Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por Helen Foster -
Número de respostas: 28
Imaxe de Core developers Imaxe de Documentation writers Imaxe de Moodle HQ Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Plugin developers Imaxe de Testers Imaxe de Translators

Hello everyone,

You've probably noticed a course setting called 'Hidden sections' with options 'Hidden sections are completely invisible' and 'Hidden sections are shown as not available'.

If set to 'Hidden sections are shown as not available' then students see the section with label 'Not available' and teachers see the section with label 'Hidden from students'. This is confusing and inconsistent with elsewhere in Moodle. 🤔

Thus, I suggest removing the setting completely in Moodle 4.4, and making it so that if a teacher hides a section then they see it with the label 'Hidden from students' and students don't see it at all (MDL-79918).

Please let us know what you think of removing the setting 'Hidden sections', either by replying to this discussion or by voting or commenting in MDL-79918.

Media de puntuacións:Useful (5)
En resposta a Helen Foster

Re: Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por Rick Jerz -
Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Testers
I have never used the "Hidden sections are shown as not available" setting, so I would not be bothered by having it removed.

However, I have also thought that some instructors might want to use it, so it is good that you are asking.
Media de puntuacións:Useful (2)
En resposta a Helen Foster

Re: Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por Mary Cooch -
Imaxe de Documentation writers Imaxe de Moodle HQ Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Testers Imaxe de Translators
I agree with removing this setting. I'd noticed it causing confusion on Moodle Academy - and am now off to view that tracker issue sorriso
Media de puntuacións:Useful (1)
En resposta a Helen Foster

Re: Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por Emma Richardson -
Imaxe de Documentation writers Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Plugin developers
I agree that this makes sense. It is a confusing setting.
Media de puntuacións:Useful (1)
En resposta a Emma Richardson

Re: Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por Rod Spears -
Yes, both of these settings are confusing. Our faculty thought if we selected the "Hidden sections are completely invisible" that learners would not see the section at all, until they meet the conditions to view it. So several years ago we started using the Grid format because it is the only format that would completely hide the section. 

Then we upgraded to 4.1.1 and that option no longer worked. Learners would still see the section and when they clicked on that section, they see a message telling them it is not available. I thought this was a bug so I reported it to the developer and he told me it was actually a bug prior to 4.1.1 that made it completely invisible and the bug was fixed when we updated to 4.1.1 and also upgraded the Grid module. We discussed it but, he did not agree with the meaning of invisible. 

We would like to see a change that would make it totally invisible to the learners. It is OK for teachers to see the 'hidden from students' message. 
Media de puntuacións:Useful (2)
En resposta a Rod Spears

Re: Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por Gareth J Barnard -
Imaxe de Core developers Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Plugin developers
I completely agree Helen,

I've often found that the options of: "Hidden sections are completely invisible" and "Hidden sections are shown as not available" are confusing to users.  Therefore far better to just have the former as default functionality.

I am 'the developer' that Rob mentions, and the Grid format does implement the setting.  When set to "Hidden sections are completely invisible" then the student does indeed not see the section and the teacher gets a "Hidden from students" message.  I've checked the M4.3 version Rob, and it is working as it should.  I'll double check the M4.1 version when I get a chance.  Humm, perhaps I'll remove it from all current versions anyway as there seems to me to be really positive responses to your post in terms of removing it.

G
Media de puntuacións:Useful (3)
En resposta a Gareth J Barnard

Re: Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por Gareth J Barnard -
Imaxe de Core developers Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Plugin developers
Additional (and not wanting to have topic creep), Grid format version V401.2.1 did have a fix to "Hidden sections are shown as not available", Rob. Please update if you're on a version less than that.  Otherwise for "Hidden sections are completely invisible", then the format is working as expected.

And, I've found the discussion issue: https://github.com/gjbarnard/moodle-format_grid/issues/162 - and that relates to 'restrictions', not 'invisibility', therefore this is separate functionality and the student would need to see restriction messages?  Or is this something else to be considered for improving?  i.e. that students only see things if they are allowed to and not told that they can't if they're in the wrong group (for example).
Media de puntuacións: -
En resposta a Gareth J Barnard

Should we remove the setting 'Hidden sections'?

por Helen Foster -
Imaxe de Core developers Imaxe de Documentation writers Imaxe de Moodle HQ Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Plugin developers Imaxe de Testers Imaxe de Translators

Thanks everyone for your responses. Si So far it seems that everyone is in agreement about removing the setting 'Hidden sections', and making it so that if a teacher hides a section then it's completely hidden for students.

