Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mark Hilliard -
Number of replies: 101

Hello Moodlers,

After a busy summer and winter with many new Moodle sites, I finally had the chance to install the latest release Moodle 2.x and explore it a bit.

Things I REALLY like at quick first pass:
1. New HTML editor based on TinyMCE is big improvement

2. New Themes look great 

3. Upgrade to Modules Quiz, Wiki, etc. appear to be major improvements

Things I am SERIOUSLY worried about:

1. Inability to import individual 1.9 course backups INTO Moodle 2.0
   (it appears you can ONLY convert an entire 1.9x site into 2.0)

2. Trying to USE or even EXPLAIN the new file/content management system to my users

Has anyone else tried to use the new file management system(s)? 

I am very SERIOUSLY worried the new file/objects repository is going to be so confusing to my existing users that I don't even want to start using it with all the confusion certain to happen here. 

Have others here looked at it and if yes, what are your opinions/experiences?   

Mark Hilliard
Minneapolis, MN

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In reply to Mark Hilliard

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Glenys Hanson -

Hi Mark

The http://www.conversionthingy.net/Default.aspx seems to work well for upgrading 1.9 couses to 2.0. See this thread: Restoring a course created in 1.9 into moodle 2.0

Sorry, can't help with the new file/content management system - I don't understand it at all. But there are workarounds: put everything in Legacy Course Files and pretend you're still in 1.9. I know it's "naughty" to do this but I don't understand why. thoughtful

Cheers,

Glenys

 

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In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mark Hilliard -

Glenys,

Thank you for the "conversionthingy" link! I am VERY intrigued about this!

Your last three lines made my day!!  At least I am not the only one with confusion about the new content management system!!  I laughed at your "naughty" comment - my little secret is I feel the same way!! mixed I actually kind of do understand why they discourage people from using the legacy, it is falling back to the un-necessary copying/redundant copies of learning resource file, but - and I think it obvious why - isn't it interesting the developers felt the NEED to leave the legacy file system in place??? 

Why is that? .... I think at least a partial answer is that the new system is really NOT quite ready and/or intuitive to use and they realized that!!

All I know is I am v. hesitiant to convert when I can't even teach myself to use the new system.

Mark Hilliard 

 

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In reply to Mark Hilliard

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Derek Chirnside -

Mark I have run a few workshops on Moodle 2.  One problem has come with old users shifting over.  There are a few important concepts, like no multiple upload, no traditional linking, Course files is only a legacy item, cannot delete or "organise' files.  Three links at random:

It may be that we need to say "Moodle needs a repository" to be adequate.  Alfresco or something.

I've had difficulty getting my head around it, and getting a clear workflow.

-Derek

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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Derek Chirnside -

Mark.  I know it is a bit sad to reply to your own post.  This is a PS.

My post was much to negative.

We have moved into a whole new world.  Files attatched to activities for instance, security holes fixd, cross course sharing, themes, conditional release.  (Good)  Spaggetti navigation to find the stuf you put there, in file picer, lack of import from 1.9. (Bad)

But the spagetti navigation is fixable, imports will come, nav is on the way to being fixable.  Things will move on as more minds apply themselves.  I'm very optmistic.

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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mark Hilliard -

Hey Derek,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and confirming - for the hundredth time - why the Moodle community is such a good one.  You confirmed all my issues, admitted the challenges and provided some valuable perspective I simply haven't had the time to acquire. 

I completely concur with your take on the value of not using redundant copies and the limitations of links, and thus the need for a new paradigm, but that said the current Moodle 2.x GUI in use for this leaves a huge amount to be desired. I honestly don't know how I would help a person well versed in 1.9 to leap into this. It has been hard - especially -to get  more senior staff to use Moodle and now that I have made inroads I am VERY reuluctant to throw this new interface at them knowing it could setback the hardwon progress we've made.

Is there an active GUI forum at Moodle.org for this 2.0 type issue?  if so I couldn't find it. This area REALLY needs some work!

Mark H  

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In reply to Mark Hilliard

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Don Hinkelman -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers

Martin explained the new file picker (repository list) to us at MoodleMoot Japan this week and I think I am getting the new paradigm. Basically, you can create as many  repositories as you like in Admin (site admin I think). A repository is a folder of files and it can be internal or external to the site. For example, we have 68 sound files that accompany a language learning textbook. We can make a repository for that, or include those files in a repository called "Language Teaching Media".

The developers did *not* want to allow the legacy Course Files in Moodle 2.0 but so many of us users insisted on it.  The reason it is naughty is because it is wasteful (many duplicates and poor sharing) and will delay teachers learning the new system.  I like the new system but hope they can reduce the number of clicks to get to your file.

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In reply to Don Hinkelman

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mark Hilliard -

Don,

What you say makes good sense and the advantages are numerous as you very accurately indicate. I think however the GUI controlling this is HIGHLY un-intuitive.  You right point to lots of clicks (past & through items you are NOT sure of) and for me the loss of the "pre-view" of the image files is a huge pain. If you haven't made a seriously successful naming convention you are bound to click search in la-la land much more than before.  

While I agree with the concept and the improved file management, I have to say the confusing and un-productive GUI is the issue.  My question is did they try to put TOO many things into one GUI?  What could be done to better harness the raw power of this new DB file "repository?"

Mark Hilliard

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In reply to Mark Hilliard

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Glenys Hanson -

Hi Don and Mark,

This discussion isn't just social chit-chat, is it? You've both been making some very useful points on what is probably the most important question for the Moodle community at the moment: how to make the new file management system more user friendly? Maybe they should be summarised and reposted in Using Moodle. thoughtful

Cheers,

Glenys

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In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Don Hinkelman -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers

Where are we?  Social?  I just look at thread titles. wink

Does anyone know a link to a issue tracker on this? Forum postings, alas, do not usually lead to action.

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In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Derek Chirnside -

This is a whimsical post.  Treat it as such.

If all the developers did 1-2 days a month working in the online classroom (with big classes) or in workshops, helping to build real course  IMHO.

OK, explain navigation, breadcrumbs, clickable vs non click links, how to link a file from the course you creared lasdt week, why you need to change 7 files mahually rather than update one central . . . .

Cognitive overload theory is relevant here.  Here is my old workshop process:

  1. blah blah
  2. Assemble your files
  3. Upload them into folders
  4. Chunk courses, design, pen and paper
  5. Create your links
  6. Repeat 5
  7. Blah Blah

Can't do this quick upload/deploy now.

Now there is a constant, SLOW process.  And if you are working in 2 courses (or 5 which is average) the cross course file navigation is clicking hell.  No previews for PNG's.

End of course time. OK, we need to change this file on 16 courses.  Martin has made one small comment in the tracker with a suggestion.  But it was just a passimg comment.

So we have taken security issues (huge progress) and cross course sharing solutions and replaced them with a constant and perpetual cognitive load on builders and teachers.  Do we really need to say "You NEED Alfresco" and work from there.

I reckon if coders meet users we could see some more progress. They may see bright ideas to solve the challenges.

I can think of a lot of ideas.  eg.

  • "Quick upload and deploy File" button.  3 fields (name, decription, browse)
  • Have CHOOSE file or UPLOAD file links in the first file-add screen.  rather than force every time to go via picker.  Reduce 5 clicks to 2.
  • Have a "save, add another" link as well.
  • Have spreadsheet upload (Maybe not)
  • Have a "browse to upload" field in every section with edit mode on.
  • Have repository buttons on the first file page, rather than a click away.

There is no real venue to talk about this.  Not without people saying to me the AJAX double layer JSS SFW/ssl socket layer HTML/java version 4.5001c problem means what you want to do is impossible

This is the 90/10 principle.  Automate like crazy the frequent functions.  Get every coder to do a day's work with the filepicker.

But we really do love you guys.  It's just the filepicker we hate.

</whimsey>

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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Frederic Nevers -

Hi Derek,

I agree with you. There is a serious need to simplify trivial operations such as uploading a file (multiple files while we're at it, I tend to lose teachers I train when I say the word 'zip'...).

Truth is, most teachers I work with do not like using Moodle (1.9) as they find it too difficult to use, and although I have been training teachers for almost 4 years now, I have to agree with them. I used to be able to tell them "don't worry, this will get better with the new version (referring to Moodle 2)", but it seems to me that it has got worse, in terms of usability that is.

Let's face it, people who are part of these forums tend to be more interested in Moodle, and more inclined to know the system better, than 'normal' teachers. Yet, I have come across many users stating how difficult it is to grasp how the file management system works... and it is difficult. Whilst it might be easy for a programmer/engineer to understand the idea behind it (which is great, I am not debating this), why should a 'normal' teacher care about it? It should not even get in the way of teaching&learning. I find it hard to imagine going to my headteacher and ask for a 1 hour training slot with 100 teachers to explain how to... upload files into a system, I would be laughed out of the office.

Don't get me wrong, I love Moodle and I think the community is ace, but I really think that this needs changed quickly or Moodle 2 might turn into Moodle Vista ;) I really hope that a proper discussion, led by teachers, will take place as to which workflows we really need and focus on those needs first. If such a discussion is taking (or has already taken) place, then please let me know as I cannot find it anywhere.

Fred

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In reply to Frederic Nevers

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Tomaz Lasic -

Disclaimer: I'm a 'normal' teacher of 10 years who happens to be working, since last year, at Moodle HQ.

A normal teacher should not care about file management system. Absolutely agree. Much like one shouldn't care about transmission system in a car - you just want it to work and be easy to operate. Right?

There sure is and always has been room for improvement. Moodle 2 has changed some established workflows from 1.x but this may not be such an issue for first-time users of Moodle (2). Time will tell ...

After a lot of heat about file management system (and historically too it seems by the way Fred describes, no doubting you there at all!) in various places, a question comes to mind: Is this because the system is really so poorly designed OR is it because that is what so many people mainly use Moodle for (start with a file dump, then don't progress...)?

Historically, Moodle is more about activities rather than content. It ain't what you feed them, it's what they do with it.

Perhaps start the training with wikis, forums, glossaries etc and finish off with file management system?

Shoot me if you like - I have a thick skin of a teacher big grin

Cheers

Average of ratings: Cool (1)
In reply to Tomaz Lasic

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Derek Chirnside -

Ha Tomaz, a post to bring me a smile.  No 'normal' teacher ends up at MoodleHQ.

