Moodle vs Google Classroom

Moodle vs Google Classroom

by leon rossouw -
Number of replies: 24

I see many schools are using google classroom during the corona virus shutdown.

I can’t find specific reasons why they should use Moodle instead. Most of the reasons offered on the net are quite general.

Then there are also contradictions. Some say that google classroom say that google classroom do not have automated quizzes and test https://elearningindustry.com/google-classroom-review-pros-and-cons-of-using-google-classroom-in-elearning Yet the net is full of tutorials that show how to automate quizzes  on google classroom.

Some comments on this forum say that google classroom is not a fully-fledged LMS but they do not say exactly why it isn’t. 

CAN ANYONE HELP ME? WHAT ARE THE SPECIFIC COMPELLING BENEFITS OF MOODLE OVER GOOGLE CLASSROOM at a MACRO LEVEL

Are these reasons perhaps valid?

Is Moodle better at scale? Google is good for a few one-off classrooms and Moodle offers better support for a curriculum that spans over an extended period?

Google Classroom is ok for a class but not for managing a series of classes across different school subjects with multiple teachers and large student numbers?

You cannot export or import google classroom lessons, each teach teacher needs to a create a new lesson each time?

Moodle takes pressure off the teachers, google classroom adds more work pressure to teachers?

What else is there?

Thanks,

Leon Rossouw


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In reply to leon rossouw

Re: Moodle vs Google Classroom

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators

The point is, one can not talk for the whole world. Surely there are teachers for whom Google Classroom satisfy their needs. Of course there are others who are forced, either from the management or because they don't have the resources to run Moodle. (Don't forget, Google Classroom is a service, Moodle is only software.)

You are right that the regulars here have a low opinion on Google Classroom. What did you expect?

You seem to know Google Classroom well (I don't) and attested some severe limitations of it (for you). Then why don't you to switch to Moodle? Why do you think you have to go on a crusade to kill Google Classroom?

P.S. @Mod: I would delete your second post. This is a voluntary forum, 24 h silence is not a deadly silence.

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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Moodle vs Google Classroom

by leon rossouw -
Thank you Visvanath for your reply.
(24hr silence) I was just trying to provoke an answer. I am a committed moodle user. There are many schools in this time of corona virus crises who suddenly need to consider online. They would appreciate some advice as to their best online option from experts such as yourself, and others on this forum. I was hoping someone could offer some concrete answers.

I don't know google classroom , I bought a book on Amazon, I have gone through it and have started making a list of Moodle's advantages. If other members could add their list of google short comings then I will add it to mine and publish here as a comprehensive answer.

Perhaps you can use your influence to help me with this

Thanks,
Leon Rossouw
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In reply to leon rossouw

Re: Moodle vs Google Classroom

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
My influence? Ha, ha, ha! I wonder how big my influence is in my own family. smile

On the rabbit hole Google. You can't change the fate of others (be happy if you are in charge of yours). Yes, it is hard to watch, specially seeing people walking in to the hole fully knowingly. Other than sending them flowers, I don't have an idea. May be you can join forces with Chad. ;)
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In reply to leon rossouw

Re: Moodle vs Google Classroom

by Colin Fraser -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Testers
Hi Leon,
The biggest issues I have with things like Google Classrooms and Microsoft Teams and Cisco's WebEx and such are things like costs, who ultimately controls the data? Maintaining user confidentiality when Google has been caught out using gathered student data from Classrooms in marketing campaigns. What is the use of using limited tools that were never specifically designed as LMS's but have been adapted to that purpose. Moodle has always been an LMS, and while I have suggested that it could branch out into SMS as well, this is not a popular idea.

In these days of Covid-19, though, it is perhaps a better option for Moodle to develop, in parallel, a suite of tools that includes an SMS, specific video conferencing tools, an online whiteboard that can be controlled to allow both restricted and collaborative use in one session. As well, a closer partnership with Catalyst(NZ) and Mahara could prove extremely beneficial. Of course, by the time this is done, the pressure will likely be off, but the fundamental ideas remain. OK, we already have some of these things, but one core application with lots of plugins would be helpful. (And btw, I haven't looked at the Moodle Roadmap for a while..mmm better go and look.)
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In reply to Colin Fraser

Re: Moodle vs Google Classroom

by leon rossouw -
Thankyou Collin for your reply. It’s much appreciated.