If you've not yet posted, please do let us know why you think. You can also vote for MDL-79918.

Media de puntuacións: -
En resposta a Helen Foster

Re: Should we remove the setting 'Hidden sections'?

por Nathan Lind -
Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers
We use "Hidden sections are shown as not available" exclusively, so students know there are more "things" to come and that they will be released as the days of the term progress. Just sharing out use.
Media de puntuacións:Useful (2)
En resposta a Nathan Lind

Re: Should we remove the setting 'Hidden sections'?

por Rick Jerz -
Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Testers
I have thought about this too, Nathan. As I experimented, I saw that Boost shows a "lock" to the right of these "hidden but not available" topics. I use Gareth's Collapsed Topics plugin, and CT shows the words "not available" below each topic. My conclusion (in my case) is that I prefer to show only things that are available in Moodle, and if students want to see all topics, all topics are shown to them in the Syllabus. However, I can see some instructors preferring to show all items.
Media de puntuacións: -
En resposta a Rick Jerz

Re: Should we remove the setting 'Hidden sections'?

por Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Translators
I have a language issue with "hidden but not available". The "but" joining the two sounds like "not available" is not one would expect. In my ears the two should be "hidden and not available" or "hidden and unavailable" and "hidden but available" (through the link). Nowadays people are used to "hidden" links, also called unlisted or "hashed" URLs. They are resources which you can open only if you know the URL, sometimes the same URLs you would see otherwise as in the case of Moodle, or the link contains a secret code, which is needed to open it, example "unlisted" YouTube videos.
Media de puntuacións: -
En resposta a Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Should we remove the setting 'Hidden sections'?

por Przemek Kaszubski -
Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Testers
On the sites I administer(ed) I always changed to the default to Completely invisible.

I'm not sure how many of our teachers would use this setting, but I agree with the removal.

That setting was never clear also because it never affected the plain "Hidden (from students)" label or pill displayed for teachers on the course page. I can't count how many times I had to open the course settings to double check that status.

Another pain point for me was and still is the section summary - will it or will it not show to the students when a section is hidden.
I often end(ed) up clearing up any summary info from hidden/collapsed/restricted sections and instead placing additional labels (Text and media items) after the section titles which I could clearly control - as displaying for students or not.
As a related side note, then - the show or not show the section summary is - I believe - also a needed setting for a section's Restricted access. I'd like to be able to Restrict access without completely hiding a section but also hiding the summary, for example - so only the section title is shown.

Kind regards, All.
Media de puntuacións:Useful (1)
En resposta a Rick Jerz

Re: Should we remove the setting 'Hidden sections'?

por John Provasnik -
Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Testers
This gets tricky when some hidden sections are "for teachers only" -- I'd never want students to see these exist no matter the setting for "show hidden topics as..." But--- maybe all I need to do is start doing is simply restrict (instead of hide) the Teacher only section(s) to the "Teacher Role" with the "eye slashed" visibility option... but I think you need a 3rd party plugin to restrict by Role. But I think this is all I'd need to do to get around that.

During summer school, we'd only show the students the sections that they actively had access to -- didn't want to overwhelm them. But during the regular school year, we have all sections shown to them (even those hidden) so they knew exactly what was to come.

I like your idea of letting them see it in the Syllabus -- I'd prefer that if Syllabus was a Moodle activity that dynamically updated as sections were added/removed -- staff always forget to update the Syllabus unless it's the first week of school : )
Media de puntuacións: -
En resposta a Helen Foster

Re: Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por David Herney -
Imaxe de Core developers Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Plugin developers
Hi...

I do not agree and I have never heard of user confusion in my work.

I use those options a lot in my course formats (Onetopic and Menutopic) and find them useful in several scenarios.

However, I accept the majority's decision and will adjust my formats if necessary.

(Apologies for my bad English)

Saludos
Media de puntuacións:Useful (2)
En resposta a David Herney

Re: Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por Helen Foster -
Imaxe de Core developers Imaxe de Documentation writers Imaxe de Moodle HQ Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Plugin developers Imaxe de Testers Imaxe de Translators

Thanks David for your response. It's good to know about the setting being used, as if it is decided to remove it from standard Moodle, we can maybe leave code there for plugin developers to make use of in custom course formats.

Media de puntuacións: -
En resposta a David Herney

Re: Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Translators
More information on: Activity/Section Availability Research Findings. (A course not listed under moodle.org forums and not open to guests.)

