Moodle in English: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

Hello Moodlers,

This past Monday evening my web host moved my entire web account to a different server because they said I was using too much of their server resources. I have three college classes using Moodle on that server this term as an experiment and everything has gone fine until now.

Ive read here where Moodle can be resource intensive when a lot of users are logged in at the same time. Im not using the chat feature.my online class activity is being conducted as asynchronous dicsussions and activities in Moodle discussion forums. Below is the notice I received from my host and my initial (not so happy) reply at the top .maybe Im expecting too much from a shared server environment, but when they advertise 40 gigs of monthly bandwidth (even though I know bandwidth and resource usage is different), I dont see how I could ever use that much bandwidth without first getting kicked off their servers. On a side note, the last time I checked the server I was on, had around 800 other websites hosted on it. Maybe I'm being unreasonable and expecting too much from a shared webhost?

Ive been planning to move to a dedicated server after this initial experiment with MoodleIve moved that plan up and have spent the last two days moving everything to a dedicated server.

Note: I removed any identifying information about the webhost below...if I'm the one expecting too much here, I don't want to give them bad PR.

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Sent: Mon 3/14/2005 8:52 PM
To: Hyndman, Steve
Subject: Moved to XXXXX due to excessive resource usage

This is outrageous. I've have been hosting with your company for over a year and have three XXXXXX accounts. In the past I've had nothing but positive experiences with XXXXX and now, out of the blue, I get an automated email telling me that my account is using excessive resources and has been moved to another server (one that may be inferior to what I'm currently on), that my site is not suitable for a shared hosting environment and will be shut down in 7 days unless I do something about it.

I purchased the XXXXXXX plan which has 40 gig of data transfer per month....I have never used over a gig of transfer and when I looked at my control panel this morning, it shows that as of today I've only used 22 meg of transfer. How in the world does an account use a fraction of its allocated data transfer and (and only half its allocated storage) and become "not suitable for a shared hosting environment"?

I'm running two php programs on that account... a phpBB discussion board and copy of Moodle...both of which were installed using Fantastico from the control panel.

The phpBB discussion board has been active for about three weeks and has an average of 5.92 posts per day....I can't imagine that would be considered "resource intensive".

The Moodle installation is the primary reason I have this account....I use it to teach an online class. I have been using this to teach class since January. The account has a total of 107 registered users and only about 65 are in my current classes and are active users. The main resource use on this program comes from an online discussion board where I conduct class. My current online class discussion started last week on Thursday and as of this morning, the board has a total of 278 posts....an average of 55.6 posts per day.

I have two other installations of Moodle on that account that I don't use....they are just sitting there for testing purposes.

Could you please tell me where the problem is with my account? I have a cron job set to run every 30 minutes...if that's it, I can set it to run each hour or two hours.

One of your options below says I can upgrade to the XXXXXXX Plan...why should I upgrade my plan when I am using only a fraction of the bandwidth and half the storage space in my current plan? The last time I checked, you were hosting around 800 websites on that server...if you are overselling your servers and penalizing me for using a fraction of the resources that I should be able to use, the I find that a very poor business practice.

Please respond to me with specifics about how I am consuming too much of your server resources. I am in the middle of teaching a class and you have me in a fix. I can't just shut down my site and leave my students without access to class.

==== Enter your reply ABOVE this line ====
Dear Hyndman, Steve,

The following ticket has been created by a member of our staff for you

Your question's details:

============== Title: ==============
Moved to XXXXXX due to excessive resource usage

============== Message: ==============
Hello,

Your account is utilizing excessive resources, causing a significant
degradation of services on the server. This is a shared environment and we
can not allow one user to utilize the majority of the resources on a server as
it affects all users adversely. Because of this, you have been temporarily
moved to the XXXXX server. A detail of the problem is shown below:

User    Domain %CPU    %MEM    Mysql Processes
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX            1.48    0.28    0.2
Top Process     %CPU 57.0       /usr/bin/php
Top Process     %CPU 51.0       /usr/bin/php
Top Process     %CPU 29.0       /usr/bin/php

We moved you to XXXXXXX first to solve the issue of the degraded service on
XXXXXXX and second as a courtesy in order to prevent any downtime on your site to
allow you time to rectify the situation. Currently, your site is not suitable
for a shared hosting environment.

XXXXXX is not a production server and is not guaranteed to run in the same
manner as your old server nor will it support all functions you may have.
This is a transitional server only and is not intended to be a permanent
placement. Please make a decision on how you would like to proceed within
seven (7) days. After seven (7) days, your account will be suspended if no
other arrangements are made.

You have the following options:

1.You may upgrade your package to the XXXXXX Plan. The XXXXXXXX Plan is
a larger package designed for current customers who have outgrown our
published shared hosting packages. For more information on the features and
pricing, please see XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

2.You may take steps to correct the problem by reviewing your coding. This
must be done before the seven (7) days are up. You will need to let the
technician know the steps you took to correct the issue and get approval
before being returned to a production server.
3.You may look for a dedicated server or other hosting solution. Please
remember that propagation takes up to seventy two (72) hours so if you decide
on changing hosts you should allow enough time for propagation.

