Open Source vs Open System (read: WebCT Vista)

Open Source vs Open System (read: WebCT Vista)

by Paul Nijbakker -
Number of replies: 22

Hi all,

I am attending a WebCT user conference in Amsterdam in the Netherlands at the moment. One of the lectures (given, of course, by a WebCT staff member) was called "What's the difference between Open Source and Open Systems". That sounded interesting enough to me to miss other possibly interesting lectures.

What it it fact turned out to be was a sales presentation for WebCT Vista, which, as was claimed in the description of the lecture, "delivers many, if not all, of the percieved open source advantages" (my bolding). Apparently, they forgot the price advantage (Vista costs some 60.000 dollars now not counting the Oracle database and server required for it).

What I found funny and revealing was that the crux of the sales message was that Vista was good, because it could be combined with open source tools (when they had just, in so many words, said that open source programs are unreliable, badly documented, badly supported, etc.) The credo was to use open source within the open system (their bolding). Methinks that WebCT is feeling the pinch (Moodle, incidentally, being by far the most mentioned open source alternative during the ensuing discussion).

Oh, AND they said that in the US nobody talks about open source anymore (We just do that in "old" Europe). So, sorry you guys (Floyd, and others), but apparently you've been fooling us all along, and you don't actually live in the US smile

Greetings from Amsterdam,

Paul.

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In reply to Paul Nijbakker

Re: Open Source vs Open System (read: WebCT Vista)

by Eloy Lafuente (stronk7) -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Hi,

Sometimes, I go to this page http://moodle.org/sites/#US. I had some suspects, but now I'm sure. All that people are lying us !! smile And I would like to see that commercial product running without opensource software at all (i.e. perl opensource artistic license or linux or apache or ...) wide eyes

Anyway, one thing could be true in the conference:

"There are more dollars in some licences that people in the world" big grin


Sorry to everybody, but silly affirmations (I'm not sure if the "stupid" adjective is a suitable word, so I won't use it) need silly answers. Anyway, this is only my personal opinion. Sorry again. blush

Ciao, moodlers (and be careful with the liars) smile
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In reply to Paul Nijbakker

Re: Open Source vs Open System (read: WebCT Vista)

by Bryan Williams -

Paul,

Yes of course, we here in the US have totally abandonced open-source. And we have also given up the Internet, our guns and apple pie. 

Good feedback on WebCT, I'll certainly get some mileage out of this.

Bryan 

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In reply to Bryan Williams

Re: Open Source vs Open System (read: WebCT Vista)

by Paul Nijbakker -

Hi Bryan,

If you ever rue the decision: my old mother bakes great "open source" apple pie! big grin

Rgrds,

Paul.

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In reply to Paul Nijbakker

Re: Open Source vs Open System (read: WebCT Vista)

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Recipe, please!   smile
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In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Open Source vs Open System (read: WebCT Vista)

by Paul Nijbakker -

Sorry, I didn't notice the request earlier. Here goes:

Mom's Dutch apple pie with coconut crust (the recipe is totally free, the ingredients are not covered by the GPL smile)

Ingredients:

  • 240 grammes fine wheat flour
  • 180 grammes butter or margerine (cut in pieces)
  • 120 grammes of sugar
  • 1 egg
  • 1 teaspoon of vanillasugar

Knead these ingredientes into a smooth dough and use it to create the pie bottom in a suitabe tin (diameter 26 cm). You have to have dough covering the sides about 3-4 cm high!

Filling:

  • 3 to 4 soursweet apples, peeled, cored and cut in thin slices
  • about 150 grammes of raisins and/or currants
  • a sprinkling of sugar, cinneamon and grated coconut

Cover the pie bottom with the filling (put the coconut at the bottom so it can soak up some applejuices)

Crust:

  • 200 grammes of grated coconut (dried)
  • 25 grammes of sugar
  • 1 egg (split in white and yoke)
  • 1 teaspoon of vanillasugar

Stir the yoke with the sugar, vanillasugar and coconut until well-blended. Beat the eggwhite stiff and mix it through the coconut blend. Spread this evenly over the pie and press it onto the filling with a fork. Do not forget to make the crust connect with the dough rim on the sides!

Bake for about 45 minutes in an aoven at 200 degrees centigrade. The crust should be a nice golden brown.

Serve (preferably still warm) with chilled whipped cream (and coffee or tea on the side). Enjoy! approve

Rgrds, Paul.