I use both. With kids, here in the Asian culture we have youngsters in late teens behaving like kids, for them I leave the things to come completely invisible. For students (tertiary) it is good that they know what will come. Think of the simplest case where the course has a table of contents, each chapter or whatever of that size will be a section on the course homepage. So day 1 one can have all the sections created, but they are marked "Not available". Not only our students are mature enough to understand that these are the things to come but they also push their curiosity. Some even refer things in ahead.

(Edited by Gareth J Barnard - Moderator - Edited for 'Flaming / personal attack' content.  "Participants are reminded to show respect and consideration to others, as mentioned in our site policy. Any flaming or personal attacks will be deleted." In this case I've decided to edit the given content to keep it focused on the discussion of need of the functionality  - original submission Thursday, 21 March 2024, 7:42 AM)

Media de puntuacións: -
En resposta a Helen Foster

Re: Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por Quintin Seegers -
Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers
This option has always baffled me. "Hide the section, but don't hide it, just make it inaccessible" ?

If the wording of the options were changed to "Hidden" and "Unavailable", it would align more with the functionality behind the option. Removing the option could break existing courses for users that use this option in the way it works.

Personally, I always use the 'Hidden sections are completely invisible' if the section should not be visible at all, and use the Restriction Rules where it should be visible but not accessible until the specified restriction rules are met.

Just my 10c worth (We don't have 2c and 5c in NZ, so I had to round up 😄)

Quintin
Media de puntuacións:Useful (2)
En resposta a Quintin Seegers

Re: Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Translators
If you are saying that the current functionality is useful but needs better wording, that I understand.
Media de puntuacións:Useful (1)
En resposta a Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por John Provasnik -
Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Testers
My thoughts on the setting itself:

I think the wordings can be best clarified the way I see some other settings -- instead of simply a "Yes / No", the choices should be phrase. IE: Hidden Section Titles - Dropdown choice 1 (Show titles of hidden sections on course page and Course index); Dropdown choice 2 (Hide titles of hidden sections).

Something like this would let the user know exactly what they're doing over the Yes/No choices - could make it less wordy, but it's better than trying to squeeze all that info into the Setting's Label.
Media de puntuacións: -
En resposta a John Provasnik

Re: Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por Rick Jerz -
Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Testers
I wonder if every section should have an option "Only show section name," the default set to no, or disabled. Alternatively, this could say, "Do not show section contents."

One still has to decide if "only show section name" would show the description when applicable. Well, there we go again, something simple getting more complex.
Media de puntuacións:Useful (3)
En resposta a Helen Foster

Re: Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por Lukas Pagitz -
In my use cases I like to use the feature as it is now (i.e., hidden sections are shown as not available). Using the topics course format, my students know what the next topics are going to be and that something is already there, just not visible for them. I can understand that this setting may cause confusion or might not be needed, but I'd appreciate it if the setting could be kept. Thank you!
Media de puntuacións:Useful (1)
En resposta a Lukas Pagitz

Re: Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por Przemek Kaszubski -
Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Testers
I think one can use Restriction criteria for that - much more flexible. You can decide about any topic individually - hide completely some, while restricting access to others (and decide if the topic is visible but unavailable or both unavailable and invisible - this latter option is effectively not quite the same as "hidden", however, since any time-controlled activities will continue showing in the teacher's calendar).
Media de puntuacións: -
En resposta a Przemek Kaszubski

Re: Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Translators
I observe that there are three parties involved: a) UX designers b) Moodle administrators and c) teachers. And their views differ.
triste
Media de puntuacións: -
En resposta a Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por Gareth J Barnard -
Imaxe de Core developers Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Plugin developers

Given that Visvanath, then perhaps there needs to be clarity upon which view should be the driving force?

I see things as:

  1. The educators and educated drive the functional requirements of the tool they employ to facilitate learning.
  2. The administrators drive the functional requirements of the tool that empowers them to manage it for the educators and educated.
  3. The UX designers understand those requirements and come up with a design that matches, taking into account other requirements like accessibility.
  4. The developers implement the functional requirements taking into account the UX design within the limitations of the technology and available budget, be financial, time, or both.
  5. The managers manage an orchestrate the communication processes between all involved, thus bringing order to the potential chaos.

There's an additional element here of 'change', or rather 'fear of change' and thus 'change management'.  Fear of change stifles creativity and progress.  We should always be thinking with a clear mind on what is the best solution for now, taking into account the lessons learnt from the past.  Just because we're used to what has been doesn't make it correct for the future.

Thus in this case if the educators and educated consider that what already is, then this is the correct solution for the now and leave it alone.  Otherwise get the consensus from them of what it should be and implement it.

