Assignment

2.4 ASSIGNMENT - "grouping for student groups"

 
 
Mary Cooch
2.4 ASSIGNMENT - "grouping for student groups"
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I wonder if anyone who is currently testing or was involved in the development of the new 2.4 assignment features could explain how the "grouping for student groups" feature is meant to work -because I don't understand it (ie, I can't get it to actually do anything)

Thankssmile

 
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Mary Cooch
Re: 2.4 ASSIGNMENT - "grouping for student groups"
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Answering myself here (as you do) This is a message Damyon posted on the tracker which I have only just spotted:

Hi Mary,

If you choose a "grouping for student groups" then the students will be divided into the groups provided by that grouping - if not then all the available groups for the course will be used.

The reason this setting exists is so you can have different groups for different assignments within the same course.

Does that help?

Hi Mary,

If you choose a "grouping for student groups" then the students will be divided into the groups provided by that grouping - if not then all the available groups for the course will be used.

The reason this setting exists is so you can have different groups for different assignments within the same course.

Does that help?

I am going off to experiment with this nowsmile

 
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Mary Cooch
Re: 2.4 ASSIGNMENT - "grouping for student groups"
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My second answer! (If I resolve my problem I hope I can rate myself usefulbig grin)

I am confused because we have "grouping for student groups" and also "grouping" in the Common module settings. When I use groupings it is because I only want certain students to see the activity. If I put two groups into Grouping A and then allocate that grouping in "grouping for student groups" the others (in grouping B) can still see the assignment -and do it, as far as I can tell. So I don't see how it is different from leaving it as it is and just having groups with no grouping.

I then changed it to "none" and in common module settings assigned Grouping A.  member of a group in Grouping B  was still able to see the assignment - when it should have been hidden from them.

I then kept the common module settings to Grouping A and also set the "grouping for student groups" to Grouping A. But my student in a group in Grouping B could still see the assignment - and submit it. In the teacher's grading screen members of the other group in the other grouping are shown in the "all participants" screen in the default group.

So either I have misunderstood or - ?

 
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Me!
Re: 2.4 ASSIGNMENT - "grouping for student groups"
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Hi Mary,

The course module grouping setting can be used to only show the assignment to a subset of users in the course - but you need to enable the experimental admin setting "enablegroupmembersonly". Beyond that it really only affects marking (In separate groups mode markers can only mark students in their own group). 

The "grouping for student groups" setting operates independently of the course module grouping. Of all the people who can see the assignment, they get split into groups according to the "grouping for student groups" and anyone left over gets put in a "Default Group" (also anyone who is in more than one group gets put into the "Default Group"). 

Does that help?

Regards, Damyon

 
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Picture of Joseph Rézeau
Re: 2.4 ASSIGNMENT - "grouping for student groups"
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Hi Damyon,

This sounds all extremely confusing. Since it seems you understand what you are talking about, what about explaining things to those who don't by taking concrete examples.

Example: In Course "Course 01" we have students: student01, student02, student03, student04 etc. We have Course groups: Group A (containing student01, student02), Group B (containing student03, student04), Group C, ... and Course groupings, e.g. Grouping AB containing Group A and Group B, Grouping CD containing Group C and Group D, etc.

Can you continue the scenario with those concrete examples and explain what happens in Assignment? It would be very useful to people who - like me - find it difficult to play with abstract concepts.

TIA,

Joseph

 
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Mary Cooch
Re: 2.4 ASSIGNMENT - "grouping for student groups"
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Right -after much testing I think I have got this.

 First of all, my bad ( I can't believe I used that term! - mea culpa would be more my style) for forgetting to enable group members only on my 2.4 dev site. 

Here is what I think:

The course is set up like so:

Group A comprising students 1,23 and Group B comprising students 4,5,6 are put into GroupingAB

Group C comprising students 7,8,9 are put into GroupingC

Student 10 is not in any group at all.

 Scenario 1:

Make an group assignment. Ignore the “grouping for student groups” setting (none) and in the common module settings, set it to separate groups / GroupingAB and available to group members only.

 Result:

 Only students in the groupingAB will be able to see the assignment; students in group/groupingC and student 10 will not. The gradebook shows 4 groups A,B, C and  the default group. Student 10 has been put in the default group.

 Scenario 2:

Make a group assignment. Set “grouping for student groups to “GroupingAB” and in the common module settings set it to separate groups/GroupingAB and available to group members only.

 Result:

Only students in groupingAB can see the assignment; students in  grouping C and Student 10 will not. The gradebook shows 3 groups: group A, group B and the default group comprising group C and student 10

Scenario 3:

Make a group assignment. Set "grouping for student groups" to GroupingAB. In common module settings, leave it as  separate groups but grouping/none/and don't tick available for group members only)

 Result:

Everyone can see and do the assignment. There are 3 groups: A, B and the default group. The default group comprises group C members and student 10 not in a group.