Thank you for your cooperation in this matter. We value you as a customer and
want to work with you toward a solution that is mutually beneficial. Please
let us know as quickly as possible how you would like to proceed.

If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask us, we will be happy
to answer them. We are committed to making your hosting experiences pleasant
and fulfilling.

Best Regards,

XXXXXXXX

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Art Lader發表於2005年 03月 17日(週四) 02:58

Sure would like to know who these guys are...

-- Art

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Steve Hyndman發表於2005年 03月 17日(週四) 04:19

Well, it has caused a some confusion and stress for my students and a lot of work for me. I've received about 4 of the same type emails like pasted below. Evidently, when they moved my account, there was a delay between when they copied the database and when everything was redirected to the new server...so I'm assuming some of my studets' post that may have been made during that delay are sitting in the database on the original account.

Of course, I'm not going to penalize students for something this was not in their control, but this has caused some disruption of my class.

------------------------------------------

Dr Hyndman, I have a crisis!! I responded to all of the questions due by

Monday, midnight, with at least 2 paragraphs each, at approximately 7:00-10:00 that evening. The posting was accepted and gave me a chance to edit it for thirty minutes after posting as usual. However, they're is only 1 posting showing and I do not know what happened to the other 3. What shall I do??? XXXX said she saw me on line at the same time she was that night but something happened to my responses. I have dial-up and maybe that was my problem based upon the discussion you had with us in class one night. It is just aggravating for me to sit for hours and lose everything.

What do I need to do to change that?? Do I need to respond to the other three again? Thank you XXXX XXXX

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Angela Gibson發表於2005年 03月 17日(週四) 04:00

WOW, Steve! I would be incensed if my hosting company did what you just described! I think your response was more than diplomatic but I would definitely consider looking for a new hosting company. There are so many to choose from these days! Just my 0.02.

Mark S., a fellow Moodle user suggested the following hosting provider to me: penguinhost.net. For $6.95 per month he gets 2gb space with 60 gb bandwidth.

Good luck!

Angela

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Art Lader發表於2005年 03月 17日(週四) 04:05

Looks like a great deal:
http://www.thinkingdistance.com/hosting/teacher.html

-- Art

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Steve Hyndman發表於2005年 03月 17日(週四) 04:23

Thanks Angela. I'm going to a dedicated server now...I just can't afford for this to happen again, but believe me, it's a real pain having to do this in the middle of a term while class is in progress. Instead of spending time interacting with my students over the past two days, I've been busy moving my website.

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Art Lader發表於2005年 03月 17日(週四) 19:56

You know what? Lobbying for funds for continued hosting at moodle.com just went back to the very top of my list.

I am sorrry this happened to you and your students, but I very much appreciate your posting your original message.

-- Art

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Steve Hyndman發表於2005年 03月 18日(週五) 00:13

You are welcome. Just as a follow-up, here is their reply to me. On a side note, they do have Moodle (and Coppermine that is very resource intensive per the note below) in Fantistico in their Cpanel.

This is a very popular host and what it tells me is that they don't mind me installing Moodle (or other programs that they have in Fantistico and use as a marketing tool), but I had just better not use it to any degree.

-----------------------------------

Reply:

Hi,

If the Moodle cron job itself were causing this usage, the path to the cron job rather than to php would have been listed in the top process lines:

Top Process %CPU 57.0 /usr/bin/php

Top Process %CPU 51.0 /usr/bin/php

Top Process %CPU 29.0 /usr/bin/php

The other lines previously provided mean the following:

User - kentuc4

Average %CPU usage - 1.48

Average %Memory usage - 0.28

Average %MySQL usage - 0.2

With a TOP Process spike to gauge 57% CPU with 4 CPUs divided into it, this would mean that if all accounts on XXX at the time used similar CPU, less than 8 accounts total could be on the server. Of course, it would have crashed long before that, but compare on your home system any program running even one-fourth of that amount if you have 1 CPU on it. It is likely you would shut down that program and then investigate why it is causing such high usage. Your system would be running slower, and might even come close to crashing at that point.

Rather than shut down your account, however, we moved it to XXXXX, a server that is for higher usage accounts but does still allow the site to resolve and function. For the ticket you were sent, please note the response was not automated. It was sent out by one of the other XXXXXXXXXX, who was monitoring the server XXXXXX at the time it became unstable, traced the instability to your account and sent a message to you afte the move to XXXXXX with exact details for your usage provided in it.

Many if not all other hosts do not move high usage accounts to another server to correct coding issues, they simply suspend them if they cause server

instability due to high usage. We instead provide our users with a server

that is not part of our production server to review their account and correct any coding issues or remove any high usage or exploited scripts. This is so your site is not down during this time, but also so your site's usage does not continue to affect the production server and other accounts.

