I urge you all to take a few minutes from your busy schedules and pop over to have a read of this enlightening article which casts a spotlight on Depression in the IT Professions.
John Allsopp's open musings on his own battle with the "black dog" would help us all to remember to stop and smell the roses once in a while.
http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2006/09/depression_in_t.html
Blessings
Brett
I think it's a bunch of nonsense. "Depression" is prevalent among everyone these days. In the US, 27% of people are being treated for some sort of mental illness and probably the vast majority have depression, or at least have convinced their doctors they do so that they can get drugs for it. Just because he knows one person in his field who committed suicide doesn't make it an epidemic.
I think also he fails to make a distinction between chemically based depression and living an isolated lifestyle BY CHOICE that leads to unhappiness. He's mixing up psychiatry and psychology.
I think also he fails to make a distinction between chemically based depression and living an isolated lifestyle BY CHOICE that leads to unhappiness. He's mixing up psychiatry and psychology.
A good read Brett. This comes as a nice juxtaposition to the recent post:
You Might be a Moodler if... where we can laugh at how much time we spend Moodling, but it's good to get a reminder that there is "life outside moodle.org". I'm sure that many developers/testers who contribute so much of there time here forget sometimes to make sure that they take care of themselves too!
And Nicole, there is no definitive line between "psychiatry and psychology". Neurophysiology, cognition, and behavior are all linked.
You Might be a Moodler if... where we can laugh at how much time we spend Moodling, but it's good to get a reminder that there is "life outside moodle.org". I'm sure that many developers/testers who contribute so much of there time here forget sometimes to make sure that they take care of themselves too!
And Nicole, there is no definitive line between "psychiatry and psychology". Neurophysiology, cognition, and behavior are all linked.
Ultimately psychology and psychiatry may be linked by a common cause (or not as this is not proven) that is yet little understood. But in terms of treatment and the purported causes, they have very different definitions and use very different methods. Of course Chardelle you know more about these things than the rest of us do probably.
And one thing that bothered me a bit about the original article is that the guy advises people to go to a general practicioner for treatment for depression. I'm married to a general practicioner and while they might be able to refer you to a psychiatrist, I wouldn't recommend putting your psychiatric treatment in the hands of anything but a psychiatrist because GPs simply don't know enough about this to be giving proper treatment. I've read some statistics that most general practicioners simply don't do a proper diagnosis of a patient before prescribing drugs and considering how powerful the effects of some of those drugs are and the high risk of suicide among depressed people I would say go directly to a specialist and not to mess around with GPs.
I do think some amount of spatial isolation is becoming more and more common today in any field due to the internet becoming more and more of a social medium to the exclusion of real life relationships. I know I feel isolated sometimes myself but I've tried to remedy it lately by getting in touch with some old friends I haven't talked to in years even if they are living on different continents. I was inspired to this by an old coworker from Egypt who is now in Australia who got in touch with me and having some nice chats with her online. Even if we can't meet in person, having the history of knowing eachother in person makes the discussions somewhat different and nicer in a way from talking to someone you have never met in real life.
And one thing that bothered me a bit about the original article is that the guy advises people to go to a general practicioner for treatment for depression. I'm married to a general practicioner and while they might be able to refer you to a psychiatrist, I wouldn't recommend putting your psychiatric treatment in the hands of anything but a psychiatrist because GPs simply don't know enough about this to be giving proper treatment. I've read some statistics that most general practicioners simply don't do a proper diagnosis of a patient before prescribing drugs and considering how powerful the effects of some of those drugs are and the high risk of suicide among depressed people I would say go directly to a specialist and not to mess around with GPs.
I do think some amount of spatial isolation is becoming more and more common today in any field due to the internet becoming more and more of a social medium to the exclusion of real life relationships. I know I feel isolated sometimes myself but I've tried to remedy it lately by getting in touch with some old friends I haven't talked to in years even if they are living on different continents. I was inspired to this by an old coworker from Egypt who is now in Australia who got in touch with me and having some nice chats with her online. Even if we can't meet in person, having the history of knowing eachother in person makes the discussions somewhat different and nicer in a way from talking to someone you have never met in real life.
Bless you Nicole for sharing your thoughts. 
Not sure how the system works in the US, however, in Australia we have an accute shortage of medical specialists especially in the phychiatric and psychologist fields. One is unable to just present themselves to a psyhc, as you have to have a referral from a GP in order to make an appointment. Not all GPs look at drugs in the first instance, (John doesnt make that distinction, however he is an IT professional and not a medical guru)
As a person who has recently come out of the thick fog of "unhappiness" I am glad that I chose to see my GP, who was able to refer me to a great psychologist and then psychiatrist. Through a combination of drugs, therapy and being able to refocus my mind on the positive (thanks to His Holiness, the Dalia Lama), I now know to take time out to enjoy my life and my family.
I know that women are able to discuss these sort of problems with their friends and less likely to bottle things up until the top blows off the bottle. From my experience, men are different, the inherited macho belief that men struggle on and grin and bear it has caused many men to get to the point of no return before they seek help.
For those of you who know the band, "Crowded House", you may recall that the happy-go-lucky drummer, Paul Hester was a guy everyone regarded as the life of the party. He hung himself while suffering from deep depression....no one knew! Its not an isolated case, its an unfortunate thing that people who may be suffering from "unhappiness" could read your post and think...."its a load of rubbish, perhaps I best just shut my trap."
If you haven't been to the Great Barrier Reef, its impossible to comprehend and enjoy the breathtaking beaty that lies under the surface of the ocean, no documentary can replace being there.....If you havent suffered from chronic depression, I guess its difficult to understand how one could feel so down and out. If you havent felt that feeling of dispair and unhappiness, then no article or point of view is going to explain it well enough for you to comprehend.
Brett
Not sure how the system works in the US, however, in Australia we have an accute shortage of medical specialists especially in the phychiatric and psychologist fields. One is unable to just present themselves to a psyhc, as you have to have a referral from a GP in order to make an appointment. Not all GPs look at drugs in the first instance, (John doesnt make that distinction, however he is an IT professional and not a medical guru)
As a person who has recently come out of the thick fog of "unhappiness" I am glad that I chose to see my GP, who was able to refer me to a great psychologist and then psychiatrist. Through a combination of drugs, therapy and being able to refocus my mind on the positive (thanks to His Holiness, the Dalia Lama), I now know to take time out to enjoy my life and my family.
I know that women are able to discuss these sort of problems with their friends and less likely to bottle things up until the top blows off the bottle. From my experience, men are different, the inherited macho belief that men struggle on and grin and bear it has caused many men to get to the point of no return before they seek help.
For those of you who know the band, "Crowded House", you may recall that the happy-go-lucky drummer, Paul Hester was a guy everyone regarded as the life of the party. He hung himself while suffering from deep depression....no one knew! Its not an isolated case, its an unfortunate thing that people who may be suffering from "unhappiness" could read your post and think...."its a load of rubbish, perhaps I best just shut my trap."
If you haven't been to the Great Barrier Reef, its impossible to comprehend and enjoy the breathtaking beaty that lies under the surface of the ocean, no documentary can replace being there.....If you havent suffered from chronic depression, I guess its difficult to understand how one could feel so down and out. If you havent felt that feeling of dispair and unhappiness, then no article or point of view is going to explain it well enough for you to comprehend.
Brett
Disclaimer: I'm not a clinical psychologist.
I think the reason that many go to a GP is that there is still, unfortunately, a stigma attached to seeing a mental health professional.
I agree completely that seeing an expert is the best choice, but if it comes down to seeing a GP or not getting help at all, the GP is probably better than nothing.
I think the reason that many go to a GP is that there is still, unfortunately, a stigma attached to seeing a mental health professional.
I agree completely that seeing an expert is the best choice, but if it comes down to seeing a GP or not getting help at all, the GP is probably better than nothing.
Well, I am a clinical psychologist . (To be clear, when I said there was no definitive line I was not talking about the professions, but rather physiology vs our behavior vs our thoughts, they each effect the other...) One reason to see a psychiatrist is that a good one will be able to prescribe the best drug or combination of drugs for your symptomology and genetic background, especially if you have already tried medication that has not worked well. Other than that, it depends on what you want, what is available, and what you can afford.
As for connecting, it is good to connect with friends, isn't it. I do feel that most people here are like good friends--I only wish we could all get together for FAC every now and then!!!
(For those not familar with FAC--it's getting together friday after work for a drink (Friday Afternoon Club--am I dating myself here? Does anyone use that term anymore?).
As for connecting, it is good to connect with friends, isn't it. I do feel that most people here are like good friends--I only wish we could all get together for FAC every now and then!!!
(For those not familar with FAC--it's getting together friday after work for a drink (Friday Afternoon Club--am I dating myself here? Does anyone use that term anymore?).
You just show up on Friday afternoon and look for the shiney, happy teachers talking much too loudly. 
-- Art
-- Art
Well, I am a clinical psychologist
You know, it's amazing how many people who, once they hear what I do, assume that I have some kind of expertise in mental health issues. Ask me to discourse on Vygotskyan or Piagetian theory, or how to transition a face-to-face course to an on-line or blended model while maintaining or (often) improving its quality, and you've got the right guy. Ask me for advice on family problems, and I'll have to pass.
The other misapprehension I get is people who think that I'm somehow involved with school guidance counseling.
