That sounds pretty pricey. I got bids from Moodle Partners last year, and I asked for quite a lot! The internal budget review committee turned me down, but the most expensive partner bid was around 1/2 what you report!! I would not think it a good idea unless this un-named company is providing many more services than just basic hosting.
atw
atw
I am going to publish the contract and sole source documentation. I think it will be illuminating ;=}
This is a very interesting topic. It might be enlightening to compare these types
of costs to other ASP/Outsourcing pricing, regardless of platform. Schoolloop
comes to mind in the K12 arena. I believe they charge ~ $3/student/year.
Their focus is more infrastructure based than LCMS, but seems to be a reasonable
business model.
of costs to other ASP/Outsourcing pricing, regardless of platform. Schoolloop
comes to mind in the K12 arena. I believe they charge ~ $3/student/year.
Their focus is more infrastructure based than LCMS, but seems to be a reasonable
business model.
Priority access to the golf club? 
Edit - added notes below:
Having said that - in many case IT outsourcing is done with little or no knowledge of the field, and so a fearsome buyer that finds a seller that seems trustworthy will say "save me, whatever the cost".
Selling IT products can be a pop-psy field fest -- Oracle played it with masterly strokes back in the day when DBs were new, complex and expensive beasts. If you read the stories about Larry's aggressive FUD tactics, and the general approach that the Oracle team had to sales, it's just out of American Psycho
@Catalyst we've put bids that were costed 1/30th of the costliest bid, while outdoing all the other bids in features offered. One client I remember took us on "just to see what happened" - as they had budgeted much higher. Two years later, they are still going with Moodle, and funding module development, and I suspect they still haven't spent 1/4 of their original budget
But it takes a leap of faith. I've lost bids even when cheaper and better then other offers. It's pop psy, the "can't be top-notch and cheap" instinct beats the facts quite often.
That's why I posted the sloccount costings a while ago.
Edit - added notes below:
Having said that - in many case IT outsourcing is done with little or no knowledge of the field, and so a fearsome buyer that finds a seller that seems trustworthy will say "save me, whatever the cost".
Selling IT products can be a pop-psy field fest -- Oracle played it with masterly strokes back in the day when DBs were new, complex and expensive beasts. If you read the stories about Larry's aggressive FUD tactics, and the general approach that the Oracle team had to sales, it's just out of American Psycho
@Catalyst we've put bids that were costed 1/30th of the costliest bid, while outdoing all the other bids in features offered. One client I remember took us on "just to see what happened" - as they had budgeted much higher. Two years later, they are still going with Moodle, and funding module development, and I suspect they still haven't spent 1/4 of their original budget
But it takes a leap of faith. I've lost bids even when cheaper and better then other offers. It's pop psy, the "can't be top-notch and cheap" instinct beats the facts quite often.
That's why I posted the sloccount costings a while ago.
Outsourcing decisions are frequently wierd ... my local state government here recently gave a large overseas company A$30 million to develop an LMS from scratch!
That is not only weird but quite sad.
Think of all that money could have been put towards if they had just looked at what was available to them already. That would pay for an awful lot of support across the state for Moodle implementation in pre-school, primary, secondary schools and tertiary institutes. You could almost weep.
Think of all that money could have been put towards if they had just looked at what was available to them already. That would pay for an awful lot of support across the state for Moodle implementation in pre-school, primary, secondary schools and tertiary institutes. You could almost weep.
I wasn't very clear, sorry - it's not that they didn't pick Moodle that is sad to me. Moodle may not have been a good fit for their requirements, I don't know, there wasn't a tender.
The main problem is just about ANY other solution one can imagine would have been cheaper (even other proprietary systems). And even worse, the resulting product will not even belong to the taxpayers who paid for it. The foreign company building the software will be keeping an exclusive proprietary license over it (allowing them to sell it elsewhere etc).
But this is unrelated to the main discussion here, sorry for taking it off-topic.
