Tough to copmare and prove superiority of Moodle with this software please help kindly.

Tough to copmare and prove superiority of Moodle with this software please help kindly.

by yuki yuki -
Number of replies: 24

I am facing problem to bias the decision makers to introduce Moodle.

The fact is that the company has already an e-learning SaaS based program name

“Internet Navigware” made by a Japanese company fujitsu. Please check in here:

http://jp.fujitsu.com/solutions/elearning

We are also investing other e-elarning and Moodle is top.

I have to prove the superiority of Moodle (in terms of features and functionalities or any others could be) in compare with this SaaS based e-learning software fujitsu's "Internet Navigware"?

Can somebody kindly help me in this issue especially from Japanese friends and all others off course. Please please.

Appreciate if I get a quick response from you.

Average of ratings: -
In reply to yuki yuki

Re: Tough to copmare and prove superiority of Moodle with this software please help kindly.

by yuki yuki -
this is my last hope to get help regarding this from you kindly reply if you know something.
In reply to yuki yuki

Re: Tough to copmare and prove superiority of Moodle with this software please help kindly.

by Amir Elion -
Yuki
It is hard to answer your question without knowing what you really need to prove.
I find moodle is a great platfrom, but it really depends on what are the needs at your organization.
Some of the major advantages with moodle as I see it are:
  • Flexible - both in design, content type, roles, usage, etc.
  • Lots of possible resource and activity types in core, which satisfy most needs with many 3rd party additions if you need.
  • Free and open source, and yet great support by the community and a bright and stable looking future.
  • Geared towards paticipative learning (e.g. its constructivist roots and application).
Amir
In reply to Amir Elion

Re: Tough to copmare and prove superiority of Moodle with this software please help kindly.

by yuki yuki -

Seems cloud based saas model is getting popular these days. which is also cheap. I know moodle is free.

That software giving those services. I have to prove moodle is better in terms of features/functionalities in compare with fujitsus navigware e-learnign software. can you give me a comparison clue?

In reply to Amir Elion

Re: Tough to copmare and prove superiority of Moodle with this software please help kindly.

by Ray Hoskins -
Yuki,

The incredible user base of Moodle, including states, universities, corporations, thousands of installations is proof of its stability and security. I would use that as an argument.

Then, I think you need to do a feature by feature breakdown of Moodle versus the other product. The SAAS model is good in a lot of instances, and I can't get from your questions why you believe it is the best strategy for your company.

There are breakdowns comparing Moodle to Blackboard and other LMS on the web, so you might want to do that with this.

If you are sure Moodle is your best option, then you need to take that stance and back it up, not just with the questions you are asking, but with how it meets your needs better than competitors.
In reply to Ray Hoskins

Re: Tough to copmare and prove superiority of Moodle with this software please help kindly.

by yuki yuki -
thanks. if somebody ask you why will i use free software "moodle" rather than cloud based saas model elearning system since moodle could require a person to maintainance/administration and need to pay salary but cloud based case it wont cost more, what will your answer?
In reply to yuki yuki

Re: Tough to copmare and prove superiority of Moodle with this software please help kindly.

by Glenys Hanson -
Hi Yuki,

After some searching around to see what the "saas model elearning system" is I gather it's something quite different from Moodle. As far as I could see they are offering ready-made online courses like this one: online PMP (Project Management Professional) courses (I couldn't find any other subjects). If this particular subject is what your company wants it could be right for them. If they need to train their personnel in a different subject they'd have to buy another course.

Moodle itself does not contain the content of any particular subject, it provides the tools for creating a course: forums, wikis, quiz generators, student tracking, etc. There are ready-made Moodle courses that can be bought too (and some free ones). However, Moodle is generally used as a complement to already existing face to face courses in universities, school and companies to provide added value and flexibility. The actual creation of Moodle courses can be done either in-house or outsourced.