I remember a long thread on another site about common employment-related misapprehensions. One fellow was a producer for a weekly half hour TV show. The one he often got was "Wow, it sure must be nice to only have to work a half hour per week."
You know, it's amazing how many people who, once they hear what I do, assume that I have some kind of expertise in mental health issues. Ask me to discourse on Vygotskyan or Piagetian theory, or how to transition a face-to-face course to an on-line or blended model while maintaining or (often) improving its quality, and you've got the right guy. Ask me for advice on family problems, and I'll have to pass.
The other misapprehension I get is people who think that I'm somehow involved with school guidance counseling.
I remember a long thread on another site about common employment-related misapprehensions. One fellow was a producer for a weekly half hour TV show. The one he often got was "Wow, it sure must be nice to only have to work a half hour per week."
John Allsopp found that he was denied insurance beacuse of his history of depression (despite lack of claims). It can also be a problem in job applications (particularly when you get to the medical check). Once i talked with a student who was pretty sure that a potential employer was going to know of his (controlled) condition once he completed the part that asked what drugs he took.
And all that is apart from the social stigma.
And all that is apart from the social stigma.
I didn't quite understand the kind of insurance he was trying to get, but I did once work with a woman who complained that her husband who was only 25 was stuck with his health insurance plan forever because he had depression and no other company would take him with that history.
When we got our health insurance I chose a plan that doesn't even cover mental health. I figured there was no point to it, as even if we had it, using it could hurt us over forever so I figure if we ever need mental health treatment we are better off just travelling to Egypt and getting it there because first of all the treatment there costs next to nothing and secondly we could keep it off our records.
In any case, I certainly would prefer an employee with a controlled mental illness than one not getting treatment at all.
When we got our health insurance I chose a plan that doesn't even cover mental health. I figured there was no point to it, as even if we had it, using it could hurt us over forever so I figure if we ever need mental health treatment we are better off just travelling to Egypt and getting it there because first of all the treatment there costs next to nothing and secondly we could keep it off our records.
In any case, I certainly would prefer an employee with a controlled mental illness than one not getting treatment at all.
This is what I love about the Moodle community. Perhaps it stems from our advocacy of open source, but it does seem that we address all sides of the issues that arise in this space. Thanks to Brett for bringing the issue of depression to our attention and to you, Nicole, for giving me some "big picture" context.
Hi Nicole and all,
I've read this thread and the original article with interest.
You say...
"I think it's a bunch of nonesense..."
I'm not sure what you are referring to here?
Is depression a bunch of nonesense? Your later comment...
"...or at least have convinced their doctors they do..."
suggests that you don't entirely believe that the people presenting themselves to their doctors, have depression. I don't think anyone would willingly take anti-depressants for any other reason than that they are depressed.
I realise that systems vary around the world, but in Australia, doctors use the dsm IV to determine the presence of depression and whilst it is something that can be hidden, relatively easily (personal experience tells me this), it's not something that is easy to invent, but why would you?
Depression is an extremely serious disease, with death rates from suicide of up to 20%. This is a higher mortality rate than many forms of cancer, yet some people seem to be so willing to dismiss it as "imagined".
I agree that one suicide is not an epidemic, but the author was merely asking a question, is it more prevalent in the ICT profession and if it is, is it a cause or a symptom? He states several times that he understands his evidence is anecdotal and is not a pedant about this idea, he is simply asking his audience, do you have any other data that I don't?
I agree with Chardelle's comment elsewhere, that the notion that mixing up psychiatry with psychology is false. We make the same distinction in Australia as Chardelle indicates, psychiatrists are doctors who can presribe medication, psychologist cannot. In addition, in Australia, psychiatrists have done their initial six years of medicine and then specialised into psychiatry which requires another five year of study, with the consequent placements in public hospitals. Commonly they will have done 12/13 years of study all up before they can be registered as psychiatrists.
Consequently, there is a shortage with some regions (such as the one I live in) with only one or two psychiatrists for a geographical area bigger than the England. With this in mind, the authors suggestion that a patient visit their GP, is a sensible one, because they won't be seeing a psychiatrist any time soon.
Again, in Australia, there is a very big campaign to better inform GP's of depression as an illness to ensure that there is appropriate treatment, a mix of drugs and talk therapy is seen as the best approach.
You also say...
"...fails to make a distinction between chemically based depression and living an isolated lifestyle BY CHOICE..."
By definition, if a person has depression, there will have been a change in their brain chemistry. Whether this is a product of external stimuli and events or because of something organic in the individual, is largely irrelevant, their brain chemistry has changed and they are suffering enormously, they need help and they are in danger of taking their own lives.
My last comment would be that, instead of blaming the victim/patient, perhaps we need to examine what it is about western civilisation that seems to be so toxic to good mental health. Depression sometimes appears to be the elephant sitting in the corner of the room...best..janet
I've read this thread and the original article with interest.
You say...
"I think it's a bunch of nonesense..."
I'm not sure what you are referring to here?
Is depression a bunch of nonesense? Your later comment...
"...or at least have convinced their doctors they do..."
suggests that you don't entirely believe that the people presenting themselves to their doctors, have depression. I don't think anyone would willingly take anti-depressants for any other reason than that they are depressed.
I realise that systems vary around the world, but in Australia, doctors use the dsm IV to determine the presence of depression and whilst it is something that can be hidden, relatively easily (personal experience tells me this), it's not something that is easy to invent, but why would you?
Depression is an extremely serious disease, with death rates from suicide of up to 20%. This is a higher mortality rate than many forms of cancer, yet some people seem to be so willing to dismiss it as "imagined".
I agree that one suicide is not an epidemic, but the author was merely asking a question, is it more prevalent in the ICT profession and if it is, is it a cause or a symptom? He states several times that he understands his evidence is anecdotal and is not a pedant about this idea, he is simply asking his audience, do you have any other data that I don't?
I agree with Chardelle's comment elsewhere, that the notion that mixing up psychiatry with psychology is false. We make the same distinction in Australia as Chardelle indicates, psychiatrists are doctors who can presribe medication, psychologist cannot. In addition, in Australia, psychiatrists have done their initial six years of medicine and then specialised into psychiatry which requires another five year of study, with the consequent placements in public hospitals. Commonly they will have done 12/13 years of study all up before they can be registered as psychiatrists.
Consequently, there is a shortage with some regions (such as the one I live in) with only one or two psychiatrists for a geographical area bigger than the England. With this in mind, the authors suggestion that a patient visit their GP, is a sensible one, because they won't be seeing a psychiatrist any time soon.
Again, in Australia, there is a very big campaign to better inform GP's of depression as an illness to ensure that there is appropriate treatment, a mix of drugs and talk therapy is seen as the best approach.
You also say...
"...fails to make a distinction between chemically based depression and living an isolated lifestyle BY CHOICE..."
By definition, if a person has depression, there will have been a change in their brain chemistry. Whether this is a product of external stimuli and events or because of something organic in the individual, is largely irrelevant, their brain chemistry has changed and they are suffering enormously, they need help and they are in danger of taking their own lives.
My last comment would be that, instead of blaming the victim/patient, perhaps we need to examine what it is about western civilisation that seems to be so toxic to good mental health. Depression sometimes appears to be the elephant sitting in the corner of the room...best..janet
Thanks for the lecture and making a lot of false assumptions about what I meant. My comment about it being nonsense was that IT professions don't have a corner on depression. My point was simply that others have the same problems as well.
And yes, I do think it is wrong for people to go to their doctors, tell them what they think is wrong with oneself, and then expect the doctor to automatically agree with the diagnosis and prescribe a drug for it (often a drug that the patient saw on a tv advertisement and suggested). It's the doctor's job to do the diagnosis not the patient's but if you read about this you will find a lot of doctors (GPs) don't follow proper diagnostic procedures with depression pill-seekers. And believe me, a lot more people go to their doctor than you would think self-diagnosing themselves. The internet makes it quite easy to think one can self-diagnose oneself with all the information available out there but if one doesn't have the proper training in differential diagnosis and is aware of all the possibilities then it doesn't work.
We live in a world today where people want to place the blame for their problems elsewhere. For a lot of people, it's easier to pop a pill for "depression" (or hire a lawyer and sue someone) than it is to work on improving one's relationship with one's spouse, changing jobs to get away from an unpleasant workplace, or actually taking action oneself to change one's situation to escape depression that is linked to that situation. And then there are people who suffer from depression that may not be helped simply by changing one's situation and that is what needs medication.
And yes, I do think it is wrong for people to go to their doctors, tell them what they think is wrong with oneself, and then expect the doctor to automatically agree with the diagnosis and prescribe a drug for it (often a drug that the patient saw on a tv advertisement and suggested). It's the doctor's job to do the diagnosis not the patient's but if you read about this you will find a lot of doctors (GPs) don't follow proper diagnostic procedures with depression pill-seekers. And believe me, a lot more people go to their doctor than you would think self-diagnosing themselves. The internet makes it quite easy to think one can self-diagnose oneself with all the information available out there but if one doesn't have the proper training in differential diagnosis and is aware of all the possibilities then it doesn't work.