The main problem is just about ANY other solution one can imagine would have been cheaper (even other proprietary systems). And even worse, the resulting product will not even belong to the taxpayers who paid for it. The foreign company building the software will be keeping an exclusive proprietary license over it (allowing them to sell it elsewhere etc).
But this is unrelated to the main discussion here, sorry for taking it off-topic.
Actually, I think you are dead on topic....
Capitalist countries (I was going to say western, but didn't want to exclude our neighbors down under) opine at length about the benefits of market economies, yet when the rubber meets the road one observes over and over situations where one does a double take...... especially in the US where Congress is now going to bail out major mortgage companies for making poor investments while they paid their executives millions a year in salaries (18 million in one case).
Capitalist countries (I was going to say western, but didn't want to exclude our neighbors down under) opine at length about the benefits of market economies, yet when the rubber meets the road one observes over and over situations where one does a double take...... especially in the US where Congress is now going to bail out major mortgage companies for making poor investments while they paid their executives millions a year in salaries (18 million in one case).
I have always stayed away from getting involved in the judgmental discussions that crop up from time to time in forums. I find that they rarely generate any productive dialogue or solutions but often generate tremendous negativity and damage to individual or company reputations.
However, I now find myself and my company in the midst of such a scurrilous attack. Mr. Grober, whom I don’t believe I have ever formally met, seems mightily offended that the Anchorage School District choose to contract with our company for support services as well as the cost of the contract.
Mr. Grober’s posts suggest to me that he is upset that he is not providing the Moodle services for the Anchorage School District. His posts and his wiki also suggest to me that Mr. Grober has long standing vendettas with the ASD to which those in this forum are not privy and perhaps an alternative agenda. His postings of his extensive freedom of information materials would be laughable if not for the damaging inferences of inpropriety possibly conveyed.
I feel the postings by Mr. Grober insinuate that I and my business partner, John Concilus, are engaged in some sort of shady, backroom, dealings; fleecing innocent and unknowing school districts of the publics’ money. Nothing is farther from the truth and despite my aversion to engaging in a dialogue I feel will ultimately add little if anything to the Moodle community, I now feel compelled to clarify who I am and what my company and business partner do in Alaskan Education.
My name is Chick Beckley. I am a retired Alaskan educator having worked 20 years in villages in rural Alaska as a teacher, principal, area principal, director of technology and assistant superintendent. Instructionally I have been involved in project and placed based education and worked in cross-curricular and multigraded classrooms. Administratively I have been involved in systemic educational change through standards based alignment, instruction and assessment. Technology has always been one means to an end – improved student achievement.
I have served on the board of the Alaska Society of Technology in Education (ASTE) for 4 years and as the president of this statewide organization. I have worked for years at the state and federal level to bring broadband connectivity to rural Alaska. I was a founding member and president of the Alaska Distance Learning Partnership (ADLP) and worked on statewide technology policy, which resulted in Federal FCC waivers for Alaskan school districts wishing to share e-rate funded Internet bandwidth in villages.
When I became eligible for full retirement in 2004 I had no desire to end my career in education and therefore, with business partner and fellow educator John Concilus, we formed Teachers4Schools. We provide a number of technology services to primarily to educational organizations in Alaska but also a few corporations. We solve problems for these organizations and help them implement systemic organizational change utilizing a number of open source tools, of which Moodle is but one. We provide a number of services other than the use of Moodle to meet a client’s needs. We provide staff development in a variety of areas as well as educational and technology consulting services. We are involved in the efforts to improve teacher recruitment and retention in the state and run the Alaska Teacher Placement website using open source tools. http://alaskateacher.org/doku.php
John Concilus and I were among the first few thousand downloads of Moodle and we’ve done nothing but work tirelessly to promote Moodle and open source solutions in the Alaskan education and business community http://teachers4schools.com/open/. I believe we are seen as the two biggest Moodle and open source evangelists in Alaska. We have spoken and presented at virtually every technology and distance learning oriented conference in Alaska, the statewide principal and superintendent conferences and several national venues promoting open source and Moodle. John has been invited to present at the Consortium for School Networking (CoSN) 2009 Annual Conference in Austin, Texas on innovative Web 2.0 solutions in the classroom. http://www.k12schoolnetworking.org/2009/cfp.cfm
We have given back to the open source community by collaborating with the Bering Strait School District to create what I believe is the most progressive standards based student information system available – the Data Analysis and Reporting Tool (DART). http://wiki.bssd.org/index.php/DART_System It is open source and free for anyone to download. We hope to develop integration with the Moodle grading system in the future.
