Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Frances Bell -
Number of replies: 109
From time to time, discussion takes place on Moodle.org about rules/codes of conduct for online communication. Helen Foster has alerted me to this action in Moodle Tracker, see http://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDLSITE-392 . She said "Any comments in the tracker issue and/or contributions to the page in the wiki would be appreciated."
Wiki page is at
http://docs.moodle.org/en/Development:Moodle.org_forums_code_of_conduct

I will certainly be contributing to this but wanted to share some ideas here too.
It is often easy to agree about what is always acceptable in an online forum such as Moodle.org (pleasant friendly dialogue) and what is never acceptable (racism, pornography, etc.), and rules could be formulated to cover these. It becomes more difficult to legislate for behaviours that fall between these two poles, and rules can in themselves become the focus of bitter disagreement.
In this landmark article (1996), Deborah Johnson pointed out that the only hope for behaviour online is when participants internalise norms of behaviour, but she did give 3 rules that can help guide participants' behaviour and hence the development of norms.

"
On-line ethics would seem to call for the following three general rules.

1. Know the rules of the forums in which you communicate and follow them.

2. Respect the privacy and property rights of others. When in doubt assume the user wants privacy and ownership.

3. Respect the individuals with whom you communicate and those who are affected by your communication; that is, do not deceive, defame, or harass."

http://webpages.cs.luc.edu/~laufer/ethics96/papers/johnson.html

Some bad behaviour online disappears when ignored, or may be resolved by an apology or other action to resolve it. In the Lounge, I have tried to encourage those who refer to their commercial services (or comment on that of others) to make their affiliation clear in their profile, and to refrain from blatant advertising. As Helen puts it in the Wiki
"
There is no restriction on anyone mentioning their services in the forums if it's a natural part of discussion."
i would encourage you to comment here, and contribute to the Wiki.
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Martín Langhoff -

Francis - this is good. Two things might be worthwhile...

  • One is defining what we are here for, rather than just the limits (which are often impossible to pin down, and have the downside of acting as a red-rag to angry people).
  • Reinforcing awareness of how human dynamics work online. This essay by Clay Shirky is fantastic: http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html

Moodle.org has so far navigated almost "naturally" doing the right things -- I suspect enough of the core group know about the above concepts consciously or unconsciously... smile

In reply to Martín Langhoff

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Alexandre Enkerli -
I suspect enough of the core group know about the above concepts consciously or unconsciously

And/or people have happily discussed some of them... wink

In reply to Martín Langhoff

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Frances Bell -
Marten wink thanks.

You could link to the Clay Shirky article from the Wiki.
The issue of purpose is interesting, and a bit layered, depending on where you are.
Here is a stab at defining some purposes.
(first one is for everywhere)
People join Moodle.org to create, improve, use, promote and understand Moodle software, and have a bit of fun from time to time.
In the Moodle Lounge, Moodlers engage in free-ranging discussion from meta-discussion about the Moodle project to fun topics that may not be about Moodle at all.
In the Business Uses space ....... (it's for them to say).

That fits in with Deborah Johnson's Know the conventions of the space rule whilst still having an overarching common purpose/interest.

Another approach altogether that I like but may not suit Moodle, is the one taken by Blogher.

"We have just two rules: We embrace the spirit of civil disagreement and we decline to publish unacceptable content. Specifically:

  • BlogHer embraces the spirit of civil disagreement.
    As a Web site devoted to creating an opportunity for all kinds of women bloggers and their friends to seek greater exposure, education and community, we agree to agree and to disagree-as strongly as need be-without crossing the boundaries into unacceptable content (see below).
  • BlogHer declines to publish unacceptable content.
    Everything published on the BlogHer Network is content: Your posts, comments, forum messages, poll responses, audio, video, text, images, you name it. We embrace your diversity of opinions and values(see above) but we insist that your content may not include anything unacceptable."
more at
http://www.blogher.com/what-are-your-community-guidelines
In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Steve Hyndman -

"...but we insist that your content may not include anything unacceptable."

Anyone in mind to enforce that very clearly defined, objective, concrete rule? I know who would be (who is) doing it in Business Uses...do you really think that would work anywhere on this site?

Steve

In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Frances Bell -
I appreciate your point about rules and interpretations, hence my comment above about disagreements about rules. Regarding the quote from Blogher, it's worth following the link. The context is a bit different from Moodle.org. Why I referenced it was because of the concept of civil disagreement that I thought might be useful here (civility also being open to interpretation).
In reply to Martín Langhoff

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Lynne Scheible -
Help.......I have been trying to unsubscribe from this forum for a couple weeks and nothing seems to be working . When I hit the unsubscribe button it takes me to log in. Does anyone have suggestions on how to do this? (not that your converstaions are not interesting!!)
In reply to Lynne Scheible

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by A. T. Wyatt -
That sounds very strange! Maybe you could try it this way?

Go here: http://moodle.org/mod/forum/view.php?f=934
And click on the link (top right of page) to unsubscribe.