Many schools are not sure what to do in this time of crisis. The Moodle community can make a huge difference to these schools as well as the Moodle brand by offering them some clarity on their choices. Many of them are searching this forum for answers since the comparisons offered on Google search appears to me to be light-weight and paid promotional reviews that in my experience confuses one even more.

Here are some of my conclusions at a big picture level, without going into much detail. Moodle creates COURSES. Google creates CLASSROOMS. The difference is quite significant.

Moodle courses are mapped out accordingly to the curriculum. It gives a forward and backward view of learning activities, resources and progress of learners and teachers against the syllabus and learning plan. Courses can be exported and used year after year and Its automation takes huge pressure of the teachers.

Google classroom creates classrooms in social media format, where you can view one or two classes at a time. You can export a class but not a course.  The teacher needs to be actively involved all the time, this creates extra work and additional pressure on teachers. Historically this has been one of the major objections to e Learning at schools.

Google classroom has no LMS administrator. Moodle is better at institutional oversight of learners and teachers by departmental and academic heads. With google classroom this is virtually impossible. A school of 800 learners have roughly 200 classes PER DAY to monitor and manage. But with Moodle you only have roughly 35 COURSES PER ANNUM to monitor and manage on the same scenario.

Moodle can bulk upload learners and teachers and automatically assign them to courses groups and cohorts. So, you can even track who has never used the system and follow up on that. In Google classroom the learner needs to join individual classes and if they don’t you can’t track it.

Eventually schools will need to scale up and Google Classroom users will have upgrade to a proper LMS of some sort. That means learners and teachers will have to get used to new system yet again. This creates huge resistance against any new system.

So, it’s better for the school to start as they mean to carry on and use a proper LMS to begin with. Google Classroom may be the quickest and easiest entry into e learning for a school , it will soon turn into massive burden for teachers and lose support e learning, perhaps forever. Any proper LMS will be a better choice than Google Classroom.

Many object that Moodle is ugly and difficult to use. I believe that my organisation has solved that problem. See for yourself http://nextgenlms.co.za/

I will add more critical differences, if other members of the community also make a constructive input.

Regards Leon Rossouw
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In reply to leon rossouw

Re: Moodle vs Google Classroom

by Mary Cooch -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators
Hello Leon and thanks for both your and Colin's responses. I can only speak for Moodle, having only ten minutes' experience of Google classroom a few years back. I agree that Moodle works better when it is a whole school organisational thing- Google classroom is often picked up by individual teachers when their school doesn't have an institutional LMS. On the other hand, now with MoodleCloud, individual teachers can manage their own Moodle sites.

As a quick aside, Leon, please give credit to Moodle Pty Ltd in the videos on your site. (There are also 3.8 videos available on our YouTube channel)
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In reply to Colin Fraser

Re: Moodle vs Google Classroom

by James Steerpike -

I have been teaching my regular classes for up to 30 hours a week for months. Every teacher is different but this is my experience with  video-conferencing and Moodle.

Like a classroom teacher, I must talk to my students, show them written and audio visual material, ask questions and set assignments. What is invaluable is the ability of students to access these materials after class especially if they have network problems. What works for me is Moodle screen shared over one of the several video conferencing apps I have tried. Each  Moodle section is demonstrated, questions asked over audio, and exercises provided. Anyone who has worked with Moodle knows the advantages of the integration of source and automatically marked assignments in one place over Powerpoints and PDF and the remoteness of online learning makes clear instructions for students critical.

I don't see a sufficient need to integrate video conferencing into Moodle which outweighs the work required and the complexity added. Moodle can not track student involvement in the video conference and all it seems to add is scheduling and a link. I have chat, screen sharing, and a whiteboard already and additional features like breakout rooms are more likely to be available from third parties than from an integrated solution.


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In reply to James Steerpike

Re: Moodle vs Google Classroom

by Colin Fraser -
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That is an interesting perspective James, one I really hadn't considered and you're probably right, the benefit gained may be outweighed by the additional complexity, not to mention cost.

However, having said that, as the CEO of the Dark Side has now admitted they were wrong about Open Source, and (so I understand) they are moving a number of projects towards Open Source, can we expect to see Teams develop an LTI interface? Wouldn't that be easier to integrate?