As for bandwidth transfer, there is a major difference between bandwidth transfer and CPU usage. Bandwidth transfer is access to your site via email, http or ftp activity. HTML and static pages as well as PHP and other types of dynamic content all take up bandwidth transfer when accessed. The CPU usage differences between HTML static pages and PHP dynamic ones is vast. PHP and other dynamic scripts use CPU depending on how much resources from the server they require to run. The more poorly written the script or the more queries and changes the script performs, the more CPU it uses. A very graphic instensive script such as Galleries like Coppermine when doing image processing can have just 1 user performing a batch run and cause spikes in the 40-90% top processing levels.

Unfortunately, due to the manner that PHP runs on the server, we cannot individually isolate the exact PHP script causing these load spikes. PHP runs as the user's name, so we only know your account itself had the load spikes and that it was due to PHP activity, but we do not know due to suPHP environment which PHP script caused this. Based on a prior user that had high spikes due to frequent student activity with Moodle and few users with updated phpBB having issues (if it is not exploited, it is unlikely with low user activity to have CPU usage spikes), I believe it is likely Moodle causing the usage. Since you are running multiple instances of it, you may simply wish to disable those that are not vital to your course/site, and then ask for updated usage details.

Please let us know whether you have additional questions, and what changes you do make to the account.

Thanks.

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Martin Dougiamas發表於2005年 03月 18日(週五) 00:16

> If the Moodle cron job itself were causing this usage, the path to the cron job rather than to php would have been listed in the top process lines:

Small factual point: This could be wrong, because the cron job IS a PHP script.

But yeah, about the host, generally you get what you pay for. 800 sites per server!?!? Holy moly. I'm surprised they even supply PHP.

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Andrew Sykes發表於2005年 03月 18日(週五) 01:01

Holy Crap! I run my schools Moodle site and it runs on the school boards web servers they run about 5000 sites or more including FTP. Every teacher gets webspace and every educational establishment or orginisation in the whole province run off of these webservers and we have no problem. I think your host is incorrect plus on my personal webserver I run moodle with Crons no problem. Also 800 Sites even with a Gigabit Ethernet card it must load some slow. I think you need a new host http://webserve.ca or http://www.thewebpeople.ca (REally nice people quick customer service)

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Steve Hyndman發表於2005年 03月 18日(週五) 02:29

I already had an account with this host last year when I first started experimenting with Moodle. This term (January), I decided to teach my web-assisted educatinal technology classes using Moodle (instead of Blackboard) and set it up on my existing account...which I only used for some static pages. Everything went fine until Monday night.

I've copied eveything from this web host to a dedicated server here on campus and have been testing it out this week and cleaning up some bugs on our server set-up (moving from Linux with my webhost to Windows here on campus). By next week (once this online module has ended for my class) I should be able to cleanly redirect everything to my campus server and be rid of this shared host. To be fair, I have been with this host for over a year and have never had a problem until now. They were fine as long as I was only using static pages...I guess you can do that and load your servers with hundreds of websites.

On another note, last month I did a Moodle presentation for a large State educational organization here that is interested in doing some online training for its members. They were very impressed and I have a follow-up discussion next week to talk "dollars" for providing hosting and training. If I get that contract, then I will be purchasing (leasing) a dedicated server of my own (probably from liquidweb) and hosting Moodle from there. If I get that contract and get it running well on my own dedicated server, then I may look into becoming a Moodle partner myself and try to grow from there.

If any Moodle partners have recommendations for a good dedicated, fully managed host, I would be interested to hear from you. I've done a bit of research and although Liquidweb is a bit more expensive that some, they seem to have a solid reputation and excellent service.

Steve

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Andrew Sykes發表於2005年 03月 18日(週五) 05:58

We'll im not a Moodle Partner but I do alot of looking around the web. www.theplanet.com I think thats what it is seems pretty good but if you want to use a dedicated server www.webserve.ca they seem pretty good but for me it's the same price to co-locate as it is to get a Commerical Line into my house so for $150.00CAN I get 5 Static IP's and good speeds.

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Mark Stevens發表於2005年 03月 17日(週四) 12:51

I also suggested a Moodle Partner

And the more frequently I see posts like these, I think the best way to go is with a Moodle partner. In fact, I think this is the straw that broke the camel's back for me. In the future, I will only recommend Moodle Partners. As for myself, as soon as my contract is up with my current provider, I'm switching to a Moodle Partner.

At the risk of sounding sectarian or dogmatic, I plan on keeping my money in the Moodle family

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Sean S發表於2005年 03月 17日(週四) 13:56

I'm using shared hosting and get 2gb of storage and 150gb of transfer per month. I'm very satisfied and know of several other moodlers there. I'm using POWWEB.

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Chris Ainsworth發表於2005年 03月 17日(週四) 14:20

Steve
Moodle Parrtners or people who deploy their own Moodle and also host are the key candidates. There are some about where to participate in the Moodle Partner program is not yet viable, yet they use and host Moodle with very high levels of service. If the person you are going to host with also runs Moodle, then you are also likely to get valued service. Those that are not currently in the Partenrs program, by hosting with them may also provide the opportunity for them to commit to the Moodle Partner program.

A Moodle Partner does not guarrantee any formal level of service, just that Martin has vetted their presence. That must also be considered.

