I have just noticed a very interesting article from Microsoft:
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;555372
quote:
After posting a question to a professional forum or newsgroup and
waiting for a while, you get the following answer(s) from the active
forum/newsgroup members:
"Your question does not contain all the required information needed for us to help you.
Please re-write your question, this time make sure you have all the needed info and
we'll try to help."
Another symptom of this error is getting the following answer:
"You question has been answered a zillion times. Please use a decent search engine
and/or search our archives before posting any future questions"
or
"RTFM"
"STFW"
"Google is your best friend"
and others.
Other
variations of the same answer exist, all depending on the
forum/newsgroup quality and percentage of hackers or open source
enthusiasts on the forum/newsgroup members list.
In some severe
cases, when trying to reply to this answer yourself, you may find out
that the nickname you've been using to post on the forum, or that the
alias you've been using to read and post on the newsgroup has been
banned for any future use.
This article is a loose how-to guide for correct forum and newsgroup question-asking and general netiquette.
....
It's greate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The original link is broken. Here's a new URL for the article.
We need a "how to ask a question" or "netiquette" page in docs.moodle.org so that we can point users to it when they need help with their forum posts. Is there one? If so, I wasn't able to find it. I am not qualified to write it, but if someone else starts it (someone who was around for this discussion in '05), we can all contribute.
We need a "how to ask a question" or "netiquette" page in docs.moodle.org so that we can point users to it when they need help with their forum posts. Is there one? If so, I wasn't able to find it. I am not qualified to write it, but if someone else starts it (someone who was around for this discussion in '05), we can all contribute.
IMHO we should copy this, edit to be more relevant to Moodle, and publish it as a Resource on moodle.org. Then, forums which new members of the community are likely to ask their questions in should include a link to that resource in the forum description.
What do you think?
What do you think?
I think it would probably make a lot of new people...and a few not-so-new, look for other places to ask questions. I think a lot of people would read the information below and interpert it as basically saying "Don't ask your stupid question here...nobody has time for you."
Let's assume that someone did have a problem and they took the advice below and asked their friend...and let's assume their friend was able to help. How did that help the "Moodle community?".
On any discussion board there will be redundant questions, there will be incomplete questions, there will be questions that are answered in the manual, etc....that's part of the nature of an online community.
Of course, if the objective is to reduce the amount of disccussion on Moodle.org, then posting this stuff in a forum description is one way to accomplish that. Just my opinion 
Before asking
- Search the archives/FAQ before you post. Most forums and newsgroups have some sort of online FAQ (FAQ stands for Frequently Asked Questions) or archives. You should always perform a search on these resources before asking your "very important and unique" question. Many questions have already been answered, there is no point in answering them again, and some communities have members who will flame you for not doing so before asking. In fact, it's a very good idea to do a keyword search for words relating to your problem on the archives before you post. It may find you an answer, and if not it will help you formulate a better question.
- Use online search engines such as MSN Search, Google (which, by now, you should know is your friend), Yahoo! and others. Post the error message you're getting on your preferred search engine and see what you come up with. For example:
"I searched Google and found this page that discusses a similar error..."
- Look for an answer in the manual (or RTFM for short), documentation or Readme file. For example:
"The readme clearly indicated that I should do this, but it seems to..."
- Ask a skilled friend, but don't take their advice for granted. Many troubleshooting scenarios just got worse because "my friend told me to erase the E00.log file and"...
I do not answer questions like:
"My Moodle does not work, what shall I do. I need solution ASAP. You must help me now!!"
Any technical question should have following info:
"My Moodle does not work, what shall I do. I need solution ASAP. You must help me now!!"
Any technical question should have following info:
- exact Moodle version
- OS
- www server type
- php version
- db type
I read the article and thought that the responses were typical of
almost every forum on the web that I'd come across... except moodle.org
forums. 
Steve, I agree with your comment:
"On any discussion board there will be redundant questions, there will be incomplete questions, there will be questions that are answered in the manual, etc....that's part of the nature of an online community."
However, I believe that within our Moodle community there are enough people to answer every type of question asked.
Petr, I think you're right not to answer questions lacking info -
you're such a valuable and clever developer - all the complicated
technical questions are for you, Jon or other developers to answer! (A big THANK YOU to you all!)
Steve, you're good at writing longer answers e.g. about blogs. I couldn't write so much - this is probably my longest post ever! 
(A big THANK YOU to you too!)
Easier questions are for me to answer - I really like receiving
emails from Moodle newcomers thanking me for answering their question,
despite it being incomplete/answered elsewhere etc! 
Also, I've learnt a lot from trying to help others - explaining
something to someone else helps me to understand it better myself!
Great points Helen...as usual.
You point out something that is just as true in discussion forums as it is in life...in any social gathering, there are all kids of people...that's a great thing. I can understand, for example, why some would not reply to a "general call for help", like "My Moodle is broken...Help!". But, others may actually enjoy replying by asking for more specifics and following-up in a dialogue to help.