We live in a world today where people want to place the blame for their problems elsewhere. For a lot of people, it's easier to pop a pill for "depression" (or hire a lawyer and sue someone) than it is to work on improving one's relationship with one's spouse, changing jobs to get away from an unpleasant workplace, or actually taking action oneself to change one's situation to escape depression that is linked to that situation. And then there are people who suffer from depression that may not be helped simply by changing one's situation and that is what needs medication.
Nicole,
Can you tell me where John Allsopp states IT professionals have a corner on depression? Isn't he just speaking as a person who is a.) an IT professional and b.)someone who has been treated for the disease? He also states:
Speaking from my own experience with "unhappiness" (depression was the doctors term for my state of unwellness, not something I thought....yeah, I should try that!)
It was 12 months before I could bring myself to follow the doc's advice and try something chemical to help bring my brain into balance..... the stigma of the depression label was embarrassing to say the least. I'm so glad I did follow the advice of my good GP. As Janet explained in her post.....in our country we cant just book into a psychiatrist on a whim, there just arent enough of them to go around.
On another note, not all countries in this world have the liberal advertising laws of the US...we in Aus don't have our televisions bombarded by the American pharmaceutical companies sales pitch for the latest wonder drug. Neither are all our GPs brainless zombies at the beck and call of Pheizer and the like. Its good to know we all have choices.
I guess I could go on, but, really, what's the point? This article at Slashdot, delves into the question of depression in the IT professions futher. Perhaps all of the hundreds of posters there are also misguided like John??
http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/18/1357256&tid=191&tid=95&tid=4
Anyways, the original article had some great links to internet sites with a vast array of information for anyone wishing to learn more. i've included this list below. Whether it's one IT professional or thousands, if the advice helps just one, then it was worth me posting it here. We all have the option to ignore such posts if we feel it is such rubbish.
Best Wishes to all
Brett
Can you tell me where John Allsopp states IT professionals have a corner on depression? Isn't he just speaking as a person who is a.) an IT professional and b.)someone who has been treated for the disease? He also states:
While it is easy, and dangerous, to stereotype IT professionals
("geeks") and the kinds of personality that appear to be predisposed to
depression, qualities we tend to associate with many IT professionals
like obsessiveness, very high standards, social anxiety, creativity,
coupled with stressful life circumstances (extremely long hours,
arbitrary deadlines, lack of control over many variables of the work
environment, lack of job security) seem to be a recipe for disaster
when it comes to depression.
Speaking from my own experience with "unhappiness" (depression was the doctors term for my state of unwellness, not something I thought....yeah, I should try that!)
It was 12 months before I could bring myself to follow the doc's advice and try something chemical to help bring my brain into balance..... the stigma of the depression label was embarrassing to say the least. I'm so glad I did follow the advice of my good GP. As Janet explained in her post.....in our country we cant just book into a psychiatrist on a whim, there just arent enough of them to go around.
On another note, not all countries in this world have the liberal advertising laws of the US...we in Aus don't have our televisions bombarded by the American pharmaceutical companies sales pitch for the latest wonder drug. Neither are all our GPs brainless zombies at the beck and call of Pheizer and the like. Its good to know we all have choices.
I guess I could go on, but, really, what's the point?
http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/18/1357256&tid=191&tid=95&tid=4
Anyways, the original article had some great links to internet sites with a vast array of information for anyone wishing to learn more. i've included this list below. Whether it's one IT professional or thousands, if the advice helps just one, then it was worth me posting it here. We all have the option to ignore such posts if we feel it is such rubbish.
Best Wishes to all
Brett
General Sites about depression
http://www.beyondblue.org.au/index.aspx?link_id=1.3 (Not for Profit organization in Australia)
http://www.depression.com/ (associated with Pharmaceutical company Glaxo Smith Kline)
http://depression.about.com/ Comprehensive links about depression, diagnosis, treatment and much more
http://depressionet.com.au
http://www.blackdoginstitute.org.au/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_depression
Symptoms, signs and causes
http://www.patienthealthinternational.com/article/501583.aspx
http://www.thedoctorwillseeyounow.com/articles/behavior/depressn_5/
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Demystifying_Depression (detailed if somewhat controversial ideas of Depression, worth a read)
Self Testing (better for understanding depression rather than a definitive diagnosis)
http://www.healthyplace.com/site/tests/psychological.asp#depression
http://www.blackdoginstitute.org.au/surveys/Temperament/index.html
Forums, and places to discuss
http://www.beyondblue.org.au/index.aspx?link_id=61
http://depression.about.com/mpboards.htm
IT and Depression
http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/18/1357256&tid=191&tid=95&tid=4
Some sites about Drugs and Depression
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_depression#Medication
http://www.wingofmadness.com/links/medica.htm
Helping someone with depression
http://depressionet.com.au/famfr/wtd.html
It was 12 months before I could bring myself to follow the doc's advice and try something chemical to help bring my brain into balance..... the stigma of the depression label was embarrassing to say the least.
I'm going to ask the same question I asked before and never got the answer to: How would anyone know you suffered from depression if you didn't tell them? If it is something private then it isn't a social stigma, it's a personal issue. You made a choice-you preferred to be depressed than to admit to yourself you were depressed and do something to get rid of it.
Most people at some point in their life neglect a medical condition out of pride or vanity or whatever. For example, I once had a co-worker who had a problem with his ticket on the subway and rather than talk to a station attendant to get out he just climbed a 2 meter wall and jumped off to the other side. He showed up the next day at work limping and refusing to tell us why, failing to have gotten his foot x-rayed, and continued limping for months, putting on a lot of weight as a result too, but it wasn't until months later that he would admit to me what had happened and told me he had never gotten it checked. But that was still his choice to neglect it.
LIfe is full of choices. Working in IT is a choice as well. If you believe it is such a depressing field, then find another one to work in. But I think you will find that the grass isn't always greener on the other side and that people are depressed in other fields as well. I've known a number of people who suffered from depression and none of them worked in IT-teachers, writers, archaeologists, housewives...
Once again, bless you Nicole for you wise and insightful outlook on the world.
You don't know the first thing about me, however you are jumping to conclusions that this is the only field I have worked in..... I was an aircraft technician for 15 years before changing occupations. I've got 5 children and a wife.....they are the ones who forced me to take notice of my mood swings and associated issues, which were later labeled as depression. It never occurred to me that there was anything wrong, so how could I tell anyone about it that state of ignorance? I'm not ashamed of seeking help and now not at all embarrassed about admitting I had a problem.
Not sure if that answers your question, but also don't really care. This is after all the social forum for all things unrelated to moodle, and I wasn't aware it would be patrolled by the thought police with such vigour Perhaps I'll think twice about sharing in this forum in the future.
I'm not going to bother with continuing to spend energy on this fruitless discussion... once again, wonderful that we all have choices!
Blessings!
Brett
You don't know the first thing about me, however you are jumping to conclusions that this is the only field I have worked in..... I was an aircraft technician for 15 years before changing occupations. I've got 5 children and a wife.....they are the ones who forced me to take notice of my mood swings and associated issues, which were later labeled as depression. It never occurred to me that there was anything wrong, so how could I tell anyone about it that state of ignorance? I'm not ashamed of seeking help and now not at all embarrassed about admitting I had a problem.
Not sure if that answers your question, but also don't really care. This is after all the social forum for all things unrelated to moodle, and I wasn't aware it would be patrolled by the thought police with such vigour
I'm not going to bother with continuing to spend energy on this fruitless discussion... once again, wonderful that we all have choices!
Blessings!
Brett
When I said "you" I was speaking in general, and more specifically about the post you linked to, not your case. You are right, I don't know your case, all I was responding to was what you told me about it. It was a theoretical and serious question. Everyone talks about stigma and how it stops people from seeking treatment but last time I checked the doctor-patient relationship is supposed to be a confidential one and so I don't understand where stigma can come into play if one keeps one's own medical information secret. While it may be all the rage today to post the details of one's personal life on the internet, it still isn't a requirement, so where is the unavoidable stigma? It's a genuine question (and I asked it of Tony earlier in this discussion so it wasn't directed at you personally) and you responded with remarks that are punctuated with smiley faces that are really just a way of pretending to hide your sarcasm.
Dear Brett,
I thank you also for having the courage to share your experience with depression. It is my ongoing experience, that the people who have a diagnosis are not the ones that we have to worry about. They (you/me) have taken responsibility for their (our) situations and are seeking appropriate treatment. Of all the people that society may have to worry about, they (we) are not among them. Yet, because we have a diagnosis, we are more like to face discrimination and prejudice.
On the other hand, those who don't have a diagnosis, yet apparently should have, are often the ones who cause the most angst and upset, sometimes even tragedy. Take for instance the appalling crime committed today in Montreal:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20409736-2,00.html
I imagine this young man probably needed help and perhaps if he had gotten it, there would not now be people dead and critically injured.
What contribution did/does the stigma and palpable anger that those with a psychiatric disorder experience, have in making people decide not to receive treatment, with possible catastrophic consequences?
On a like note, those who commit suicide without ever receiving treatment, what impact did stigma, discrimination and prejudice have in them not seeking help? ..best..janet
I thank you also for having the courage to share your experience with depression. It is my ongoing experience, that the people who have a diagnosis are not the ones that we have to worry about. They (you/me) have taken responsibility for their (our) situations and are seeking appropriate treatment. Of all the people that society may have to worry about, they (we) are not among them. Yet, because we have a diagnosis, we are more like to face discrimination and prejudice.
