New theme for new site - comments appreciated!

New theme for new site - comments appreciated!

by Ian Usher -
Number of replies: 18

Hello...

This is a 'Friday afternoon' type of posting. I've finally launched our new Moodle site with a customised theme... but probably not one which I'll be sharing since it's too specific to us!

It uses a little bit of CSS-P and some graphics done by our design team which, due to the layout limitations of Moodle, couldn't quite come across in all their glory.

shy I'd really appreciate any constructive comments you might have (especially the "Have you considered doing x, y or z in order to improve it?"

If  you could take the time to have a look, I'd appreciate it!

Thanks a lot and have a good weekend!

Ian. smile

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In reply to Ian Usher

Re: New theme for new site - comments appreciated!

by David Scotson -
I've not had a good look at it yet but I'm curious about what your design team were trying to achieve but couldn't. Do you have a photoshop comp, or design mockup for their original concept?


Constructive comment: I don't think the background colour of the breadcrumbtrail, exactly matches the green of the 'hillside' above it. It's almost impercetible on my Mac but under Linux it's more obvious.

Artistic comment: If I was going to do a 'wobbly' or 'swooshy' design, as you have for the header, then I wouldn't confine it into the predetermined boxes of the underlying layout. If you continued the same green colour down through the breadcrumb trail and into the main background section then you would hide some of the boxiness that naturally occurs in many web designs and also make it less Moodle-ly which I think was one of your aims.
In reply to David Scotson

Re: New theme for new site - comments appreciated!

by David Scotson -

Is it intentional that the font is mostly left to the user's default choice? The stylesheet specifies Trebuchet for certain places but that doesn't appear for me on Mac or Linux.

It might be because there is an extra comma at the end of the sixth line: body, p, td, th, li, {

I'd recommend validating your CSS even when the HTML is out of your control and doesn't validate, as it can catch some weird effects. In this case you'd need to move the mozilla extension stuff to a different .css file to get a clean report.

You might also want to add ul, ol, dl, dt and dd to that font list for completeness (mainly for the benefit of Nestcape 4 users).

And in case anyone else has missed one of the nicer touches of the design, try resizing your browser window and watch the logo in the top-right corner. I love that effect, subtle but brilliant, especially as the background has to be designed around IE's lack of PNG support.

In reply to David Scotson

Re: New theme for new site - comments appreciated!

by Ian Usher -

Thanks David! (and thanks for your presentation at Oxford btw).

Yup, I know the green's not quite there (also noticeable on XP), but it's very much in 'beta' at the mo'. It will come together in a coherent rounded thing of beauty one day... maybe.

I'm also reluctant about spending absoutely ages trying to 'tweak' the layout, CSS, etc. in order to get round some of Moodle's current issues. At the same time I wonder if waiting for 1.4.whatever will present a whole load of other issues which will require a fresh set of tweaks.

Once people start using the site, then I think my time would be justified in tweaking it. Until then...

I agree, I want decent PNG support and I'd like it now. Most of the people who will make decisions about (although not use) this will be using IE5 on Windows 2000 on a corporate network, so unfortunately that's my starting point. Using font-size keywords is something I always do through gritted teeth, since the same page on Firefox etc. looks like microfiche compared to a readable version done in IE's rough & ready rendering. So far I'm not going down the A List Apart solution for that - yet.

In reply to Ian Usher

Re: New theme for new site - comments appreciated!

by David Scotson -

Font sizing is a nightmare, and none of the hacks and workarounds are ideal.

One thing I would suggest though to help is to ditch the Trebuchet font. It looks like you've used the standard Moodle selection of:

"Trebuchet MS", Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;

I would recommend:

"Lucida Grande", Verdana, "Bitstream Vera Sans", Geneva, Lucida, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;

This means most users (Windows/IE) will see Verdana, which is better-looking (ihmo) and more legible on screen than Trebuchet, especially at smaller sizes and on systems without anti-aliasing.

The other options ensure that Mac and Linux users get beautiful, readable fonts that are suited to their platforms too.

Martin, if you're reading this, do you think we could add this list of fonts to the standard themes? (optionally with Trebuchet MS in there somewhere too).

In reply to David Scotson

Re: New theme for new site - comments appreciated!

by Ian Usher -

...again, as with so many of these things it's a poltical (with a small 'p') decision, in order to show people who will look and comment but won't use the site that it's just plain different. The corporate standard for everything here is Arial - yes, really - or Verdana (with Gill Sans thrown in if you're living waaaaay out on the edge), but with no rationale for this. If you Google for my County Council's home page you'll see the sort of environment I'm working in, hence (for moment) different is good!

I considered Tahoma over Trebuchet - again for the reason that the People Who Matter are running Windows PCs with it on and it's not Arial or Verdana - but (to use my own criticism on myself) it's because it's different rather than because it's better! thoughtful

This is a pilot phase for this term, when everything will be re-evaluated at t'other end. Thanks for what you've said, I'll throw the Linux & Mac ones in there...

Ian.

ps - the 'green issue' is (I think) fixed...

In reply to David Scotson

Re: New theme for new site - comments appreciated!

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
I love Verdana for documents but on screen it's just too fat.

I've also tried Lucida Grande and it looks OK, but it doesn't seem to be as consistent as Trebuchet, which looks very clear to me on all my operating systems.
In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: New theme for new site - comments appreciated!

by David Scotson -

The reasoning behind them is:

  • Lucida Grande for those on Mac OS X (it's the system font and so is uber-tweaked for on-screen display using the Macs display layer technology)

  • Verdana for Windows users, especially those on pre-2000 systems without anti-aliasing as it, like Trebuchet, is designed expressly for that purpose, though I think more successfully and less showily. Ironically, that is the reason behind its 'fatness'. read more at MSFT

  • Bitstream Vera Sans for those on more modern Linux desktops who have not installed (or can't install) the MSFT fonts.