I try to teach students in my classes...mostly adult learners...about netiquette and communicating clearly online, but sometimes I still get very general, one-liners where I can't really understand what they are trying to say...the same thing happens in many face-to-face conversations...that's life
Moodle.org is a very "inviting" virtual environment...I would hate to see it take on the tone I see in a lot of other very active discussion forums...like webhostingtalk.com for example...it is a very good place to get information, but 7 times out of 10 you will be insulted and made to feel like an idiot for asking a question.
Steve
Yes indeed. There is awesome appeal to the moodle community of support and practice. I am fast learning that it is the envy of many.
Take a read of this flattering comment by a self-confessed "occasional" moodler who puts into words what many of us think:
http://www.weblogg-ed.com/discuss/msgReader$3793?mode=day
IMHO whatever is ahead for Moodle the number one thing that must be protected is the open and collaborative nature of the community.
Take a read of this flattering comment by a self-confessed "occasional" moodler who puts into words what many of us think:
http://www.weblogg-ed.com/discuss/msgReader$3793?mode=day
IMHO whatever is ahead for Moodle the number one thing that must be protected is the open and collaborative nature of the community.
I think information like this (specifics to include in a post to clarify the situation) could be added to forum description at the top of the, ummm, forum!
Also, it would be nice if there were a 'Please read before posting' course resource which briefly explained where to ask which questions how to use the search feature and other issues that pop up occasionally like 'how do I switch off e-mail' copies. A kind of forum mini FAQ for users (not techies)
This should, of course, be designed to encourage people to feel comfortable about asking questions rather than a usenet charter type set of rules which may, as pointed out, restrict posting.
I think the problem with having this advice in a tounge in cheek usenet parady will be lost of people who don't frequent newsgroups or, indeed, web forums. It still made me smile though
I assume it was a parady 
Also, it would be nice if there were a 'Please read before posting' course resource which briefly explained where to ask which questions how to use the search feature and other issues that pop up occasionally like 'how do I switch off e-mail' copies. A kind of forum mini FAQ for users (not techies)
This should, of course, be designed to encourage people to feel comfortable about asking questions rather than a usenet charter type set of rules which may, as pointed out, restrict posting.
I think the problem with having this advice in a tounge in cheek usenet parady will be lost of people who don't frequent newsgroups or, indeed, web forums. It still made me smile though
Steve, you raise interesting points so I 'll try to address them and perhaps clarify some details of what I was thinking in the process.
First of all, in saying "modify to be relevant to Moodle", I meant several things. One would be to rewrite the text to be more brief and friendly, where needed. Martin has a natural talent for writing in that style. Maybe that would help, if you fear that the guidelines sound too harsh to new users.
That said, I can't see how such a text would drive someone to think "they don't want my question here", when the very reason that these forums exist is for questions to be asked.
You also mention "...nobody has time for you". Time is a very important resource that nobody has enough of. Can you think of an example where you would ask an ignorant question and somebody would devote as much time as required to help you understand: a) why your question was ignorant, b) what you should have asked instead, and c) what the answer to the correct question is? For me, this has only happened when I asked something to my father or to one of the exceptional teachers I have studied under. In both cases, those people had very strong reasons to take the time to answer me: they wanted me to learn (presumably, for them this was one of the intangible rewards of the job), and they felt it was their obligation to do so (because I was their son, or because they were being paid to do it). Also, do not forget that in the above cases there was also an existing personal relationship between the asking and the replying party.
Now let's compare this with the situation in online forums. In such a forum, the volume of questions easily overwhelms the capacity of those who might answer them. That's why we have FAQs; that's why we have auto-linking glossaries in moodle.org; that's why we archive past discussions and provide search functionality. Even if they don't provide the answer directly, these resources can help the asking party to get closer to their result. In effect, they take off some (or all, in a perfect day) of the burden of replying by letting the asking party "do their homework".
I consider it impolite, to say the least, if someone demonstrates full disregard for my time, and at the same time seems to value their time greatly (they don't devote some of it to do their homework). And as in real life, you might comply with an impolite request for various reasons. But you won't like it, and over a long period of time this might shape your general outlook.
This is doubly true if we happen to be talking about a good-sized text that is available for people to read. If you have been involved in writing a text targeted to people with little or no knowledge of the subject you want to cover, you surely know how difficult and time-consuming it is to make sure that you actually output something useful. A good example of what not to do are several Linux man(ual) pages, which are useful to those who already know their stuff and want a reference text, and completely useless to newbies. Apart from the difficulty of writing such a text, the time that you devote (which could be spent constructively doing other things) makes it painfully clear that you are not doing this for yourself; you are doing it for the benefit of others.
How would you feel then, if those others were ignoring this effort and asking the same questions over and over again?
I guess what I 'm trying to say, and what the Microsoft KB article mentions as well, is that people who help you in online forums are doing you a small favor. The very least you can do in return is make sure that you don't blatantly ignore the efforts they have already made to help others in the past (hence, search the forums, read the FAQ etc). Now I know that most people who "blatantly ignore" the above don't do so on purpose; but we 're human beings here, it doesn't help if I know that I have answered the exact same question one week ago. In fact, this happens very frequently.