I don't resile from my earlier comments, but if there are existing tools that can be used, why not take advantage of that?
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In reply to Colin Fraser

Re: Moodle vs Google Classroom

by Dave Perry -
Picture of Testers
It would be nice if there was a dedicated Teams LTI. Canvas (our now primary LMS) have launched a Teams Meeting plugin, which doesn't even force you to sign in to microsoft for students to access it! Currently that means you can't use the whiteboard feature as a student guest, but we aren't sure if that means IT have to allow guest users to access whiteboards outside the org OR the capability isn't there.
Currently our IT don't allow Teams for students on 365 - that is changing later this year we're told, then hopefully life will be easier.
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In reply to leon rossouw

Re: Moodle vs Google Classroom

by Cris Fuhrman -
I'm late to this party, but I've taught 3 university courses with both (two semesters so far with Google Classroom), as my university allows us to use either or both. I also used Zoom (for lecture periods) and Discord (chat) for the lab exercises.

Here's a summary of my experience (as of this semester):

  • Overall, GC (Google Classrooms) has a smoother user interface, and so it's quicker to get things done. It's faster to create a homework or a quiz than in Moodle.
  • If I want to create a course (or reuse one from last semester), GC is easier. The Moodle interface to create material from another course involves lots of clicking, and takes several minutes to run on our school's server.
  • I put all content on a Google Drive, including recorded videos of class from Zoom.
  • Enrollment works well on both (my university takes care of it, there's a GSuite mailing list that facilitates sharing to my students). Students are not auto-enrolled however in GC. They have to accept it and some students don't know their Google account because most classes use Moodle only.
  • Moodle has more powerful features for pedagogical activities. This is what I think is meant by a "full-fledged LMS." Take for example the notions of teams, a bank of questions with category and random questions from them, scoring of questions, regrading, statistics, etc. Many of these things either don't exist in GC or are very superficial. Moodle wins by a long shot, but... 
  • In Moodle you're at the mercy of the screens full of options (a good example is the quiz review options) and the lack of streamlined work flow. Some features (like robust grading with rubrics) are broken and have been for a long time. These are reasons (during the pandemic) I decided to try GC.  
  • All homework done in GC is via GSuite (Google Docs, etc.). The collaboration features are very powerful, and I find it very easy to give students quick feedback on work they do. The Rubric feature is pretty nice in GC, and it's robust, so I prefer grading homework that way. The GC app for iPad lets you annotate with a pen (it automatically creates a PDF document of the students work) and that is very user friendly. Students, however, don't always see the PDF with the feedback because I think the GC interface for students needs more love.
  • GC has a "feed" like many social media, which was great for discussions when I wasn't using Discord. Now, nearly all forum-like discussion is done in Discord. Nobody bothers with GC feed or Moodle forums or email for the most part. I created discord channels for the various topics and it works well. Students know Discord from gaming, so they feel quite at home there.
  • I did homework and exercises in GC because of the nice collaboration tools in GSuite that are slick. I did reading quizzes in Moodle because I give multiple attempts and keep the best one (something you can't do in GC, not to mention setting up the timing constraints for students who have learning disabilities). Both systems let me export grades to my universities grading system. 

So, I've been opportunistic: 

  • Google Drive wins for storing content (just save it locally and it syncs, no clicks to put it into an LMS, but you do have to make a folder structure), 
  • Google Classrooms for homework, 
  • Moodle for reading quizzes and exams, 
  • Discord for async/sync communication.

My students say they don't like having 4 systems, but they're in information technology and in the end it works well. This semester they've been pretty happy, but I have yet to see the reviews... Last summer I got some of the best evaluations of my 20+ years of teaching, so I know they were happy.

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In reply to Cris Fuhrman

Re: Moodle vs Google Classroom

by Colin Fraser -
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Interesting reading Chris, but you have not, actually, said anything that I and dozens of others haven't said at some point, but some things are improving, a bit too slowly, even glacially, but are getting better. There is one advantage that Moodle has over all the other systems you have mentioned, it's Open Source.
Consider this: Your classes are in IT, at a tertiary level, (which as you are Canadian, you should understand that term but for all you lot from south of the border, it means University). There is absolutely nothing wrong with you, as group projects for your students, taking something from Moodle and making it better. I agree, and have spoken on this many times, the UI is clunky and not always user friendly. How about designing an new UI and implementing it? Or, if that's too big, then perhaps something a little less ambitious, a plugin that provides a better type of wiki, or an upgrade to some aspect of Moodle. I know, it's not always possible to do these things and there are a lot of issues, like copyright, ownership etc., to get around, but as a lowly secondary school teacher, my students could never do anything like that.