It seems to me that the choice your company is facing is the same dilemma as with face-to-face training. If they have just a few people to train in a standard procedure and there's school offering a course in this down the road, then it's easier and cheaper to send them there. If, on the other hand, they have a lot of employees to train in non standard procedures, it's more efficient to provide training in-house.

Hope this helps,
Glenys



In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Tough to copmare and prove superiority of Moodle with this software please help kindly.

by sachita Iyer -

There are couple of application which can yield a good LMS which is scrom complaint, some of them are commerical version with plud and play and some which is hard play but yield a good result.

Some of the top application used as LMS

Adobe elearning suite

Articulate

Dreamweaver (my personal recommenation)

and others

Please check this one where Online courses are offered and which is built upon dreamweaver.

Kindly drop in your suggestions.

In reply to sachita Iyer

Re: Tough to copmare and prove superiority of Moodle with this software please help kindly.

by Colin Fraser -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Testers

Dreamweaver hahahahahaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!

As a RAD tool (love the jargon) Dreamweaver is Bullwinkle's delight - "Look, Rocky - nothin' up my sleeve.." But I find it so constricting...

If you have time, NotePad ++ (my personal recommendation)

In reply to Colin Fraser

Re: Tough to copmare and prove superiority of Moodle with this software please help kindly.

by Marcus Green -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers

Steady on Colin, not everyone has seen Rocky and Bullwinkle, so the reference may not be caught.

Moodle is a server side application rather than a developer tool and so cannot be reasonably compared with the Adobe E-Learning suite or Dreamweaver.

It makes more sense to compare it with things like

Atutor, Claroline/Dukeos/instructure Canvas or from the commercial world there is Blackboard.

If I ever use the spolling SCROM Complaint it will probably be a Freudien slip.

 

 

In reply to Marcus Green

Re: Tough to copmare and prove superiority of Moodle with this software please help kindly.

by Colin Fraser -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Testers

Oh Marcus, I have an almost religious faith in the power of endless reruns to break across generational and cultural barriers. As long as we are using 2-D TV Rocky and Bullwinkle will make a programming list somewhere, becoming familiar to a new generation, I am sure..smile

I have used Blackboard, WebCT and Sakai, the others I don't know, and I can say that Moodle's UI needs some development work, but we have far fewer outages with Moodle than we have with Blackboard. One in the last two years because some construction work cut the power cable to our host's servers - and I have no idea of the number of Blackboard outages, a lot more than one, or the causes, not cut cables. I can update my Moodle far more easily than Blackboard, add modules easily with little expense and know that I have tested then as best I can before adding them to my production site, I can suit myself with the timing of these things. I cannot with Blackboard. As far as Sakai is concerned, I have not used that for a while now, and I cannot recall being able to do too much with that, but in fairness I did not get into it all that far, changed jobs - again. So Moodle is the better option for those reasons, for me, perhaps not for someone else but it is for me.

Given the appalling economic imperatives of modern financial systems, and the fact that we are now seriously beginning to struggle with the rigidity of the Western price model, Moodle becomes the only real option. I suspect anything else is going to fall further behind or become so bloated that it will no longer be useful. (I do not know D2L, but I understand that is using the same sort of modelling that Blackboard is using, so it too will fall into this last category, I expect.)    

As for development tools Sachita refers to, Articulate is pretty good, Adobe's e-Learning Suite I do not know - but I imagine it bring's Adobe's usual attention to detail and attempt at excellence so it will mostly do what it claims it can do, even if as awkward to use as Dreamweaver, but they are both very expensive so they better be good. I do not use these tools because I cannot pay for them, (well OK, I do not want to pay for them..thoughtful ), but mine is not a profit making venture anyway, so who cares. As long as Reload Editor does what I want it to and Notepad ++  can edit HTML and PHP pages that others create, I am happy.    

In reply to yuki yuki

Re: Tough to copmare and prove superiority of Moodle with this software please help kindly.

by Howard Miller -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
As soon as somebody mentiones "cloud based" I get very depressed. It's more marketing hype than anything else. You still need *real* storage space to store stuff and you still need someone to maintain the thing. Granted there may be economies of scale but it's not some magic wand.