There's also the personal outlook of the people involved in this process. I suppose you are familiar with the saying "Give a man some fish, and you will feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish, and you will feed him for a lifetime". For some people (including myself), teaching people how to fish is an activity rewarding in itself. On the other hand, giving people fish is something I wouldn't do unless I was paid for it. Again, if you don't want to spend some of your time so that your question can be answered, it's hard for me to believe that you are interested in learning how to fish at all.
Another interesting point that comes up more often than you might expect is this: Moodle is being developed mainly by a small group of people. Since it's a very big project, what happens is that each person in the development team focuses in one or more areas of Moodle, and there isn't much interference between two developers in the same part of the code. The end result is that in each part of the code, you have one or two "experts" at most among the developers. This actually makes a lot of sense, since there is only so much time for each of us, and having many people spend the time to become experts in the same thing is counter-productive for the whole effort.
What this translates to, is that every so often you see a question in the forums which has these two characteristics: a) for some reason or other (like those discussed above), you strongly dislike answering it, and b) you know for a fact that you are the only person who is in position to answer it. Or, to put it even better than that: you could answer it in ten minutes because it's all in your head right now, but if some other developer makes the effort of researching your code they would spend an hour doing so (it's not in their head right now). So if you let someone else do it (supposing, of course, that they would do it) you are in fact showing the same lack of respect for their time that you are expecting for yours.
What would you do in such an occasion? Petr says "I don't answer such questions", and for me that's also true more than 90% of the time. This means that those questions in all likelihood stay totally unanswered. Is that a good thing?
I 've written too much already, so a couple more things quickly to wrap it up:
"...and let's assume their friend was able to help. How did that help the Moodle community?"
Which friend exactly? Google, or a real-life friend? If it's Google, then I would say that the Moodle community is already doing a fine job answering that specific question, thank you. If it's a real-life person, then obviously this has nothing to do with the Moodle community. If you knew your flatmate is a Moodle expert, would you ask your question in these forums or knock next door?
On any discussion board there will be redundant questions, there will be incomplete questions, there will be questions that are answered in the manual, etc....that's part of the nature of an online community.
Of course. I don't suggest being totalitarian about it. However, there is a big difference between the above questions being 10% of the whole, and them being 90% of the whole. Personally I believe that Moodle is already doing well in this regard, but why not encourage people to help even more?
My apologies and congratulations to everyone who had the patience to read this.
First of all, in saying "modify to be relevant to Moodle", I meant several things. One would be to rewrite the text to be more brief and friendly, where needed. Martin has a natural talent for writing in that style.
Maybe that would help, if you fear that the guidelines sound too harsh to new users.That said, I can't see how such a text would drive someone to think "they don't want my question here", when the very reason that these forums exist is for questions to be asked.
You also mention "...nobody has time for you". Time is a very important resource that nobody has enough of. Can you think of an example where you would ask an ignorant question and somebody would devote as much time as required to help you understand: a) why your question was ignorant, b) what you should have asked instead, and c) what the answer to the correct question is? For me, this has only happened when I asked something to my father or to one of the exceptional teachers I have studied under. In both cases, those people had very strong reasons to take the time to answer me: they wanted me to learn (presumably, for them this was one of the intangible rewards of the job), and they felt it was their obligation to do so (because I was their son, or because they were being paid to do it). Also, do not forget that in the above cases there was also an existing personal relationship between the asking and the replying party.
Now let's compare this with the situation in online forums. In such a forum, the volume of questions easily overwhelms the capacity of those who might answer them. That's why we have FAQs; that's why we have auto-linking glossaries in moodle.org; that's why we archive past discussions and provide search functionality. Even if they don't provide the answer directly, these resources can help the asking party to get closer to their result. In effect, they take off some (or all, in a perfect day) of the burden of replying by letting the asking party "do their homework".
I consider it impolite, to say the least, if someone demonstrates full disregard for my time, and at the same time seems to value their time greatly (they don't devote some of it to do their homework). And as in real life, you might comply with an impolite request for various reasons. But you won't like it, and over a long period of time this might shape your general outlook.
This is doubly true if we happen to be talking about a good-sized text that is available for people to read. If you have been involved in writing a text targeted to people with little or no knowledge of the subject you want to cover, you surely know how difficult and time-consuming it is to make sure that you actually output something useful. A good example of what not to do are several Linux man(ual) pages, which are useful to those who already know their stuff and want a reference text, and completely useless to newbies. Apart from the difficulty of writing such a text, the time that you devote (which could be spent constructively doing other things) makes it painfully clear that you are not doing this for yourself; you are doing it for the benefit of others.
How would you feel then, if those others were ignoring this effort and asking the same questions over and over again?
I guess what I 'm trying to say, and what the Microsoft KB article mentions as well, is that people who help you in online forums are doing you a small favor. The very least you can do in return is make sure that you don't blatantly ignore the efforts they have already made to help others in the past (hence, search the forums, read the FAQ etc). Now I know that most people who "blatantly ignore" the above don't do so on purpose; but we 're human beings here, it doesn't help if I know that I have answered the exact same question one week ago. In fact, this happens very frequently.
There's also the personal outlook of the people involved in this process. I suppose you are familiar with the saying "Give a man some fish, and you will feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish, and you will feed him for a lifetime". For some people (including myself), teaching people how to fish is an activity rewarding in itself. On the other hand, giving people fish is something I wouldn't do unless I was paid for it. Again, if you don't want to spend some of your time so that your question can be answered, it's hard for me to believe that you are interested in learning how to fish at all.