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Bill Burgos發表於2005年 03月 17日(週四) 23:59

>A Moodle Partner does not guarantee any formal level of service, just that Martin has vetted their presence. That must also be considered.

Chris,

I am not exactly sure how you came about this conclusion unless you have read the Partner contract with the Moodle Trust Ltd. mixed

In short, as Moodle Partners, we are contractually obliged to keep our Moodle sites up and running at over 99% of the time. In addition, we are obliged to offer service and support of our installation to our customers to a degree of satisfaction as determined by Martin. Any deviance of this will be the end of the partnership.

As a result, we use professionally installed and maintained servers (no garage or basement computers made from used parts). These servers are also guaranteed uptime of over 99%. In fact, the server that this site (moodle.org) is running on is most likely from the same company that a partner is also using. As a Partnership community, we help each other in a myriad of ways that enhance our support and service.

In short, we make sure your installation runs and we guarantee it. big grin

May I ask what other formal level of service are you referring to that a Partner does not guatantee? wink

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Martín Langhoff發表於2005年 03月 18日(週五) 06:10

Moodle Partners also contribute to the Moodle.org project in a variety of ways. Working with Moodle Partners helps maintain a healthy "ecosystem" of partners that work with MD to fix bugs, build 1.5 and beyond.

General webhosting companies don't expect the kind of usage pattern Moodle usually sees. Head over to this thread http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=20453

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Chris Ainsworth發表於2005年 03月 18日(週五) 06:19

Bill
I am aware of the partnership requirements, however I doubt that Martin has audited all partners to establish the full levels of support and installation.

Your comment of "service and support of our installation to our customers" is a normal "business practice / franchise/ partnership" agreement - that is not rocket sciencen nor does it guarrantee any level of service, as there is no $$$ penalty attached to it.

If Partners gaurrantee a level of delivery, how is that guarrentee measures, enforced etc. Unless there is a SLA with each hosted site, that is attached toa $$ penalty the compensates each user for "THEIR TOTAL LOSSES INCURRED" for an interuption to services, then all you have is a agreement that in reality is ineffectual.

Point of arguement. If a current partner is removed form the Partner program, do they also loose the right to host Moolde and provide services to Moodle users? I doubt it, as this then moves into restriction of trade that many countries have legisaltion covering. As for your comment of "Professionally Installed" how is that measured? As an "qualified" external auditor, educator and systems engineer, I can only guarrantee my level of professionalism and qualification at a singular given point in time, where it is measured. The level of my professionalism I believe is measured through continued Professional Development and peer review, something that i underatke on a regular basis. The training, update of skills and "lessons learned" never stop.

Al Moodle Partnerships offers organisations that are planning to have their Moodle precence hosted is a level of satisfaction that at least the person / hosting company does have some insight into the requirements of hosting an effeicient site, will assist the client with technical issuse and have a sense of passion for what they are doing. But at the end of the day, anyone hosting Moodle, has to do so on a commercially viable model, otherwisr they will go under and leave the hosted people out on a limb. There are a few Business changes I would like to see to ensure a stronger Moodle Partnership Program, however I doubt they would be ever introduced, as it means that the client (Moodle User) has the first and last say - andd they will do that anyway - with their feet.

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Bryan Williams發表於2005年 03月 18日(週五) 07:47

Chris,
Where are you going with this thread? It seems you are trying to tell folks something about which you know little (Moodle Partner program), other than the base requirement of submitting an application and what the contract contains. There is more than meets the eye to what Partners are involved in, hosting and first line support is only one thing. And yes, an SLA that all Partners may use is in the works.

By the way, some Partners have a long history of support with pre-existing services, and know full well what concerns the customer most. I wonder if you have considered that fact. Before you get too critical about things you would change with the Moodle Partners program, it might interest you to know that a fairly strong international bond of mutual support has developed among the individual Partners, which is furthering Moodle in many ways you don't know about.

Support for open source software in general is an almost new concept, with many guidelines just now evolving. There are really only a few examples of successful commercial level support for open source (like RedHat & MySQL), the Partners program is a unique model. And yes, like getting out of bed in the morning there is a risk involved in building a business around an open source product. Some are willing to take that risk! wink

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Bill Burgos發表於2005年 03月 18日(週五) 18:42

Chris,

I must admit that you have me completely lost here with your arguments. mixed

In your previous post, you were recommending using the services of someone who is not a Partner, yet. However, you seem to have the opinion that Moodle Partners may not up to the level of professionalism that you seem should be held to because you believe that the Partners have been vetted only.

So, using a hosting service that has not been checked out by Martin is better than one who has? mixed

Your other argument seems to indicate that there should be some compsentation for "total losses incurred" as a standard of guarantee.

Can I ask you to clarify what you mean by compensation for total losses? How it would be determined? An example?

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Martin Dougiamas發表於2005年 03月 18日(週五) 20:30

Yet I notice that your own non-Partner Moodle hosting service has copied the terms and conditions from my web site almost exactly.

I'd love to see you offering some Moodle service and $$ guarantees, if you did I might even consider asking you to be a Partner! I don't believe ANY hosting service on the planet (or software for that matter) offers the kind of guarantees you are dreaming about, so you could be a first!