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In reply to Paul Nijbakker

Re: Open Source vs Open System (read: WebCT Vista)

by Eloy Lafuente (stronk7) -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Opps, my English !! blush blush blush

perhaps, it's correct now:

"There are more dollars in some licences than people in the World"big grin


or, for that, non-existing, US people:

"There are more dollars in some licenses than people in the World"big grin


Ciao, I finish now. I promise it! smile
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In reply to Paul Nijbakker

Re: Open Source vs Open System (read: WebCT Vista)

by Paul Norrod -
After I learned that "open source" is taboo in the U.S., I immediately started modifying my Moodle site to mimic the superior functionality of WebCT. I started with that crude HTML editor we are forced to use in Moodle. I replaced it with a WebCT clone. What do you think? wink
Attachment SP32-20040217-155202.jpg
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In reply to Paul Norrod

Re: Open Source vs Open System (read: WebCT Vista)

by Bryan Williams -
Gosh, can you send me that hack?
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In reply to Bryan Williams

Re: Open Source vs Open System (read: WebCT Vista)

by Don Hinkelman -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers
A user-selectable word-wrap function! Amazing!! Sorry, Moodle, I'm outta here.... wink
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In reply to Bryan Williams

Re: Open Source vs Open System (read: WebCT Vista)

by Paul Norrod -
Bryan, no hack required - just take everything out of the Moodle html editor that is nice and you will have the WebCT editor  smile   Don, that is quite a feature - word wrap on or word wrap off - makes one wonder - why would you want it off in the first place?  Maybe I am missing something somewhere.

On a slightly serious note, I am currently taking a graduate online course which uses WebCT.  While WebCT is certainly not bad, the sparse (barren?) reply window in WebCT is (IMHO) representative of the overall lack of "user friendly features" in WebCT.

It is very interesting to be able to contrast Moodle and WebCT by virtue of the fact the I teach with one and (try to) learn using the other.  WebCT is just, well ..... plain and dull.  It is as if there were some unwritten rule that banned all nice features.  It DOES allow you to do the things you need to do as a student, but in a way that underwhelms you.

It is really amazing to see a product developed by one very determined person and a group of dedicated volunteers that one-ups a commercial product developed by who-knows how many people (perhaps also determined, but stifled by the corporate master plan?).

This is a strange observation, and perhaps it is part of the color scheme, but to me Moodle seems to have a "warmth" about it that makes it seem to me and my students that we are having class in my living room at home.  I suspect it is because of all of the neat little features we have - the nice html editor, the ability to attach pictures in posts and have them visible, the ability to add our own pictures to our profile, and more ... you get the idea.

WebCT seems so sterile and industrial-like.  It gets the job done, but does not do one more extra thing than just that - all for BIG $s per year surprise!
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In reply to Paul Norrod

Re: Open Source vs Open System (read: WebCT Vista)

by Paul Nijbakker -

Hi Paul,

You are right, aside from the WebCT bashing which at times gives great satisfaction, I have to admit that the environment has functioned satisfactorily for us for over four years, i.e. before Moodle came to fruition. Having said that, I agree (and so do my students) that Moodle has a far more gentle feel and greater ease of use and I am confident that it will eat away at the market share of WebCT, especially in Finland (if I can help it!). I believe that the continuing dissemination of Moodle is essential for the long term prospect of the environment and of Moodle.com.

Moodle spy at WebCT lion's den,

Paul.

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In reply to Paul Nijbakker

Re: Open Source vs Open System (read: WebCT Vista)

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
I actually don't see Moodle as really needing to eat away at existing market share - the market is expanding and a lot of people who were never in their business plans (and still aren't) are now getting into online learning.  Just look at the list of Moodle sites.

That said, it's obvious many people are also moving away from the big commercial systems, who became a bit fat and greedy with their dominance from the late 90's.

I think, as Free software increases the pressure on them, that the bigger players will be forced to start justifying their high costs and may even start innovating again, but there'll be plenty of room for everyone.
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In reply to Paul Norrod

Re: Open Source vs Open System (read: WebCT Vista)

by Ger Tielemans -

Of course has WebCT a longer developing history: When it started you could hardly do anything with a webbrowser. In these days it was one of the best.. (Many options from today where just not available in these days..)

Then you also get paying customers who force you to deliver upwards compatibility. Sooner or later Moodle will walk in that trap too...

You think not? You can see this already in the restrictions for the the main Moodle to stay compatible with the "out of the box" installations

Then you have the open source choice: stay with the mainstream (meanstream?) and saving on programming staff on your location or leave the mainstream and hack you a way with your ever growing staff through every new release.

I have a growing list of hacks:

  • local adaptation for the LDAP (not to avoid)
  • hack for the username parsing (choice)
  • hacks for the choice module to allow students choose workgroups, needed until I see a module that can do that better (choice)
  • my proud "jump to that day" calendar (choice)
  • my simple hack for "really hide" the hidden week sections (choice)
  • changes of the theme (choice)
  • making the short answerbox wider (choice)
  • changes on the frontpage (choice)
  • changes of the courseviews: only left menu, no menu's at all, (choice, I hesitate)
  • extra buttons (choice)
  • a button to print the course outline - including subsections - will be my next hack
  • and the try to do eWiki if Martin does not do it
  • Oh yes, I almost forgot: my wish to have a splitt screen with two modules in it, side by side..
  • ..
  • On this moment I have to start over again: reinstall the latest Moodle, install all the hacks, better documentate the hacks triest verrast blauw oog boos ogen wijd

     

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In reply to Paul Nijbakker

Re: Open Source vs Open System (read: WebCT Vista)

by Ger Tielemans -
I personally predict that within two years half of the secondary schools in The Netherlands will use Moodle, unless a better product comes by (CAN you imagine? a better product smile)
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In reply to Ger Tielemans

Re: Open Source vs Open System (read: WebCT Vista)

by koen roggemans -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Translators
Catholic secundary schools in Belgium experience a big pressure form VVKSO to use Blackboard. Unfortunately there is as far as I know no other organisation with big influence to promote an alternative triest. So I YELL about Moodle whenever I get the oportunity. The 4th of march is the next (official) time!
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In reply to koen roggemans

Re: Open Source vs Open System (read: WebCT Vista)

by Ger Tielemans -

Doesn't the sudden higher price of BlackBoard scare them off?