On the other hand, those who don't have a diagnosis, yet apparently should have, are often the ones who cause the most angst and upset, sometimes even tragedy. Take for instance the appalling crime committed today in Montreal:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20409736-2,00.html
I imagine this young man probably needed help and perhaps if he had gotten it, there would not now be people dead and critically injured.
What contribution did/does the stigma and palpable anger that those with a psychiatric disorder experience, have in making people decide not to receive treatment, with possible catastrophic consequences?
On a like note, those who commit suicide without ever receiving treatment, what impact did stigma, discrimination and prejudice have in them not seeking help? ..best..janet
N:
Physical: I will answer your question from personal experience. I asked that question to my wife just to get some non-subjective feedback and she confirmed what I say to you. I slept about 22 hours a day. Got up for breakfast, ate and GUZZLED coffee. Went back to sleep until noon, ate, drank more coffee, and then went back to sleep. Repeat for supper and then crash on the couch until time for bed. Repeat daily.
Attitude: Extreme negativity and hopelessness. Cannot think or remember and don't really care! Life is a black pit with no way out...doom, gloom are constant thoughts. There are NO joys in the pit. Nothing is fun or exciting, not even sex! There is no sunlight only darkness.
Caring, hope, optimism = ZERO, ZIP, NADA.
Now I can often see these things in others and spot them after a little interaction. I see it in posture and voice.
And yes, choices are critical in setting us up, but once you find yourself in the pit there are no more choices . You may not even be motivated to grab hold of a rope to let someone drag you out. This is when pills and intervention/counseling both are important and served me well. Otherwise, I would have take the 45 caliber solution.
Sorry to be so graphic.
BTW, I loved your website design.
John
Dear Brett,
I applaud your courage, your thoughtfulness , and your professionalism for the posting on depression that include so many very useful links , that I’m sure will be accessed by many of us , fighting the ‘Black Dog’ (I call mine the ‘black hole’ ) , or, indeed knowing of family members or friends that are suffering , from something we ‘know not what’ , but are concerned, and have no idea where to go for help!
Getting help in time, could be the difference between life and death for our loved ones , or ourselves!
This Forum , is absolutely, for anything that is not necessarily Moodle related, but, could be of interest to someone ,in the thousands of participants . If , by your post, you have made someone feel they are not alone in their struggle against depression , you have succeeded admirably!
I have had a few ‘stouches’ with dear Nicole over the years in this forum , don’t be too perturbed with Nicole’s seemingly unfeeling attitude, guess it comes with studying ancient Egyptology !! One for you Nicole !!
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Depression throughout history
Even in ancient times depression was recognized as an illness. The Ebers Papyrus, one of the world's oldest medical documents from ancient <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Egypt, describes a condition of severe despondency that is equivalent to our modern definition of depression. There are references to depression in the book of Samuel of the Old Testament. Hippocratic writings of the fourth century describe "melancholy" as a condition thought to arise from an imbalance in the humors of the body. And, in addition to many references to depression in literature, many notable philosophers, scientists, politicians, actors and writers have struggled with periods of depression in their lives.
<?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" />
Last updated: 4/9/99
Ours Brett , and Janet, are a little more in this millennium . In my ‘black hole’ I struggle continually ,to deal with the suicide of someone that meant everything to me and my children , and the resultant ‘depression’ I suffer, but with help, ‘manage’
God bless , (whoever is your God) and always care for each other 
I have had a few ‘stouches’ with dear Nicole over the years in this forum , don’t be too perturbed with Nicole’s seemingly unfeeling attitude, guess it comes with studying ancient Egyptology !! One for you Nicole !!
Ahh, yes, like the time you accused me of being a miserly cheapskate for not wanting to pay when the real problem was that Paypal security rules had been changed and I could no longer log into my Paypal account in Egypt? I would have forgotten that if you hadn't reminded me...
You probably have never met anyone in my profession so please don't make assumptions. Each of us has our own experiences in life and my experiences with depression and depressed people, and yes even suicidal people, which have nothing to do with my profession, are numerous and they shape how I view the issue. Just because I don't agree with everyone here doesn't mean I am "unfeeling." I just "feel" different about this issue.
And how I feel is that it is self-destructive to put personal information about oneself on the internet that might cause problems for oneself. And I find it completely disrespectful of one's loved ones to put their psychiatric history on the internet without their explicit permission. A doctor must respect their privacy and so why don't family members? I "feel" for the people who could be hurt by these actions.
Ahh, yes, like the time you accused me of being a miserly cheapskate for not wanting to pay when the real problem was that Paypal security rules had been changed and I could no longer log into my Paypal account in Egypt? I would have forgotten that if you hadn't reminded me...
You probably have never met anyone in my profession so please don't make assumptions. Each of us has our own experiences in life and my experiences with depression and depressed people, and yes even suicidal people, which have nothing to do with my profession, are numerous and they shape how I view the issue. Just because I don't agree with everyone here doesn't mean I am "unfeeling." I just "feel" different about this issue.
And how I feel is that it is self-destructive to put personal information about oneself on the internet that might cause problems for oneself. And I find it completely disrespectful of one's loved ones to put their psychiatric history on the internet without their explicit permission. A doctor must respect their privacy and so why don't family members? I "feel" for the people who could be hurt by these actions.
Dear Nicole,
Sadly I was not able to convey 'in words' in this forum to you, , the understanding I have gained from your posts over the years , which at times seem quite outrageous , to some , however, to those of us that 'know you" from your 'posts' , we appreciate your passion , and your integrity for the things you beleive in !!
Nicole, please , just try and imagine what it means for guys like Brett , to share problems, and in so doing, really help others !!
There really is a HUGE problem out there , that needs to be addressed by all ,thinking, and caring ,human beings .
Luv
Joycey
But what if a future employer decides not to hire him because he sees such a post? Nowadays, employers do Google your name and do make decisions on hirings based on things the people say about themselves on the internet. Equally numerous in this thread are the instances of discrimination against people suffering from such illnesses and knowing there is such discrimination it seems to me that it is prudent self-protection not to share such information. I'm not saying don't share it if you want to, but do so without identifying oneself or do it in a more private setting. That's why Chardelle offered to set up a more private space to discuss these matters. She found it rather alarming that people were posting such information publicly.
Dear Joyce,
Thankyou! Your kind words mean a great deal to me.
I did have a few paragraphs of thoughts added here, however, on re-reading, I decided against posting to avoid a continuation of pointless arguments back and forth. Sometimes its best to agree to disagree. The situation reminds me somewhat of the nurse in One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest! She didn't have a clue about mental illness either.
I'm sorry to hear of your daily struggle with the loss of a loved one.
Best wishes to you and your children. (thats a heart-felt smiley, not a sarcastic one!)
Brett
Thankyou! Your kind words mean a great deal to me.
I did have a few paragraphs of thoughts added here, however, on re-reading, I decided against posting to avoid a continuation of pointless arguments back and forth. Sometimes its best to agree to disagree. The situation reminds me somewhat of the nurse in One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest! She didn't have a clue about mental illness either.
I'm sorry to hear of your daily struggle with the loss of a loved one.
Best wishes to you and your children.
Brett
What I know about mental illness is no one's business but my own. Just because I do not choose to reveal private information to back up my arguments does not mean I'm an ignoramus...In fact, I think if you knew the things I choose not to reveal you would all be ashamed by the things you have said about me. But I will not be bullied into revealing things it is not my right to reveal simply to impress you with my knowledge and experience with these matters. More than enough said...
Dear Nicole,
it distresses me to have you say...
...I will not be bullied...
I really don't think anyone wants you to reveal anything that you are not comfortable with, that is not the function of this forum, nor do I think that anyone here requires it.
In case it needs clarification, my position is that I am very public about my psychiatrict disorder and it's causes (which I haven't gone into detail here, because it's not appropriate). I understand the disadvantage that this causes me, but for me, that goes with the territory. Plus, I do have a strategy, dazzle them with my brilliance and then confound them by letting them know I have a psychiatrict disorder. Believe me, it both confounds and baffles people. I get respones like...
"...but your so bright and intelligent..."
"...but you never seem miserable..."
"...but I've never felt any danger with you..."
yada, yada, yada.... all the common misconceptions and prejudices emerge, that's stigma.
Taking the discussion back to its roots and the article that produced this discussion, a guy with a psychiatric disorder was speculating about the possible link between mental illness and working in the ICT industry. I'm not sure we have any empirical data either way, but the question is worth asking and pursuing..best..janet
it distresses me to have you say...
...I will not be bullied...
I really don't think anyone wants you to reveal anything that you are not comfortable with, that is not the function of this forum, nor do I think that anyone here requires it.
In case it needs clarification, my position is that I am very public about my psychiatrict disorder and it's causes (which I haven't gone into detail here, because it's not appropriate). I understand the disadvantage that this causes me, but for me, that goes with the territory. Plus, I do have a strategy, dazzle them with my brilliance and then confound them by letting them know I have a psychiatrict disorder. Believe me, it both confounds and baffles people. I get respones like...
"...but your so bright and intelligent..."
"...but you never seem miserable..."
"...but I've never felt any danger with you..."
yada, yada, yada.... all the common misconceptions and prejudices emerge, that's stigma.