Another interesting point that comes up more often than you might expect is this: Moodle is being developed mainly by a small group of people. Since it's a very big project, what happens is that each person in the development team focuses in one or more areas of Moodle, and there isn't much interference between two developers in the same part of the code. The end result is that in each part of the code, you have one or two "experts" at most among the developers. This actually makes a lot of sense, since there is only so much time for each of us, and having many people spend the time to become experts in the same thing is counter-productive for the whole effort.
What this translates to, is that every so often you see a question in the forums which has these two characteristics: a) for some reason or other (like those discussed above), you strongly dislike answering it, and b) you know for a fact that you are the only person who is in position to answer it. Or, to put it even better than that: you could answer it in ten minutes because it's all in your head right now, but if some other developer makes the effort of researching your code they would spend an hour doing so (it's not in their head right now). So if you let someone else do it (supposing, of course, that they would do it) you are in fact showing the same lack of respect for their time that you are expecting for yours.
What would you do in such an occasion? Petr says "I don't answer such questions", and for me that's also true more than 90% of the time. This means that those questions in all likelihood stay totally unanswered. Is that a good thing?
I 've written too much already, so a couple more things quickly to wrap it up:
"...and let's assume their friend was able to help. How did that help the Moodle community?"
Which friend exactly? Google, or a real-life friend? If it's Google, then I would say that the Moodle community is already doing a fine job answering that specific question, thank you. If it's a real-life person, then obviously this has nothing to do with the Moodle community. If you knew your flatmate is a Moodle expert, would you ask your question in these forums or knock next door?
On any discussion board there will be redundant questions, there will be incomplete questions, there will be questions that are answered in the manual, etc....that's part of the nature of an online community.
Of course. I don't suggest being totalitarian about it. However, there is a big difference between the above questions being 10% of the whole, and them being 90% of the whole. Personally I believe that Moodle is already doing well in this regard, but why not encourage people to help even more?
My apologies and congratulations to everyone who had the patience to read this.
Wow Jon, lots to think about - thanks! 
I'm going to try to teach more people how to fish, rather than just feeding them.
Great approach!
>>What would you do in such an occasion? Petr says "I don't answer such questions", and for me that's also true more than 90% of the time. This means that those questions in all likelihood stay totally unanswered. Is that a good thing?<<
Yes and no. It's one of two possible things you can do so far.
As for my case (or personal view), If I ask a question, I'll never ask it because I feel to bee too dumb to search FAQ, forums etc. I'll ask it because I didn't succeed finding the appropriate materials. This can have many causes: My English is not as good as yours and I search for the wrong (or even misspelled) keywords - I was missleaded by a missleading feature setting (like that one with the time zone, recently - you remember?) - aso. - or I am really too dumb, but I'm not aware of ...
If you do not answer, I even get an answer: "Your question is incomplete, or it is answered again and again, or your text was too offending because of your particular wording." I'll never think, that nobody is willing to answer me.
As for a more effective solution and probably most helpful for everybody, I can suggest, only to answer with "SF:Forumname,KW:blabla xyz abc", which means "Search Forum 'Forum name' and use KeyWords 'blabla xyz abc' and you get the answer", in case you know that you've answered this question millions of times already. This does not even take you 10 minutes but 30 seconds and would help newbees like me a lot in finding the right ressource in that hughe ressource pool.
Let's come to the closing words. I was at the point of abbandon just more than once in theese env. 2 month, I try to build a Moodle-based palatform, because I could not find a solution for my way of thinking how things should happen. If newbees don't get answers (by forum, and by searching) they abbandon. And they are lost for the future. And they never will speak of Moodle as "The solution". Shure, it's up to everybody with advanced skills to think: "Well, I don't worry about".
Greetings - Martin
PS: Writing this text in English was an intellectual maximum output for me. It is meant to be social constructivistic, not the opposite. If not in realty, I'm sorry very much at all.
Martin, thanks for your comments.
I am full of admiration for everyone here for whom English is not their first language. Your contributions are valued greatly. 
If I don't understand someone's question, I often check their profile to find out where they are from. If it's a fabulous-sounding location such as Spain or Switzerland
then I try harder to understand. (Maybe I'll receive a holiday invitation one day... )
I am full of admiration for everyone here for whom English is not their first language.
Your contributions are valued greatly. If I don't understand someone's question, I often check their profile to find out where they are from. If it's a fabulous-sounding location such as Spain or Switzerland
then I try harder to understand. (Maybe I'll receive a holiday invitation one day... ) >>Maybe I'll receive a holiday invitation one day... <<
Sorry, we have cats enough in our country, at least if they look like that on your avatar
Please note:
I 'm not suggesting that I expect people to be as tall as us (developers), as familiar with the code as us, or whatever else.
The examples above, illustrating things that "should not be done", were purely that: examples to be avoided. For instance, messages like "I just installed Moodle and I see a white screen, please help" are obviously so lacking in information that no help can be given as they stand. However, people still post them!
