Hello everyone,
It looks like there is a good chance we'll have to defend Moodle against Sakai to our administration. I know virtually nothing about Sakai but I think our administration is wowed by the big supporters and big money. I see there is already a thread about Moodle and Sakai but the information there doesn't really seem relevant (number of installs, etc.).
So, here's my question: what makes Moodle a better choice than Sakai for a small community college?
Thanks,
Jacob
http://www.darcynorman.net/2006/02/06/moodle-vs-sakai-fight#comments
Check out this post, and the 32 comments (as of today). I've found it a really good resource, with all the accompanying links. Notice some of the biggies from both moodle and sakai show up along the way.
Check out this post, and the 32 comments (as of today). I've found it a really good resource, with all the accompanying links. Notice some of the biggies from both moodle and sakai show up along the way.
I've never used Sakai but I can at least comment that if what certain people are looking for is "big supporters and big money", then you should at least mention that the UK's Open University is going across to Moodle for all its online teaching. The OU is possibly the best-respected name in the world when it comes to distance learning. Also mention the impressive work across New Zealand which did so much to prove Moodle's worth in very large installations, and Athabasca University in Canada.
And for "a small community college" one of the strongest arguments, I would think, would be that so many other small community colleges are using it. You have a ready-made support network of institutions similar to yours, who have solved problems (installation, integration, etc) that you'll need to solve. I'd guess you can find someone relatively close geographically?
I have absolutely nothing against Sakai, there's no point being oppositional without good reason. If you do end up using Sakai then maybe you'll find out that it's excellent. But it would be a shame for a decision to be made for the wrong reasons.
And for "a small community college" one of the strongest arguments, I would think, would be that so many other small community colleges are using it. You have a ready-made support network of institutions similar to yours, who have solved problems (installation, integration, etc) that you'll need to solve. I'd guess you can find someone relatively close geographically?
I have absolutely nothing against Sakai, there's no point being oppositional without good reason. If you do end up using Sakai then maybe you'll find out that it's excellent. But it would be a shame for a decision to be made for the wrong reasons.
If you want an example of Sakai at a community college system you might take a look at Foothills College in California. They have been very active in Sakai, and might might be part of the reason your administration is attracted to Sakai.
http://www.foothillglobalaccess.org/etudes/
You can read Vivi Sinou of Foothills discussing their move to Sakai here:
http://le.suny.edu/sln/rpc/rsp/foothills.htm
http://www.foothillglobalaccess.org/etudes/
You can read Vivi Sinou of Foothills discussing their move to Sakai here:
http://le.suny.edu/sln/rpc/rsp/foothills.htm
And the lesson would be:
If someone gives you $400,000 to install(!) Sakai, it might be worth trying it out.
If you have a realistic budget, you may be better off with Moodle
.
And if someone gave you $400,000 to install any open source LMS, would you really choose Sakai?
If someone gives you $400,000 to install(!) Sakai, it might be worth trying it out.
If you have a realistic budget, you may be better off with Moodle
And if someone gave you $400,000 to install any open source LMS, would you really choose Sakai?
I really like Moodle. I wish we were using it at my school - because I enjoy working with PHP and because I like the way Moodle is built around lessons. That's why I read the forums, I definitely don't want to be a lurking Sakai-troll! But this harping on the cost of Sakai, here and in other forums, frustrates me. It's not that I think your overestimating the costs of Sakai, it just seems that cost of Moodle is consistently underestimated - and not in a way that reflects well on Moodle.
Because Sakai was funded by Mellon, the initial schools needed to demonstrate that they put forward matching funds. In that situation everything is accounted for. There are salaries of the people who work on Sakai, the health care costs they use, the costs of the people who vacuum their offices, the utility bills, the administrative support, some chunk of the cost of the building where the people sit, on and on. It's not that those costs are overestimated organizations with professional financial staff account for everything.
Yet Moodle costs nothing? It was developed with a few thousand bucks of grants from New Zealand? I don't buy it. Moodle has many many talented developers 'volunteering' to work on it. Now maybe most of those developers do strictly work on it only after they have left work for the day, but I bet a good chunk are supported by an institution while they work on Moodle (as they should be), including health care, air conditioning and the rest of it. Plus there are many happy administrators running Moodle installations on their campuses, and helping instructors set up classes. etc. It's costing somebody money.