Even finishing with the file system will still be a challenge.  If you label the files properly with a long name, then you trash the nice new nav system with a long link.  And there are a few too many clicks.  Start or finish with a file system, it's still a challenge.  What the smart people are doing is just dumping up folders of files.  They are pragmatists.

I know I've said this before: us theorising here is pointless.  It's what actually happens out there with other normal teachers in the various settings: learning by themslves, coming to a workshop or being driven to a workshop etc.

I just checked your bio.  Hmm, a 'researcher'.  Ever researched people using the file system?  Is this the sort of research you do?

"Historically, Moodle is more about activities rather than content" is this an aspirational statement or emprically based?

"Moodle 2 has changed some established workflows from 1.x but this may not be such an issue for first-time users of Moodle (2). Time will tell ..."  Time has told.  It's tough trying to devise a new workflow at the moment.  Not impossible.  The new workflows are just not there yet.  It's like a vacuum.

'Perhaps start the training with wikis, forums, glossaries etc and finish off with file management system?' I guess my final comment: in principle I agree.  Can this be done without a decent file system easily?

Today's reality check for me: from a teacher - "I got sick of writing URL's on the board and I heard Moodle could manage these for me, that's why I was interested"  This is in a room with a chalk board on the back of a swinging panel.  Scary eh??

I'm now up to quite a few people I have worked with in Moodle 2, and have a slew of suggestions for the tracker I'll work on soon.

Also Tomaz - I met up with someone in Auckland last week in the learning support area who told me I should contact you with some questions.  Will do this sometime . . .

Cheers

 

Average of ratings: Very cool (1)
In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Tomaz Lasic -

Ah, Derek, love a straight-talking reply!

'No normal teacher ends up at Moodle HQ...' I had to chuckle at that one. Should I take that as a compliment or a collegial dismissal? wink

Re pragmatists: indeed. Always win (or at least make do).

Re file system: well, we can tweak for sure but we ain't going back. For a bunch of good reasons. Mark Drechsler explains it beautifully, 3 good parts and comments too.

Re workflows: there are things you previously couldn't do and can be quite handy, there are things that, yes, require more bloody clicking and tinkering (and please, it is a bit presumptuous that 'teachers' are the only lot who may struggle with it). Not to dismiss the idea that we mostly hear from people with a problem... We humans are fault-seeking missiles (especially the teaching types, hehe).

Re research: yes, part of my role is to research the use of Moodle. Around the world. In different educational contexts and cultures. And a bunch of other things. But as you would probably appreciate, it is hardly possible to quickly distill the experience of thousands into some sort of 'accurate picture' of file management use. That takes...time, not to mention other resources. I/we do rely a lot on 'anecdotals', posts (like yours for example, love the honest, no-bull assessment as always), reports, conferences, blogs, tweets, Tracker items etc. And then we need to look at the whole of Moodle and its use... we get the hint(s). Anyway, not shying from it but not pretending we're all knowing but neither completely ignorant of issues raised (hey, we use the same file management system too! Oh, forgot we ain't normal...whatever 'normal' is wink)

Re Moodle is more about activities, less content management: Heard Martin speak sometimes? For 'empirical evidence' - Moodle.org is full of it, just not 'neatly packaged' perhaps. Having said that, one can hardly stipulate how Moodle (or a car, or a boat, a chalk, a desk, an orange ...) is to be used by end users. One remains aspirational but realistic too smile.

Re training: I do agree that at some point you wil need to use te file system. But a forum or a wiki doesn't need a bunch of files to operate. Get them excited about and good at using that stuff, not a filing cabinet (yes, yes, I know we all need a filing cabinet...even if a digital one)

Re reality check: I know the scenario EXACTLY. Walked into a new department where their greatest achievement was to colour code the textbooks. "Kompjuta? What's that?" (BTW, that teacher could just display the link, unrelated to file system... exactly what I started using Moodle for first those years ago).

Keep up a circumspect rage and constructive criticism - that's the very thing that has built and kept Moodle going for years. Look forward to your email and your Tracker sugestions.

And all this would be so much easier over a napkin and a couple of beers, don't you think? One day, one day...

Cheers

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In reply to Tomaz Lasic

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mary Cooch -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Agree with Tomaz (well, also agree with much of you too Derek!) This bit:

at some point you wil need to use the file system. But a forum or a wiki doesn't need a bunch of files to operate. Get them excited about and good at using that stuff, not a filing cabinet

I first started showing people how to use Moodle in 2007, quite late by many people's standards on here,  but I remember I used to start with uploading their Word docs and I always used to feel the need to apologise ("don't worry -after coffee break it WILL get easier when we do the forums and stuff!") Then I began to think -" why am I apologising and why am I showing them this stuff first anyway? "How a student takes, or doesn't take, to a subject can often depend on the way the teacher presents it, so I decided to show them the fun and easy stuff first -and leave the harder (and boring) stuff till the end -ie, the filling of the filing cabinet. There's always someone at each school who will want them to put up loads of Word docs/ppts but if I can at least subvert their minds into thinking about other ways to get the students involved that don't involve clicking on, saving and opening Sir's worksheet, then I can think I have made a start in the mini moodle revolution. It's actually easier the younger the pupils and the earlier on the schooling - I mean - I have got a primary school teacher friend trying out Moodle 2.0 for me and she is loving it - I asked her about the file management and she has no issues with it as she doesn't have a need to clutter her course with wads of files anyway -  since her little ones prefer to push buttons than read long tracts. On the other hand, teacher of 18 year olds in a college is most disconcerted - I'm going to suggest he ways he could convert his (electronic) paper based resources to simple ways of using Moodle directly and seeing if that helps - he won't have to struggle with this newfangled file mangement thingie - and his students might appreciate something a bit new in the way their work is laid out?

If I have very limited time (ie an hour or so ) with a group of teachers I show them (1) link to website (2) compose a webpage (3) online text assignment (because it's the same as compose a webpage except the pupils can answer back!) and (3) forum.  I have a handout that is double sided, A4. It says "get your work on Moodle" and one side says "the easy way" and the other side says "the hard way" One side is the compose a webpage and the other side is the upload a file. I explain apparently objectively that both ways have their pros and cons (which is true  -woe betide you if you overdo the copying and pasting from Word into Moodle for example; but woe betide you just as much if your uploaded resource is in MSOffice 2010 and your student is still on 2003) And then I let them work out for themselves which one they prefer.

I think you have more experience than I do Derek of working with people used to 1.9 and moving to 2.0 I have mainly done training recently with those who are brand new to Moodle and go straight to 2.0 -and have had no issues or complaints at all. I will be interested to see how teachers in my own school en masse react when we make the change (not till next year I suspect) to this file cabinet thing. But what I have noticed which might well work in their favour - is that a fair number of them, because they picked up Moodle themselves or just had minimal training (not by me at that time!) is that they don't have an idea of files in folders neatly anyway: if you look in their course files, they have just bunged stuff on, one item at a time via add a resource>link to a file or website and I wonder how many are actually aware that there is a link in the course admin to the "course files" that they could also upload to.  I think this lower level of Moodle course file management knowledge is actually going to be a distinct advantage when they go to Moodle 2.0 -what you didn't know about before isn;t going to be a problem to you in the future! They want to put a Word doc in topic 2 - they will click to "add" in topic 2 as they would have clicked to upload in 1.9 , have it display and leave it at that, vacant of all thoughts as to where it might now residesmile

Average of ratings: Coolest thing ever! (2)
In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Derek Chirnside -

Mary, interesting as usual.

"Easy way" "Hard way" I may use this idea.  cool

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In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Ian Wild -
Picture of Plugin developers

Hi All,

I appreciate I'm coming to this argument late (it's a heck of a busy time here in the UK with the AS/A2/Year 12/13 exams coming up) but I thought it worth mentioning (as I did here http://www.markdrechsler.com/?p=504#comment-2447) that I've never had a problem upskilling staff on the changes in the file system from Moodle 1.9 to Moodle 2.0. I appreciate that it's probably not going to be helpful me saying that to those who have had issues trying to talk around the changes to the implementation (which I rarely have to mention) and to the user interface (which can be a little confusing because different repositories are listed in the file picker depending on what you are trying to insert/link to/copy from).

I'm going to make another one of my provocative statements again (sorry tongueout)... when I first started teaching I was given the following sage advice: "never try and teach something you don't understand."

I'm still wondering... and I certainly don't mean to offend anyone at this point... if those who are having problems with teaching the changes to Moodle 2.0's file handling either don't understand the changes or (and before people start throwing things at me again big grin I think what follows is more likely) don't like the changes and this is being picked up by the people they are trying to train... who are in turn giving them a hard time about it.

What do you all think? Feel free to shout at me if I'm being very unfair smile.

I'm thinking that one good way of stopping this argument about the file picker is to perform some kind of usability study. What does everyone think? Is that something Moodle HQ would do? Tomaz (as you're in the conversation): would that be part of your remit?

Cheers,

Ian.

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In reply to Ian Wild

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mark Hilliard -

Ian,

Yes some your statements are a "bit" provacative (and inaccurate), but that doesn't bother me...what REALLY does bother me is people like yourself (and some Moodle developers) who seem to be ignoring serious useability issues in Moodle 2.0's File Picker that threaten to harm it's current and future acceptance.

There are large numbers of documented problems/deficiencies listed in multiple places such as:
Moodle forum: http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=152694
and here: http://www.mattcornock.co.uk/blog/matt/moodle-2/file-repository-course-files.  And of course right here...

You need to READ the ENTIRE threads and speak to issues raised  by these folks. It is pointless really to speak in generalities about teaching "inexperience" it's much more than that!! I want Moodle 2.0 to "work" but as it exists today it WON'T WORK for my users!

Folks I really respect as knowledgeable, (experienced users like Howard Miller and Eleana Ivanova ) are raising serious issues (that I experienced too) that need addressing.  Elena has posted extensively and explicitly on these issues and had her issues confirmed!!

Basically, I see two "camps" of Moodle users speaking here:

Group 1-those most or "more" interested in moodle's interactive tools (e.g. forums, interacative quizzes, cooperative glossary's, etc) with less emphasis on "content."  Truly "constructivist" evangelists, who may be more likely to be sole instructors/users.

Group 2-Users with a large amounts of dynamic content in many formats (text, video, audio, images, etc) who often need to teach and maintain content cooperatively with multiple OTHER instructors (4, 5 or more!) and may be extensively using larger tests with question banks utilizing images, etc.  These staff frequently link multiple times to a particular content and expect the ability to "replace a file and update all"

If you are in Group 1, it may be that the file picker as it exists will work for you (bully for you!). If you are in Group 2 ( sad ) with real issues of maintaining and cooperatively working on content, then the new "file picker" is really a train wreck of confusion and extra work.