Taking the discussion back to its roots and the article that produced this discussion, a guy with a psychiatric disorder was speculating about the possible link between mental illness and working in the ICT industry. I'm not sure we have any empirical data either way, but the question is worth asking and pursuing..best..janet
Bullying in the sense that the only way I could defend myself against these suggestions I am ignorant would be to reveal things I don't choose to reveal, so I can't defend myself but people continue to call me ignorant.
Anyway, returning to the original article, my simple point was that if he believes truly that his depression is linked to his profession rather than it being a medical illness, then it seems to me irresponsible he would suggest drugs are the solution, rather than a career change. What's the difference between solving your perceived career problems with Prozac or alcohol or ecstasy or crack cocaine? If he had said he considered this to be a medical problem for which he was taking medication, I would have been behind him 100%. If he had said he considered this to be a career problem, so he was changing careers, I would have been behind him 100% as well. But drugs are not the answer for social problems, which is what he is classifying his depression as when he blames it on his profession. It's inconsistent treatment for the problem.
Anyway, returning to the original article, my simple point was that if he believes truly that his depression is linked to his profession rather than it being a medical illness, then it seems to me irresponsible he would suggest drugs are the solution, rather than a career change. What's the difference between solving your perceived career problems with Prozac or alcohol or ecstasy or crack cocaine? If he had said he considered this to be a medical problem for which he was taking medication, I would have been behind him 100%. If he had said he considered this to be a career problem, so he was changing careers, I would have been behind him 100% as well. But drugs are not the answer for social problems, which is what he is classifying his depression as when he blames it on his profession. It's inconsistent treatment for the problem.
>>Sometimes , its great to just have someone to 'talk to '
This is definitely true, Joyce.
I've created a forum here for discussing issues related to emotional wellbeing. You'll need to register an account on the site, this course is open to anyone registered, although the site is not open to google. I've also done a quick hack to the forum so that you can post anonymously if you wish.
This is definitely true, Joyce.
I've created a forum here for discussing issues related to emotional wellbeing. You'll need to register an account on the site, this course is open to anyone registered, although the site is not open to google. I've also done a quick hack to the forum so that you can post anonymously if you wish.
Dear Nicole,
thank you for clarifying what it was that you considered nonesense. I agree, depression knows no limits, race, creed, social status, gender, etc provide no safe haven from depression, it is quite insidious.
On the subject of doctors and patients.
You'll note that I was careful to speak only of my experience in Australia, hence my care in explaining the process for becoming a psychiatrist. I know the process for qualifiication differs from country to country.
Brett has already mentioned the limits on pharmaceutical companies advertising to the general public. In the main, your average Australian patient has probably not heard of most of the medications used to treat depression, or any other psychiatric disorder, for that matter.
In addition, because we opperate with the PBS (Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme) there are strict controls on what doctors can prescribe. For instance, their are drugs/medications that only psychiatrists can write scripts for and still other drugs that the doctor/psychiatrist must get an authorisation for before they can write a script. The authorisation process involves calling a government department, the doctor/psych gives their unique identifying number, then gives the patients unique indentifying number and asks for a script for whatever medication has this type of control. The doctor then has to state what the diagnosis is. With some medications, they can only be prescribed with particular diagnosis and doctors know that the auditing process is quite rigorous, so that inventing maladies will get them in strife.
This may seem incredibly bureaucratic, but since the PBS means that I end up paying AU$29.80 for a drug that could cost thousands of dollars, then the controls are warranted.
Consequently, here in Australia, it would be really uncommon for anyone to:
Regarding people failing to take responsibility.
From my perspective, seeking help for a problem that one can't manage oneself, is clear evidence that the person is taking responsibility. If you are familiar at all with AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) step one is owning the problem, until that happens, change won't..best..janet
thank you for clarifying what it was that you considered nonesense. I agree, depression knows no limits, race, creed, social status, gender, etc provide no safe haven from depression, it is quite insidious.
On the subject of doctors and patients.
You'll note that I was careful to speak only of my experience in Australia, hence my care in explaining the process for becoming a psychiatrist. I know the process for qualifiication differs from country to country.
Brett has already mentioned the limits on pharmaceutical companies advertising to the general public. In the main, your average Australian patient has probably not heard of most of the medications used to treat depression, or any other psychiatric disorder, for that matter.
In addition, because we opperate with the PBS (Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme) there are strict controls on what doctors can prescribe. For instance, their are drugs/medications that only psychiatrists can write scripts for and still other drugs that the doctor/psychiatrist must get an authorisation for before they can write a script. The authorisation process involves calling a government department, the doctor/psych gives their unique identifying number, then gives the patients unique indentifying number and asks for a script for whatever medication has this type of control. The doctor then has to state what the diagnosis is. With some medications, they can only be prescribed with particular diagnosis and doctors know that the auditing process is quite rigorous, so that inventing maladies will get them in strife.
This may seem incredibly bureaucratic, but since the PBS means that I end up paying AU$29.80 for a drug that could cost thousands of dollars, then the controls are warranted.
Consequently, here in Australia, it would be really uncommon for anyone to:
- Nominate what medication they wanted
- Be diagnosed with something that they didn't have
Regarding people failing to take responsibility.
From my perspective, seeking help for a problem that one can't manage oneself, is clear evidence that the person is taking responsibility. If you are familiar at all with AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) step one is owning the problem, until that happens, change won't..best..janet
In the US, patients know the names of the popular prescription drugs because in recent years they have been allowed to advertise on TV. I was visiting my parents and we were watching the national nightly news and they said, see, only old people watch the news because it was one old-person type of drug after another being advertised in the commercials-in fact there were no commercials whatsoever for anything else. If you watch tv in the daytime they assume everyone is sitting home unemployed and all the commercials are for career colleges and lawyers who advertise bankruptcy services and sevices to sue others for car accidents and the like.
In Egypt, no prescriptions are required (except for a few things, like tranquilizers, which requires a prescription from a psychiatrist), but people talk to eachother about their drugs and often people self-diagnose based on what their friends tell them and go straight to the pharmacy for drugs or they go to the doctor and announce, "I have an ulcer, give me drug xyz" because that is what one of their friends was given for similar symptoms.
In Egypt, no prescriptions are required (except for a few things, like tranquilizers, which requires a prescription from a psychiatrist), but people talk to eachother about their drugs and often people self-diagnose based on what their friends tell them and go straight to the pharmacy for drugs or they go to the doctor and announce, "I have an ulcer, give me drug xyz" because that is what one of their friends was given for similar symptoms.
Dear Nicole,
the self-diagnosis that you write of is not that common in Australia. You make it sound like there is a high level of hypochondria, is that the case?
I know that occasionally someone will describe to me how they or someone they know is feeling/behaving and I might say, "...you know, that could be depression, have you/they considered seeing your GP about it?" However, this is pretty uncommon and I suspect people feel comfortable talking to me about their mood/symptoms because most people know that I'm pretty well "out there" when it comes to mental illness.
The phenomenon that you describe is more common in psychiatric units, but then I guess that's understandable. People share information about symptoms and medication, unfortunately, their interest in medication is often driven by a desire to kill themselves, so they are on a fact finding mission...best..janet
the self-diagnosis that you write of is not that common in Australia. You make it sound like there is a high level of hypochondria, is that the case?
I know that occasionally someone will describe to me how they or someone they know is feeling/behaving and I might say, "...you know, that could be depression, have you/they considered seeing your GP about it?" However, this is pretty uncommon and I suspect people feel comfortable talking to me about their mood/symptoms because most people know that I'm pretty well "out there" when it comes to mental illness.
The phenomenon that you describe is more common in psychiatric units, but then I guess that's understandable. People share information about symptoms and medication, unfortunately, their interest in medication is often driven by a desire to kill themselves, so they are on a fact finding mission...best..janet
I would recommend the book "Undoing Perpetual Stress" by Dr. Richard O'Connor. It is not a quick read but is very comprehensive, giving explanations and useful suggestions for both sufferers and practitioners alike. It is based on both good research and his experience working with people.
For example, he gives a very good explanation of why it is both in your head and NOT in your head. His discussion puts that conundrum into perspective. You hafta read it to understand it so I'll stop with that.
John
John--Thanks for the reference. I have been doing a little reading myself about this problem because of the prevalence of depression and other mental illnesses in my family. The reading I have done concurs with your assessment: it is indeed a conundrum.
That is also why, Nicole, I sympathize with your question: how much is a choice and how much is mental/chemical/physical? I've been trying for 34+ years to figure out why my dad occasionally prefers (as it seems to those of us not suffering from this or a similar disease) to sleep in his car in way stations, to jump from job to job, forfeiting often on bills, getting kicked out of places he's living---the list goes on and on. His symptoms are much more complex than depression alone, but I now understand depression a bit better having observed his struggles and read more about deression and mental illness in general. Sometimes it is a choice. Sometimes it isn't. And to tell you the truth, I'm too close to always be able to tell, but I can tell you that it's much more complicated of a decision-making process for him than it is for you and I. Many of the decision-making connections in our brains that we take for granted are stilted or turned off--or even not there for some who suffer. Their brains try to compensate, but because of the missing wiring, the picture of reality they get is not the one we get. The ability to weigh consequences and ramifications of decisions is completely distorted. Does this make more sense?
