has taking so long to get anywhere (although it is far more advanced than music notation). Here is a good article about the state of MathML in browsers http://www.maths-informatique-jeux.com/blog/frederic/?post/2013/10/12/Funding-MathML-Developments-in-Gecko-and-WebKit

For now, MathJax seems to be the way to go. Good that a consortium of people got together on that. You can make MathJax work in Moodle just using the Additional HTML config setting in Moodle. (Details in the STACK install instructions if you need them.)

Of course, just displaying maths notation is only part of the problem. Geogebra is another useful tool, but Java applets are becoming increasingly problematic. Would be nice to see something like Geogebra built in HTML5.

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In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Math(s) Demoted on Moodle.org

by Mikael Kurula -

From what I understand, it is already possible to use GeoGebra with HTML5 in Moodle: Mauno has created this plugin. The teacher still needs Java to run the GeoGebra programme in order to put the applet on the Moodle page in tinymce, but the students can run the applet in HTML5 mode. GeogebraTube can also serve HTML5-applets: http://www.geogebratube.org/student/m17496?mobile=true The option ?mobile=true at the end selects the HTML5 version.

I have been using this plugin for a few months now with only one single problem: At times Firefox blocked the editor applet due to mixed content issues, but Mauno helped me resolve that easily too.

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In reply to Mikael Kurula

Re: Math(s) Demoted on Moodle.org

by Mauno Korpelainen -

A new Geogebra release is coming soon so it might be a good time to rewrite also that tinymce plugin to HTML5/javascript wink

http://blog.geogebra.org/2013/11/geogebra-4-4-and-html5-applets-coming-1st-december/

http://wiki.geogebra.org/en/Release_Notes_GeoGebra_4.4

 

 

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In reply to Mauno Korpelainen

Re: Math(s) Demoted on Moodle.org

by Colin Fraser -
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Gee thanks Marc, I think.... as an intensive contemplater of my own navel, I really hope my head does not implode, but I just allow myself to continue on my merry way of saying what I like, relevant, or reverent, or not..smile 

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In reply to Colin Fraser

Re: Math(s) Demoted on Moodle.org

by Daniel Thies -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers

I might add to what Tim said in the case that the admin will not allow you to place MathJaX in the theme or in the Additional HTML, the MathJax documentation only recommends placing the MathJax script link in the header so that the configuration files can preload before the entire document is finished.

MathJax will work albeit slower if it is included in the body after the maths.  This may be in the footer or just near the bottom of the page. Since the blocks seem to load after the page, it should work to load it in an HTML block to enable MathJax on a course or activity level like one does with the TeX filter.

I admin my institution's site, and I used to have MathJax available everywhere, but now only have it enabled in maths and science.  Incidentally, no one has ever complained to me that the dragnet icon appears in their English course, but the output does not render like it does in the maths course. wink

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In reply to Daniel Thies

Re: Math(s) Demoted on Moodle.org

by Derek Chirnside -

We have diverged a little from the original intent of Marc's post.  I know he will correct me if I have interpreted him wrong.

This is not about the value of maths (which I know about since I have taught maths) or technical issues around these plugins (which is pretty much all unknown to me) or the value of plugins being in Moodle (which I know about since I use forums where maths/physics is relevant)

What I think the question is about if there is any commitment in those who manage Moodle direction to having this part of Moodle.  Sometimes 1) MoodleHQ policy is clear, and minuted in the docs.  2) Othertimes it in the docs, but it is not clear.  3) And in some cases you can only infer the policy by what is written in small parts of forum posts, or what actually happens, or more to the point what gets ignored.

I will not mention case 4).

It could be here we have case three: it's unclear if there is or if there is not commitment to maths in this way (ie having the plugins catered for in core) - of if it has just not been considered in any intentional way.

-Derek

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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Math(s) Demoted on Moodle.org

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

Remember that Moodle is open source. It is neither necessary nor desirable for Moodle HQ to have a clear settled policy on everything. Rather, they are custodians of Moodle for the community.

Maths is one area where the knowledge in the community greatly outweighs that at HQ, as can be seen but the contributions of Mauno, Marc and others in this forum and in the docs, and in code. E.g. http://docs.moodle.org/26/en/Mathematics, http://docs.moodle.org/26/en/Mathematics_tools_FAQ.

Now, it might be that there is some work to do, working out the consensus recommendation of the community, and hence making some changes to what is included in Moodle by default, and making sure all the available add-ons are documented, and the code is high quality. If so, let's do that, and I am sure Moodle HQ will be amongst the first to applaud.

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In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Math(s) Demoted on Moodle.org

by Colin Fraser -
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What Mauno has done is precisely what I have been hoping for. This makes it easier for using Maths tools, certainly, but as it is not core, it is not making it to a lot of Moodles I suspect. Certainly I get blank stares if I raise this issue with our Moodle provider. HQ probably does recognize the validity of Marc's argument, and discussion could very well be around what tools to support, they cannot all be supported - despite Mauno's best efforts.

I am suggesting that perhaps it is time to bring additional sophistication into Moodle. I have little idea how it can be done outside of bringing SEE into core. A separate Maths and Science specific Moodle would be very difficult, and expensive, to maintain I expect, making it unrealistic. It cannot be the "We have an issue, something must be done, this is something, therefore we will do this" approach either, that is a quick way of getting into trouble I suggest. I would also suggest that bringing SEE into core would do more than just make a few people like Marc or myself happier, it would give much more depth to Moodle, making it far more attractive than anything else out there for the education market.     

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In reply to Marc Grober

Re: Math(s) Demoted on Moodle.org

by Marc Grober -

I appreciate all the comments thus far....

Tim,  I was closely paraphrasing YOUR comment about Maths in Moodle, lol, and your suggesting that anything I have done had any impact on Moodle is almost laughable.

And while we appreciate the fact that when once YOU decided that you wanted STACK things happened on the Moodle side, the argument that Moodle HQ devs have been supportive of providing Math options in Moodle I think is a little slim,  one reason I chose not to engage further in repairing the TeX filter.

As Derek notes, the underlying issue is the degree to which expressing oneself using notation is going to be a focus for Moodle, the degree to which the ability to symbolically address issues either the focus of instruction or the focus of the Moodle application itself will be addressed by the application.

The suggestion that Moodle HQ is simply responding to the community is a bit over the top.  I hate to be harsh,  but the forums are packed full of the 'community' being largely ignored... I respect Derek because he attempts to maintain a "positive attitude"  no matter the circumstances, and Colin has yet to have his Ozzy head implode. Mauno remains the quiet supportive productive resource that admire tremendously.  will defer to their perspectives on the broader issues.

Specifically, Moodle has not committed to making communication in symbols universal and transparent. Time is well past to have moved in that direction, and while Moodle is arguably standing still, other applications are moving forward.

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