The 2.0 file picker as it sits is the worst of both worlds: it destroys the simplicity of the old model and replaces it with file picker tool that has NONE of features that a REAL repository (like Alfresco) has(e.g. Meta data tagging, version control, clear file ownership, reporting, clear location, management, file conversion, standards, etc. etc).  

But, I think if you read the issues raised here (and in the links I listed), you will see concerns raised that deserve real answers. If no solutions are forthcoming then people in Group 2 are going to need to know how to launch a real working repository (Alfresco, Equella, etc) that DOES respect file integrity, and they need it QUICKLY!!!

I personally have trained 50+ school staff on Moodle for over 4+ years, with VERY good reviews..thank you...approve...so I'm confident my teaching skills are up to the task!  But I don't care how good or motivating you are, if the tool is stuck with crippled functionality your users require, then no amount of sugar coating or "explaination" will cut it.

For example, when you upload a 2.0 file, link it many times, then later upload file with SAME name, and watch Moodle 2x brainlessly create a new "instance" with IDENTICAL display name but NOT update anything, for users it's immediately...grrr..."houston we have a problem here..." 

I really WANT 2.0 to work, but you can't simply break things with no solutions and say change your thinking...it's NOT our "thinking" that's the problem.

Mark H. 

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In reply to Mark Hilliard

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Ian Wild -
Picture of Plugin developers
Hi Mark, Many thanks for your reply and I am considering the back of my head slapped big grin. I do know what you mean regarding linking to files, especially in the higher ed context (which is what Mark Drechsler pointed out on his blog) so I do accept there is a problem. Would the solution be - as discussed on Mark's blog - to have a "create link" checkbox in the file picker? I have been playing with the code to see if I can link to a file rather than copying it internally but so far with little success (I was playing around with repository flags so I wasn't doing anything clever wink ) Is this the sort of solution we're after? Cheers, Ian.
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In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by james mergenthaler -

Mary, so well said.  You have given me a different view of content in moodle.  Think first content and how is it most easily engaged? Think second, a distant second, put the content in a file.

Show them the easy natural stuff first, forums, assingments as a web page...then and only then how to attach files...

I was at a moodle moot last summer, where this concept was discussed and presented.  File and resources should not just be uploaded like in a file cabinet anymore, they should have a context where they are relevent.  The idea that the content should be uploaded and engaged by student in a static file was not the way to go, but rather content as a web page (html) or embedded in a web page (movie) or linked to in its native format.  But content should not be gleened, placed into a static file and uploaded into a static location in a course.

Which was the *better way to create an engaging co-constructionist model with your students and teachers?

Good stuff.

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In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Glenys Hanson -

I didn't rate your post, Mary, as "Very cool" but as "Coolest thing ever!"

I hate this condesceding rating system and it doesn't even work correctly Grr! Grr! Grr!

I've said it before, why can't we have the nice, respectful "Useful" or nothing system here, just like on Using Moodle?

Grumpily

Glenys

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In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers

Originally this course was meant for non-support talk and stuff that is, well, not generally useful.  General discussion about Moodle was supposed to be in Using Moodle...

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In reply to Tomaz Lasic

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Derek Chirnside -

Definitely a compliment Tomaz.

I'm new off any optional Moodle stuff for a few days.  Regional Barista competitions in Wellington to attend to.  No earthquakes and I can drink tap water.

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In reply to Tomaz Lasic

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mark Hilliard -

Tomaz,

I have tried both styles of introducing Moodle, but have not had much success with introducing the interactive parts first and leaving file/resources for later.

My experience has been that student and especially parents REALLY appreciated having the work and supporting "how to" materials available for their kids that lost them, misplaced them, used their copies incorrectly etc.   and they would just about kiss you if you could provide supporting materials to help them so they could help their students outside of school.  This was so common and asked for so often that I started to accept it.  Also if you teach teacher to do four things in Moodle:  1. make links, 2. upload files, 3. organize Moodle to be intuitive to navigate 4. introduce ONE interactive tool like Glossary, or Forums (plus a few misc. skills) you could really help any teacher create a VERY impressive Moodle site.  All the wonderful interactivity could be added a bit later, at a more relaxed pace. I notice movitivated staff often explored the more interactive Moodle Mod's on their own.  The other method might work, but that hasn't been my expereience.

Mark H.
MPls, MN

 

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In reply to Tomaz Lasic

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mark Hilliard -

Tomaz,

This is typical of many experienced Moodle users responses Moodle 2.0 file picker.  Well worth reading and I think the whole group at Moodle HQ would do well to read this...

http://www.mattcornock.co.uk/blog/matt/moodle-2/file-repository-course-files

This is the kind of response (tho not nearly as thoughtful & respectful) that I am getting from almost all of our 1.9.x  Moodle sites when they encounter this.

Mark Hilliard

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In reply to Mark Hilliard

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Tomaz Lasic -

Great post indeed, very thoughtful. Thanks for the link Mark.

A lot of heat in the community (that we hear from, at least...) about FP/file management. As always, room for changes. I for one listen and look at trends, together with many at HQ, but remain circumspect with "I speak for all (normal) users" kinda claims made here and elsewhere - nobody does, let's not fool ourselves with lazy universals.

We'll nut something out, thinking, thinking ... wink

Cheers

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In reply to Tomaz Lasic

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Paul Jacobson -

Hi Tomaz - sorry to have missed the MoodlersWA at Leederville - too busy on the Moodle (true).

I find Moodle 2 File Management in its entirety, unduly confusing. To simplify matters I have gathered most of my visual resources in Picasa Web Albums and VIOLA! I feel at home again. Everything is accessible and understandable.

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In reply to Paul Jacobson

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Tomaz Lasic -

Glad to hear about Picasa Paul, good work. That's what Picasa web albums (an external repository) is for and what it does (best).

Interesting a few of these 'see, we told you...'replies adressed to me ... wink

All good, I love passion and willingness to critique constructively!

PS Re MoodlersWA: I put a recap of the night in our online space at ozmug.com.au. Look forward to catching up next time.

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In reply to Tomaz Lasic

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mark Hilliard -

Tomaz,

You make a very good point about the danger of speaking "in general" for anyone. I think it was C.S. Lewis who said you can't get to know people in general, you can only know them as individuals. He was a wise man..so I should clarify where I am coming from...

I have worked in last 4-5 years with about 70+ Moodle schools and know a LOT of people using Moodle. So far everyone (15+ experienced users I know and trust) that I've let use the new File Picker in our demo sites has been either disappointed, or very confused and is wondering how to introduce it to staff far less patient than themselves. When I add my frustration and see theirs, I see a trend that really worries me.

Someone in this thread I think pointed out that we as "techies" generally bring more patience and experience to the table than do teachers with 150 students, many preparations, and a 22 minute lunch. These hard working folks won't have patience for confusion and inefficiency. If we can't improve File Picker then we need to do what Martin D. himself suggested at one of his presentations, and take integrating real Repositories like Alfresco, Equella, etc. etc seriously and get them working NOW! 

Moodle has never had a real repository and the File Picker is really more of a Repository POINTER than it is a real Repoistory. (I would be glad to compare features of say Alfresco to File Picker anytime...) Again, I love the new features of the rest of Moodle 2.0 - some to die for - but this is just a critical part you can't get wrong if we want the whole effort to succeed - which we all really do!

Mark Hilliard  

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In reply to Mark Hilliard

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Jeff Martin -

Just making another reply to this group to keep the discussion hot.  I am a Drupal admin and now working to learn Moodle administration in order to create a top shelf LMS for our company.  I am sold on everything I see about Moodle, but I was quite confused by the file upload tool myself...

1. The interface seemed 'admin' looking so I was surpised when it was the same for the student user.  I appreciate the beauty of once size fits all when writing software, but the student user experience needs to be simple simple and the admin user experience needs to be complete access.

2. I didn't understand the 'deep' hierarchy through folders that seemed unneeded to actually get down to my file.

3. The relinking of a media file once deleted from a html page is broken with the message, 'File Already Exists'

4. I have read the linking to an already uploaded file creates a second copy of the file for yourself.  The interface doesn't communicate this at all and could be quite confusing.

In Drupal admin I personally use both their core file upload facility with is quite simple, what you see is what you get.  Any page can upload a file or multiple files to the page.  You can remove the files from the page or delete the page and the file is gone, period.  Then I also use a contributed module called WebFM that is a complete repository.  That is I can upload files through FTP or within the WebFM upload tool first, and then attach them to my page or multiple page.  If I delete the file it is gone from all pages.  If I overwrite the file the change is seen by all pages.  For me this strategy is the best of all worlds because I have both simplicity and advanced file uploads according to my own preferences for any given page.

C.S. Lewis'  'Space Trilogy' is my all time favorite fiction.

Yours,  Jeff

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In reply to Jeff Martin

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Derek Chirnside -

Just a few quick comments:

  1. 'admin' looking.  This is a concept I am unfamiliar with.   The miond boggles actually.  smile  in my experience the students do better than the others.  I like simple AND complete access.
  2. point taken.  There is sure to be a reason
  3. need more detail.  This sounds like a question that needs to be elsewhere.
  4. Not quite right.  A second same file is not dupicated.  See http://docs.moodle.org/en/File_handling_2.0  I know there is a better statement than this in the docs somewhere, but I can't locate it at the moment.

Drupal is just plain different to Moodle.  There is no drupal install 'out of the box'.  It needs carefull and skilled setup.  Moodle is catering for a huge middle ground of users.  Like Teachers, who build, create, manage etc.  Not really possible in Drupal as it is.  Drupal is more like a framework and as such is more powerful than Moodle, but it is not an LMS.  You are not alone in having trouble making the change.  I went from Moodle to Drupal.

The romantic view is here:

Chris Pirillo wanting to create some standard installs/builds in Drupal to make it more accessible.  2008.  Three years later we are really no further ahead.  Moodle unleashs power to the middle non-tekky user, even at the Site manager level.  Drupal cannot do that.