I would forget about all the hype and try to look at "what do you need" vs. "what does it do" vs. "what does it cost" for each product.

I always recommend that people actually try Moodle. No licenses remember. So download it, put it on some old server and run a couple of courses on it. See if you like it!
In reply to yuki yuki

Re: Tough to copmare and prove superiority of Moodle with this software please help kindly.

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
The title says everything: "Tough to compare and prove superiority of Moodle with this software".

You are right!
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Tough to copmare and prove superiority of Moodle with this software please help kindly.

by Colin Fraser -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Testers
Major differences:
1. YOU control Moodle, every aspect of it. Access, content, service, everything.
2. YOU do NOT control anything in a cloud.

Clouds sound great, but the bottom line is that you are totally dependent upon someone else's ability to protect YOUR interests, YOUR materials, YOUR rights and privileges, YOUR privacy.

Having said that, Glenys makes an interesting point, are you buying a common service or producing your own training regime? If all you need is a common service, then Moodle will be of little or no value to you. If your company wants to build its own in-house training and development regime and have complete control over it, then moodle is definitely the best available tool.

EDIT: Just having a look at the Fujitsu site Yuki put up, it looks awfully familiar.. and I cannot read a word of Japanese...
In reply to Colin Fraser

Re: Tough to copmare and prove superiority of Moodle with this software please help kindly.

by yuki yuki -

Thanks.

>bottom line is that you are totally dependent upon someone else's ability to protect YOUR interests, YOUR materials, YOUR rights and privileges, YOUR privacy.

1. Dont you think in Open source also it is true? (imagine the scenario - when there nobody knows about Moodle.)

>are you buying a common service or producing your own training regime?

That Fujitsu's system allowed us to upload our own contents and edit as well. can customoize it.

>If your company wants to build its own in-house training and development regime and have complete control over it, then moodle is definitely the best available tool.

Dont you think own tools can increase the cost as well? Here I would like to raise below questions...

Dont you think cloud based SaaS model is the killer model/application for the Open source (like Drupal, Moodle etc.). If not then can you give the reasosns? Is there any cost comparison of both model (considering open source also required man power to maintain the applications).

Thanks many for your supports.


In reply to yuki yuki

Re: Tough to copmare and prove superiority of Moodle with this software please help kindly.

by Colin Fraser -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Testers
Eventually, it is all about control. If you put Moodle onto your own server, only those you know can access its materials. A cloud, for me, represents too much of a risk to attract unwanted attention. It is the nature of a cloud that attracts attention that threatens your control.

Dont you think cloud based SaaS model is the killer model/application for the Open source

No I don't and the reasons are obvious. Think about this, our dependence on the Internet increases every year. The ease with which we can access it improves with every new technical leap. The only problem is that as this dependence grows, so does our vulnerability to technical breakdowns, to viruses, to human error and the impact of outages increases exponentially as we deliver more and more of our systems to the Internet. There is nothing wrong with the Internet, just the risky ways we are starting to use it.

We should be looking at ways to reduce those risks, not just rely upon increasing technically complex responses to those risks. The concept of the cloud will work well, until someone smart enough to publicly damage it comes along. It is not the SaaS model that is at risk, it is the technology that is so complex that is more fragile and has greater impact that is the problem. The only way you can get around that is to devise your own systems that are not so dependent on external structures.

Simply put - what do we do if we cannot use the Internet? Nothing if you are using a cloud. If you are using the company Intranet, then you can continue without any interruption.

As far as costs are concerned, you have an employee who's job it is to do something, whatever this is. You pay him a wage. That person can also do something else, you still pay him the same wage, but his job is different. What also happens is that the emphasis on the something he was doing declines, and either someone else takes up the overlap, or it is allowed to drag until it is dropped altogether, in which case, the employee is engaged in doing the something else. The employment costs do not change, even though the job does.