I still come back to my first point, above, you don't know who is accessing your data, whereas with a local Moodle you do. Given Big Tech's record in this area, I am kind of thinking using one of their services for online storage is not as confidential as it could be. (Waiting for the howls of protest now!)

EDIT: And btw, would you believe, we are now 21 years into the 21st century and I got some colleagues, much younger than me, still talking about 21st Century Learning practices as if they are new things. They are having serious difficulty in breaking away from the Word/PowerPoint/Draw they have been using since their first year of teaching. And this is after a year of Covid... unbelievable! And I had someone else, a leader who's job it was to look for innovation, of all people, say to me that Moodle didn't do too much for him as a learning tool. I suspect for some of the reasons you mention above. 

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In reply to Colin Fraser

Re: Moodle vs Google Classroom

by Cris Fuhrman -

> There is absolutely nothing wrong with you, as group projects for your students, taking something from Moodle and making it better. 

It's maybe just a phenomenon at my university, but PHP is not a popular technology for students. It's listed as number 10 on this list (at least it made the list!). There are attractive mobile apps and modern frameworks like React/Angular/etc. yelling for their attention in youtube videos, etc. I suspect that Moodle's mobile apps have gotten much more love than its clunky web GUI for instructors for this reason. 10 years ago it was my hope that the Apps would solve the problems because that's what young people want to work on, but I still can't create a quiz or even see my questions on the Moodle app at my university.

Google Summer of Code is another avenue, but on this Moodle page there is no activity since 2019. I suspect it's not as easy as it seems for other reasons than those I can see or understand currently. 

> I agree, and have spoken on this many times, the UI is clunky and not always user friendly. How about designing an new UI and implementing it? 

One projects at my uni paid students to design a Moodle plug-in (for intra-team evaluations), but it was not maintained as far as I know. This was a classic software engineering pitfall. Nobody realized back-porting was such a pain and that the plug-in would not update itself! 

I have done some things within my control, for example proposing how to enter dates in a more user-friendly way because I use a lot of reading quizzes every semester, and finally providing a hack for the browser at https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=363358 since that bug never got any love. I gave the benefit of the doubt and suspect it wouldn't work with Japanese GUIs (even though Google uses a similar date format). 

I also developed with students support for editing questions outside the Moodle user interface https://fuhrmanator.github.io/2020/12/18/Creating-questions-quickly-with-GIFT.html - Grammars are classic Computer Science tools that allow generating software quickly, but I failed to convince anyone inside Moodle it was worth it. People do contribute to the project we started outside of Moodle, I suspect because it's working in Javascript and works in a popular editor (Google Forms and Microsoft Visual Studio Code). But maybe after the pandemic is (one day) over, the interest in GIFT outside Moodle will wane. A linguistics professor contacted me because he wanted to distribute questions for his book in GIFT, to make it easier for instructors to use in a course. That was a fun Zoom call and pretty modern thinking.

Regarding data, you're so right. At our university students must opt-in (during registration) to having their "identifying data" stored in Google's platform, since Quebec law doesn't allow it to be stored in servers outside the province (or that is how I understand the law, I am not a lawyer). So, a student who doesn't opt-in has a userid that doesn't identify her by name. That partially solves the privacy problem (but I have read papers how Google can identify people by other means...). These platforms are harvesting data, and nobody should trust companies that do those things. Moodle's server runs on physical machines on our campus, and there's no data being harvested outside.

On the other hand (and I know this as a software engineer), having aggregate data on how a system is really used allows making decisions on where to spend resources to improve features or even find bugs in GUI design (and fixes, too). So, the data that companies collect is not all bad. I'm unaware if MoodleHQ even asks if universities want to contribute such data (a lot of open source and "free" software people are against the idea for obvious reasons, I have worked on open source projects where the idea is shot down from the go). But I think makes it hard to decide which features are truly useful in a 20-year-old system with an aging design.