Re the picker: in March, at the tracker, I found this: http://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-19849 and I commented here: http://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-19075  I'm suggesting the nine clicks to add a file be reduced to 2, but no takers yet.  A whacky suggestion I now, but I suggested ONE button extra in the editor:

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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Jeff Martin -

Derek, thanks. Yes Drupal is a framework as you say so its configurability and extendability is much more full featured than a CMS or LMS.  I really had to work hard to become a Drupal admin novice and so am glad for the break to learn Moodle which is not nearly so complicated smile. More detail on the enumerations above...

1. On other pages on the web and even in Drupal's core filehandling when there is a file upload button, one is usually just take to the windows file locator dialogue, you find the file, and you upload,  done.  So when Moodle pops of their own dialogue with 'server files', 'private files', 'recent files', and 'upload a file' it just seems like  more than is needed to upload a file.  I probably need to read more to understand what 'server files' and 'private files' are.  But why do I need to do that when as a user I just wanted to upload a file.  The extra stuff seems like it will raise unneccessary questions.

2. wonder what the reason is.

3. yes this is probably an issue unrelated to the file picker methods, here is one forum discussion on the subject, http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=171539#p760045

4. I need to study these docs.  I am new to Moodle and am missing some things in my understanding.  The doc you refer to clearly says Moodle does not duplicate the file, but this guys article suggests that it does, http://www.mattcornock.co.uk/blog/matt/moodle-2/file-repository-course-files. 

Ya know I think if I simply understand the file picker 'context' and also the meanings of 'server files' and 'private files' I will be a long way towards feeling comfortable with the tool.  It is a legitimate concern to ask why do I need this to be explained to me in the first place?  File picking dialogue boxes have been around for decades and people are comfortable with the way they work.  Perhaps some small improvements to the File Picker flow and terminology is all that is needed.

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In reply to Jeff Martin

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Derek Chirnside -

Re point 4.  Matt's blog post.  There is a comment on this post which corrects the errors of fact that you allude to.  I've posted there in the to see if Matt could update the blog post more clearly in light of the facts.

Re point 1. Hmm.  Agreed.  I've suggested a link in the editor additional to what is there equivalent to "Upload a file":  http://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-19075 "Single click upload", an old request from May 2009.  Some dialogue there, but no evidence of a plan yet.

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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Matt Cornock -

Hi Folks,

Glad to see that the debate on the FP is still going strong.

I've reworded the bit in my post about duplication - apologies for any confusion I've caused. There is duplication of a sort. From the docs 'Previously, if a file was used in different courses, it was duplicated. In Moodle 2.0, files are stored only once, saving disk space.' really needs to be followed by 'However...'. Duplication does happen when a file is changed (I think it's still only possible to delete and reupload rather than overwrite??), it is only changed for the instance in that course, the other instances still use the old file still (so I've come to believe duplication - anyone who is checking needs to bear in mind the delete cache problem too). When using external repositories, copies are also created from the external repository unless using the URL linking method - a bit counterintuitive for the user when they belive they're dealing with files not websites.

The best post which explains duplication through different linking mechanisms is this one by Elena.

So yes, it's probably better in terms of reducing duplication than 1.x but very confusing in terms of how file instances are represented to the end user. Which I think is aptly reflected in my questionable explanation. The Moodle docs page linked above has a section headed 'What are ways to make ONE change in a file and have this reflected across a Moodle site? ... This also requires a change in thinking' which I think shows the problem! Essentially, anything users knew about computing before needs to be discared for a new metaphor. 

I'm afraid over the last few months I've been working on a different project (i.e. I could be very much out of the loop), but will happily return to checking any Moodle FP developments next month and update/write a new post if anything has occured.

Matt

p.s. I don't know if this file overwrite usability problem has been truely fixed yet - if anyone wants to follow it up: MDL-24410

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In reply to Tomaz Lasic

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mark Hilliard -

Tomaz,

Though it may not sound like it, I "love" Moodle.

I have been a Moodle evangelist for 5+ years.  I was promoting Moodle  when people loved mocking the name...Moodle, Poodle, doodle...etc. Well the staff who laughed years ago aren't laughing now!  But in the midst of huge new interest in Moodle we run head long into the file picker issues. 

I really honestly want the file picker to work better for everyone (new and old) using Moodle.

What is the best way to participate constructively for useful changes? Are the developers willing to listen?   Can changes still be made?

Mark H.

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In reply to Mark Hilliard

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Derek Chirnside -

Mark, you ask: "What is the best way to participate constructively for useful changes?"

Helen has clearly said (often) use the tracker.  On this basis I had a look this morning, I was sure there were issues on the File picker System files, but I can't find one.  So I have created this: http://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-27236

In actual fact, looking at these there are still some gaps. 
Like the ability to upload files to a File system repository without FTP, within Moodle.

Adding a tracker item is a little bit theraputic in that you need to try to express the issue clearly and consisely.  But I'm not sure many of the right people read the tracker.

Mark, as to your other two questions to Tomaz, I do not know the answers.  They might not qite be the right avenue of inquiry.

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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Don Hinkelman -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers

Hi Derek,

Thanks for hunting the tracker links. I am not so worried about these two issues, because the Project Course Format handles it now in 1.9, and it is being upgraded to 2.0. I still voted on these two, because they should be in core.

But this is worrisome.

  • there are still some gaps.  Like the ability to upload files to a File system repository without FTP, within Moodle.

I assumed that it is easy to create an internal repository and upload zip packages of files into it.  Am I wrong?  Is FTP really necessary to upload into a repository I create?  None of my teachers will touch FTP and the whole point of collaborative curriculum building is to share, upload, revise and reuse materials. That has to be easy.

Could you make an issue on this for us to vote on?  I am afraid I am not familiar enough with the details of the problem.

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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mark Hilliard -

Hello Derek,

I'm still plugging away testing Moodle FP 2.x and am convinced that some of the Tracker issues need to be "voted for" and get their priorities bumped up. 

Are you aware of any other Tracker requests for modifying/updating the Moodle 2.0 file picker with missing functions that we should be promoting or sharing with more folks? ( Personally, i would like to see the ability to SEE a JPG or GIF image again )  

Any progress you know of being made to improve FP 2.x?

Mark H.

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In reply to Mark Hilliard

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Tomaz Lasic -

Never questioned your support of Moodle Mark, it is EVIDENT from you engagement in this conversation and beyond.

Re your three questions: Derek answers the first one well (Tracker, as per Helen's suggestions and urging over the years).

The answer to the other two is a qualified yes - as it has ALWAYS been the case with Moodle.

Developers are listening and have always listened, this one is no different. If it means wanting Moodle exactly as you would like it...well, then we have a normal 'problem' of dozens the developers hear from and thousands, no, millions of other views, wishes and choices to juggle.

Aside, this criss-crossing conversation reminds me of the need to perhaps address the design of standard Forum ... wink

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In reply to Tomaz Lasic

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by ben reynolds -

Following up Tomaz' post with a note that one of the workshops at Moodle Moot UK 11 is

How to change Moodle: working with Moodle HQ run by Sam Marshall, The Open University

Echo 360 is recording all the workshops, and the workshops should be up after the Moot ends. I do NOT know whether they will be open to all, but keep an eye out.

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In reply to ben reynolds

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Derek Chirnside -

Ben, do you know where I go to see if this recording on "How to change Moodle: working with Moodle HQ"  is available??

Seriously, I had to smile at this.  I've thought for a while that relating with the folks at MoodleHQ and Moodle Partners and Moodle Partners Partners is a lot like the old 1960's poster (and misquoting here)

"You have your bag.
And I have mine.
You are not in this world to live up to my expectations.
I am not here to live up to yours.

But when we meet, which often happens: it can be pretty good"

-Derek

And just so I don't need 2 posts today: 31 teacher Moodle immersion experience yesterday in the back streets of Wellington for 170 minutes on Moodle 2.0.  Claustrophobic room.  No decent coffee.  Great teckky people, good vibes all round.  It was just great.  Still feeling good. 
Sometimes, everybody wins. cool

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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

We were told that presentations will start appearing online from about 5th May. Follow https://twitter.com/#!/ulcc or http://mootuk11.org.uk/blog/

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In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by ben reynolds -

What Tim said. Love that 60's stuff. I believe that was part of something titled Desiderata or some such.

Tim, nice job at MootUK11. I was in the front row.

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In reply to ben reynolds

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mary Cooch -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Desiderata - oh  you take me back  Ben m'dearsmile Number 1 for weeks and weeks when I started high school -  and full of myths about its origins!

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In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by ben reynolds -

I think I've just messed up the reference. Mary, you're talking about "Let us go placidly" or some such, I think. I put the title on the wrong set of lines. Oh yes, AND, there's a Baltimore connection! http://www.businessballs.com/desideratapoem.htm

But, glad to have returned you to high school (assuming you liked h.s.)

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In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Derek Chirnside -

Re the UK Moodle Moodle videos.
They have started appearing here: http://mootuk11.org.uk/videos/ up until part way through day1.

Sam's presentation is not up yet (as of 16/5) but the slides are here: http://www.slideshare.net/sammarshall_ou/how-to-change-moodle

Fascinating. The slides hint at things, but I'll have to wait for the spoken word to really get it.

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In reply to Tomaz Lasic

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Derek Chirnside -

Tomaz, Just checkin in again, wondering if now that 2.1 is out if there will be any consideration of the file issue.

I know we have all got our personal priorities.

But this does seem to be a significant issue.  Some of the tracker enancements, some of the un-answered specific questions in the forums are just sort of hanging at the moment.   The discussion and the tracker issues has got quite distributed.

Is anyone thinking about this?  Is anyone doing anything maybe?

-Derek

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In reply to Mark Hilliard

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Colin Matheson -

I know this is a rambling thread with a lot of points, but I just want to through my two cents in on why the File Picker needs to be changed.(My perspective: former teachers, now ed tech trainer, Moodle admin/evangalist)

One of the greatest things I did for my Moodle users was to install the multiple file upload module http://moodle.org/mod/data/view.php?d=13&rid=3546&filter=1

It changed uploading a single file from 8 clicks to uploading tons of files files in 4. Does this mean that I am encouraging document dump Moodle and poor instructional design by making file upload easy and intuitive?

No for two reasons.

  1. File upload is actually very empowering to students-they are less at the mercy of the teacher to get lost or missed handouts.
  2. I consider file upload to be the gateway into Moodle for teachers who don't get the web (yes they are still quite common).

When I first used Moodle I rarely uploaded files and instead set up forums, chat, databases, student created glossaries, quizzes, wikis, heck I even used and loved the 1.x workshop module; but that was my method, and I have learned that I can't force my viewpoint/workflow/teaching style on others. Most other teachers want to get all of their files online and be comfortable with that for around 1 year before they are begin to experiment with student interaction online.