The world would be a much better place if every post for help included even the Moodle version it refers to.
(To their credit, 90% of people do include this information, and more).
PS: Heh... I remember a programmer's joke a colleague had made a few years ago. He made a general-purpose script where the program was redirected whenever a form with insufficient data was submitted. There was a message "The data you submitted was not complete. Would you like me to read your mind?". "No" got you back to the form. "Yes" redirected to mind_read.php: "Please touch your forehead to the screen and remain in that position until notified."
I 'm not suggesting that I expect people to be as tall as us (developers), as familiar with the code as us, or whatever else.
The examples above, illustrating things that "should not be done", were purely that: examples to be avoided. For instance, messages like "I just installed Moodle and I see a white screen, please help" are obviously so lacking in information that no help can be given as they stand. However, people still post them!
The world would be a much better place if every post for help included even the Moodle version it refers to.
(To their credit, 90% of people do include this information, and more).PS: Heh... I remember a programmer's joke a colleague had made a few years ago. He made a general-purpose script where the program was redirected whenever a form with insufficient data was submitted. There was a message "The data you submitted was not complete. Would you like me to read your mind?". "No" got you back to the form. "Yes" redirected to mind_read.php: "Please touch your forehead to the screen and remain in that position until notified."
LOL
Those things happen all day in help desk situations. Almost weekly I get messages like :" computer 2 from classroom A21 does weird things". When I go up there to look, it just stands there normaly like all the others .
It's funny: the same people expect from their students to give complete and clear answers on their tests. From that point of view, I think collaborating in a community like this changes ones attitude towards the quality of questions and the quality of answers: they are often closely related. Since here the same people ask questions and provide answers, you get exercise doing both, thereby feeling connected with both sides of the (help)desk.
Those things happen all day in help desk situations. Almost weekly I get messages like :" computer 2 from classroom A21 does weird things". When I go up there to look, it just stands there normaly like all the others
It's funny: the same people expect from their students to give complete and clear answers on their tests. From that point of view, I think collaborating in a community like this changes ones attitude towards the quality of questions and the quality of answers: they are often closely related. Since here the same people ask questions and provide answers, you get exercise doing both, thereby feeling connected with both sides of the (help)desk.
My -1 to use something whose origin is a Microsoft article. Sure it introduces some viruses in moodle.org 
Ciao
Ciao
Well, we could use Eric S. Raymond's How To Ask Questions The Smart Way instead 
, but I'm quite sure it would be received as quite arrogant. I like the MS one better. The Moodle one is even better. But it's obvious that a lot of people don't read that either.
Many of Raymond's writings sound arrogant even to myself, who is supposedly not the type of person they are targeted at. Microsoft is doing very well in the "sounding friendly" department though.
Eloy, I wouldn't mind copying from Microsoft guidelines for the same reason I wouldn't mind copying from Apple user interfaces: those people do it far better than I could.
Eloy, I wouldn't mind copying from Microsoft guidelines for the same reason I wouldn't mind copying from Apple user interfaces: those people do it far better than I could.
Hi,
obviously I have to agree to the interfaces part, but the other, exactly the first one, uhm... I prefer to avoid copying from there...
OT: Do you know how is going to be called next MS OS?
Windows Vista (sounds pretty familiar)
(innovative name for an innovative OS made by an innovative company)
obviously I have to agree to the interfaces part, but the other, exactly the first one, uhm... I prefer to avoid copying from there...
OT: Do you know how is going to be called next MS OS?
Windows Vista (sounds pretty familiar)
(innovative name for an innovative OS made by an innovative company)
We've had this for a year
Is that something that new enrolments on moodle.org can be taken to automatically? A sort of friendly splash screen?
I did read this when I first joined up but some may miss it..... but are there signs of flippant posts?
I did read this when I first joined up but some may miss it..... but are there signs of flippant posts?
I could certainly make it a site policy, but I'm not sure if it's necessary ... I'll think about it.
Maybe a button (as a que) left of the "show in nested form" choice-box of the forum.
Maybe change the Moodle icon under your head in a please ask logo and add the stuff on the top of the new page that pops up?
I didn't know it existed. Perhaps linked from the forum description -- in forums where people come for help?
I'm often tempted to link to "How to ask smart questions" piece by RMS that has been mentioned before, but that piece has problems in itself as Jon points out.
I'm often tempted to link to "How to ask smart questions" piece by RMS that has been mentioned before, but that piece has problems in itself as Jon points out.
I didn't know. 
Maybe up the visibility a bit?
Maybe up the visibility a bit?
I'm sorry to come late to this discussion but I thought that this set of guidelines was more appropriate (and more in tune with how Moodle.org is currently):
http://www.css-discuss.org/policies.html#ask-answer
I like it because it focuses first on encouraging the person to actually ask a question, because the only thing worse than a 'dumb' question is one that goes unasked through intimidation. It then tackles the other end of the equation by explicitly prohibiting negative responses (which thankfully, and almost uniquely, are not a problem currently on Moodle.org).
It's also worth pondering what has to occur in the life cycle of a Question before it deserves the title of Frequently Asked Question.
It is amazing how many forums are full of
"RTFM"
"STFW"
"Google is your best friend"
A famous CMS and a popular blog software show that tendency quite strongly.