Gareth

Media de puntuacións:Useful (1)
En resposta a Gareth J Barnard

Re: Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Translators
In lighter vein (I have to, after a post already got sanctioned in this very same discussion.)

The dynamics you describe are nice - too nice to be true. In my perception Moodle development goes like this:
1. The UX designers find new ways beautify Moodle
2. The developers push them to code
3. The (local) Moodle administrators pull the code
4. Educators make handstands, not only because they are tire of the "who hid my cheese" game but some new functionality means the loss of old functionality
5. The Moodle administrators look for workarounds
6. The educators swallow compromises
7. Back to step 1 for the next fashion season.

It had not always been like that. The waves we had in Moodle 2 were mostly on functionality - and there were plenty of themes to choose from - in the core and in the plug-in database. In Moodle 3 there was one design wave, that to accommodate smart-phones. Now the Mobile App is ripe, the "responsiveness" of themes is not on the table. Sorry, when I look at it now, I can't help coming back to my old hypothesis: A whole army of developers who are not Moodle users deciding on the future of Moodle... I know, it is not conducive in any way for the current discussion. So if anybody wants to say something on that please contribute that discussion in the Lounge there!
Media de puntuacións: -
En resposta a Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por Gareth J Barnard -
Imaxe de Core developers Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Plugin developers

Dear Visvanath,

I didn't say that the process I described is as it is, but rather it how I think it should be.  If the process is not as the consensus wishes then that should change.  Indeed to keep things focussed on this topic, then this discussion about the process forms a supplementary adjustment after the outcome has been decided upon.

From my moderators perspective, its not a case of a 'lighter vein' but rather sticking to the 'Code of conduct' under 'Respect others', "Show respect and consideration to others at all times, including respecting the decisions of forum moderators and course facilitators. Any flaming or personal attacks will be deleted.".  I made a decision based upon this and acted accordingly.

Kind regards,

Gareth

Media de puntuacións: -
En resposta a Gareth J Barnard

Re: Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Translators
Hi Gareth

First on the distraction: I didn't challenge your moderator's rights. I wanted to say, I am switching or trying to switch to humor to avoid another incident. Not 100% humor though, but don't ask me which part is serious!

Now to the topic, The development process: I suspected that the model you described wss how you think it should be, which you've confirmed in your reply. I described what I see is happening. So the question is whether there is a truth in what I see or am I imagining things.

P.S. If you want to close this topic, it is perfectly OK with me. I replied earlier, because you were talking to me.
Media de puntuacións: -
En resposta a Helen Foster

Re: Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por Mónica Sánchez -

Hi,

even I don’t use the course format setting "Hidden sections are shown as not available" for 'Hidden sections', I agree with those who think it is useful in some cases and is up to teachers to choose one of the two options for that setting.

And I think it is not confusing. The reason teachers see the label 'Hidden from students' no matter what it is because they are hidden sections (the teacher chooses to hide that section for a reason). And the course format setting for hidden sections is how do you want students see that hidden section: as ‘…completely invisible' or '… as not available'.

In other words, if Course format >Hidden sections is set as 'Hidden sections are shown as not available', teachers would see the label 'Hidden from students' (because the sections is hidden) and students see the label 'Not available', as is set.

So, I think this setting would stay.

¡Saludos!

Media de puntuacións:Useful (1)
En resposta a Mónica Sánchez

Re: Anyone with hidden course sections shown as not available?

por Przemek Kaszubski -
Imaxe de Particularly helpful Moodlers Imaxe de Testers
If the "unavailable" option stays, then there are some UI pain points with this - for TEACHERS:

1) Depending on the choice of that setting in course settings, the TEACHER should see different labels - not simply the indiscriminate "Hidden from students" , but precisely sth like "Section summary and contents unavailable to students" and/or "Section completely hidden". Teacher should NOT be forced to switch to the Student role to preview "Unavailable" or to see if the section hides completely. It's a waste of the educator's time. This status ("Hidden completely" vs "Section summary and contents unavailable to students" or "Unavailable: Only section summary and contents hidden students") should also be displayed to teachers while editing a given section; otherwise, it's easy to forget especially if you run several courses or if you're helping another teacher, collaborating with him/her etc.

2) I've just checked on the QA site Section summaries do NOT show to students with the "Unavailable" setting set, but as pointed out above - this info should be explicitly signalled to the teachers on the UI. (I'd a actually prefer a separate sub-setting - at least global per course, if not at an individual section level - whether section summary should be displayed to students, or not. Being able to control that option is useful.)

HTH & kind regards,

Przemek
Media de puntuacións:Useful (1)