So why is easy and intuitive-to-a-non-techie file upload so important? It is all about the affective filter. If I can have my teachers experience some success in a training session, then they leave with a positive view of Moodle as a tool they can use in their teaching. If they have that positive experience, then they are more likely to attend another training, more likely to continue to work on their own, and more likely to grow into the interactive uses of the web in their class.

So what does intuitive-to-a-non-techie file upload look like? It looks just like a folder on their computer (ie like Moodle 1.x, but better).

It should do the following:

  • Allow teachers to organize their files into folders that make sense to them (it should allow tagging for multiple categorization, but most people will just want to use folders)-drag and drop organization and ajax-y renaming!
  • When teachers move or rename a file it should move/rename any thing that points to the file.
  • When teachers upload a file with the same name, it should ask them, "Replace? Cancel? or New file with a slight rename?"
  • From computer to a link on their front page, should be as simple as drag and drop (imagine: a teacher drags a file from their desktop onto their Moodle page and it uploads and creates a resource link!)

I understand that file management needed to change because files are used in lots of ways in Moodle besides teacher files (quizzes, forums) and it allows for some AWESOME new features (student files, external repositories)-however the back end change should still allow teachers to interact with their course files just like they do on their computer. Every teacher I know has a folder for each course they teach on their computer, they want to get that folder online. Moodle file management is broken until we can say: "Here is how you upload a file for students to access in 3 easy steps" and "This folder on Moodle has all of your course files." (all course files meaning every file the teacher has made and uploaded for students to access).

Then for pro users we can say, because we are using Moodle 2.0's awesome file system: "Did you know you can pull in your google docs, dropbox, and flickr files easily?", "Did you know you can download all of the attachements your students posted to a forum in a blink?", "You can download a question bank full of images and share them, no problem!"

Teachers need a true Course Files area on Moodle 2.0.

Average of ratings: Coolest thing ever! (2)
In reply to Colin Matheson

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mark Hilliard -

Colin,

Wonderful post!  I think you and I may be "twins" separated at birth wink just joking...I'm a lot older than you! 

But, you literally took the words right out of my mouth in your post and  made some powerful arguments that clearly stated the strong reasoning behind the "need" for simple file tools for Moodle to be effective.

Wow...Just a great post! 

Reading your ideas helped me clarify in my mind why some practices I have been using in training last few years were effective over long term with staff, and so well received.  There really are good reasons to let many staff get started with Moodle this way...and YES I can confirm it ...many of these cautious teachers move way past uploading files to other fun, creative uses of Moodle as a Constructivist Learning app!!

Your suggestions for changes/modifications are spot on!!!  Let's make sure these get voted on and promoted!  Moodle is too great an app to fail in this way and after all the progress it has made.

And thank you for taking the time to share your ideas and suggestions...the Moodle user group is - and may it always be - one of the best places to share teaching ideas with a world of good people!!

Mark Hilliard

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In reply to Mark Hilliard

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Don Hinkelman -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers

Hi Colin,

Let me join with Mark on complimenting a carefully-articulated argument for 2.0 improvements and some practical suggestions. Well stated!

Now the hard part. Could you make four tracker items for the suggestions you made? It might take more than an hour if you have never done it before, but nothing will happen unless a tracker item is made and you re-post here with the tracker numbers for us to vote on and watch.

  1. Drag-and-drop file organization system
  2. Site-wide moving/renaming of files
  3. Prevention of uploading duplicate-named files
  4. Drag-and-drop one-click resource embedding into course page

Did I state those correctly?  You might search a little to see if there is a duplicate tracker item first, but even if you miss a duplicate, it's OK. Someone will combine them.

Thanks!

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In reply to Don Hinkelman

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mark Hilliard -

Don,

Bless your concrete-sequential little heart!!  wink   this is exactly what we need to do, and THEN spread the word to get people to VOTE and Support them ASAP.  these issues won't solve themselves! 

Here's a thought...Would it be possible for us to collect these what...4-6 Tracker items in a single post with really succinct  summarys (maybe pics?) so people can see WHY they need to vote and see everything in ONE spot?  

I would volunteer to help work on this.  I love Moodle and hate to see this one area of weakness give it such a bad rep when Moodle 2 has so many other good things to enjoy!  If we just don't sleep...I know we can do it..smile

Mark H.

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In reply to Colin Matheson

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Rosario Carcò -

>>Teachers need a true Course Files area on Moodle 2.0.

I agree with you. And never forget that students have gotten bored to download each file individually. And after download they never know whether the teacher changed/updated that file and whether they really downloaded EVERY file.

That's why I often suggested to the students to ask their teachers to upload also a zip-Archive with all of the uploaded files, so as to reduce download to ONE big file.

But this has its drawback too, because the files are in the course's file area TWICE, one copy for direct reference/linking and one in the zip-archive for simple download. And of course double data means also that the automated zip-backup-file will be double in size and double the size also on the data hard disk.

So the automated backup should be enhanced by the option to EXCLUDE certain files, like *.zip, *.doc, *.jpg, etc. at the discretion of the teacher himself, who knows what is important data in his own course and what can be uploaded again from the source/repository where he stores his files outside of Moodle, not only at admin's global level for all courses as it is presently. This would help reduce backup times and sizes of the backup-zip-files. The admin options at a global level for all courses could include EVERYTHING to allow for complete course backups. But teachers should be able to exclude whatever they feel unimportant to the course itself because they have the data safe in another place and being able to upload that data with a few clicks if the course has to be restored or transferred to another Moodle server. Of course all links on the course page must be maintained intact and transferred to the backup-zip-file. Only the files referenced should be left away if the teacher decides to do so.

Not to mention that teachers have to upload each single file, unless they use the same trick uploading a big zip-archive and expanding it directly in the files-folder of their course. Or make use of a third party upload tool.

So, besides the admin's point of view I already mentioned in this thread, there are User Interface and User Behaviour questions that should have been addressed also in this new file system.

Students asked for DropBox functionality to keep their files up to date and synched with the course's file area. One reason more to have a real course file area.

BUT THINK, AND HELP ME THINK, about this one behavioural aspect: WHY should they DOWNLOAD a file at all? a file that is

1) centrally available on a server

2) always up to date

There is absolutely no need to synch anything with data you access on a server by any imaginable means at any time. But reality shows us the opposite behaviour:

- users synch their eMails (and other data) down to their portable devices like notebook computers, phones, mp3-players, carrying and storing lots of copies everywhere

- they seem to feel more comfortable if they have an own copy of the centralized data, despite the fact that their storage-devices are less safe than servers are

- they behave also in the opposite way: they produce and store data locally before they upload to a central server share or web-space, exactly as we do in Moodle

Rosario

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In reply to Tomaz Lasic

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Frederic Nevers -

Hi Tomaz,

thanks for your reply and sorry for taking so long to reply, I've had a million things to do lately mixed

I agree with you when you say that quite a few teachers use Moodle as a 'file dump' to start off with. This is certainly something I have witnessed with the teachers at my school. To a different degree there is pressure from parents, management, other teachers and students to use Moodle (at least in the type of environment I work in), and some teachers just do not feel IT competent enough to start using Moodle with wikis, forums & the like. There is also the fear of a blank Moodle course, posting (already existing) documents in a course eases that problem. This helps 'easing' Moodle onto teachers.

I have found discussing with my colleagues that they feel good 'finding their feet' on Moodle making presentations & course materials available at first, and then try a more collaborative approach, "less daunting" is the sentence many have used. I am worried that this approach, which allowed me to 'reel in' the technophobes has now disappeared.

Having used Moodle for quite a few years now, I agree that the more collaborative and participative activities are what works best and I have helped colleagues who were 'stuck' at the 'file dump' level to use those and they are delighted with it. I have witnessed some great uses of Moodle; would it have been possible for those teachers to achieve the same following a different learning path? I am not sure.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that whilst there have been clear improvements in the way Moodle manages files, it seems that there is a significant number of Moodle users who are very confused with the new system. I am worried that the people who are voicing their opinions are only the tip of the iceberg; We must keep in mind that people on this forum 'care' about Moodle, a feeling that is not shared by all. I wonder how many admins are staying on 1.9 just because of this, do you know? I might start some sort of a quick survey and circulate it on Twitter.

By the way, I would never shoot anybody - not over this anyway big grin

Fred

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In reply to Frederic Nevers

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Randy Orwin -

Hi Fred,

I just wanted to touch on two points that you mention in your post. The first is your comment that "Moodle 2 might turn into Moodle Vista". Unfortunately I have already seen this as a problem. I do Moodle training all over the US and have presented on Moodle for the last 6 years. Since the first of the year I have done multiple workshops and training sessions at a number of conferences and schools. The number of Moodle 2 users has been very small at these conferences, but I have yet to hear a positive thing about Moodle 2. The words heard most commonly are "hate", "aweful" and "sucks." This does not bode well for the Moodle community. People are finding 2 to be more difficult to use because of the prior experience with 1.9, very similar to the outcry from people when they first saw MS Office 2007.

Now I do believe that part of the problem with these folks was the manner in which their upgrade was completed with little to no training and folks floundering to get their work done. They are frustrated because it takes more time to do the same kinds of things and as we all know, time is something that we in education can't seem to get enough of.  That being said, I do believe that the issues with the new file system need to be addressed because unfortunately, in many of the institutions in which I work, Moodle is being used more as a classroom web site and a learning materials repository for teachers to store their handouts, paper based homework activities etc... Many of these teachers are just now getting their classes online and still have access issues to deal with on a daily basis.

This leads me to the other point you mention and that is about "zip" files. I always teach folks about zip files and for the most part I don't seem to have too many problems getting teachers to grasp the concept of what a zip file is and how to create it. It also is one of the more popular things I teach because it does allow them to load more than one file at a time.

As I do more work with people I will post in the forums about my successes and failures with Moodle 2.

Average of ratings: Very cool (1)
In reply to Randy Orwin

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mark Hilliard -

Randy,

Your experience is almost exactly like mine!  I too am introducing Moodle 2.0 (or rather I "tried" to introduce it) and am NOT getting a good reception. whether we like it or not, many teachers - probably guided by mentors like me - try to start out simply using Moodle as a home-work and assignment repository. They often naturally and gradually start using more of the interactive elements LATER, but they start with basics like homework, etc. because it makes sense, parents like it and it's practical.