I hope Jacob does convince his administration that Moodle is the better and cheaper alternative. Saying that Moodle will cost nothing will not impress administrators who work with budgets. When you take benefits and overhead into account, $400K is about 4 FTEs (full time equivalents) for one year. Why not think of what that could do for a Moodle installation? There's the person running the system. Library support, help desk support, training? Want a developer to customize Moodle for your community? A designer to put a skin on Moodle? You might not need any of these people, maybe you need an hour a week to get Moodle going and hooked in to your campus system and then let word of mouth do the rest. But why not be serious about budgeting? You could get some benefit out of it, and show how much more value the administration's money will buy with Moodle.
If the administrators are impressed by the big money behind Sakai, tell them: "Guess what? There's big money behind Moodle too!" Then show them how much you can do with $400K in the first year and $200K a year for the next 5. Or whatever (just tossing around numbers - I've no idea what the realities of the budget would be). But fight fire with fire, and be realistic. Moodle can talk about money, too.
Because Sakai was funded by Mellon, the initial schools needed to demonstrate that they put forward matching funds. In that situation everything is accounted for. There are salaries of the people who work on Sakai, the health care costs they use, the costs of the people who vacuum their offices, the utility bills, the administrative support, some chunk of the cost of the building where the people sit, on and on. It's not that those costs are overestimated organizations with professional financial staff account for everything.
Yet Moodle costs nothing? It was developed with a few thousand bucks of grants from New Zealand? I don't buy it. Moodle has many many talented developers 'volunteering' to work on it. Now maybe most of those developers do strictly work on it only after they have left work for the day, but I bet a good chunk are supported by an institution while they work on Moodle (as they should be), including health care, air conditioning and the rest of it. Plus there are many happy administrators running Moodle installations on their campuses, and helping instructors set up classes. etc. It's costing somebody money.
I hope Jacob does convince his administration that Moodle is the better and cheaper alternative. Saying that Moodle will cost nothing will not impress administrators who work with budgets. When you take benefits and overhead into account, $400K is about 4 FTEs (full time equivalents) for one year. Why not think of what that could do for a Moodle installation? There's the person running the system. Library support, help desk support, training? Want a developer to customize Moodle for your community? A designer to put a skin on Moodle? You might not need any of these people, maybe you need an hour a week to get Moodle going and hooked in to your campus system and then let word of mouth do the rest. But why not be serious about budgeting? You could get some benefit out of it, and show how much more value the administration's money will buy with Moodle.
If the administrators are impressed by the big money behind Sakai, tell them: "Guess what? There's big money behind Moodle too!" Then show them how much you can do with $400K in the first year and $200K a year for the next 5. Or whatever (just tossing around numbers - I've no idea what the realities of the budget would be). But fight fire with fire, and be realistic. Moodle can talk about money, too.
The following chart provides a comparison of the various administrative tasks for our use of a Proprietary system and Moodle. I recognize that we may not be representative of many institutions who are discussing this topic; but, on the other hand, maybe some folks look similar! We are a small institution (1400 students, 75 faculty, 135 courses on the system per semester) with no automation/integration with a SIS (I have always created and archived all courses manually; we do use flat file enroll to create student accounts). I find the hardware costs to be equivalent (a $3000 box will do it for us). The big cost savings is in software/licensing fees.
|
Task |
Proprietary |
Moodle |
Results |
|
Server side |
Security, Operating system, Reliability 1 hour per week |
Security, Operating system, Reliability 1 hour per week |
Equal effort |
|
Software installation |
30 minutes, self contained |
30 minutes. 1 hour additional attention needed for cron, aspell, xlst |
Proprietary easier, but any competent sysadmin can handle a Moodle install easily. Mandrake supports RPM. |
|
Database maintenance |
Possible repair |
Possible repair |
Equal effort |
|
Backup procedures |
Set to backup to a remote server; automated; no individual course backups |
Set to backup to USB drive and daily course backups reside on the server; automated |
Equal effort; Moodle has more types of backups for selective restore |
|
Customization of code |
Not possible |
Usually a matter of dropping files into selected folders; occasional code editing required. 2 hours per semester |
Moodle allows for code customization, but certainly does not require it. Well worth the effort. |
|
Creation of student accounts and passwords |
Flat file 1 hour per semester |
Flat file 1 hour per semester |
Equal effort |
|
Site look and feel |
Limited selection of themes, content, and layouts. Difficult to add custom text to front page. 2 hours, one time only |
Limited selection of themes. Easy to customize layout and add custom text to the front page. 2 hours, adjusted content throughout semester |
Moodle is easier to customize and update |
|
Administration options for user roles, allowed activities |
Major functions in place and easily accessed by menus. Many features greyed out as unavailable unless purchased separately 1 hour, one time only |
Major functions in place and easily accessed by menus. 1 hour, one time only |
Equal functionality |
|
Create, remove, or recycle courses each semester |
Courses can be restored with selective content; instructors must be added in a separate step 10 minutes per course (archive and recycle), occurs each semester |
Courses can be restored with selective content; instructors must be added in a separate step 10 minutes per course (archive and recycle), occurs each semester |
Equal effort |
|
Keeping faculty members informed |
Communication is possible by email or a system wide announcement that appears on course pages 2 minutes per post, 30 posts per semester |
Communication is possible by email or a notice appearing on the front page of the site. 2 minutes per post, 30 posts per semester |
Equal effort |
|
Providing training and support |
Workshops, telephone support, office visits 10 hours per semester |
Workshops, telephone support, office visits 10 hours per semester |
Equal effort |
Based on
the best estimates provided by the people involved, we estimate that our level
of the Proprietary system and Moodle administration and support require 55-60 man-hours per
academic year, most of which are borne by the Moodle/Proprietary system administrator. At $25 per hour, the support costs are approximately $1,500 annually.