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由David Scotson發表於2005年 03月 18日(週五) 21:54

Without wanting to take this discussion even further off-topic, but I noticed on the martin.moodle.com page you link to that a $ price is given without specifying US or Australian Dollars, as is done elsewhere. That might cause some confusion for potential customers.

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Martin Dougiamas發表於2005年 03月 18日(週五) 22:57

Thanks, I'd recently moved from USD to AUD and forgot to fix that page.

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Art Lader發表於2005年 03月 18日(週五) 01:48

Chris, you might be correct about the vetting; I do not know.

What I can tell you is Martin generally responds to our concerns in minutes. And we never, ever, ever go more that an hour or two without a resolution to any problem we might encounter.

Of course, I do not know about anyone else's experience with a Moodle partner.

Best regards,
Art

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Chris Ainsworth發表於2005年 03月 18日(週五) 05:57

Art

I am not disputing that Martin responds to Partner issues extremely quickly, however what I am referring to is that Martin cannot guarrantee a partners delivery of services. Martin does ensure that a partner has sufficient resources and support mechanisms, but at the end of the day, he cannot sit over a partner to actiually validate or conduct an audit each partner and the full delivery of services. All that can be done is a sample of end user feedback. It is a different case when you are audited against a real "service level agreement" that has $$$$$ hinging on the end of it.

Like any hosting or in the case of Moddle Parners, there is a huge element of trust, and in the case of Moodle a common bond of a strong product, passionate educational philosophy and a willingness to share.

For the record, I do support the concept of Moodle Hosting, and will consider it, once the level of investment return is there, I am also passionate enough that I ran the first Aussie Moot and am aorganising the second in July this year. From that I hope to establish enough networks and services that will fund another Moodle Partnership in Australia. There are two Parnters here now, and to have a third, means a lot more Moodlers need to use hosting services to make it viable (there is one small issue to with out Taxation laws and partnerships that will be overcome).

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Martin Dougiamas發表於2005年 03月 18日(週五) 20:39

I don't guarantee all the Partner's services, of course, did I ever say I did? However, I do take the selection process very seriously, and at the end of the day we are a bunch of good people doing their best and working together on commercial services. A lot of communication is going on among us which you are not aware of.

I don't need to audit every single Partner client (even though we keep a detailed shared database of transactions), just like ISPs don't audit everything that their clients do. If a problem comes up, however, I'm there to help try and sort it out.

Anyhow, this thread is wandering off the topic, which was some cheap web host selling Moodle without any idea about it.

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Art Lader發表於2005年 03月 18日(週五) 23:46

Chris,

I think that I understand what you are saying, and I have to admit that my experience is limited in this. Maybe I should have thought about this a little more before posting anything.

My experience with several Moodle partners has been so overwhelmingly positive, though, that I guess I have become a little bit of a cheerleader for them - not that they need my help in promoting their services.

I am sorry if I came across as rude or aggressive. That was not how I meant my remarks.

-- Art

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Chris Ainsworth發表於2005年 03月 19日(週六) 14:57

Art

If you have a look carefully - you will see that I do support the moodle Partner program and the people who support / promote it. I am also supportive of people who use Moodle and then host others within their environment - particularly those that have a passion / goal to elevate themselves to a Partner status.

What I am personally saying - and as Moodlers we should all consider this - is that choosing a Moodle hsoting service purely on cost and is maybe just a web hosting organisation is like walking into a minefield. If one cannot afford to host with a Moodle Partner, then at the very least one should choose a hoster that also deploys Moodle themselves before looking at a Web hoster.

Moodle does take time to support if all the patches are tested then implemented on any partciular site.

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Art Lader發表於2005年 03月 19日(週六) 16:50

What I am personally saying - and as Moodlers we should all consider this - is that choosing a Moodle hsoting service purely on cost and is maybe just a web hosting organisation is like walking into a minefield.

I have to agree with you. Just do a search of these forums for "Netmondo" to see what can happen.

-- Art

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Re: Webhost - Could we have a 'I'm happy with my Hosting Service 'List ?

由Joyce Smith發表於2005年 03月 20日(週日) 04:29

Art, well put, you are indeed an excellent 'moderator' and gentleman

,as always!
Whether this forum would be the appropriate place for members to 'list' services, they recommend, with reasons , I'm not sure, (Martin ?) but for newcomers in particular , perhaps it would be useful to have a reference point of a positive nature ? Especially for users (like me) that only want to 'use' their Moodle, not having the knowledge or inclination to be program developers.
My first Moodle adventure was up and running in 20 minutes , and has never missed a beat since Jan 2004 thanks to the 'best' hosting & SUPPORT service (provided by Martin ) Support , as always with software, being the operative word !
I had spent many frustrating hours trying to 'do it myself' , as have others that we see in the forums every day ! It was a tremendous relief to find excellent , professional help!! big grin

Not referring to 'advertisements' of course, but genuine recommendations from satisfied users, with full names noted etc.
Joyce thoughtful

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由N Hansen發表於2005年 03月 20日(週日) 08:42

I have a question for Martin, simply out of curiosity. Since the main reason people seem to be reluctant to host with the Moodle partners is that they are much more expensive than many other hosts, even the not-so-cheap ones, would you consider allowing less expensive hosts be Moodle partners? Is there a minimum price (or actually a certain level of service that is relatively expensive) that Moodle partners are required to charge (or offer)? In particular, I am thinking of shared server hosting, but where each user has their own installation of Moodle.