I think that searchin in google or even forums, ensuring that things that have been asked before have the same relevance, and then decifering what is being said takes time. However, answering questions takes time.
A very good thing about the Moodle forums seems to be that there are a large number of users that both ask and answer questions. That is to say that it is not just a core of tired developers and experts answering questions but a large number of users that are answering them also. The greater the divide between askers and answerers the more overworked answerers will have a tendency to say "Google is your best friend."
Timothy
"RTFM"
"STFW"
"Google is your best friend"
A famous CMS and a popular blog software show that tendency quite strongly.
I think that searchin in google or even forums, ensuring that things that have been asked before have the same relevance, and then decifering what is being said takes time. However, answering questions takes time.
A very good thing about the Moodle forums seems to be that there are a large number of users that both ask and answer questions. That is to say that it is not just a core of tired developers and experts answering questions but a large number of users that are answering them also. The greater the divide between askers and answerers the more overworked answerers will have a tendency to say "Google is your best friend."
Timothy
I will simply add that it is our friendly, encouraging, overwhelmingly positive community that has created my emotional attachment to Moodle. The truth is that I could live with less wonderful software like Blackboard and WebCT. They are not as good, but I could make do. Sorry, but it is really true in my case.
But to be a member of this community has been an amazing, irreplaceable experience for me and other teachers I know. Truly unique. It really feels like my online home to me. I have literally sought out Internet cafes in far-off lands to get my daily Moodle-fix.
And I can honestly say that I have made genuine friends in this community. I have been in their homes and they have been in mine. I know their familes. And the friends I have not yet met in person are the reason that I will certainly find a way to attend at least a couple of Moodle Moots somewhere, some time.
On the other hand, I remember asking an innocent question at phpnuke.org once and getting slapped around for several days. I am a grown man, a reasonably successful educator, and generally a pretty confident, resilient guy, but it still stings years later. This has NEVER happened to me here, and I have asked some pretty dumb questions. And I love that.
I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for Moodle developers to deal with some of the questions that seem more like demands. It would certainly make me crazy. So maybe we do need to think about doing a better job in educating people about the appropriate way to ask for free, world-class assistance here.
But let's be careful. We don't want to make this a less friendly place, I am sure. We might lose something precious. At least to me.
-- Art
But to be a member of this community has been an amazing, irreplaceable experience for me and other teachers I know. Truly unique. It really feels like my online home to me. I have literally sought out Internet cafes in far-off lands to get my daily Moodle-fix.
And I can honestly say that I have made genuine friends in this community. I have been in their homes and they have been in mine. I know their familes. And the friends I have not yet met in person are the reason that I will certainly find a way to attend at least a couple of Moodle Moots somewhere, some time.
On the other hand, I remember asking an innocent question at phpnuke.org once and getting slapped around for several days. I am a grown man, a reasonably successful educator, and generally a pretty confident, resilient guy, but it still stings years later. This has NEVER happened to me here, and I have asked some pretty dumb questions. And I love that.
I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for Moodle developers to deal with some of the questions that seem more like demands. It would certainly make me crazy. So maybe we do need to think about doing a better job in educating people about the appropriate way to ask for free, world-class assistance here.
But let's be careful. We don't want to make this a less friendly place, I am sure. We might lose something precious. At least to me.
-- Art
As a relatively new user, this whole discussion was very interesting to me. I am wondering if part of the problem (from the new person's point of view) is the fact that a few of the forums (in particular, general problems and installation problems) are just so huge! It is difficult to find the information you are looking for if you don't use the "right" key words. And daunting to scroll through page after page of posts.
I agree with Art in thinking it would be the wrong thing to do to make people feel hesitant to ask questions. A stern policy would freeze me! I don't even know what "RTFM" and "STFW" mean, although I intend to look them up in the very near future. I will be making the pitch for moving our campus to Moodle from BB next spring if my research turns out the way I expect. I wouldn't do it if I didn't have a significant degree of confidence that we could get help if we run into serious trouble with our instance. I would bite the bullet and stay with Blackboard. Keeping our Moodle instance running without any problems (more serious than login stuff, anyway) for a maximum of 70+ instructors and 1400 students is THE most important thing. I will advocate the change if the pilot instructors and students say "YES!", the system admin says "This looks practical from the server end", and I can sleep at night knowing that I haven't tumbled us all off an open source precipice (which I don't believe will be a problem, but there are times we can all remember when we have been burned. . .) The forums are my safety net! And I have/will ask some stupid questions, sometimes. Hopefully, I will be able to answer a few questions eventually and take some load off other people.
The moodle community is great because it allows folks with diverse talents to share what they can give, and take what they cannot provide for themselves. Maybe part of the answer is to make it easier to post in the right place.
I don't know if this is a good idea or not, but I like the way topic 2 is split up into many more specific forums (every module is listed separately). I always wondered why there was no forum, for example, on themes and css. For installation problems, maybe we should have a forum for Mac, Windows, and Linux, for example. Or divide things according to version--1.4, 1.5, 1.6. Sometimes you don't know WHERE to post, because you might not realize exactly what your problem is, (say moodle bug vs. php version), so there will still be cross over posts. But it would be easier to find things related to the problem at hand.