The costs for migrating a single course
from the Proprietary System to Moodle would likely be something like 1 hour (or less) to
convert/adjust the course and up to 14 hours to learn the basics of course
construction, user management, and the use of activities, calendar, and
grading. The estimate, assuming $30 per
hour, is $4,500 ($30 x 150 courses converted) plus $22,500 (50 instructors
taking the full 15 hours to learn the system at $30 per hour).
atw
(Edited by Yu Zhang - Wednesday, 19 April 2006, 03:15 PM)
Thank you AT, this is very useful information! Have you thought of posting this on the Educause Small College and CIO lists? I think folks there would find it very interesting.
http://www.educause.edu/content.asp?page_id=900&bhcp=1
http://listserv.educause.edu/archives/cio.html
http://www.educause.edu/content.asp?page_id=900&bhcp=1
http://listserv.educause.edu/archives/cio.html
I am currently writing about 4 papers on my study
. I would LOVE to send it somewhere it could be helpful. Let me finish getting my references together. . .
atw
. I would LOVE to send it somewhere it could be helpful. Let me finish getting my references together. . .atw
You've left the name of the proprietary option in one of your chart boxes accidentally (I assume). I think an administrator could edit it out for you if you asked them to.
In reply to David Scotson
need administrator edit: Help! Defending Moodle versus Sakai
by A. T. Wyatt -
Oops! Yes, please, edit that!
atw
atw
AT:
Thanks for this list. I'm wondering though, how do you account for things like the differing activities, or the way you grade items, or the profiles and signon logs? For example, in BB when I want to put an update notification/announcement at the top of the default page, it's about 7-10 steps. In moodle it's 2-3...
Did you really do a one-click install with BB? That just seems unbelievable- not that I'm accusing you of anything, but schools I talk to can't even manage to upgrade from 5.5 to 6.0 with lots of effort - so a one-click install sounds too good to be true.
I also feel like monthly costs should be a line item- rather than a summary statement - if spread conversion over the months and look at a multi-year range, and put it side by side with pricing... things seem more reflective of reality (or not?).
d.i.
Thanks for this list. I'm wondering though, how do you account for things like the differing activities, or the way you grade items, or the profiles and signon logs? For example, in BB when I want to put an update notification/announcement at the top of the default page, it's about 7-10 steps. In moodle it's 2-3...
Did you really do a one-click install with BB? That just seems unbelievable- not that I'm accusing you of anything, but schools I talk to can't even manage to upgrade from 5.5 to 6.0 with lots of effort - so a one-click install sounds too good to be true.
I also feel like monthly costs should be a line item- rather than a summary statement - if spread conversion over the months and look at a multi-year range, and put it side by side with pricing... things seem more reflective of reality (or not?).
d.i.
You are not seeing the rest of the study--only the hardware, software, admin part. I have quite a lot of data on students and instructors that get to some of these other things you mention.
Our IT guys did a clean install of Proprietary 7.0 on a brand new server with a brand new OS. We did not try to migrate anything over, which is the reason why it was simple. We also elected to skip straight to 7.0, which saved us a lot of effort. We also heard terrible stories of upgrading through the 6.x version.
I did the manual archive imports myself. Our old db was going fast and it wasn't worth the trouble to save it. More than half the faculty had already gone to the Moodle pilot server. That was pretty much apples to apples with Moodle--brand new install there also.
Actual monthly costs are varied. I have lots of hours/cost at the beginning and end of term and less in between. I had yearly license costs that had to be paid in a lump sum. I did not think averaging to yield monthly costs added anything to the story, so I elected to go with yearly costs. But it would be simple enough to set it up that way.