We donate time, money, door prizes and our resources to support the statewide technology organization – ASTE. We have donated free Moodle resources to teachers and non-profits.
In short, we are active, contributing and well-known members of the Alaskan educational community. We are not fly-by night, sleazy, carpet-bagging opportunists. Both John Concilus and I have worked hard and produced much in the Alaskan educational system and we both are highly regarded by our colleagues and our counsel and services are sought out by educational organizations statewide.
Mr. Grober’s insinuation to the contrary is grossly ill informed and insulting. Should we be violating any trademarks or copyrights it is unintentional and I trust that Martin Dougiamas will inform us in his usual courteous and professional manner.
We will stand by our reputations and achievements and invite Mr. Grober to stand by his rather than use these forums as a platform for innuendo and character attacks through insinuation.
- Chick Beckley
However, I now find myself and my company in the midst of such a scurrilous attack. Mr. Grober, whom I don’t believe I have ever formally met, seems mightily offended that the Anchorage School District choose to contract with our company for support services as well as the cost of the contract.
Mr. Grober’s posts suggest to me that he is upset that he is not providing the Moodle services for the Anchorage School District. His posts and his wiki also suggest to me that Mr. Grober has long standing vendettas with the ASD to which those in this forum are not privy and perhaps an alternative agenda. His postings of his extensive freedom of information materials would be laughable if not for the damaging inferences of inpropriety possibly conveyed.
I feel the postings by Mr. Grober insinuate that I and my business partner, John Concilus, are engaged in some sort of shady, backroom, dealings; fleecing innocent and unknowing school districts of the publics’ money. Nothing is farther from the truth and despite my aversion to engaging in a dialogue I feel will ultimately add little if anything to the Moodle community, I now feel compelled to clarify who I am and what my company and business partner do in Alaskan Education.
My name is Chick Beckley. I am a retired Alaskan educator having worked 20 years in villages in rural Alaska as a teacher, principal, area principal, director of technology and assistant superintendent. Instructionally I have been involved in project and placed based education and worked in cross-curricular and multigraded classrooms. Administratively I have been involved in systemic educational change through standards based alignment, instruction and assessment. Technology has always been one means to an end – improved student achievement.
I have served on the board of the Alaska Society of Technology in Education (ASTE) for 4 years and as the president of this statewide organization. I have worked for years at the state and federal level to bring broadband connectivity to rural Alaska. I was a founding member and president of the Alaska Distance Learning Partnership (ADLP) and worked on statewide technology policy, which resulted in Federal FCC waivers for Alaskan school districts wishing to share e-rate funded Internet bandwidth in villages.