The instructions at the top of the installation problems forum already say "As part of your problem description, please supply as much relevant background information as you can about the versions and configuration of your server OS, PHP, browser and Moodle." You could put those in a contrasting color so they would be more noticeable.
Hmm, Hmm, well I was glad to see that there were polite forms of the acronyms! They did seem rather out of place for Moodle forums, I am glad to say!
RTFM / STFW: I wouldn't talk like that to my dogs. In fact, I don't talk like that to my dogs.
-- Art
-- Art
Is that because such talk would make your dogs bite you?
As much as what might be considered a "dumb", "ignorant" or incomplete question I have to say that it is the compassion and patience on moodle with most that makes it such a great board to work with on questions.
Some of us are wanna-be techno geeks, (not to offend), and really would like to learn many of these computer techniques but don't have the training "yet" to understand the lingo, important issues etc.
I just held a long winded class - in house - at my center yesterday exlaining the differences of OS's and browsers and the good majority of them didn't kow the difference. That was just the prep to teach them how to use "tabs' in mozilla style browsers so they can run open all their forums quickly to participate rapidly and stay with the requirements of the schools activities.
If I treated my students like RTFM I wouldn't have many left...
I am very greatful to how helpful and gracious people can be on moodle.org
As much as what might be considered a "dumb", "ignorant" or incomplete question I have to say that it is the compassion and patience on moodle with most that makes it such a great board to work with on questions.
Some of us are wanna-be techno geeks, (not to offend), and really would like to learn many of these computer techniques but don't have the training "yet" to understand the lingo, important issues etc.
I just held a long winded class - in house - at my center yesterday exlaining the differences of OS's and browsers and the good majority of them didn't kow the difference. That was just the prep to teach them how to use "tabs' in mozilla style browsers so they can run open all their forums quickly to participate rapidly and stay with the requirements of the schools activities.
If I treated my students like RTFM I wouldn't have many left...
I am very greatful to how helpful and gracious people can be on moodle.org
Dear A. T.,
Thanks for your post.
>>As a relatively new user, this whole discussion was very interesting to me. I am wondering if part of the problem (from the new person's point of view) is the fact that a few of the forums (in particular, general problems and installation problems) are just so huge! It is difficult to find the information you are looking for if you don't use the "right" key words. And daunting to scroll through page after page of posts.
Yes, I have the same problem.
Even as a so-called experienced user of Moodle, I have a very hard time finding information and then feel frustrated when I can't keep it or put it in a place where I can refer to it easily. The installation forum has about 10 basic problems that keep reoccuring (and cover 80% of the range of problems) and I think we are wrong to ask newcomers to "search the forums" for the answers. It would not be hard to assign someone to collect those top ten problems and have a short solution guide and a links to appropriate topics or documents. Some forum software have a heading post that remains at the top which posters will see first (a 'sticky' post). One person is assigned to maintain it. I would like to try that system and would be happy to watch and maintain it.
Thanks for your post.
>>As a relatively new user, this whole discussion was very interesting to me. I am wondering if part of the problem (from the new person's point of view) is the fact that a few of the forums (in particular, general problems and installation problems) are just so huge! It is difficult to find the information you are looking for if you don't use the "right" key words. And daunting to scroll through page after page of posts.
Yes, I have the same problem.
A top 10 list sounds like a great idea Don.
How does this compare to the FAQ section?
My answer: I suppose it would be more dynamic in nature, changing from week to week to reflect forum posts and dealing with specific issues that arise from new versions.
The FAQ's last updated entry was 1 July, almost 4 weeks ago. IMO the Moodle train moves so fast that we need something more fluid to keep up but without so much info to read through - a barebones support page for at least the BIG issues people face:
new installation
upgrades
backup & restore
general problems
Perhaps we could start with these areas and see how it works?? Whatya think?
How does this compare to the FAQ section?
My answer: I suppose it would be more dynamic in nature, changing from week to week to reflect forum posts and dealing with specific issues that arise from new versions.
The FAQ's last updated entry was 1 July, almost 4 weeks ago. IMO the Moodle train moves so fast that we need something more fluid to keep up but without so much info to read through - a barebones support page for at least the BIG issues people face:
new installation
upgrades
backup & restore
general problems
Perhaps we could start with these areas and see how it works?? Whatya think?
"I always wondered why there was no forum, for example, on themes and css."
Whenever themes are mentioned, the word is auto-linked to the Themes forum.
Perhaps the Themes forum should be moved from section 4 Development news and discussion and included in section 2 Other components.
I see that! I never clicked on it because the highlight looks the same as for the glossary. "Themes" does go to a forum, which I never found, and "css" goes to a glossary. But they look the same in your reply. I never picked up on the lack of a ? icon, or read the full link at the bottom of the browser. It is like teaching my students to interpret all of the different ways the mouse can appear (in Windows, at least). Sometimes you don't notice things that really tell you a lot.
I would like section 2 (other components) to be split. Modules in one topic, other components in a second topic, and alphabetize.
I would like section 2 (other components) to be split. Modules in one topic, other components in a second topic, and alphabetize.