In past I could like you teach the 15% of Moodle that had 80% of value by teaching them how to config settings, link to websites, upload and link files, and maybe a module or two in half a day, including the zip files tips which my teachers loved too.    No more... it is very difficult to even  explain where things are going or how to upload many docs quickly.

For me, I'm going to wait a good while before I try to push this new and very inefficient paradigm on old or new staff.   Moodlers need to take a serious look at a new UI for the file picker...one that people will embrace. Until then I will only play with 2.0 features, NOT deploy it.

Mark Hilliard

Minneapolis, MN

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In reply to Mark Hilliard

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Dan Trouten -

Hi Mark!!! I saw you were from the Twin Cities and had to say hello! It's my old stomping grounds. My folks always took us to Como for the Conservatory about this time of year. Enjoy as spring moves in up there!!!

Dan

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In reply to Dan Trouten

Re: Twin Cites Moodlers

by Mark Hilliard -

Dan,

I have been so involved in "file picker" issues that I missed your post! I really never expected my comment to start this dicussion...

But, hey...where in the TC area did you call home??  I note you moved away...?  Could it be anything to do with 2 inches of snow in APRIL!!????   smile.....

Mark H.

 

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In reply to Mark Hilliard

Re: Twin Cites Moodlers

by Dan Trouten -

Hi, Mark!!! I started out in Oakdale in East St. Paul just past the 3M facilities. Then the college my dad worked for moved out west of the Twin Cities so I ended up in Waconia. When I was in hs my dad switched colleges to one here in SC and I've been here ever since.

We actually got 6 inches of snow here and being a true Twin Cities boy I had a plastic boat sled for my 4 year old to go down hill in. Every time it's going to snow here all the bread and milk disappears off the shelf. People just MUST buy bread and milk if it's going to snow. They'd be buying bread and milk back in MN 5 times a week for months!!!

As for starting discussions...2.0s file structure is apparently much different from 1.9. So, since I'm just starting my first version is 2.0...no relearning...just learning. Still, much of the documentation for 1.9 apparently doesn't apply to 2.0 in areas of file structure as I have noticed from one of my own posts (about videos) and from others. It will be good when a "2.0 for Dummies" comes out!!! wink

You been in MN your whole life?

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In reply to Mark Hilliard

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Derek Chirnside -

Randy, Fred, Mark (et al): Interesting reading your posts, you should all re-read them as a whole.  I'm not quite as pessimistic as you guys.  I've just finished my third Moodle 2.0 workshop with teachers. (Here) and have two more next week.  I'm getting the hang of some of the things you need to work around in Moodle 2.0 when hlping others learn.  I'm optimistic these Modle 2.0 problems are on a trajectory to be improved. I put up a few small tracker posts, and some more to come. I know I am largely taking to myself and 4 others, but little by little. . . .

In Staff PD: I'm convinced of the need for some early "experieince" of Moodle as a user before hitting the design/build part, and for this reason I'm not very willing no adays to do Moodle in anything less than 180 minutes.  This is also why  have elsewhere advocated Moodle developers spending a little time sometimes in teaching Moodle to users or teaching in the "classroom".  mixed

In some ways we need to take this discussion offline a bit to consider the question of staff development, Moodle training, workflows etc.  There is a forum opening up soon (maybe tomorrow) around the Moodle Moot in Alberta.   Can post details if you like.

Whimsey: on a completely different track: MOODLE IN A SUITCASE:

A friend did this for me in a couple of hours with an old laptop and a new router.  There is a shortage of good venues here in my town, and MacDonalds wireless is throttled.  So: run Moodle workshps from a server in a suitcase with a superfast wireless-n box.  Anywhere.  approve

-Derek

Average of ratings: Coolest thing ever! (1)
In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mark Hilliard -

Derek,

Love the Moodle in Box!  Maybe you could call it "Moodle - ska'Doodle" ?

on sadder note...I have been working steadily with File Piker (Freudian slip) I mean Picker for week plus now and unfortunately "love" is not blooming.

I found a very good thoughtful evaluation of FP 2.0 by a young man from UK that captured my experiences exactly. (see post: http://www.mattcornock.co.uk/blog/matt/moodle-2/file-repository-course-files) Moodle HQ should see this.

I am working through all of his testing point by point and have confirmed many of same things.  e.g. today tested the identical file upload and rather than replacing a file I  got two identical copies (impossible to tell apart) and no warning.  Behaviors like this will certainly to cause confusion and major inefficiency.

On plus side I keep discovering new things I like about Moodle 2.0 - NOT related to File Picker - but if you take using files seriously (and I have to...) FP 2 is a deep, deep hole.  ;-(

what do end users see...this...oh my where to start to explain this?  How to know what you've used or not??  How to find which is which?

Mark H.

Attachment File-Picker-Confusion.JPG
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In reply to Mark Hilliard

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

Don't explain that!

Seriously, what are you trying to accomplish that gets you there?

The things most people actually need are:

  1. Upload a file.
  2. Recent files, helps to save time if you need the same file two different places in quick succession.
  3. My private files: If there are some files that you use all the time, put them in My private files, where they will always be readily accessible. Some examples of this migh be if you have a set of icons you like to use to brighten up you feedback, or perhaps you have a few documents like "writing full sentences", "common punctuation mistakes" etc. that you often want to link students to.

That is all.

I can see that there are situations where server files would be useful, but they are rare. Suppose you do happen to remember that something you now want is in a specific place in another course, and you remember exactly where that is, then the Server files plugin gives you a way to go and get it wihtout uploading it again, but really, that is a rare use-case, so this is not an important part of the UI.

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In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Derek Chirnside -

Tim, agreed, this is good - this is converging on a simple view.  (as Einsten, make things as simple as possible but no more so) - but what about anyone who works in a group on a course, or group of courses?  ie shared managment of a group of files?  Cross course shared files is more important than you say in some settings.

-Derek

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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

Yes. That is the one scenario that is not well catered for. The best solution I have heard of for that situation is to add a Folder resource, and hide it so that it is only accessible to teachers (like you might have a hidden "teachers' forum" to discuss where you can discuss how you are creating the course) and then use that as a shared file store. That you would have to access through server files. I wonder how many clicks that is.

(That is assuming that you have not installed Alfresco in your institution, or set up the file system repository so your teachers can FTP files to a folder on the server then pick them from there.)

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In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mark Hilliard -

Tim,

What i was doing is what every one of my 70 districts of established Moodle users will expect to be able to do, jump in a "folder" anywhere, upload a file, link it and replace it with an update.

It doesn't work as you expect and the result of a simple common process is the useless, confusing image I posted.

My question was rhetorical, you CAN'T and SHOULDN'T have explain this...but the new UI forces simple well established work processes into unexpected results that will confuse.

Yes...I KNOW...just train them to do it the "new way".  I tried that with a pilot group as optimistically as i could.  They just universally disliked it... I have so many better things to be doing with Moodle than trying to get people to like this when they don't.

Point I wanted to make is the "new" UI of File Picker is CREATING confusion and huge re-training work for users who were happily working with an interface that worked as numerous people here have said.

I and many others are sincerely concerned this UI if left unchanged will really hurt Moodle's reputation.  I predict I could lose half my sites if I they end up having to work with this.

Mark H.

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In reply to Mark Hilliard

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

So, it seems you want to add a file to the course page (oh dear, I sound like Microsoft's paperclip). Your procedure:

  1. jump in a "folder" anywhere,
  2. upload a file,
  3. link it (what exactly do you mean by this?)

The Moodle 2.0 procedure:

  1. Add a resource -> File
  2. Upload the file you want.

Yes, some people are used to old, less good ways of doing things. That is a poor reason to reject progress. What do you say to your colleagues and trainees who think computers and Moodle have no place in their classrooms?

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Glenys Hanson -

Hi Tim,

Can you help me along a bit further in my understanding of how the new system works?

In the disscussion on Using Moodle: Re: Workflow with Filepicker: developer question you made me see that: "Files are attached to (owned by) particular resources or activities."

This means that if a particular resource or activity is moved to another course (by save & restore, by import...) all its files move with it, doesn't it?

So if I create (or with a group of colleagues create) a Book (or Wiki, Database, Glossary...) and use the file picker to add files to it I can then move that Book to another course, even on a different server and all the files will come with it including images, mp3's, videos, PDFs, etc. If so, this is going to save me a lot of time: the time I spend redoing links on 1.9 when I move a resource or an activity to a new course. (I've never worked out why most of them continue to work but some don't.)

Unless I've missed something, this also seems simpler than the 1.9 system where I first have to upload a file to the Course Files area, and then from the Course Files into the Activity or Resource. In Moodle 2 there's just one step: directly from my hard disk (or somewhere on the Internet) into the Activity or Resource.

When I first learnt to use Moodle, I remember being irritated by having to use the Course Files as a halfway house. I've got used to it but I could get unused to it fast.

I don't really understand why so many people are so attached to the Course Files area - it's not an end in itself, is it? Even for teachers who only want somewhere to upload pdf, doc, excel, zip... files for their students to download, they can just as easily do so by uploading them directly as attachments to a Glossary. I've just tested in a hidden Glossary, abusing of my facilitator's role in the Lang Teaching course. shy But maybe I'm missing something as there's so much fuss about this lack of Course Files. mixed

Cheers,

Glenys

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Glenys Hanson -

Hi everybody,

I've now made a Resources for Language Teachers Glossary to test how this could be used as a collaborative tool for collecting various files and links. In some entries I've uploaded files from my hard disk much as I do to the course files area in 1.9. (yes, I would prefer to do it by "drag and drop" as Don suggests) I notice that doing it this way, I'm forced to be much tidier than I often am in the Course Files area. In theory I put all files in an appropriate folder, but in practice...blush In a Glossary, everything has to be in an "Article".

The attachments being alligned to the right does look a bit strange - but I'm sure there's a way of fixing that.

This particular Glossary is open to students, but the same could be done in a Glossary only visible to teachers.

I would like to try with a Book* too but that's not yet an option in Lang Teaching. It seems to me a Book would be the best way of making a bunch of files available to students.

Using the File picker to drill down to find where a file "really" is does seem long and laborious, but I don't see why a teacher or a student would normally need to do it. Yes, I'm repeating what Tim has already said.

Cheers,

Glenys

*Book is part of Moodle 2 core, isn't it?