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Bryan Williams發表於2005年 03月 20日(週日) 11:37

Nicole,

Perhaps Martin will respond, even though this thread has gotten a bit weird. I wanted to add a few remarks in the event he rightly ignores this whole mess. First, Moodle Partners are independent businesses, which set their own pricing. This is NOT discussed among Partners and Martin does not even indirectly comment on what Partners should charge. The price that a Moodle Partner charges for hosting is actually quite reasonable considering two things; first, what you would pay if you were using a commercial LMS, and second the level of service you receive as a client of a Moodle Partner.

For example, during the course of say a year long contract which my clients typically have, they call me many times and email me many more times. They ALWAYS get someone on the phone (or a quick call back) and ALWAYS get a prompt email response from someone who knows about Moodle. If you can do this whenever you want, how much is that worth? Does Net-Lowball give you this same level of service.

It might surprise you to know that people are not "reluctant to host with the Moodle partner" as you put it.

The individual who is uncertain or a bit fearful over their e-learning dream, who looks at month-to-month hosting as insurance against failure, probably is. Most of my business clients seem to be doing well with their sites as they have put a lot of intention and focus into what they are doing. They don't even think about what it is costing them. My schools are very happy to pay the going rate because their IT person can't or won't provide the level of support they need.

It would be great if this thread would stop beating up on Moodle Partners. Our existence may, over time, insure that you have a Moodle to continue to use. How about looking at the big picture for a change! wink

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Andrew Sykes發表於2005年 03月 20日(週日) 11:54

Agreed! No im not a Moodle Partner but I do some webdesign and things of that nature I charge a "RATE" because I am going to stand behind my work 150% and if you have a question day, night weekend I will always answer my cell phone and give you an answer and if I can't talk I will call you back as soon as possible I haven't really checked out many partners except Martin but his prices seem great 500MB and 50GB Bandwidth (Sorry if thats wrong) plus the support you get from the lead developer holy crap I would pay more then that. Plus like the other thread says if you want something to run right and be reliable you pay money for it. Here is a saying my father & grandfather always use "If you charge nothing your worth nothing". I support Moodle Partners 100%

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Re: Webhost - what is the value of service?

由Chris Ainsworth發表於2005年 03月 20日(週日) 15:53

Nichole
You must put hosting in perpsective. Moodle Partners have made an investment into Moodle not so much as a $$ return (although that does play a part) but because in many cases they themselves are Moodle users. There is a lot more to "just hosting" Moodle, or any other web service. Say for instance you have a "web presence", does your ISP also update your pages for you for nothing? I suapect that is all hosting services, you will pay for any chnages, web development etc quite hansdomly. Hope you have a deep pocket.

Whilst not a moodle partner myself, i do offer hosting primarily for small local training organisations and private providers, but the hosting is only a small portion of the service. Services include Professional Development, e-moderation, and assistance in facilitation of their on-lne classes as well as Voice Chat rooms via a third party. It is intersting to note that i am one of a handful of people who has a fomal qualification in e-learning. That is one area of Proferssional Development / Qualification I believe everyone who delivers on-line should hold - and in Aust the equivalent would be a Cert IV in e-learning. To manage a program - people should hold a Diploma in e-learning - but this is only a personal opinion.

Any of the people I support are able to call me any time for general assistance, How many ISP's do you know who provide that level of service? I would suspect that all Moodle Partners would follow a similar support process and hence provide a value for money service.

As a comparison, why don't you cost out the installation of a server, support technition / systems administrator and Professional Development program and see how it compares to charges of a Moodle Partner. i think you may come to the opinion that Moodle Partner or someone providing services similar to what I do turns out to be a very affordable, econimical and justifiable expenditure.

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Angela Gibson發表於2005年 03月 17日(週四) 23:20

Hi Mark,

You're the Mark S. I was referring to! big grin

Just to make sure I'm not misunderstanding - the host you suggested (penguinhost.net) is a Moodle partner? Or that is the host you are with now that you are leaving after your contract is up...?

Just want to clarify.

Thanks!

Angela

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Mark Stevens發表於2005年 03月 18日(週五) 01:07

They are the ones I'm leaving...

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Dave Bethany發表於2005年 03月 17日(週四) 21:26

I host my own using high speed cable with dynamic ip. I use No-IP as a redirect and it works almost flawlessly. I have a constant 670k upstream speed, which works very well. For my servers I have an AMD Athlon XP 2200+ with 1.5 gig ram, Athlon XP 1600+ with 1 gig ram and an old Dell Optiplex PIII 800 with 500m ram. I run under Win2k on all. I run Apache/Moodle on the 2200, I run MySQL and other support programs on the 1600 and NEW on the Dell. Each computer can run all operations by itself. I have the system set where each computer backs up to the other ones at about 2 am. If something happens to one, I can shift to the others quickly.