There is always going to be hardware costs, and reliance upon proprietal software increases costs as well as fragility and risks generated by that fragility. What you need to decide is if you want to take the risks and bear those costs or take the other risk and bear those costs. Does not matter what you do, it is going to cost - just work out which cost is more beneficial to the long term interests of the company and I do not mean in a year, I mean decades.

What is the end result your company is looking for? Can Moodle meet that goal? What will it cost?Is there another way of doing the same thing, but at less cost? What are the risks? How can we lessen the risks? Does using Moodle lessen those risks or increase them?
In reply to yuki yuki

Re: Tough to copmare and prove superiority of Moodle with this software please help kindly.

by James Scully -
Hi,

Some thoughts.

If you want someone else to host and maintain your Moodle for you (whether in "the cloud" or merely at the company's business premises),you can use a Moodle partner. That way, no-one in your institution need have to learn the system/hardware administration skills.

I also suspect the pricing for such support will be much, much lower than Fujitsu's. At over USD3 (290 yen) per seat per month (plus an initial 2,900+ USD) the cost will soon rack up. For our institution this would be at least 5 times as much as we pay our partner plus our 1 dedicated moodle admin person.

Also there are other costs such as "teaching kits" if you add your own materials (see Navigware website). And possible limitations of simultaneous access (10% of registered users).

With SaaS, your teachers, who want to use the available tools, not just copy materials onto the system, will have to learn how to use those tools. Looking at it from the outside, I doubt they are as easy to use/learn as Moodle's, or as well supported by the user community. Nor, I suspect are there course materials freely shared as there are for Moodle. These can cut development times substantially.

If you use a lot of multimedia (esp. full screen video) there are major bandwidth advantages to hosting these in your own institution rather than "in the cloud".

I doubt the SaaS model even wounds, let alone kills! (smile)

In reply to James Scully

Re: Tough to copmare and prove superiority of Moodle with this software please help kindly.

by Colin Fraser -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Testers
And yet another thought... "the cloud" is a myth. It is just another reference to the concept of "the black box" I learned about in computer school. The idea is that a function performs its functionality, but we do not care how it does it, for example, I have a function that calculates a tax. I send it an amount and it returns to me the value of the tax. I do not care that it has had to go through 30 odd steps taking the amount and reducing it by a set amount, doubling the amount, dividing it by an exponential number and so on, to achieve an accurate assessment of that tax, just as long as it is right.

A cloud can actually be any server you nominate as a "cloud server". It stores, it slices, it dices, but wait, that is not all, it is all hidden and you do not get to see anything you put into it until you want it again. The cloud will then hose it down, shake it off, dry blow it and wrap it into a fancy blanket for you to see. In the meantime, it is going to cost you, whether you use it or not, it is costing you.

The really silly part of this is that you can create your own cloud on your own servers. You do not have to buy a part of someone else's.

It is all about control. Do it yourself, you have full control. Use a cloud, you actually have very little control. Use SaaS, you have no control. For Moodle, there is no competition - two different products used for two different reasons.

It all boils down to money. How much do they want to spend on supporting an external company, when they could spend the same, or less if they are clever, entirely within their own company, reap the full benefit of it and generate more employment opportunity internally.
In reply to Colin Fraser

Stupid buzz-words

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
It pains me to say this, but I have reached the conclusion that there is actually a purpose to technically meaningless buzz-words like ajax, web 2.0, cloud, nosql, ...

As I say, technically they are all garbage. Ajax just means using features that JavaScript provided all along to enhance web pages. Cloud mean web sites like the ones Google provided long before the word cloud was misappropriated to describe them, and so on.