When I became eligible for full retirement in 2004 I had no desire to end my career in education and therefore, with business partner and fellow educator John Concilus, we formed Teachers4Schools. We provide a number of technology services to primarily to educational organizations in Alaska but also a few corporations. We solve problems for these organizations and help them implement systemic organizational change utilizing a number of open source tools, of which Moodle is but one. We provide a number of services other than the use of Moodle to meet a client’s needs. We provide staff development in a variety of areas as well as educational and technology consulting services. We are involved in the efforts to improve teacher recruitment and retention in the state and run the Alaska Teacher Placement website using open source tools. http://alaskateacher.org/doku.php
John Concilus and I were among the first few thousand downloads of Moodle and we’ve done nothing but work tirelessly to promote Moodle and open source solutions in the Alaskan education and business community http://teachers4schools.com/open/. I believe we are seen as the two biggest Moodle and open source evangelists in Alaska. We have spoken and presented at virtually every technology and distance learning oriented conference in Alaska, the statewide principal and superintendent conferences and several national venues promoting open source and Moodle. John has been invited to present at the Consortium for School Networking (CoSN) 2009 Annual Conference in Austin, Texas on innovative Web 2.0 solutions in the classroom. http://www.k12schoolnetworking.org/2009/cfp.cfm
We have given back to the open source community by collaborating with the Bering Strait School District to create what I believe is the most progressive standards based student information system available – the Data Analysis and Reporting Tool (DART). http://wiki.bssd.org/index.php/DART_System It is open source and free for anyone to download. We hope to develop integration with the Moodle grading system in the future.
We donate time, money, door prizes and our resources to support the statewide technology organization – ASTE. We have donated free Moodle resources to teachers and non-profits.
In short, we are active, contributing and well-known members of the Alaskan educational community. We are not fly-by night, sleazy, carpet-bagging opportunists. Both John Concilus and I have worked hard and produced much in the Alaskan educational system and we both are highly regarded by our colleagues and our counsel and services are sought out by educational organizations statewide.
Mr. Grober’s insinuation to the contrary is grossly ill informed and insulting. Should we be violating any trademarks or copyrights it is unintentional and I trust that Martin Dougiamas will inform us in his usual courteous and professional manner.
We will stand by our reputations and achievements and invite Mr. Grober to stand by his rather than use these forums as a platform for innuendo and character attacks through insinuation.
- Chick Beckley
Whoa there bucko..... scurrilous attacks? hidden agendas? As you have used up so much bandwidth to attack me, while I simply was airing the details of the deal, I will apologize in advance but have this in response:
- I don't have a wiki.
- I don't have the resources to provide Moodle services to even a fraction of the 50K students enrolled at ASD.
- Yes, I am mightily offended that once again while screaming about how short of money they are a public school system issued a sole source contract which as far as I can tell does not explain why they are contracting for services that could likely address the course needs of almost all its high school students at what appears to be a premium price.
- Considering the extensive testimony put on by ASD against open software when looking at purchasing an SMS, the fact that ASD did not appear to even solicit a proposal from a Moodle Partner while agreeing to pay more for services than it likely would have paid to a Moodle Partner is simply unexplainable.
- I asked for the contract and was told that I had to do an Alaska Public Records act request to obtain same. Otherwise I would not have been able to note the value of the contract as compared to services that could be had from Moodle Partners, as well as the extent of the services as compared to anticipated usage. I don't understand how it is laughable that the public wants to know how public money is being spent, or how that expenditure might reflect upon the Moodle community.
- As a person flogging his cred and rep as a long time educator I should not have to suggest that you use a spell checker.... the word is impropriety, not inpropriety, and an inference is what you take away from it, an implication is what I might suggest. That being said, I see no attack on anyone. What I see is public airing of a contract which seems to be skewed a bit, but of course everyone can infer what they will.
- What ever else you may do, the contract of course stands on its own, and it is pretty clear as far as what is provided and for what price.
- Doorprizes?
- I have to admit that I did ask Martin about your logo when the discussion over the infrimgement letter with Steve was going on not as a whistleblower but to understand Moodle policy. Martin's explanation suggested that he knew of your usage and that it had been approved. I have not raised the matter in this forum, Chick, you have.
- That is quite a bit of drumming you have done when the matter I raised in this forum is what will $13K buy. It would seem to me that you feel that you have some reason to feel defensive. I should point out that your post to this thread put me off a bit in that you did not identify yourself as involved in the company, but, again, that is for everyone to consider on its merits, isn't it? http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=17736
- Finally.... I am not sure about what you claim I am insinuating here (as opposed to what you may be inferring) but it seems to me that I have at most suggested that the school district in question may have gotten a much better deal through a Request for Technology, Request for Proposal, or even soliciting multiple proposals. That is how a free and open market works.