> And I had someone else, a leader who's job it was to look for innovation, of all people, say to me that Moodle didn't do too much for him as a learning tool. I suspect for some of the reasons you mention above. 

I think it's true that some of the learning curve and overly complex features turn new people off quickly. Luckily we have a pedagogical team at our university who are trusted and they can vouch for the benefits and hold the hands of new instructors to work past the cruft. I realize I am fortunate to have the choice of 4+ tools to get my job done. I wanted to share my perspective to help improve Moodle.

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In reply to Cris Fuhrman

Re: Moodle vs Google Classroom

by Colin Fraser -
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Wow, you're way ahead and obviously know a lot more about this than a number of devs I suspect..smile

> I suspect that Moodle's mobile apps have gotten much more love than its clunky web GUI

At a Moodle conference a few years ago, in Sydney, Martin did say that he thought that mobile tech would eventually replace desktops and laptops would evolve into something more akin to tablets and mobile phones than desktops. That would imply exactly what you have stated here would happen, some things would be de-emphasized in favour of newer tech.

It is also no wonder that PHP is falling off as a tool to learn, it's not as easy to pick up as its younger counterparts, it's "old" tech now and anything old should be discarded, it seems.
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In reply to Colin Fraser

Re: Moodle vs Google Classroom

by Cris Fuhrman -
> it's "old" tech now and anything old should be discarded, it seems.

Yep, it doesn't take long for tech to be "old" 😁 especially when it's web-based. Some students a few years ago (when MongoDB was first popularized) were saying we should remove SQL courses from our program because they were old. SQL is even more popular than PHP according to https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#most-popular-technologies (which is not so scientific because it's still mostly from StackOverflow users even though they tried to reach out more, but among many students who use SO, the results are very "respected").
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In reply to Cris Fuhrman

Re: Moodle vs Google Classroom

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Hi Chris

I am glad that Colin raised the data stealing issue. From your answer I see that you are fully aware of the fact. We three had a half a century of analog life which was Google-free. Our students are being harvested from their school age. The next generation is already registered even before they are born.

The right to forget is just polit talk. The web just doesn't forget, specially the big players don't. They prey on their subjects and proven their dishonesty often enough. They simply don't care, they are the new rulers of humanity.

> Regarding data, you're so right. At our university students must opt-in (during registration) to having their "identifying data" stored in Google's platform, since Quebec law doesn't allow it to be stored in servers outside the province (or that is how I understand the law, I am not a lawyer). So, a student who doesn't opt-in has a userid that doesn't identify her by name.

Do you believe that?

> That partially solves the privacy problem (but I have read papers how Google can identify people by other means...). These platforms are harvesting data, and nobody should trust companies that do those things.

OK, so we are in agreement.

The next big difference:
> Moodle's server runs on physical machines on our campus, and there's no data being harvested outside.

 Moodle is Open Sourcen and Google Classroom is SaaS. The two are not even comparable!

N.B. The "quiz and the question bank" sub-topic is breaking in the Quiz forum: https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=417599#p1693609.
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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Moodle vs Google Classroom

by Cris Fuhrman -
Hello Visvanath Ratnaweera,

>> So, a student who doesn't opt-in has a userid that doesn't identify her by name.

> Do you believe that?

It is anonymous to me. For example, when I receive work in Google Classroom or emails (using their Gmail) from such students, I must cross reference their IDs that look like "ab123456" with the university grading tool (or the Moodle server which also uses that ID) to find their real names. 

You're obviously aware of the data collection strategies, so you know about shadow profiles that exist for anyone using a Google browser or search engine or whose friends are using a form of social media. 

But ethics of a company are not a reason to ignore why Google Classrooms or Canvas are popular or how Moodle could be streamlined/improved compared to them. It reminds me of the Oath of Non-Allegiance, which I signed years ago: https://www.infoq.com/news/2010/07/oath-of-nonallegiance/

> Moodle is Open Sourcen and Google Classroom is SaaS. The two are not even comparable!