 Scenario 4:

Make a group assignment. Set "grouping for student groups" to none. In common module settings  leave it as separate groups with no grouping and available for group members only not ticked.

Result:

Everyone can see and do the assignment . The gradebook shows 4 groups: group A, B, C and the default group which consists only of student 10 who wasn't in any group.

 

Scenario 5:

Make a group assignment. Set “grouping for student groups to “GroupingC” and in the common module settings set it to separate groups/GroupingC and available to group members only.

 Result:

Only students in groupingC can see the assignment; students in  grouping AB and Student 10 will not. The gradebook shows 2 groups: group C and the default group  which comprises members of groups A, B and student 10

 

TEST:

Scenario 6:  A group assignment has the "grouping for student groups" set to "none" and the common module settings set to separate groups/GroupingC/available for group members only. Who will be able to access this assignment and how many groups will be displayed in the gradebook?

 
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Me!
Re: 2.4 ASSIGNMENT - "grouping for student groups"
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Hi Mary, Thanks for your diligent testing!

Scenario 6: I think there should be only one group for the assignment in the gradebook and only members of Grouping C should see the assignment in this case. 

 
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Ray Lawrence
Re: 2.4 ASSIGNMENT - "grouping for student groups"
 

Adding to this discussion, it's just occurred to me that the group assignment settings duplicate or ignore the standard group and groupings settings [MDL-37494]

 
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math
Re: 2.4 ASSIGNMENT - "grouping for student groups"
 

Am I oversimplifying - or maybe just wrong - in my understanding that the "Students submit in groups" setting only allows for two groups: the grouping named in the "Grouping for student groups" setting and everyone else (the "default group")? In one limited test with a group of teachers, that was our experience.

To align with the scenario you've laid out, suppose that I create the following groupings:

  • Grouping X, made up of Group A
  • Grouping Y, made up of Group B
  • Grouping Z, made up of Group C

I then set up an assignment with the following settings in place:

  • Students submit in groups = yes
  • Grouping for student groups = Grouping X

Won't that result in only two groups within which students are working - Grouping X and the default group (everyone else)?

I ask because most of our students use groups to define the various periods (classes) of students within a particular course. Some have recently begun experimenting with setting up groups that are made up of subsets of students within (and among) those classes - for instance, a grouping that includes the groups of students from within those main class groups who need a different version of a test. We would like to use groupings to allow for group work within these main class groups. But it appears - again based on one limited test session - that this is not possible.

Any insight or direct help would be greatly appreciated

Thanks!

David

 
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math
Re: 2.4 ASSIGNMENT - "grouping for student groups"
 

Sorry, I meant to write, "most of our teachers use groups to define the various periods (classes) of students within a particular course".

 
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Me!
Re: 2.4 ASSIGNMENT - "grouping for student groups"
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Hi David,

How is it not possible to do what you want?

You have groups defined for the students - can't you put them in a grouping and use that?

 
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math
Re: 2.4 ASSIGNMENT - "grouping for student groups"
 

Damyon,

Hello, and thanks for responding so quickly. My apologies for my delay in replying.

First, I will freely admit that I may be wrong - or that I may be trying to force the module to do something other than what was intended.

One quick question, the answer to which may clear things up for me - if students are members of more than one grouping, does that interfere with the "Students submit in groups" setting?

Now, the expanded scenario:

We are a K-12 school system. Most of our middle-and high-school teachers teach multiple blocks (periods, classes, sessions) of the same course. They set up groups - with group enrollment keys - to correspond to those groups (Block 1, Block 2, etc.), and the students self-enroll.

If we left things at that level of group organization (and created groupings to correspond to those groups), "Students submit in groups" would work fine, except that the groups submitting work would be the entire block of students. **If I am wrong here, or at any point in the rest of this, please point it out! I am not easily offended**

But... in a recent workshop with a group of about 12 teachers (enrolled in a course as students), we tried this:

  • One course
  • Two groups: Block 1 (student 1-6) and Block 2 (students 7-12). These groups would correspond to physical classes of students.

Then...

  • Two more groups: Group A (students 1,3,5,7,9,11) and Group B (2,4,6,8,10,12)
  • Two groupings: Grouping A (Group A) and Grouping B (Group A)

Those groups and groupings were set up to demonstrate the "Available to group members only" setting as a way to make activities available to targeted groups - the scenario being that there is a subset of students across all Blocks (groups) that require specific differentiation. This seemed to work fine for the "Available to group members only" setting.

Then...

  • A new set of groups: Project Group A (students 1,2,3), Project Goup B (students 4,5,6), Project Group C (students 7,8,9), and Project Group D (students 10,11,12)
  • A new set of Groupings, made up of the individual project groups: Project Grouping A (Project Group A), Project Grouping B (Project Group B), etc.