Thank you for your comments.
atw
Our IT guys did a clean install of Proprietary 7.0 on a brand new server with a brand new OS. We did not try to migrate anything over, which is the reason why it was simple. We also elected to skip straight to 7.0, which saved us a lot of effort. We also heard terrible stories of upgrading through the 6.x version.
I did the manual archive imports myself. Our old db was going fast and it wasn't worth the trouble to save it. More than half the faculty had already gone to the Moodle pilot server. That was pretty much apples to apples with Moodle--brand new install there also.
Actual monthly costs are varied. I have lots of hours/cost at the beginning and end of term and less in between. I had yearly license costs that had to be paid in a lump sum. I did not think averaging to yield monthly costs added anything to the story, so I elected to go with yearly costs. But it would be simple enough to set it up that way.
Thank you for your comments.
atw
What's notable is that a little bird told me de Anza has actually asked to have a moodle site set up. As it appears, Foothill/deAnza are the same or partner schools- and so it would seem indicative of things that they are wanting to work with moodle.
D.I.
You should try to get DI Von Brieson to
come over there for a talk, he is one of the top Moodle presenters I
know of and a faculty member/Program Chair at Central Piedmont CC in
North Carolina.
Jacob- it's a bit belated, but I've recently had some similar conversations here. The things I'd want Sakai-wanters to think hard about (and research) are:
- Is there a one (or few) click install or is it an endless figuring out of which modules you want and don't?
- Is there a basic standard backup and restore for the standard install? (when I asked Sakai presenters 6 months ago, there was no clear process for this - just for about 3 modules)
- Can you easily find developers who can easily understand the foundational code base?
- Is there a thriving community using it and discussing it at the same time - that is, can you drop in, ask some questions, and get some applicable responses (like you usually can here)?
- Does it do all the usual stuff (forums, quizzes, digests, wiki's etc...)?
- Is there a continuing support model- and what happens if that model fails? (by support I mean some kind of org that keeps managing the builds and versions)
- how well does it run on a single mid-level server?
- what kind of add-ons are folks developing and contributing back to the community? (a nod to Michael Penney on this with regards to moodle)
- can a techie just install it at home on a spare box and play with it, or are there some more complicated setup requirements?
- Where are the live deployments?
- How many users/tests/installations are there?
- What language packs are available?
- Is unicode supported?
- How is ADA, 508, IMS, QTI, SCORM, etc.. supported?
- How well are modules integrated, and who enforces design standards across all modules?
- How many lines of code are included in total, and how much did they cost per line (ok, ok, I'm stretching here...)
So that's off the cuff. I think the "wow, MIT and Stanford" affect is present, but silly. Do you really want an application developed by committees of folks in big bureacratic institutions - or by a lean, mean group of hard-core coders and users who are just like the LMS users around the world- people who teach, and want to use technology to do so?
I think any delving into the points above, if answered truthfully and completely, will create a huge question mark around Sakai.
It's worth noting too, that I think that BlackCT's strategy is to hold up Sakai as the open-source competition - leaving out any mention of moodle- and then to blast Sakai full of holes by pointing out these issues (listed above). So by carefully framing the debate as a BlackCT vs Sakai and NOT BlackCT vs. Moodle, they can easily win... claiming that it's really a BlackCT vs. Open Source battle that they've won.
Let's hope everyone sees thru it. It's critical that we all keep moodle on everyobody's tongue EVERY time this debate comes up- Moodle can hold its own and then some in a head-to-head comparison with BB or WebCT - but it has to be in the competition to begin with! This also means going on a limb and in some cases PAYING to have someone present moodle (travel at least) since there is not suit and briefcase toting salesforce to fund the trip.
d.i.
While I want to like Sakai, I too am worried about it playing into the hands of Open Source critics and unfairly overshadowing Moodle's mindshare in certain markets.
Though at the end of the day I feel it's just a bit too 'enterprisey' and as long as they keep actively selling it on that point, it can't cause too many problems.
- Its not a religious war
- Its not the better technology
- Its not the important name of partners ...
- Its the realisation of YOUR pedagogical concept. There is not the one and only concept - this is unique and depents ...
Now you may evaluate for a long time ...depending on lon lasting experiences with E-Learning - Systemes
- or belive thousends of persons with a lot of experience
- use a working system, which exist and you may start inbetween days
- use the knowledge of thousend users (theoreticans and practitioners) from small and huge organisations - coherent and adapted)
Developments like Sakai often satisfy the sientific curiosity of organisations and there will be no need for solutions for the present and long lasting success. Just an academic discussion. We have some of such expensive crashlandings in Europe, which where driven by universities and companies and payed by the EU.
And now - most of them use moodle - any question?
Peter