Perhaps I don't understand your comment entirely, but I would argue that they are comparable, especially to administrators at institutions where a majority of an instructors have been "forced" to go online and there's no intrinsic motivation, or budget for "content creators" who will do the tedious clicking and pedagogical designing. This problem has always been the reason only a handful of instructors used Moodle (beyond storing their course slides) at my university prior to the pandemic.

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In reply to Cris Fuhrman

Re: Moodle vs Google Classroom

by Colin Fraser -
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>there's no intrinsic motivation, or budget for "content creators" who will do the tedious clicking and pedagogical designing.
This is a perennial argument, and worse in high schools, in Oz anyway. In recent years teachers have been subject to a large increase in the bureaucratic demands of the job, leaving a lot of teachers with less time to prepare materials. Worse, it is not always easy to get a sense of classroom abilities of students, which can make tailoring of classes for specific students a lot more difficult and the idea of individuation of learning becomes a nonsense. Ideally, there should be modules for different skill levels that could be easily imported into a course, but who writes them?

The "Oath of non Allegiance" was, to me when I first heard of it, something of a nonsense too. It assumes that you, as a teacher, instructor, educator, know what all the options of tools of learning, instructing, teaching, available to you are. So at what point do we, as teachers, instructors, educators, get to find these things out, learn how to use them, assess their suitability for each circumstance? For some things, Canvas might be better, or GC is better for others, but as an all round tool, Moodle is still the most readily available and accessible. Of course, Canvas and GC cost, so taking the capitalism out of learning will help considerably, I suggest.   
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In reply to Colin Fraser

Re: Moodle vs Google Classroom

by Cris Fuhrman -

> The "Oath of non Allegiance" was, to me when I first heard of it, something of a nonsense too. It assumes that you, as a teacher, instructor, educator, know what all the options of tools of learning, instructing, teaching, available to you are. So at what point do we, as teachers, instructors, educators, get to find these things out, learn how to use them, assess their suitability for each circumstance? 

Interesting. I interpret it rather as we do NOT know all the options, and so we must remain humble. Because there are constantly new innovations coming, we must not make an allegiance to only one product. It's the opposite of the Apple Mac Guy vs PC Guy ads that were popular in the 2000s. The various stakeholders (Apple, Microsoft, Google, etc. including the various flavors of open source movements) want you to pick an allegiance, because their survival depends on it. But I do empathize with the challenge of having to keep up! Moodle is interesting because so much of it has been created by its users, but the users are also the designers, so it's like wearing two hats.

> For some things, Canvas might be better, or GC is better for others, but as an all round tool, Moodle is still the most readily available and accessible. Of course, Canvas and GC cost, so taking the capitalism out of learning will help considerably, I suggest. 

I am not here to say I reject Moodle or GC, even though I chose one over the other for different activities in my courses. Since several people (at my uni, anyway) are happily employed thanks to Moodle's learning curve, Moodle also costs. GC to universities is virtually free, and I'd venture requires much less hand holding (although it clearly does much less). I think here the comparison is closer.

By non-allegiance, I mean not rejecting ideas from other solutions because they're not Moodle.

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In reply to Cris Fuhrman

Re: Moodle vs Google Classroom

by Colin Fraser -
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>By non-allegiance, I mean not rejecting ideas from other solutions because they're not Moodle.

I do agree, despite how poorly my comment above was worded, we should always be open to new and better tools. The issues I have faced is bureaucratic indifference, an unwillingness by many educators to be non-partisan, to just accept the most immediate solutions, to use anything that has no real learning curve, to use what is most easy for them. I have heard so many justifications for not using Moodle I wish I recorded them all. I could make small fortune by writing a best-selling guide/joke book for developing work avoidance strategies..😂
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In reply to Cris Fuhrman

Re: Moodle vs Google Classroom

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Hi Chris

We have classical case of two people looking at the same picture and seeing different things.
wink

Case 1:
>>> So, a student who doesn't opt-in has a userid that doesn't identify her by name.

>> Do you believe that?

> It is anonymous to me.

To you, Yes. But not to Google! As we all know Google also knows much more about the student. The university connection just enrich that data.

> You're obviously aware of the data collection strategies, so you know about shadow profiles that exist for anyone using a Google browser or search engine or whose friends are using a form of social media.