The intent here (and the main point of all of this) was to allow for students to submit work in groups (multiple groups of three students each) within the larger groups (Block 1, Block 2 - the physical classes).

Then...

  • Add a new Assignment.

The BIG QUESTION.... Is it possible for each of those Project Goupings to submit work as a group? And,if so, what settings would allow it?

Thanks in advance for any and all advice!

David

 

 
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Picture of Susana L.
Re: 2.4 ASSIGNMENT - "grouping for student groups"
 

Hi David, we have exactly the same question!! Did you come to any conclusion?

Thank you,

susana

 
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Richard Samson
Re: 2.4 ASSIGNMENT - "grouping for student groups"
 

Mary,

We're using 2.6.3+ and I can't replicate your experiment precisely. I think I have read all the posts on this confusing topic and I have come to the conclusion that:

  • "Group submission settings" are "Collaborative assignment settings". Here you specify the grouping that contains the groups for the assignment.
  • "Common module settings" affect the visibility/availability of items.
    For non-group assignments this only affects how items are shown to teachers for grading (all in one list or in separate lists for each group). If teachers are included in a group and the teacher permissions are modified at the course level so that they can only see groups they are in, then that will happen.
    For group assignments, the effect on grading for teachers is the same as above. For students, in the case of group assignments, you don't need to set up anything special. You can have Group mode: No groups; Grouping: None; Available for group members only: Unchecked. Changing these settings will only change the way the teachers have access to the different groups for grading purposes.
    But don't set a different grouping from in the "Group submission settings" and check the availability only box. This could hide the activity from the very students you want to be able to do it!
    • Group mode: Only affects the grading view. If in doubt, use No groups.
    • Grouping: You don't need to set up a grouping here unless you want to hide the assignment from some students. But usually your grouping in the "Group submission settings" will include all students anyway.
    • Available for group members only: If you don't set up a grouping in the previous field this checkbox is irrelevant. If you set up a grouping there, you can use this box to hide the assignment from students not in the grouping. (I have read that this option has disappeared from the latest versions of Moodle, where it is now subsumed into the conditional activity architecture.) If you do not check this box, students who are not in the grouping in the previous field will see the assignment too.
  • Apart from all the above, it is a good idea to set the course settings to Separate groups or Visible groups. Otherwise, students will not be able to see who else is in their group.

Well, I know that this is all fairly moot because we are using an old version of Moodle.

It certainly is complicated!

 
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Picture of Annick Fructoso
Re: 2.4 ASSIGNMENT - "grouping for student groups"
 

This is a confusing setting.

From what we understand , the "group submission setting" is in fact a collaborative assignment based on  groups and the "common module settings" is where you set your groups.

This create lots of confusion as a few members of staff select "student submit in group" thinking that they turning the Group mode on and then finding out that all the learners in a group can see somebody else assignment....

Do you think a possibility could be to rename the  "group submission settings" to "Collaborative Assignment Settings" and the "Common Module settings" to"Group Settings"?

Merci smile

 
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Picture of Rob Monk
Re: 2.4 ASSIGNMENT - "grouping for student groups"
 

What happens if I change students groups mid way thought the course.

Example

Students 1,2 and 3 were in group A for the first assignment

Students 4, 5, and 6 were in group B for the first assignment.


For the second assignment I want to change the groups.

I want Students 1, 3 and 5 to work together and students 2, 4 and 6 to work together for the second assignment.


Do I reassign students within the old groups(A and B) or do I create new groups? (Group C and D)

I don't want the grade from assignment 1 to be affected by the changes I make for assignment 2.

I'm using Moodle 2.7


 
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Richard Samson
Re: 2.4 ASSIGNMENT - "grouping for student groups"
 

Rob,

I-ve just been rereading this whole thread and I see that nobody has answered you.

My understanding is theat you should make new groups for the second task.

If students are in more than one group that is no problem but it potentially increases the possible permutations.

In the case of assignments, you need to put the groups into a grouping and, in the Group submission settings, specify the grouping. It would be a different grouping for each task in your case.

Or does somebody want to correct me?


 
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Picture of Emma Richardson
Re: 2.4 ASSIGNMENT - "grouping for student groups"
Group Particularly helpful Moodlers

I suggest you reread the documentation on groups and groupings.  Groupings is basically a way to create a new set of groups and then assign it to an assignment. 

So, for your example above, you would create the new set of groups Group A, B and C but then assign them to a single grouping - which you could call Assignment 1 grouping for example.  Then when you assign that grouping to the assignment in question, the groups are automatically set up.  From here, you can have them submit as group.

You ALWAYS want to make new groups - changing groups that were used for previous assignments will wreak havoc especially if they submitted as a group.  You can assign students to as many groups as you want.  Then use the groupings to decide which set of groups you want for each specific assignment.

 
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