  • Geneva to catch any Mac OS 9 users, like Verdana this font is specifically designed for non-anti-aliased display (you can see it in your iPod if you've got one)

  • Lucida is a fairly common and somewhat screen legible font on older Unix and Linux machines

  • Arial and Helvetica, just in case, to catch any stragglers.

I got the inspiration from real word style.

Everything after the first two is basically disaster-planning to ensure the site remains good-looking or at least somewhat legible on various kooky set-ups. The first two are my personal opinions and Verdana is probably interchangeable here with Trebuchet.

I always add Lucida Grande first as I think it's a bit of a shame to have Mac OS X users reading using a font expressly designed to overcome a technical shortcoming that their system doesn't suffer from. Actually, thinking about it now, I'd probably promote Vera Sans above Verdana/Trebuchet for similar reasons if legibility was more important than consistency.

In reply to David Scotson

Re: New theme for new site - comments appreciated!

by Jeffery Watkins -

Does the calendar kick out slightly due to the fonts you are using?

Jeff

In reply to Jeffery Watkins

Re: New theme for new site - comments appreciated!

by David Scotson -

I'm not sure what you mean by 'kick out' but I've never noticed any problems.

Our development site has these fonts as well as a text size changer, and I can't see problems at any font size, nor on our other sites that don't have the text size changer.

Even if I increase the text size to ridiculous levels, all the blocks follow the size increase of the widest block.

In reply to Ian Usher

Re: New theme for new site - comments appreciated!

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Hi Ian,

Great-looking site! and interesting resources too...

Ever since I started to work with CSS and - more recently - to customize our university Moolde, I've been especially irritated by the inconsistent ways in which various browsers, versions & computer platforms render font size. As you say, the very same HTML page can be anything from illegibly tiny to oversize depending on the end-user's environment.

Since our corporate environment meant MSIE on Windows 2000 (now XP) I first developed for that browser exclusively. More recently, concurrently with our adopting of Moodle, in fact, we are also using more & more Firefox (very few Macs around, however).

My personal history of CSS coding for font-size is as follows:

  1. I used fixed sizes, i.e. pixels to get a consistent display
    problem: pixel-coded fonts are resizable by the end-user in Mozilla browsers but not in MSIE (OK, it's a well-known bug, but...)
  2. I used relative sizes: % and ems to solve MSIE's resizing pb.
    problem: heritage means that fonts within classes within classes are automatically sized down (see http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/relative/)
  3. I am now using a combination of absolute-size keywords (small, etc.) , % and ems. This combination gives satisfying results on the 2 browsers I can test, MSIE 6.0 and Firefox 1.0 on Windows XP.
The advantages of solution #3 are as follow:
  1. by setting font-size:small as the starting-point, e.g. in the body class, my HTML pages are displayed exactly the same in both browsers, provided that MSIE is set at View/Text Size/Medium or Firefox is set at View/Text Size/Normal (or 100%).
    problem: I have wondered for a long time why what was "medium" to MSIE was in fact larger than what was "normal" (or 100%) to Mozilla. I have found the solution (when using absolute-size keywords): in order for HTML pages to display at the same size in both browsers, you must have this doctype declaration at the top of your HTML page: <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3c.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/loose.dtd">
  2. because of the problem mentioned above, many MSIE users (including myself) set by default their browser at view/text-size/smaller because otherwise many visited sites are displayed at what we consider to be an oversize size; well, those visitors won't see a very big difference for HTML pages coded the way I have chosen, whether their text-size is set at normal or smaller (i.e. it will still be legible at the smaller size)
  3. the annoying inheritance problem above has disappeared...

I am now planning to work on a Moodle theme based on my combination of absolute-size keywords (small, etc.) , % and ems. And I need fellow-moodlers' help.

a) could you please go have a look at my personal site http://rezeau.org which is uses a "mixed absolute & relative" stylesheet, resize the text-size view (within reason) in various browsers and tell me of any problems... I'm afraid it's in French...

b) regarding my planned Moodle theme, I'll have to place the <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional etc. doctype declaration in the header.html file. I have already tested it without any apparent problem. Do you think this might lead to problems?

Looking forward to your remarks,

Joseph

In reply to Ian Usher

Re: New theme for new site - comments appreciated!

by N Hansen -
Ian-I find the grey background of the blocks to be a bit out of place. I would suggest replacing the grey with the lighter green shade you use in the site header. That way it will flow together with the top bar of each block just as it does in the header.
In reply to Ian Usher

Re: New theme for new site - comments appreciated!

by Sally Student -

Wicked! I feel citrusy all over. Very nice job. I now know who to ask when I have customization questions wink.

Congratulations on a job well done.

Sally

In reply to Ian Usher

Re: New theme for new site - comments appreciated!

by Sreelakshmi Rao -
Good work!

I am also a moodler trying to customize our site,I just wanted to know where to edit to change the colors of bars of the blocks(top portion of the block) and to include copyright issue like in your's page.

Thanks in advance for the reply(if any)

In reply to Ian Usher

Re: New theme for new site - comments appreciated!

by Stuart Mealor -

Looks good - I like the graphics in the background of the table headings - must work out how to do this one day

I used to live and work in the UK (with the OU), but now I'm in NZ - nice to see good work still coming out the UK though!  lol

Stu

In reply to Ian Usher

Re: New theme for new site - comments appreciated!

by Miguel Paixão -

Ian,
I took a look at your site.
I like it very much. It´s light and warm, and with lots of class.
Miguel Paixão

In reply to Miguel Paixão

Re: New theme for new site - comments appreciated!

by Georges Segura -

Hi

please give me the address.

thanks

Georges