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mary Cooch -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Hi Glenys - re  *Book is part of Moodle 2 core, isn't it?

No it isn't part of 2.0 core - I was told it was going to become core, but the only information I can find is a feature request in the tracker and the hope by Anthony Borrow that it could become core in 2.1. If anyone has more details -including the person who told me it was definitiely going to become core -I'd like to know too.

Am now going to look at your Glossary smile

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Mary Cooch

Book for Moodle 2, was: Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Glenys Hanson -

Hi Mary,

I'm happy to say you're a little out of date. Book can be downloaded now for Moodle 2 and seems to work fine:

Colin Fraser - 15 Mar, 10:32 And here it is...and it just slides into Moodle 2.0 easily. This is an excellent job Petr, congratulations.

Cheers,

Glenys

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Book for Moodle 2, was: Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mary Cooch -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Hi again Glenys - yes - I know you can download Book for Moodle 2.0 but I thought you were asking if it was going to be core? To which I still don't know the official answersmile

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: Book for Moodle 2, was: Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Glenys Hanson -

I see - I was mixing up availability for Moodle 2 and being in the core.

I also hadn't realised that lead developers (like Petr) worked on Modules that weren't core or about to be. But I should know better than to make assumptions. wink

Cheers,

Glenys

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Glenys Hanson -

Hi there,

I've been wondering if it wouldn't be simpler if the option "Server files" were removed from view in the teacher and student roles. In what circumstances do they really need it?

Cheers,

Glenys

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mary Cooch -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Well - I suppose a teacher might need it if they had say, 2 courses they taught in, French 1 and French 2, and they wanted to add a resource from French 1 into French2 - server files would be a quick way to access files they had uploaded to a different course. For a student I see less use - they aren't likely to want to re-use a file from German in their Maths course, for example, but that is what server files would allow them to do.

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Derek Chirnside -

JUst to provide a view on your question Glenys.

In a small scale Moodle, lets say there is an ethics statement that needs to be deployed in all of 10 courses.

In Moodle 1.9 it needed to be uploaded 10 times.  Or one of the cludge work arounds.

Now, just mgirate your way through the folders in System and get it

I was interested to note that Mark D called this implementation 'clumbsy' last year in his presentation (September) and said Moodle was working on it to improve it.  I'm not sure if his comments were of a previous worse version or not.

IMO, server files is very powerful.  Just not fully simplified enough.  I have added a tracker item here: http://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-27236  This should be fixable, much more easily than the other issues.

-Derek

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In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Randy Orwin -

Hi Glenys, I have used the database module for this very thing for years and it works really well. This has made a good file reppository for students as well. You can align the files wherever you want and you can make it private or open to everybody. Dealing with the database templates can be a bit of a headache but once you figure it out it is a great way to go.

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In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

"This means that if a particular resource or activity is moved to another course (by save & restore, by import...) all its files move with it, doesn't it?"

Yes, you've "got it" now.

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mark Hilliard -

Glenys,

I think some Moodle users are so attached to  old Moodle file model for a lot of reasons such as:

1. we upload a LOT of resources (100's, or much more) and the Zip file to instant Moodle directory's was powerful & fast

2. we manage servers where backups/HD space is very expensive and Moodle's new TRUST ME model doesn't cut it. A small school no problem, but take this TRUST ME model with 10, 20 or 40,000 students to upper end Moodle admin...

3. we created / deployed LOT of the more comlex HTML apps with expansive sub-directories of resources (Images, MP3's, menus, etc) that gave us tremendous flexibility to for content and using new system is like boxing with your hand's behind your back.

4. We had MANY courses where multiple instructors were involved and needed to cooperatively use/update/manage content and for this the classic file folders worked well, and new 2.0 "anonymized file dump" ( I am henceforth refusing to call it a repository ) is a real MESS.

Thats the tip of the ice berg.The issues are real.

If you read this giant thread you start to see that the new Moodle file dump has split Moodle users into two camps....

One, the single teacher lower no. of resources group - which can do quite well in new 2.0 - and two, the multi-instructor, content heavy, more complex sites which are now wondering if Moodle can ever work for them unless they stop keeping any serious content in Moodle and re-locate it in real repositories LIKE Alfresco and use links (NOT copies)back to Moodle.

You can contact some of the largest Moodle providers around, and they will say 2.0 - if you start new - and suggest waiting if you have any substantial existing content. One of the largest partners I talked to is telling existing sites to wait until December. Basically so they have time to figure out what to do with all the broken processes and new challenges.  what's sad about this is that the more successfully we taught our teachers to use power tools of existing file management, the higher the price we have to pay to re-train them.

Mark H.

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Mark Hilliard

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

1. and 3. are still possible in Moodle 2.0. Have you tried it?

4. Confuses me. I would describe the old course files system in 1.9 as an "anonymized file dump" (if we must use overly emotive terms). In Moodle 2.0 it is very clear exactly what each file is being used for.

I also don't really understand what you mean by the "TRUST ME" model in Moodle 2.0. Who is being trusted with what? All access to files, and uploading of files, in 2.0, is controlled by permissions, and there are file size limits.

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Glenys Hanson -

Hi Mark and Tim,

I admit I'm a lone teacher and I haven't tried out Moodle 2 for real, but I love challenges.

Couldn't you, Mark, set up a Moodle 2 test site and invite a bunch of us in to test what you want to do that is, as I understand it, a group of teachers using collectively multiple resources?

Cheers,

Glenys

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

What about http://demo.moodle.net/ ?

Anyway, a good practical suggestion to try to make things better.

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Glenys Hanson -

Yes, Tim, I know about the demo site, but I don't know how work with a group of teachers and/or admins there. As I've understood it, that's Mark's problem: how can a group of teachers collaboratively manage their files in Moodle 2?

Cheers,

Glenys

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Derek Chirnside -

Glenys,

I think (at this time, without using anything with the term legacy in it, and without something like Alfresco) there is no 'back end' way to share files collaboratively.

Except using Add a resource > Folder.
Anyone in a teacher role in a course can delete/add/rename/move files in the folders (in the Resource folder sense) in a course.  This is why some have suggested this type of folder as a Clayton's Course files.

But as we seem to have established, there is NO way to 'link' to a folder between sections or between courses.  Every folder instance and all the files inside needs to be deployed individually.

As above, the system does not know if you are wanting to deploy a folder or one of the files in the folder when you pick from the system.  You can only pick files.  You can't pick folders of files.

The folder picker in 1.9 no longer exists.  If the folder picker did exist, and could pick across courses, then we may be a little further along.

A coding dilemma then.  We have make a nice secure file system.  Only conceptual folders in the Add a resource > folder.  Not 'real' ones.  So the problem remains.

Thinking aloud.

I could use an entity (call it a folder) that contains a bunch of folders/files.  Eg Science Administration Information - that can appear in multiple courses.  And that any changes to the contents are reflected everywhere.  Put the Science Adminstration Infoirmation folder in all science courses.  But in fact it is actually just a container, with links to files in the database Moodle 2.0 style.
It could be used for lots of cross course content like "Help on Essay writing", "Sample Essays" etc.  This may help Mark's dilemma.

The ultimate would be for Moodle to enable linking to sections across courses. 
eg Sally's course:

Department News
Sally's class news
Department Information
Junior Science Information
Sally's class stuff
Core content Information
Extension Science
Sally's Class Stuff

But that is a bit too far.

Too much happening here in this discussion.  I've just made three posts, and not really sure if we are getting anywhere, or if anyone is listening.  I'm going to take a small break from this thread.  But i will be back.

Tomorrow I have another Moodle 2 workshop, which will be good.  For 30 teachers this time.  Whew.

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

If a document need to be available everywhere, and does not need to be secure (e.g. a typical policy document) then there is really no need to put it in the course. You could put it somewhere public, and then link to it.

For example, you could add a folder called, say, Policies, to the site front page, and then put all the policy documents you need in there. (with sub-folders by faculty, department, etc, if necessary). Then from you course you can make a link to the file in that folder (using a URL, not a File resource). Then you just have to update that file in one place.

Alternatively, instead of using the front page, you could make a course that is open to guests, e.g. Chemistry information, and you can put all sorts of resources in there, and again link to them from the courses that need them. This is not just a work-around to the files issue. This might actually be a better way of doing things. That would be a space where you could consider adding some interactive activities. For example a Chemistry helpdesk forum, or a Chemistry student's social forum, or a student-contributed Chemistry FAQ glossary.

The only down-side to this is the when the student clicks on the 'Chemistry health-and-safety rule' document in their course, they get taken out of the course they are studying, and into the Chemistry information course, so they can't use the breadcrumbs to get back. But, there must be creative solutions to that.

Actually, instead of making it a course open to guests, you could make it a meta-course of all the other chemistry courses. Then, wouldn't the Child courses block give you a way back.

And anyway, if you are just linking to a .doc file, that downloads, then there is no back problem.

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In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Don Hinkelman -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers

In our case, and maybe a lot of cases where teachers work collaboratively, we do not know which files will be commonly needed. They evolve with new versions and useful ones emerge as we browse through them. Teachers are constantly creating activities/resources that have multimedia files attached. The 25 teachers in our department all want to see those files (with multiple image/audio/vidoeitattachments) as they develop. And no activity/file is ever finished, each year they get changed by individuals or groups.

We need to have files/activities saved automatically to a common area or a common folder(s) for sharing.  It should not be hidden in some course.  Some files, however, image/audio/video attachments in activities should be invisible, because they are rarely edited.  Yet the activities should be browsable.

I have not used 2.0, just seen demos and read forums about it.  So I hope this case is easy to manage in the new file system. In a few months, I have to transfer our extensive Site files and System quiz categories from 1.9 to 2.0, so I am looking for a good strategy to do that.

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In reply to Mark Hilliard

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Derek Chirnside -

Mark, can you give me some more of a scenario on your #4

4. We had MANY courses where multiple instructors were involved and needed to cooperatively use/update/manage content and for this the classic file folders worked well, and new 2.0 "anonymized file dump" ( I am henceforth refusing to call it a repository ) is a real MESS.

Do you mean Add a resource > Directory? (in 1.9)

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In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Rosario Carcò -

I did not have time to test this:

>>
This means that if a particular resource or activity is moved to another course (by save & restore, by import...) all its files move with it, doesn't it?
>>

But I wonder if you are not much faster to duplicate the whole course, restoring it from a course backup file to a new course, and then kicking out everything you do not need in this course.