Your point regarding the fact that this issue strikes many a profession is well-taken, but I also find it interesting that many of the professions you name in your list have elements of isolation in their daily practice. Which leads to another part of the conundrum: From my reading I've learned how incredibly difficult it can be to carry on social interactions for those who suffer from mental illnesses, particularly depression (and in my dad's case, likely also schizophrenia). Sooo...my question the past few years as I try to support my relatives in their struggle has been this: How much do they isolate themselves on purpose, and to what extent does this isolation exacerbate their condition?
I find it also interesting that you mention that depression is on the rise in the US--as it is. Have long been wondering if it may be a side-effect of an ever-increasing ability for all of us to hole up in our various electronic universes--on our laptops, with our ipods, in the same house with loved ones in separate rooms on different computers. We are often isolating ourselves without really thinking about it. Not that I have anything against any of these devices, but I have to say that what attracted me to Moodle first was the immediate sense that it would allow for a greater level of social interaction--a way to perhaps combat the otherwise isolating effects of technology's impact. It, of course, all depends upon how you use it, but I think it has greater potential than other simple "post and retreat" forums/programs/formats.
I have enjoyed the free and generous discussions here at Moodle.org, and I think the open environment does much to promote a level of "real" discussion not found in many other places on the web--a place to genuinely connect with someone you may not know in person. That concept is fascinating to me as I usually only trust people I know in person.
Your last question about stigma is much harder to explain. I only know that my dad has consistently chosen divorce, homelessness, estrangement from loved ones and any number of other seemingly disastrous consequences over seeking treatment. And from this I know that Brett is right: when you are going through something like this, you don't recognize that the problems you're having are stemming from your choices and your outlook. You are too close to yourself to recognize it. Those around you who love you may be desperate to get you into treatment, but the way our US system works at present, those not posing an immediate danger to themselves or others have to admit themselves. Someone close to them has to get through the haze enough to get them to realize that there is a problem, and this isn't easy. Denial is a hard bolt to break. It is also true that we are much more at ease with admitting physical illnesses. They seem explainable, treatable. They are more concrete. The brain is still fairly mysterious--and it's sooo connected with the center of our identities. To admit that something is wrong with our brains is to admit that something is fundamentally wrong with us. That is an extremely tough thing to do.
I've been rambling for a while, so I'll stop now, but I hope this helps put some things in perspective. It is definitely an issue that needs a community to solve.
Thanks, again, John, for the reference. I'll be looking that one up soon, I hope. (My "to read" list is getting longer by the day.)
Blessings to both those who struggle and to those who are standing by trying to offer support--
Lesli
That is also why, Nicole, I sympathize with your question: how much is a choice and how much is mental/chemical/physical? I've been trying for 34+ years to figure out why my dad occasionally prefers (as it seems to those of us not suffering from this or a similar disease) to sleep in his car in way stations, to jump from job to job, forfeiting often on bills, getting kicked out of places he's living---the list goes on and on. His symptoms are much more complex than depression alone, but I now understand depression a bit better having observed his struggles and read more about deression and mental illness in general. Sometimes it is a choice. Sometimes it isn't. And to tell you the truth, I'm too close to always be able to tell, but I can tell you that it's much more complicated of a decision-making process for him than it is for you and I. Many of the decision-making connections in our brains that we take for granted are stilted or turned off--or even not there for some who suffer. Their brains try to compensate, but because of the missing wiring, the picture of reality they get is not the one we get. The ability to weigh consequences and ramifications of decisions is completely distorted. Does this make more sense?
Your point regarding the fact that this issue strikes many a profession is well-taken, but I also find it interesting that many of the professions you name in your list have elements of isolation in their daily practice. Which leads to another part of the conundrum: From my reading I've learned how incredibly difficult it can be to carry on social interactions for those who suffer from mental illnesses, particularly depression (and in my dad's case, likely also schizophrenia). Sooo...my question the past few years as I try to support my relatives in their struggle has been this: How much do they isolate themselves on purpose, and to what extent does this isolation exacerbate their condition?
I find it also interesting that you mention that depression is on the rise in the US--as it is. Have long been wondering if it may be a side-effect of an ever-increasing ability for all of us to hole up in our various electronic universes--on our laptops, with our ipods, in the same house with loved ones in separate rooms on different computers. We are often isolating ourselves without really thinking about it. Not that I have anything against any of these devices, but I have to say that what attracted me to Moodle first was the immediate sense that it would allow for a greater level of social interaction--a way to perhaps combat the otherwise isolating effects of technology's impact. It, of course, all depends upon how you use it, but I think it has greater potential than other simple "post and retreat" forums/programs/formats.
I have enjoyed the free and generous discussions here at Moodle.org, and I think the open environment does much to promote a level of "real" discussion not found in many other places on the web--a place to genuinely connect with someone you may not know in person. That concept is fascinating to me as I usually only trust people I know in person.
Your last question about stigma is much harder to explain. I only know that my dad has consistently chosen divorce, homelessness, estrangement from loved ones and any number of other seemingly disastrous consequences over seeking treatment. And from this I know that Brett is right: when you are going through something like this, you don't recognize that the problems you're having are stemming from your choices and your outlook. You are too close to yourself to recognize it. Those around you who love you may be desperate to get you into treatment, but the way our US system works at present, those not posing an immediate danger to themselves or others have to admit themselves. Someone close to them has to get through the haze enough to get them to realize that there is a problem, and this isn't easy. Denial is a hard bolt to break. It is also true that we are much more at ease with admitting physical illnesses. They seem explainable, treatable. They are more concrete. The brain is still fairly mysterious--and it's sooo connected with the center of our identities. To admit that something is wrong with our brains is to admit that something is fundamentally wrong with us. That is an extremely tough thing to do.
I've been rambling for a while, so I'll stop now, but I hope this helps put some things in perspective. It is definitely an issue that needs a community to solve.
Thanks, again, John, for the reference. I'll be looking that one up soon, I hope. (My "to read" list is getting longer by the day.)
Blessings to both those who struggle and to those who are standing by trying to offer support--
Lesli
Dear Chardelle,
thank you so much for this offer.
From my perspective (DID/PTSD) I would like to keep it public, in fact make it as public as I can. I've been on a life-long mission to "speak my truth" and take every appropriate opportunity to do so.
My view is, that the more public we are, the more we will undermine stigma. I'd love it if we could have "mad pride" in the same way that gays used "gay pride" to undermine the centuries of stigma that they experience(d).
There is so much misinformation and so many predjudices. It is interesting to me and causes me puzzlement as well, how talking about mental illness evokes anger/denial in so many people.
I'd be interested in your and other views as to why this is?..best..janet
thank you so much for this offer.
From my perspective (DID/PTSD) I would like to keep it public, in fact make it as public as I can. I've been on a life-long mission to "speak my truth" and take every appropriate opportunity to do so.
My view is, that the more public we are, the more we will undermine stigma. I'd love it if we could have "mad pride" in the same way that gays used "gay pride" to undermine the centuries of stigma that they experience(d).
There is so much misinformation and so many predjudices. It is interesting to me and causes me puzzlement as well, how talking about mental illness evokes anger/denial in so many people.
I'd be interested in your and other views as to why this is?..best..janet
Thanks, Chardelle. Sorry to have gotten so personal here. I don't usually do that--Good heavens--I'm a card-carrying Scandinavian Lutheran, after all.
I have found, though, that in dealing with this issue it sometimes helps to put a human face/experience on it. That was really my only desire.
Also, I'm still interested in discussing the effects of isolation on our senses of our own well-being. And I love Frances' question, "Is depression less prevalent in OSS communities?" (Sorry Frances, for paraphrasing, if I've gotten the quote slightly wrong.) I'm hoping that it is. Am thinking that OSS gives people a greater sense of control over their "domains" (yes, the pun is intended ) and how they use them, which always helps to combat developing a sense of helplessness and being at the mercy of other decision-makers.
In any case, what I hope most take from this thread, more than anything else, is that although this is a widespread and a complex problem, we don't have to face it alone--neither the people suffering from the effects nor the people trying to understand those suffering.
Best to all,
Lesli
I have found, though, that in dealing with this issue it sometimes helps to put a human face/experience on it. That was really my only desire.
Also, I'm still interested in discussing the effects of isolation on our senses of our own well-being. And I love Frances' question, "Is depression less prevalent in OSS communities?" (Sorry Frances, for paraphrasing, if I've gotten the quote slightly wrong.) I'm hoping that it is. Am thinking that OSS gives people a greater sense of control over their "domains" (yes, the pun is intended
In any case, what I hope most take from this thread, more than anything else, is that although this is a widespread and a complex problem, we don't have to face it alone--neither the people suffering from the effects nor the people trying to understand those suffering.
Best to all,
Lesli
Thanks for your balanced and heartfelt response Lesli. Those who have experienced depression (and related mental conditions) in ourselves, friends or families know how complex the situation is, and how difficult it can be for everyone to get through. It's good of Chardelle to suggest a more private place to discuss this as examples rapidly become personal. Like many debates that touch our experiences, the above thread rapidly became polarised and personal but it seems to me that all protagonists were making some sort of sense
My own experience has told me:
My own experience has told me:
- chemicals can be helpful in getting through but rarely 'cure' and also carry problems (e.g.recent findings on prescription of Seroxat to adolescents)
- stigma is an additional problem that people suffer
- 'coming through' can involve an element of taking responsibility and personal change, if and when possible
Dear Lesli,
many thanks for your thoughtful contribution and for the courage you've demonstrated in sharing your family's story.