Please note that, in addition to forum name and glossary of common terms linking, site FAQs are also auto-linked by keywords e.g. definition of Moodle.
This thread reminded me of something not so much related how to ask a question but rather an article why "A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy". I'm not saying that this is the case here, rather it was an insightful article.
It discusses pattern seen over and over again in social software that supports large and long-lived groups.
It discusses pattern seen over and over again in social software that supports large and long-lived groups.
"A Group is Its Own Worst Enemy"
I think this is the link: http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html
-- Art
I think this is the link: http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html
-- Art
Hi,
Have been playing with Firefox and got it to do some fun things.
Have added two entries to the Moodle.org FAQ :
and
Often doing a quick search of Moodle can turn up answers to questions you have a lot quicker than posting a question and waiting for an answer. Hope my experiments encourage more searching before posting. And I hope Moodle remains such a friendly place.
Jamie
Have been playing with Firefox and got it to do some fun things.
Have added two entries to the Moodle.org FAQ :
How to add a quick search of Moodle to the Firefox browser
and
Install Mozilla Search Plugs in for searching googling Moodle.org and searching the Using Moodle forums.
Hope this helps others.Often doing a quick search of Moodle can turn up answers to questions you have a lot quicker than posting a question and waiting for an answer. Hope my experiments encourage more searching before posting. And I hope Moodle remains such a friendly place.
Jamie
Hi,
Have been playing with Firefox and got it to do some fun things.
Have added two entries to the Moodle.org FAQ :
and
Often doing a quick search of Moodle can turn up answers to questions you have a lot quicker than posting a question and waiting for an answer. Hope my experiments encourage more searching before posting. And I hope Moodle remains such a friendly place.
Jamie
Have been playing with Firefox and got it to do some fun things.
Have added two entries to the Moodle.org FAQ :
How to add a quick search of Moodle to the Firefox browser
and
Install Mozilla Search Plugs in for searching googling Moodle.org and searching the Using Moodle forums.
Hope this helps others.Often doing a quick search of Moodle can turn up answers to questions you have a lot quicker than posting a question and waiting for an answer. Hope my experiments encourage more searching before posting. And I hope Moodle remains such a friendly place.
Jamie
Nice tip, Jamie. Somehow I cant' find it in the FAQ. Where do I have to look?
Sorry.
I think Martin or someone else with teacher access will have to unhide the entry and then it will be autolinked in the post above. Until then here is the text of my FAQ posts :
Fill out the dialogue box that opens something like as shown in the attached screen shot. You should enter this information :
Location : http://moodle.org/mod/forum/search.php?id=5&search=%s
and
Keyword : m
Then you will be able to type the following in the location bar of your browser.
m Flash
and this will open a page to search for the term 'Flash' in Using Moodle.
To set up a similar shortcut to Google Moodle enter :
Location : http://www.google.co.in/search?q=site%3Amoodle.org%20%s
and
Keyword : gm
Then typing gm Firefox will search all of the Moodle site for search term Firefox and return results sorted by Google ranking, a good way to find informative discussions and pages on the whole Moodle site.
and also :
I think Martin or someone else with teacher access will have to unhide the entry and then it will be autolinked in the post above. Until then here is the text of my FAQ posts :
A 'Quick search' is a shortcut to use a search engine so that you can type for example m firefox into the address bar of Firefox to search Using Moodle for search term firefox. In Firefox these
are very easy to set up. Just click on the 'Manage Bookmarks...' item
on the Bookmarks menu. Then click on any item in the 'Quick Searches'
folder and click the toolbar button 'New Bookmark....'
Should also work for other Mozilla browsers such as Netscape.
Should also work for other Mozilla browsers such as Netscape.
Quick Search 'Using Moodle'
Fill out the dialogue box that opens something like as shown in the attached screen shot. You should enter this information :
Location : http://moodle.org/mod/forum/search.php?id=5&search=%s
and
Keyword : m
Then you will be able to type the following in the location bar of your browser.
m Flash
and this will open a page to search for the term 'Flash' in Using Moodle.
Quick Google of Moodle
To set up a similar shortcut to Google Moodle enter :
Location : http://www.google.co.in/search?q=site%3Amoodle.org%20%s
and
Keyword : gm
Then typing gm Firefox will search all of the Moodle site for search term Firefox and return results sorted by Google ranking, a good way to find informative discussions and pages on the whole Moodle site.
There are also 2 Mozilla search plug-ins available for searching Moodle. Click on this link to get them.
They are very easy to install just click on the links and they are
installed automatically. The search plug-ins allow you to enter your
search term in the search box to the right of the address bar in
firefox.
This search plug in will work with other Mozilla browsers such as Netscape.
This search plug in will work with other Mozilla browsers such as Netscape.
Jamie,
Thanks for making the moodle search plugin.
To add to this:
To add to this:
- You can drag and drop text selected from a web page onto the Search Box to perform a search.
- This page describes a method which works with all kinds of search engines. You can create a Smart Keyword for any search on any web site by right clicking on the search field and selecting 'Add a Keyword for this Search'. Select a keyword (like the 'm' or 'gm' Jamie used) and add the query to your bookmarks.