- I actually recently commented positively on the Moodle work you do, so your suggestion that I have some personal or professional animus seems a bit far-fetched...
Harsh 
Clearly anybody can give a Moodle contract to anybody they like. Rightly so too, particularly when public money is involved. However, I certainly didn't read that as Marc taking a pop at you personally. Of course if the materials are available to the public I really can't see how you can get upset because somebody publishes them.
(I consult for a Moodle Partner by the way if it makes any difference! AFAIK, Marc doesn't)
Clearly anybody can give a Moodle contract to anybody they like. Rightly so too, particularly when public money is involved. However, I certainly didn't read that as Marc taking a pop at you personally. Of course if the materials are available to the public I really can't see how you can get upset because somebody publishes them.
(I consult for a Moodle Partner by the way if it makes any difference! AFAIK, Marc doesn't)
Oh dear! I am almost reluctant to say his name, but I think even Steve would put you a rung higher than perhaps previously thought, Howard. 
I finally received the "balance" of the docs regarding the purchase. Details are at http://asdtech.wik.is/ASD_Tests_Moodle_Waters/More_on_the_Moodle_Mess
Bottom line is that it appears that in contacting Moodle Partners only as a second thought after being told about Moodle Partners by the folks running a State Moodle, the local district did not apparently have a needs analysis or a needs statement and concluded that what they could get for $14K from Teachers4Schools (which is Chick supported by three others) was comparable to what they could get for the same price from a Moodle Partner (though even the published material from partners like RemoteLearner clearly make the case that this is not true.)
To be fair, Chick has been providing a class (sponsored by a small private college which offer 3 credits for 24 class hours) on using e-portals featuring Moodle through the Alaska Staff Development Network (which hosts its Moodle with teachers4schools) so he has likely connected with more public school teachers than anyone at AVTEC (which runs one of the nicest Moodle in Alaska).
But this is about bang for the buck (not about who is a Moodle Partner and who is not), and its pretty clear that the bang is not there (my guess is that the $14K moodle is hosting under 100 kids, doesn't provide an online classroom such as Elluminate or even DimDim and has yet to provide the kinds of bells and whistles one might expect - such as graaadeable Nwikis with templates - I get hot just thinking about that, Ludo ). While the district was looking for Moodle hosting, Chick suggests he loses money on hosting Moodle and makes his cash on teachers4school's e-portal added-value offerings. I bet some Moodle Partners wish they could lose as much money providing Moodle hosting.... hey Howard?
I finally received the "balance" of the docs regarding the purchase. Details are at http://asdtech.wik.is/ASD_Tests_Moodle_Waters/More_on_the_Moodle_Mess
Bottom line is that it appears that in contacting Moodle Partners only as a second thought after being told about Moodle Partners by the folks running a State Moodle, the local district did not apparently have a needs analysis or a needs statement and concluded that what they could get for $14K from Teachers4Schools (which is Chick supported by three others) was comparable to what they could get for the same price from a Moodle Partner (though even the published material from partners like RemoteLearner clearly make the case that this is not true.)
To be fair, Chick has been providing a class (sponsored by a small private college which offer 3 credits for 24 class hours) on using e-portals featuring Moodle through the Alaska Staff Development Network (which hosts its Moodle with teachers4schools) so he has likely connected with more public school teachers than anyone at AVTEC (which runs one of the nicest Moodle in Alaska).
But this is about bang for the buck (not about who is a Moodle Partner and who is not), and its pretty clear that the bang is not there (my guess is that the $14K moodle is hosting under 100 kids, doesn't provide an online classroom such as Elluminate or even DimDim and has yet to provide the kinds of bells and whistles one might expect - such as graaadeable Nwikis with templates - I get hot just thinking about that, Ludo ). While the district was looking for Moodle hosting, Chick suggests he loses money on hosting Moodle and makes his cash on teachers4school's e-portal added-value offerings. I bet some Moodle Partners wish they could lose as much money providing Moodle hosting.... hey Howard?