Regarding choices and stigma.
One concern I have about "mental illness" or "psychiatric impairment" is that lumping all illness to do with the brain together, is a bit like lumping every illness to do with limbs together. Psychiatric illnesses are so varied and numerous that perhaps the only things that they have in common are stigma and suffering.
For instance, take someone who has OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) and pair them up with someone who has schizophrenia. They both suffer enormously and they both experience extreme stigma, but their symptoms are quite different, as is their treatment.
I ask myself, do either of these people "have a choice"? I'm not sure that they do. I've known people with both diagnoses and I see their suffering and the discrimination that they suffer. If either had a heart condition or cancer, they would receive sympathy and people would inquire after thier welfare on a regular basis, but because they have OCD and schizophrenia, some people believe that they have made choices that lead to these illnesses, others give them a wide berth and others use the information to deny them goods and services.
My question is, why is it okay for me to talk publicly about my heart disease (I have a congenital heart defect) and yet, I know that if I mention that I have did/ptsd, then I am shunned, I am refused personal insurance and employers don't want to know me, the heart disease results in none of these...best..janet
many thanks for your thoughtful contribution and for the courage you've demonstrated in sharing your family's story.
Regarding choices and stigma.
One concern I have about "mental illness" or "psychiatric impairment" is that lumping all illness to do with the brain together, is a bit like lumping every illness to do with limbs together. Psychiatric illnesses are so varied and numerous that perhaps the only things that they have in common are stigma and suffering.
For instance, take someone who has OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) and pair them up with someone who has schizophrenia. They both suffer enormously and they both experience extreme stigma, but their symptoms are quite different, as is their treatment.
I ask myself, do either of these people "have a choice"? I'm not sure that they do. I've known people with both diagnoses and I see their suffering and the discrimination that they suffer. If either had a heart condition or cancer, they would receive sympathy and people would inquire after thier welfare on a regular basis, but because they have OCD and schizophrenia, some people believe that they have made choices that lead to these illnesses, others give them a wide berth and others use the information to deny them goods and services.
My question is, why is it okay for me to talk publicly about my heart disease (I have a congenital heart defect) and yet, I know that if I mention that I have did/ptsd, then I am shunned, I am refused personal insurance and employers don't want to know me, the heart disease results in none of these...best..janet
Actually, I think that some people with coronary heart disease (not entirely explained by genetic factors unlike yours probably) do have a choice (e.g. to give up smoking, lose weight or take more exercise, as well as to agree with their doctor what is the 'best' treatment for them). That is not the same as saying their disease is somehow their 'fault' but rather they may be able to have some say or influence on their health outcomes. That is probably why I am not a technological determinist, and why I have worked to use Moodle on this project.
Choices are not simple, and not always fully available.
Choices are not simple, and not always fully available.
Hello Frances,
I agree with you that the choices that people make, sometimes lead to dire consequences such as heart disease and cancer. They do indeed have a choice to give up smoking or to start exercising.
I'm fortunate that I have never had an addiction, but my reading about addictions (drugs/alcohol/other substances) and my experience of knowing people with said, leads me to conclude that giving up is not that easy.
I've just finished reading Bryce Courtney's book, Matthew Flinder's Cat, which tracks the experience (amonst other things) of someone who is an alcoholic. The description of being plagued by the need to drink 24/7 and never having a waking/conscious moment when this craving disappears, makes the idea of relinquishing the dependency extremently difficult, if not impossible. People who smoke tell me that they have a similar experience.
Psychiatry considers drug dependency a kind of psychiatric disorder, likewise with eating disorders, although few people would ever consider getting professional help for these types of conditions. I guess this is another opportunity for all of us to inform, gently and with sensitivity, where at all possible...best..janet
p.s. you're right about the congenital heart defect, I was hatched with it
I agree with you that the choices that people make, sometimes lead to dire consequences such as heart disease and cancer. They do indeed have a choice to give up smoking or to start exercising.
I'm fortunate that I have never had an addiction, but my reading about addictions (drugs/alcohol/other substances) and my experience of knowing people with said, leads me to conclude that giving up is not that easy.
I've just finished reading Bryce Courtney's book, Matthew Flinder's Cat, which tracks the experience (amonst other things) of someone who is an alcoholic. The description of being plagued by the need to drink 24/7 and never having a waking/conscious moment when this craving disappears, makes the idea of relinquishing the dependency extremently difficult, if not impossible. People who smoke tell me that they have a similar experience.
Psychiatry considers drug dependency a kind of psychiatric disorder, likewise with eating disorders, although few people would ever consider getting professional help for these types of conditions. I guess this is another opportunity for all of us to inform, gently and with sensitivity, where at all possible...best..janet
p.s. you're right about the congenital heart defect, I was hatched with it
Janet, I think we have a lot of common ground here.
Exercising choice is not always easy or even possible but I do worry about explanations of dependency or eating disorders that remove any self-determination from 'sufferers'. When in a crisis situation people may not be able to exercise choice, but moving from there to beyond their dependency / addiction those people will need help, support and also need to make positive choices about how things might be different - and being trapped in a mindset that says "it's not my fault, I can't do anything" is probably unhelpful.
Exercising choice is not always easy or even possible but I do worry about explanations of dependency or eating disorders that remove any self-determination from 'sufferers'. When in a crisis situation people may not be able to exercise choice, but moving from there to beyond their dependency / addiction those people will need help, support and also need to make positive choices about how things might be different - and being trapped in a mindset that says "it's not my fault, I can't do anything" is probably unhelpful.
Dear Frances,
Janet, I think we have a lot of common ground here.
I fully agree with you Frances, we do have a lot of common ground
Exercising choice is not always easy or even possible but I do worry about explanations of dependency or eating disorders that remove any self-determination from 'sufferers'.
By highlighting how intrusive and compelling an addiction is, I didn't want to suggest that the person has no hope and no choice (self-determination). More I wanted to stress that this is not an easy road to travel. But yes, the individual must acknowledge that they have a problem and that with hard work, and sufficient support, they can turn this around.
I think that never having had an addiction, I can't imagine how the insidiousness of addiction takes a grip on the individual and I don't want to judge someone who is embarking on something that takes more courage than I've probably ever needed.
A few years back, a young man taking one of my classes was withdrawing from heroin, the courage he demonstrated in attending most weeks, in light of his illness, was inspiring.
When in a crisis situation people may not be able to exercise choice, but moving from there to beyond their dependency / addiction those people will need help, support and also need to make positive choices about how things might be different - and being trapped in a mindset that says "it's not my fault, I can't do anything" is probably unhelpful.
Reading this, my partner's words started to resonate in my ears. He is obese, and likes to believe it's his "genes", I sometimes tell him, it's not his genes, it's what he puts in his mouth, but mostly I know I have no control and can only express my concern about his condition and the long term implications. He has diabetes, so I need say no more.
People do need to understand that "we don't want to fix the blame, but we do want to fix the problem", so that fault is irrelevant. However, they also need to understand that by "fixing the problem" they need to start behaving differently and teeing up support is an important part of that.
One thing that I know as a person who suffers from a psychiatric disorder, stigma means, that I'm defined by my condition and not by who I am. For example, I've been denied credit because of my psych condition and I've had a lecturer at a major university (locally) refuse to allow to enroll in his class because of my condition. He insisted that my psych write a letter guaranteeing that studying would do me no psych harm, however, no one else had to get a letter guaranteeing the same. Discrimination is rife, even amongst seemingly intelligent people;(
For myself, I work hard not to ensure that a psychiatric disorder is just one dimension of who I am. The really difficult part is to do this without falling into denial, it's a tricky balancing act at times...best..janet
Janet, I think we have a lot of common ground here.
I fully agree with you Frances, we do have a lot of common ground
Exercising choice is not always easy or even possible but I do worry about explanations of dependency or eating disorders that remove any self-determination from 'sufferers'.
By highlighting how intrusive and compelling an addiction is, I didn't want to suggest that the person has no hope and no choice (self-determination). More I wanted to stress that this is not an easy road to travel. But yes, the individual must acknowledge that they have a problem and that with hard work, and sufficient support, they can turn this around.
I think that never having had an addiction, I can't imagine how the insidiousness of addiction takes a grip on the individual and I don't want to judge someone who is embarking on something that takes more courage than I've probably ever needed.
A few years back, a young man taking one of my classes was withdrawing from heroin, the courage he demonstrated in attending most weeks, in light of his illness, was inspiring.
When in a crisis situation people may not be able to exercise choice, but moving from there to beyond their dependency / addiction those people will need help, support and also need to make positive choices about how things might be different - and being trapped in a mindset that says "it's not my fault, I can't do anything" is probably unhelpful.
Reading this, my partner's words started to resonate in my ears. He is obese, and likes to believe it's his "genes", I sometimes tell him, it's not his genes, it's what he puts in his mouth, but mostly I know I have no control and can only express my concern about his condition and the long term implications. He has diabetes, so I need say no more.
People do need to understand that "we don't want to fix the blame, but we do want to fix the problem", so that fault is irrelevant. However, they also need to understand that by "fixing the problem" they need to start behaving differently and teeing up support is an important part of that.