Rosario

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In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Colin Matheson -

Tim,

I don't think that you should dismiss the problems with the File Picker as being equivalent to a general fear of technology. If a user says, I would like to be able to work this way, then shouldn't software be created that allows them to work the way they want instead of software telling users, "work this way, it is better"?

I don't think that the argument can really be made that the new file system was driven by user interface needs of course designers. It was driven by the need to improve file management for backups, file management of files used in other ways besides "Add a resource" (quiz questions, forum posts, etc.), and to allow Moodle to talk to other file systems in a really cool and powerful way.

So you can see how progress in one area, ie more robust file management, does not neccesarily mean progress in another area, ie course designer work flow. In fact it could result in a degradation of another area. That is the argument being made by several people who are experienced Moodlers and who work with training inexperienced Moodlers.

A counter to that claim is that it the file system is just different, not worse, and the training issues are just growing pains. I would disagree with that. You seem to be making an even larger argument that the new file picker is a better way for teachers to create and manage courses. I would disagree with that.

Yes a teacher can upload a single file at a time in Moodle 1.x and Moodle 2.x. However there are usability issues in 2.x

  • I have many multiple teacher courses. Why should a special system and workflow be required for this use case? These teachers can not use the relatively simple Add a resource->File->Type in Name->Type in Description->Click Add->In the new window click Browse->Choose File->Click Upload
  • Reuploading a file with the same name does not allow course designers to overwrite the original file.
  • When I try to edit a file resource in Moodle 2 it is not obvious that I have to click on the existing file in order to be given the option to delete it.
  • Why can you upload multiple files to a Add a Resource->File and yet only one is downloaded?
  • Why don't we have multiple file upload yet?
  • I don't see legacy course files as helpful because it requires a teacher to use a different work flow than the add a resource->File->find a file on their computer.
  • Why can't Moodle's file structure mimic that of a teacher's course folder like it did in 1.x? Perhaps a filter that shows a list of all files used in course.

Well I was being lazy about creating the tracker issues, but I will do my best to get involved on the tracker side of things. Thanks for all your work on Moodle, and I hope that we can find some way to maintain the great new features of Moodle 2.x and create Moodle file managment that works for computer novices.

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In reply to Colin Matheson

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mark Hilliard -

Colin,

Great post!  Your post reminded me of a point I forgot to make in other places...

Over the past 5-6 years I trained Moodle teachers, we always struggled with elementary teacher groups. NOT because they didn't get the technology, most were VERY tech savvy, but BECAUSE they taught essentially 10-12 areas (math, science, language, art, etc etc) at the SAME time to SAME group of kids AND often they would want/need to share work with other grade levels.

A creative solution we came up with together was to put GROUPS of teachers 5-7 in Moodle course areas and let them cooperatively maintain large number of course content files.

I have a growing fear from multi-teacher course issue discussions, that this is going to be MUCH harder/more complex in 2.0 Moodle.

I am exploring it more now.

Has anyone else explored this in detail and can report the issues?

maybe we should start a discussion JUST for Multi-teacher courses. this thread is almost too big, but it certainly represents the range of responses to 2.0.   thanks again for articulate post.

Mark Hilliard

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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Hi Derek

You (and Moodle) are fully in the trend, see:

"The Obama administration is funding so-called "shadow" internet and mobile phone networks, which allow activists to operate independently of government controls.

The "shadow" networks are portable kits that fit in suitcases, which could maintain ad-hoc computer networks useful to activists in places where internet is either inaccessible or being monitored."

http://oti.newamerica.net/node/52905
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In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Mark Hilliard -

glynys,

You make a very good point. There is a lot of good info here that has been learned by hard experience and good questions that need to be asked ASAP. It really should be shared broadly. like many good Moodle talks in these forums you don't know how a casual chat topic will develop into a really useful discussion due to the exeriences of members.

I agree with you that the File Picker may be the "achilles heel" of Moodle 2.x

I'll see if I can find a good spot. For my money the file picker 2.x deserves it's own spot, it's that crucial!!

If I find a spot does anyone have a problem with me copying over some parts of this forum?  Maybe the Moodle.org folks can copy/move parts for us.

Mark Hilliard

Minneapolis, MN

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In reply to Mark Hilliard

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Derek Chirnside -

Mike, final post for the day.

There is a course convertor here: http://www.moodleinschools.org.nz/forum/topics/4730

Good reports so far.

-Derek

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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Tim Williams -
Picture of Plugin developers
I've just come across this thread, i've not had time to review the whole discussion yet, but i'm not personally very happy with the file picker either. I've been working on and off over the past year on a replacement for it which is based on the old Moodle 1.9 file manager. It still needs a lot of work before it can act as a full replacement for the file picker and I haven't yet submitted it to the third party plugins database, although I probably will do so soon.

However, you will find my "Repository File Manager" and "Course Files Area" plugins on http://www.autotrain.org/misc/source/moodle2/. Between them they 'put back' into Moodle 2.x as closely as possible the Moodle 1.9 style of file management and storage, including the numbered course files directories inside moodle-data. The Repo file manager also has some basic support for browsing other internal repository types and there is an underlying framework which will allow it to 'manage' any repository type for which a suitable PHP class exists to provide the necessary functions.

There are some patches which allow the repo file manager to add it's own button next to the file picker button wherever it appears. I am experimenting with ways to patch the files API so that 'internal' files can be read from parts of the file system which are outside of the Moodle 2.x file store, but this isn't yet ready for release and may never be if i'm not convinced the techniques i'm using are reliable.
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In reply to Tim Williams

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Derek Chirnside -

Tim, I saw this a while back and meant to post.

This sounds like a fork.  Changes to the level that really it wil become a huge overhead.

Have you seen Sam's video from the English Moodle Moot?  It is on how to work with MoodleHQ to get things into Moodle.  He uses an interesting approach.

I think (IMHO) you are much better to look at some small issue (like Tim's POC http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=174388)

Or one click upload.  http://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-19075

Better user level management of the file system repository. http://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-27244 You may find you ca build on this more easily than other options.  (Shameless plug: please vote - even though after 60 days it is stll assigned to Nobody)

I aware that your statement "It still needs a lot of work before it can act as a full replacement for the file picker" hides even more work than you think.

My final point: dong what you plan will for sure break the backup/restore/import options.

In the multitude of posts there is the bones of a clear spec, and I do not think there is a hope that MoodleHQ will move without one.   It would include reducing the number of clicks, a linking option etc.

Good luck.

-Derek

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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Tim Williams -
Picture of Plugin developers
I was in the audience for Sam's presentation, it was informative but i'm not sure it would help me, since HQ are opposed to the underlying principle of what I want, that didn't seem to me to be the case for Sam.

The files API patches I have (which aren't released and may never be if I decide they are of little use) are actually fairly small, probably 10-20 lines in total, all they do is to cause the Moodle files API to look for internal files that came from the course files area in the numbered directories instead of the new moodle file store. They do effectively constitute a fork since the underlying behaviour of the system would change, but I don't think they would be difficult to maintain. However, the plugins I have written do not and never will need these patches to function.

Unfortunately the tracker issues you link to do not address my core problem, I need a proper files manager with file system directories underneath, fully manageable from Moodle. I did consider trying to use the file system repo, but I judged that it would be easier to port the Moodle 1.9.x file manager code to 2.x so that I could have exactly what I wanted. The design of my Repository file manager allows for the implementation of the functionality described in MDL-27244 should it be needed, but this isn't a priority for me since I don't need this capability for any of our customers right now.

The work the repo file manager needs to replace the file picker is significant, but I wouldn't regard any of it as difficult, it's basically a question of replicating the remaining unimplemented functions in the file picker so that all Moodle repository types can be browsed and selected from. Much of this work may be left to others to add if they need it, since my reason for writing this block was to provide a suitable file manager and storage area for our AutoView Lecture Capture system and this aim has been achieved.

Backup/Restore shouldn't be a big deal on an un-patched system. Files which are added as internal resources are no different to any other files which have been copied into a Moodle course from an outside source, and will be handled as such by the Moodle backup system. For external resources, the Moodle 2.x backup system already contains code which can re-write URL's when backups are restored, so all you have to do is import the course backup and a zip of the relevant course files area. I haven't tested this yet, but I don't anticipate a serious problem, it's just a question of getting the URL re-write rule right. I haven't yet investigated what happens with my patches in place, it might cause a major problem, it might not.

Thank you for your interest!
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In reply to Tim Williams

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

I just wonder whether you are taking the best approach.

Let me check my understanding. I think you are trying to solve the problem "Let users upload files into Moodle using (S)FTP, rather than the web interface."

The files system repository was only every a quick and dirty hack to allow that.

The alternative is to implement WebDAV - which all modern operating systems can talk to. Users can have read/write access to all the files in Moodle that they are allowed to access through Windows explorer (or the equivalent on other platforms.)

This was implemented in 1.9. See http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=89123 and http://docs.moodle.org/19/en/WebDAV_Setup.

With the WedDAV protocol, you can present the files in Moodle using whatever logical directory structure you like. (If I recall correctly, in 1.9 it replaced the meaningless courseid folder names with the actual course name, and organised then inside folders to represent the course category structure.)

So, I think that the natural 'logical directory structure' for Moodle 2.0 is to present the user with 'Server files' and 'My private files' as top level folders.

Read only access to those, as they appear in the filepicker view, is no issue.

The tricky bit will be to decide where write access should be allowed. For example, you don't want students editing their assignment submissions at any time.

Perhaps the simplest solution to start with within the webdav code would be an array fileareaname => capability to check before allowing write-access.

Implementing this was something that was talked about between 1.9 to 2.0, but there was never time to do it.

If someone does a good implementation of WebDAV for 2.x, I think there is a good chance that it would get added to Moodle core. It would certainly prove a popular plug-in. (I expect it could be implemented as a local plugin: local/webdav, probably without any core code changes.)

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In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers

+100 on WebDAV. Tim has described it well.

The main thing allowing write access would be Private Files, that's easy to manage as it's all one user and you have full privs.

Secondly would be "folder" and "file" resources, and possibly legacy course file areas.

More could be added later.

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In reply to Tim Williams

Re: Moodle 2.x new "file" management Tools

by Rosario Carcò -

From a system admins point of view, returning to a course-directory on the server's file system would be a great benefit for backup & restore of single course files. See my post here:

http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=174702#p788253

And if you wrote that code, why should it not be merged into Moodle 2 core? so as to make happy everyone?

Rosario

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