Like now, because it is Spring Break, I'm doing hardware upgrades to the 2 smaller systems, so everything is running on the 2200+. I'm considering buying an old Dell Poweredge 6300 to use as a main server. These quad Xeon beasts can be found on eBay for under $300. Even though they are old, that is a heck of a machine ($33,000 new in 1999) and can overpower any PC I'm running.

You already have the figures on your monthly bandwidth, this could be an alternative for your needs.

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Thomas Haynes發表於2005年 03月 19日(週六) 19:50

I'm considering buying an old Dell Poweredge 6300 to use as a main server. These quad Xeon beasts can be found on eBay for under $300. Even though they are old, that is a heck of a machine ($33,000 new in 1999) and can overpower any PC I'm running.

Inpired by this post, I went to ebay and checked out the options. I ended up buying a Dell 6350 quad xeon 550 with 4 gb of ram, 3 X 18 gb scsi, etc. It was $500 and $84 to ship. If I had gone with less memory or fewer/smaller hard drives, I could have done it cheaper.

If you are looking into running your own machine, it may be cheaper than you think to het into the game.

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Keith Heinrich發表於2005年 03月 17日(週四) 04:29

Ouch!

Here's the problem:

A detail of the problem is shown below:

User    Domain %CPU    %MEM    Mysql Processes
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX            1.48    0.28    0.2
Top Process     %CPU 57.0       /usr/bin/php
Top Process     %CPU 51.0       /usr/bin/php
Top Process     %CPU 29.0       /usr/bin/php

You've got php consuming half the processor. Sounds to me like the server does not have php setup properly and you got yourself a form letter. I have seen this type of response before on this board actually.

Beats me how you could consume that much resource with one instance of Moodle though. Maybe you are better off with a dedicated server. Have a look at php cache programs as well when you get your server going. I installed mmcache on my (Win) test server and found it made a difference. I haven't felt the need to install a cache on my Linux production server though since it has plenty of horsepower.

Let us know how your new server works out.

Regards

Keith

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Chris Ainsworth發表於2005年 03月 17日(週四) 05:39

Hi Steve
A couple of things come to mind before one blasts away and look at this in a Risk Management perspective.
DID YOU read your full hosting agreement including the fine print and did you sign it? If you didn't read the full agreement (and they are long and unwieldy and not friendly) then there is problem #1.
If you did read it, did you fully understand it and the inplications of accepting such an agreement based on your knowledge of what you were delivering to your students?
Ask yourself if you read the agreement, is this plan sufficient to meet my needs in terms of service level agreements? Your next question - what are my needs? If you cannot answer that - then you need to do a lot more research on the resurces needed to run an effective Moodle environment. You as the owner of your "on-line" need to have that level of understanding.
How much am I paying for this level of service? Look at in perspective, cost out an IT environment to be installed within your own work space. What are the costs and if you are paying a very small amount compared to that, then you need to think long anf hard about that environment. (Use Martin's Hosting costs as a benchmark) If they are significantly lower - then expect the level of service delivery to be significantly lower - you get what you pay for.
If you say that for arguement, that Martin's Hosting costs are too high, then you also need to re-evaluate your business model. I do understand that a lot of people are just starting out and don't have the ready $$$'s, however as educators, wwe have a "duty of care" to our "on-line" students. Whether we like it or not, all education is a business, with costs involved, and someone needs to fund any program.
The BIG QUESTION to be answered is, "How much do you value your reputation as an education business and personally as an educator?" That should give ou an idea of what you need to address.
In my opinion, if your hosting costs are less than half of what Martin's Hosting costs are, then you need to review your level of devlivery service and how othere people are being hosted on the web server. When I hear of 800 sites being hosted on a particular server (complete with 2Gb space / 60 Gb bandwitdth) for a sub $50 per moth, then my response would be "someone has to pay" for both the infrastructure and bandwidth. Yes they work on the basis that few will use anywhere near the bandwidth but at a wholsale rate (Aust here remember) of arround $6.00 per Gb for data, the numbers do not add up, hence the "large numbers of hosted sites placed on servers". You need to carefully condiider "real costs" when planning an on-line e-learning environment.
A suggestion, if you are not using a Moodle Partner, or a hosting company that specialised in deploying Moodle, then expect to see more stories like this in the forum anf your business and reputation suffer as a consequence. I would urge all people to look at your "Business Model and Business Plan" review it and critically question the level of resources you are investing in YOUR future.
Food for thought
Chris A
"without the learner - there is no training"

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Steve Hyndman發表於2005年 03月 17日(週四) 09:37

Chris,

I understand what you are saying and I agree...I would never think of trying to operate a Moodle Business on a shared server. This is an experiment I'm running with a graduate educational technology class (and I'm not saying teaching a college class isn't just as important as operating a business , but if I want, I can at any time revert back to our campus Blackboard system). I don't want to do that, because I want to contine to use an open source system for my classes so my students (public school teachers and administrators) can learn on a system they would actually be able to use in their schools.