One thing that I know as a person who suffers from a psychiatric disorder, stigma means, that I'm defined by my condition and not by who I am. For example, I've been denied credit because of my psych condition and I've had a lecturer at a major university (locally) refuse to allow to enroll in his class because of my condition. He insisted that my psych write a letter guaranteeing that studying would do me no psych harm, however, no one else had to get a letter guaranteeing the same. Discrimination is rife, even amongst seemingly intelligent people;(
For myself, I work hard not to ensure that a psychiatric disorder is just one dimension of who I am. The really difficult part is to do this without falling into denial, it's a tricky balancing act at times...best..janet
Hi, Janet. I somehow missed the following when I read your post the first time:
"One concern I have about 'mental illness' or 'psychiatric impairment' is that lumping all illness to do with the brain together, is a bit like lumping every illness to do with limbs together. Psychiatric illnesses are so varied and numerous that perhaps the only things that they have in common are stigma and suffering."
You are right. I was making gross overgeneralizations. In fact, as I reflect on my post this morning and try to figure out just what possessed me to post in the first place, the best explanation I can come up with is that I was under the combined influence of an overdose of chocolate (those Milkyway bars are dangerous!), pregnancy hormones, and too much time spent dwelling as of late on the legacy of parent/child relationships (again, due to said pregnancy).
In any case, thanks for sharing your experience and expertise. You raise some very pertinent questions.
Lesli
"One concern I have about 'mental illness' or 'psychiatric impairment' is that lumping all illness to do with the brain together, is a bit like lumping every illness to do with limbs together. Psychiatric illnesses are so varied and numerous that perhaps the only things that they have in common are stigma and suffering."
You are right. I was making gross overgeneralizations. In fact, as I reflect on my post this morning and try to figure out just what possessed me to post in the first place, the best explanation I can come up with is that I was under the combined influence of an overdose of chocolate (those Milkyway bars are dangerous!
In any case, thanks for sharing your experience and expertise. You raise some very pertinent questions.
Lesli
I missed that one Lesli but then when it was released I had 3 children (10,8, and 4) , just completed my masters and started lecturing. I guess you could say I was doing the practice-based rather than multimedia learning
You'll be fine as soon as you learn to type one-handed with a baby over your shoulder.
You'll be fine as soon as you learn to type one-handed with a baby over your shoulder.
To admit that something is wrong with our brains is to admit that
something is fundamentally wrong with us. That is an extremely tough
thing to do.
Thanks Lesli, that is what I suspected. There's someone my husband knows on a social level (not as a patient) who has a classic case of Tourette's syndrome that is apparently plainly obvious. My husband has told him this, explained the illness to him, and suggested he seek medical treatment for it. But he doesn't want to accept he has such an illness. He would rather continue to behave in a socially inappropriate manner.
But isn't that a reflection of one's own prejudices about mental illness to not seek care for it? We can only control our own attitudes and not that of others so it seems to me that caring about ourselves and our well-being would involve seeking help for mental illness on the one hand but keeping quiet about it to others who might not be understanding because of the stigma that others might have about it that we can't control. If I were ill, I wouldn't hesitate to get help, but I certainly wouldn't share it publicly. I wouldn't talk publicly about people close to me who suffered from mental illnesses either, even though I have known many. The world isn't ready for it.
Thanks Lesli, that is what I suspected. There's someone my husband knows on a social level (not as a patient) who has a classic case of Tourette's syndrome that is apparently plainly obvious. My husband has told him this, explained the illness to him, and suggested he seek medical treatment for it. But he doesn't want to accept he has such an illness. He would rather continue to behave in a socially inappropriate manner.
But isn't that a reflection of one's own prejudices about mental illness to not seek care for it? We can only control our own attitudes and not that of others so it seems to me that caring about ourselves and our well-being would involve seeking help for mental illness on the one hand but keeping quiet about it to others who might not be understanding because of the stigma that others might have about it that we can't control. If I were ill, I wouldn't hesitate to get help, but I certainly wouldn't share it publicly. I wouldn't talk publicly about people close to me who suffered from mental illnesses either, even though I have known many. The world isn't ready for it.
"If I were ill, I wouldn't hesitate to get help, but I certainly wouldn't share it publicly."
I'm a complete layman in psychiatry and psychology, but as I understand it, if you were truly mentally ill, you wouldn't be thinking the same way you are now (as mentally stable), so you maybe can't make an assumption like that (predict what you would do when mentally ill).
I'm a complete layman in psychiatry and psychology, but as I understand it, if you were truly mentally ill, you wouldn't be thinking the same way you are now (as mentally stable), so you maybe can't make an assumption like that (predict what you would do when mentally ill).
Samuli, you are correct, in some cases. But what if someone is feeling really depressed and thinking about suicide? I mean, they can go buy a gun to put an end to their depression (well, at least in the US they could) or they could go to a doctor for a prescription that might get rid of the desire to kill one's self. The illness is no less real if they choose to treat it than if they don't.
Not all mentally ill people lack self-awareness. I've known a schizophrenic who was quite aware of the need to stay on medication and what she could do and what she couldn't do within the limits of her illness. And then we've got a former professor here who went insane years and years ago who wanders the streets of our neighborhood and always passes by our building between precisely 8:55 and 9:05 in the morning shouting things like "Coward! Coward! Coward!" or "Heehaw! Heehaw!" or my favorite "We need cat shit! We need cat shit!" while carrying an umbrella in one hand and a dirty piece of cardboard in front of his eyes with the other hand thinking he can hide his face from everyone and seems to think nothing is amiss with his own behavior. In fact, he seems quite happy living in his own little world.
Not all mentally ill people lack self-awareness. I've known a schizophrenic who was quite aware of the need to stay on medication and what she could do and what she couldn't do within the limits of her illness. And then we've got a former professor here who went insane years and years ago who wanders the streets of our neighborhood and always passes by our building between precisely 8:55 and 9:05 in the morning shouting things like "Coward! Coward! Coward!" or "Heehaw! Heehaw!" or my favorite "We need cat shit! We need cat shit!" while carrying an umbrella in one hand and a dirty piece of cardboard in front of his eyes with the other hand thinking he can hide his face from everyone and seems to think nothing is amiss with his own behavior. In fact, he seems quite happy living in his own little world.
I certainly didn't mean to suggest that the subject should not be public, I was surprised, however, at the number of posts, it's obvious that many peole do want to talk about this subject.
And, thanks to Nicole's lack of sensitivity and misinformation on the subject, we have a very interesting thread going.
And, thanks to Nicole's lack of sensitivity and misinformation on the subject, we have a very interesting thread going.
"The illness is no less real if they choose to treat it than if they don't.
...
Not all mentally ill people lack self-awareness."
Those statements are true, but I don't see any connection between my comment and those statements... I wasn't commenting on the thread as whole, just that the illness might change the way we act in more profound ways than we might feel right now.
...
Not all mentally ill people lack self-awareness."
Those statements are true, but I don't see any connection between my comment and those statements... I wasn't commenting on the thread as whole, just that the illness might change the way we act in more profound ways than we might feel right now.
Dear Samuli,
My experience is just as you describe it. When my brain is behaving itself my thought processes bare no resemblance to when it is not. It's like the contrast between winter and summer. When it's 43 degrees (centigrade) outside, it is really hard to remember what it feels like to have the house surrounded by cloud and pushing zero (centigrade).
Another analogy also relates to summer and winter. In the winter I turn the heater on in the bathroom (no central heating here) a good half hour before I want to shower, so the chill is taken off the room, I then run the water until it is hot. Conversely, in the summer I'd be very happy for the bathroom to be chilly and rarely shower in anything more than lukewarm, generally cold.
The winter is just finishing here and sometimes, during the coldest months, I try to get inside actually wanting the shower to be lukewarm/cold. It is really hard to imagine. Likewise, when I'm well, it's hard to imagine how mad my brain can be and vice versa when I'm nuts..best..janet
My experience is just as you describe it. When my brain is behaving itself my thought processes bare no resemblance to when it is not. It's like the contrast between winter and summer. When it's 43 degrees (centigrade) outside, it is really hard to remember what it feels like to have the house surrounded by cloud and pushing zero (centigrade).
Another analogy also relates to summer and winter. In the winter I turn the heater on in the bathroom (no central heating here) a good half hour before I want to shower, so the chill is taken off the room, I then run the water until it is hot. Conversely, in the summer I'd be very happy for the bathroom to be chilly and rarely shower in anything more than lukewarm, generally cold.
The winter is just finishing here and sometimes, during the coldest months, I try to get inside actually wanting the shower to be lukewarm/cold. It is really hard to imagine. Likewise, when I'm well, it's hard to imagine how mad my brain can be and vice versa when I'm nuts..best..janet
Hi,
I taught my MCA students one paper on Psychlogy of computer programing. IT practice is absolutly a higher mental process unfortunately tied to man machine interaction further narrowed down to a minscule without meaning. Added to this the flexitime approach where the IT companies at time do not have concern on the stressful situation they impose. Excessive use of time and faculty without having a sense of satisfaction will be an abuse of body and mind. We from India do a greater role in IT and ITES services where the IT professionals work for an unkown client with change of time and name and accent. Recently a study among the suiciders shown that a large number of reported suicide for that year is from IT professionals and majority women.
I privide a link to the latest artice on IT situation from here for your information
http://www.hindu.com/op/2006/09/17/stories/2006091700041400.htm
Nagarajan