Yes, shadow profiles was one of the main questions the congress asked Zuckerberg in the investigation in to the Facebook-Cambridge Analytica data scandal which he tried to side-step. I safely assume Google does the same. To those who have missed it: Get informed, it is a monstrous idea only a megalomaniac like Zuckerberg can think of.

> But ethics of a company are not a reason to ignore why Google Classrooms or Canvas are popular or how Moodle could be streamlined/improved compared to them.

Really? Let's say, you want to start a business and need money. You got offers from banks, all talk of an interest rate. Then comes a non-bank and say, we not only ask for zero interest, you can also keep the money. Just report us everything what your customers are doing. Very convenient for you and you would like to give him the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately you've seen the headlines that person has been making, about trouble with the legal systems internationally. Do your ethics call you or not?

Case 2:
>> Moodle is Open Source and Google Classroom is SaaS. The two are not even comparable!

> Perhaps I don't understand your comment entirely, but I would argue that they are comparable,

You are right, from an utilitarian point of view, as the end users perceive the tool one can compare Moodle and Google Classroom. But from an empowerment point of view, the Open Source Moodle allows you to host your LMS, you own the data whereas on Closed Source and Google-hosted you own nothing. It is worse, they prey on your and your students data. (See Case 1)

> especially to administrators at institutions where a majority of an instructors have been "forced" to go online and there's no intrinsic motivation, or budget for "content creators" who will do the tedious clicking and pedagogical designing.

Sounds like your institution is incapable of providing the IT service the (some) staff needs. We can't help you. Or, are you asking the Moodle developers to cripple their work in the hope that your institution will be able to support Moodle?

> This problem has always been the reason only a handful of instructors used Moodle (beyond storing their course slides) at my university prior to the pandemic.

I have my own environment, or rather two in two continents. I won't point at a single reason why some instructors adapt to a LMS well and others don't. I don't even argue that a web-based, computer-driven education to be better - other than during the pandemic.
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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Moodle vs Google Classroom

by Colin Fraser -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Testers
Hi Visvanath,

> Google also knows much more about the student. The university connection just enrich that data.
> Yes, shadow profiles was one of the main questions the congress asked Zuckerberg

Yes, agreed, the same comment..smile But then: ".. ethics of a company.." These sorts of statements make me laugh. After reading Robert McNamara's "Fog of War", I have a great deal of difficulty in putting those two words in the same sentence. Zuckerberg's, and et al, actions are completely acceptable in the post-truth world, they rely upon the Harvard Business Model, "Profit is not the first consideration, it's the ONLY consideration." Gene Roddenberry got it right when he outlined the idea of the Ferrenghi "Rules of Acquisition." Might think it fictional, but it has become real in recent years and Harvard dropouts embody those ideals more than anyone. 

>Do your ethics call you or not?
erm... "what does that mean?" College graduates from colleges where ethics classes are a one hour lecture in a 3 year course or have been dropped from courses altogether. Looked at a law course lately? 

But, we're getting really OT now...smile 



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In reply to Colin Fraser

Re: ".. ethics of a company.." and more [OT]

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
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Hi Colin

I never use the phrase ".. ethics of a company..". Not because I listened to McNamara - what do you expect, he was the villain of our generation. No, because ethics is a part of (human) conscience, well at least in my understanding. I can imagine people extending the "concept" to other areas. Ironically Google was building an "ethical AI" and apparently failed: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/21/04/06/2154256/google-ai-research-manager-quits-after-two-ousted-from-group. Look at the timing - just days ago.

Same thing with the Ferengi Rules Of Acquisition. Never heard, but seen enough. They reigned the world and filled news for four years at a stretch.

Also, similar to the conscience, ethics can not be taught. Those poor students of the law course you mentioned.
wink

N.B. We are deep in to OT, I changed the subject line, in case the mods want to pull this discussion to the Lounge.

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In reply to Colin Fraser

Re: Moodle vs Google Classroom

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Comparing Moodle and Google Classroom one difference which became apparent is that violent shakes are normal in Google land. In the news:

https://tech.slashdot.org/story/22/01/19/206221/google-requiring-all-g-suite-legacy-free-edition-users-to-start-paying-for-workspace-this-year

https://tech.slashdot.org/story/22/01/27/2133254/google-relents-legacy-g-suite-users-will-be-able-to-migrate-to-free-accounts

How was it on Moodle during the 20 years?
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