I'm sure the TOS from my web host allows them to do this...most webhost can kick you off without reason. What makes this more frustrating for me is that you can actually install Moodle from Fantistico in their cpanel. But it would seem that, at least from my experience, they don't mind you installing it, but you had better not actually "use it" or you will be booted.

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由koen roggemans發表於2005年 03月 17日(週四) 06:50

This is crazy Steve. I have 1700 users and about 50 courses on a shared host.
400MB/ 11GB monthly traffic

I must say my host calculates strangly: for space they only count what's in the www folder, so moodledata... database... knipoog

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Erlyn Baack發表於2005年 03月 17日(週四) 09:29

Steve and Koen,

Like Art, I would like to see you guys name names! I'm especially interested in your host Koen. Thanks!

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Steve Hyndman發表於2005年 03月 17日(週四) 09:46

Hummm...that's a pretty nice way to calculate

When I downloaded my database today it was close to 10 meg and I'm sure that's small compared to most.

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Andrew Sykes發表於2005年 03月 19日(週六) 10:16

My database is 25MB and only have two courses that have no users signe dup and about 90 topics in forums no replies allowed.

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Andrew Sykes發表於2005年 03月 19日(週六) 10:17

Could you tell us the name of your host? Thanks!

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Steve Hyndman發表於2005年 03月 21日(週一) 03:11

Sure, maybe that will get this thread back on topic

My "soon to be ex-host" is LunarPages and like I said, they were a great host up to this point.

Someone in another post here asked about being a Moodle Partner on a shared host...I doubt if that woule be allowed, but I sure wouldn't recommend it unless the server is actually yours. Hosting Moodle with a host who moves your account at will is not a good idea.....take it from me.

Steve

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由S Marie deFerbrache發表於2005年 03月 21日(週一) 01:42

Dear Steve:
I am a web host, and it sounds to me like your host may have made a mistake, or over extended themselves.

I am contantly balancing server load - to handle 'bandwidth' issues - and you should not have had this happen. I have several customers running Moodle and it DOES NOT cause a problem. One customer has over 1000 students moving around inside their site (I know because they were excited when they hit the 1000 mark, lol, and eMailed me).

I just wanted to assure you that Moodle is NOT the problem. Good luck on your own server

HerbMama
S Marie deFerbrache
support@ps-inspired.com
http://www.ps-inspired.com

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Art Lader發表於2005年 03月 21日(週一) 03:05

> ...Moodle is NOT the problem.

Nice to know!

-- Art

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Steve Hyndman發表於2005年 03月 21日(週一) 03:05

Thanks for the note Marie.

My host is getting a lot of bad PR at the moment over webhostingtalk for being quick to boot people when they see the slightest bit of processor usage. They have grown quite fast over the past couple of years and it seems they, like a lot of other companies when they start to grow, begin to care less about their customers. It seems they really don't mind losing customers like me (who actually use their accounts) preferring to host static where they can load up their servers with accounts.

Six months ago, you saw nothing but glowing reviews of this host at webhostingtalk...now they are starting to get a lot of complaints.

Steve

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由S Marie deFerbrache發表於2005年 03月 21日(週一) 22:21

Dear Steve:

This is sad to hear. It really is a shame when people lose sight of the very thing that makes them great.

I personally own 7 sites (4 of which are Moodle sites), and I really got tired of being bounced around. That's how I came to be a host, lol. I now have plenty of room for myself and few others. I watch everything very carefully (to not over extend). This is not an 'ad' for myself, but rather an odd question: If I can do this, why can't (or don't) other hosts do the same? It took me a long time to learn the ins and outs - but I did.

btw, if any of you dare - and have the back ground knowledge (or ability to learn) - becoming your own host is a great way to go. Just keep in mind that you are adding additional work to your schedule. It's not 'flick a switch' and let it run, haha.

Thanks for letting me rant a bit.

S Marie deFerbrache

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由CQB Arms發表於2005年 03月 27日(週日) 19:57

Wow that's sort of crazy...did you have a low budget hosting service or agreement?
Basically there are TONS of small ISP's reselling service that have NO CLUE how to manage bandwidth and get swamped when it comes to the end of the month.
It would seem you have this type of service.

The most I get from my hosting company if there is an issue is a small e-mail.
Your account is approaching 80% of your bandwidth useage for the month.
You have used 79.897 GB of transfer.

At 95% they remind me it's X dollars per gb over.

I would be that your site peaks their bandwidth load at some point and they are getting hit with a huge bill from their upstream provider. It may not even be related to your site perse, it may be that a combination of lots of sites peak them and your's is the easiest to blame.

I'm not going to advocate a particular hosting package or company but there are TONS of them out there that are reputable and allow for decent bandwidth. Many include moodle and if you cna back it up, you can migrate it.

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Re: Webhost Booted me From Server :-(

由Mike Jones發表於2006年 04月 23日(週日) 22:40

Sorry to hear of your troubles. I've just moved to siteground.com and they have responded to my problems very quickly.

Good luck.

Mike

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