The point is, that for humans to talk about something, they need to have a name for it. The word Ajax was made up at a time when browsers were getting better at JavaScript - the W3C DOM standards were being implemented, and XMLHttpRequest was supported in a usable subset of browser, and some innovative site had already shown what was possible. Having the work Ajax hyped as "the latest and greatest new thing" lead to a lot of discussion about what could be done in technical blogs and magazines, and as a result of this discourse, we got a new breed of user-interface idioms, and new JavaScript libraries, and so on.

Of course, it is the discourse between practitioners that is valuable, not the buzz-word, but having a word to use, however cringe-making and technically meaningless, seems to be required to stimulate the discourse.
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Stupid buzz-words

by Howard Miller -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
I dunno.... my bitter experience is that someone saying "we'll be hosting this in the cloud" (or similar) is just another way of saying "I haven't the slightest idea what I'm talking about but I'm trying to sound good".

Jargon is ok-ish but only when we are all talking about the same thing. I've met people who genuinely thing that "Web 2.0" means fancy graphics. My other favourite is Video "streaming" - nobody knows what it is but they all think they need it (but only when they don't).
In reply to Howard Miller

Re: Stupid buzz-words

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
Yes, that is the down-side of these stupid buzz-words. They get abused much more than they get used to drive meaningful discourse. My conclusion is still that they are necessary to drive the discourse, and you just have to put up with, and ignore, all the crap.
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Stupid buzz-words

by Peter Seaman -
The really pernicious thing is how buzz-words are often requirements to be accepted to present at professional conferences. Seems like every conference has to have at least 2-3 sessions on "Web 2.0," whether or not they convey anything useful for educating students. smile

Peter
In reply to Peter Seaman

Re: Stupid buzz-words

by Colin Fraser -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Testers
Oh my... the cynicism is coming out here, "meaningless buzz words" teacher conferences at which nothing useful for educating is accomplished... OK.... I understand that... Here is something I wrote in 1995-6 for an introductory training program aimed at middle management and semi-professionals in companies changing over to Windows 95.

=================
Introducing Computing:

The initial idea of Starting Point for Windows95 was as a collection of handy computing terminology. Like in any specialist industry, jargon plays a very large role in the understanding of computing. People who have been involved in computing develop terminology to describe what it is that they are doing, often to the disgust of people around them who are not involved in computing.

The main source of that jargon has been the computer scientists and engineers who started the trend in the early days of computing, when computers were right up there with the eternal mysteries of life. Computer scientists were living in so rarefied an atmosphere that they could barely be understood by mere mortals. Coupled with the general academic love for obscuring even the most simple ideas behind the most complex of jargons, it was inevitable that a computer oriented sub-set of the English language would develop.

To make matters worse, those dour faced professionals were joined by a new generation of technocrat, the computer nerds. This new group wanted to keep this techno-world to themselves, and they grew new words to describe events in computing to wear, like badges of membership. If someone didn’t understand the jargon, then they certainly “were not one of us”. To compound this worsening situation a new phenomenon occurred, Star Trek.

Fans of any of the incarnations of Star Trek, listen in rapt silence to the engineers discuss technical matters with the Captain. Actors use a made up jargon that relates to specific elements of whatever star ship they happen to be on. It doesn’t matter that it is complete nonsense, avid fans have been contributing to the consistency of that jargon for so long that it hangs together, it sounds reasonable and realistic. Many of those fans, and contributors, are also computer nerds and they love the sort of nonsense that emanates from any Trek engineering officer. They have, unfortunately, transferred that love of nonsense to their computing world, solidifying the badge of “us”.

The problem is that academics justify the assassination of the language by arguing that “the terminology is specific and descriptive”. Specific to what? Descriptive of what? and the key question, Who can understand it? Why, only the members of Club Silicon, in short, them who are “us”.

There are two points here, firstly, the jargon is really a collection of different ideas of what is specific and descriptive, and second, it is really easy to understand, if someone writes a book that de-mystifies the jargon. Unfortunately this is not that book, that one got lost in the need to explain Windows95 in a more simple way. It is hoped that this booklet does that.

=================

Some things just do not change..smile



Average of ratings: Useful (1)