By the way, do you remember all the promisses from BlackBoard from early1998? Listen close Martin, you can learn from this..

They wrote that they would deliver a campus edition, following the standards for exchange. "So, I wrote to their leading designer in these days, if my coursesystem TeLeTOP uses the same standard, I can plug it in your campus shell?"

Then he wrote: "Well..., no..." and a new promiss: "not yet..."

It is now four years later.. Only other companies came with partial solutions, for example for a central CMS, completely missing in BlackBoard. (AND at least two Dutch Universities did neither like these other CMSs)

Selling was always their strong side, the fouders came from a consultant company:

Offering a website for free courses and then when several teachers are addicted...

What I didn't like also was that they sent me and others the names of our colleagues, who had also asked for informationWITHOUT ASKING US OUR AGREEMENT...

In the beginning they also wrote something like (I forgot the exact date and text): "At the end of 1999 a million user will use BlackBoard", or something like that.

At least for two years they could shout that. ( At the end of 1999 I did no longer follow their expedition: I was strongly disappointed because they did not rewrite and improve their student-made-code when the collected their first mountain of money with release 3 (?)

My biggest objection against BlackBoard is that it is not logical organised around the student tasks like Moodle is. (Neither is the Belgium look-a-like Claroline.)

Therefore students have to click unnessecary more often with their mouse. (and wait for the new screens)
And also for the teachersit is not well organised:
If you want to edit a resource, you have to leave your screen, then go to the edit area, then choose the right editor... Oops, why did I go to the editor??

Big Universities in The Netherlands alsochoose BlackBoard and I try not to laugh when they tell me about all their problems when they have to upgrade... (We had TeLeTOP, simple of elegance, as Moodle is now.)

Last point:

I think that BlackBoard offers them a big price reduction, the same happens with schoolorganisations in The Netherlands. Only.... First make the price unreasonably high and then offering Rabat... Who is fooling who??

Schools always don't have enough money, so let them buy servers, hire admins, have the feeling that they can control from above (Catholics always want that) and let them install FREE Moodle. The money they save that way, they can spent on buying extra multimedia content to hang in Moodle from Belgium Publishers (Good forBelgium economy also..)

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In reply to Ger Tielemans

Re: Open Source vs Open System (read: WebCT Vista)

by koen roggemans -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Translators

You're so right Ger:

About the price: belgian schools pay 7,5 euro/account and 30 euro/100MB webspace. for our situation that would make 5500 euro, wich could grow up to 10000 euro if every student would have an account. Now we 're paying 188 euro... I'm to stupid to understand how the can sell one account...

About the logical organisation of BB<->Moodle: that is one of my (many) major arguments pro Moodle. Claroline is as difficult to navigate as BB. Otherwise I would support that homegrown product.

About the upgrades: I'm everytime (and that's verry often) surprised about the upgrade-ease of Moodle. It becomes difficult when you mess arround with the code, but that is a personal choice: you don't have to do that, in fact, I'm glad I can. But it doesn't make life easyer.

About the Belgian economy: I've made the same thought too. If all the licencing money could go to developers and supportpeople, they could write a lot of good code, lessons and help teachers to do a good job teaching online. Now they just hire some code.

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In reply to koen roggemans

Re: Open Source vs Open System

by Eric Verhulst -
Koen, Ger

At the VLOD-CST conference in Ghent (from 9 till 11 march) I gave a presentation about our website www.sola.be, build with Moodle. SOLA is a small software company and developer of SOLA-R, a schooladministrative system. As such, we reach every week about 300 schools in Flanders.
I'm a strong promoter of OSS for collaboration and constructivism on E-learning and/or schooladministration systems.

I agree with your statement "My biggest objection against BlackBoard is that it is not logical organised around the student tasks like Moodle is." I always use mindmapping techniques at the design stage of a course. A mind map is topic centered, just as Moodle. So, after designing, the implementation goes very smooth with Moodle, which is not the case with function oriented systems (the most!).

The presentation can be found at our website. The first part is still based on instructional design notes from Bb, but the real implementation goes much better and cheaper with our Moodle!

Eric
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In reply to Eric Verhulst

Re: Open Source vs Open System

by Ger Tielemans -

Nice site, I will study it the next weeks, I like your idea of combining manual parts in courses, maybe teh Moodle doc-project should walk more in that direction....

By the way, we choose in august for Magister as our new schooladmin system and are now wondering how and why to integrate it with Moodle and some idea of a portfolio.

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