Oh dear! I am almost reluctant to say his name, but I think even Steve would put you a rung higher than perhaps previously thought, Howard.
Ha ha... a nice thought, but I fear that I live amongst the eternally damned
Ha ha... a nice thought, but I fear that I live amongst the eternally damned
...than anyone at AVTEC (which runs one of the nicest Moodle in Alaska).
The credit for that goes to Debra Burdick, Moodle extraordinaire! Deb has likely done more than any single person in Alaska over the past 4 years to promote Moodle. A great lady who is fun to be with and has a deep appreciation for the Alaskan wilderness and surrounding fishing areas.
Visit Seward if you're down that way... fantastic place.
Marc, that Chick (or anyone else) makes money off Moodle, and may not give a cent back, isn't illegal or immoral. That all comes with the open source territory! Several Moodle partners have clients in Alaska so they don't feel threatened at all. We have a trainer that will be at a school district in Alaska this coming week, and that's her second visit in the past year. I was up there in 2005 doing a training at AVTEC.
When someone like Chick shows an interest in playing by the rules set in place in 2004, which established the Moodle partners program (commercial side of Moodle), they are likely noticed. These rules include active (and helpful) participation in the moodle.org forums, voluntarily donating 10% of Moodle services revenues to the Moodle Trust and responsibly promoting Moodle in their area of business (presentations, conferences etc). These things done over time demonstrate the kind of committment Martin is looking for and the full-time business should unquestionably apply to become a Moodle partner.
Of course this level of accountability doesn't sit well with the person who simply feels "entitled" because of Moodle being open source. Open source is not an entitlement it happens to be a gift, given by a very small number of highly dedicated and noble people. Gifts have always been considered, at least by intelligent people, to be something that is honored and appreciated. What does it say when someone rejects a gift or puts his own made up conditions on the gift, and then goes on to not only demean the gift but to slander the reputation of the gift-givers. Sadly, such mean spirited people exist. The wheel will turn, it always does! Howard is not damned, he is blessed for what he does.
The credit for that goes to Debra Burdick, Moodle extraordinaire! Deb has likely done more than any single person in Alaska over the past 4 years to promote Moodle. A great lady who is fun to be with and has a deep appreciation for the Alaskan wilderness and surrounding fishing areas.
Visit Seward if you're down that way... fantastic place.Marc, that Chick (or anyone else) makes money off Moodle, and may not give a cent back, isn't illegal or immoral. That all comes with the open source territory! Several Moodle partners have clients in Alaska so they don't feel threatened at all. We have a trainer that will be at a school district in Alaska this coming week, and that's her second visit in the past year. I was up there in 2005 doing a training at AVTEC.
When someone like Chick shows an interest in playing by the rules set in place in 2004, which established the Moodle partners program (commercial side of Moodle), they are likely noticed. These rules include active (and helpful) participation in the moodle.org forums, voluntarily donating 10% of Moodle services revenues to the Moodle Trust and responsibly promoting Moodle in their area of business (presentations, conferences etc). These things done over time demonstrate the kind of committment Martin is looking for and the full-time business should unquestionably apply to become a Moodle partner.
Of course this level of accountability doesn't sit well with the person who simply feels "entitled" because of Moodle being open source. Open source is not an entitlement it happens to be a gift, given by a very small number of highly dedicated and noble people. Gifts have always been considered, at least by intelligent people, to be something that is honored and appreciated. What does it say when someone rejects a gift or puts his own made up conditions on the gift, and then goes on to not only demean the gift but to slander the reputation of the gift-givers. Sadly, such mean spirited people exist. The wheel will turn, it always does! Howard is not damned, he is blessed for what he does.
To be fair/honest working with Moodle is my day job, and evening job, and weekend job but it is my job. I guess I'm lucky to have something interesting to do day to day but 'blessed', I don't know about that