I just did it and it worked for me.

atw
In reply to A. T. Wyatt

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by John Isner -
we will miss you smile
In reply to John Isner

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by A. T. Wyatt -
Miss me? Why John, I am touched. But of course, I was never subscribed in the first place. I just check moodle 10 times a day because I am addicted. . .smile

And if I totally misunderstood your post, then just ignore me. I am not good picking up subtleties in text only messages. Sigh.

atw
In reply to Lynne Scheible

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Frances Bell -
Maybe you were clicking unsubscribe from an email message. In that case, it makes sense to be sent to log in, as you need to be identified as you before you can unsubscribe yourself.
Another alternative is to go to your profile (by clicking on your name in the message above) and unenrolling yourself from this 'course'.
In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Lesli Smith -
Thanks, Frances, for posting the link to the Johnson source for those guidelines. Having decided that we need better, more explicit guidelines at FR, I had actually gone to CABWEB first to look at yours because I remembered that they were pretty clear and well-written. I was going to ask your permission to use some of them and get feedback on my paraphrasing in the places where I found it necessary to gear the guidelines more specifically to FR, but I have been super swamped this semester.

I haven't been totally pleased with my draft so far, so I haven't made it public. That's the editor in me. Of course I should probably make it a community effort if it is to be a community set of guidelines. blush So far it's just a draft of discussion guidelines and more explicit guidelines on internet privacy issues.

Yes, users here are for the most part pretty savvy in terms of these norms, but more "digital immigrants" are joining our ranks (I'm one myself--every post by Alexandre on some new internet phenomenon or invention reminds me of how much of an immigrant I am wink). This means that we shouldn't take these norms for granted.

Regarding guidelines here, I remembered one very important conversation on getting forum help that led to the creation of a guidelines page in the docs. Tim Kellers put a lot of time and effort into it, so I went ahead and put in a link to both the guidelines page and the discussion that led to its creation.
In reply to Lesli Smith

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Frances Bell -
Thanks for the compliment Lesli, though I'm not sure that CABWEB discussion guidelines would fit here (the two sites having different purposes and participants wink ).
I do remember the discussion we had at CABWEB though and I remember that Gina Stephenson suggested having guidelines that helped participants achieve their goals, rather than just avoid problems/sanctions. That chimes in with what you are saying. I guess the Wiki page should link to guidance that already exists e.g. http://moodle.org/mod/resource/view.php?id=1361

I still think the most important angle is the behaviour modelled by participants in their posts and responses. That's where civil disagreement is so important. If loud voices claim, "this is how it is in Moodle.org" , others still have to be able to disagree otherwise the loud voices control the direction by individual will rather than a pragmatic consensus that tolerates diversity. That is a real risk for Moodle.org that is serving a global community but has limited diversity in its English language forums (I can't speak for the others).
In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Lesli Smith -
Re: CW guidelines for here. You're right. You caught me with my head in two places again. I was looking at CW more as a guide for what we need to do at FR (which has a purpose and a group of participants more closely related to CW than this site).

Re: modeling. Yes, modeling is always the most effective teaching method and the hardest to do well as a teacher (at least for me, anyway).

Re: Civil disagreement and its risks--I hope we never stop risking it or learning from our past mistakes in the way we have conducted ourselves during various heated discussions. I know I have learned much from these discussions myself.
In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Steve Hyndman -

1. Know the rules of the forums in which you communicate and follow them.

Interesting that this came up right after an offer of free hosting here.

I would like to applaud you on your reaction to that post...much better, and far more in the "spirit" of open source than the previous one in Business Uses.

I think you really need to clarify and make known the current rules before trying to generate new ones; otherwise, your new rules could very well be built on a lot of false, or very unclear assumptions. For example, you continue to encourage people to put their business affiliations in their profile. If they are not Moodle partners then that's advertising their services here on Moodle.org and that has clearly been determined be unacceptable on many levels. If that has changed, I think it needs to be cleared up.

You quoted the rule:

"As Helen puts it in the Wiki
"There is no restriction on anyone mentioning their services in the forums if it's a natural part of discussion."

I think that would be news to most...many, many, people have been chastised for mentioning their services here in the forums...one example...I could post dozens of links...I'm not sure what a "natural part of discussion" is anyway. Evidently, the example above wasn't a "natural part of discussion" and this wasn't either....would it have been if Dean had posted the same thing in reply to someone asking for hosting?

Steve

In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Frances Bell -
It's just a coincidence that this came up after Zachary's post, which is quite a good example of someone mentioning their services as a 'natural part of discussion' IMHO. I am hoping he will answer my questions though.
I wouldn't assume that people putting business affiliations in their profiles is unacceptable. It's quite possible for people to do this without compromising the Moodle trade mark see http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=58678#p390667
and look for Jagdeep's post and replies.
Obviously, behaviour in the past by different individuals is not completely consistent with any unwritten rules, just as behaviour in the future will not be completely consistent. Hopefully, the Wiki page (once complete, and it has only just begun), this discussion and people's changing behaviours might lead to a bit more consistency.
It's worth pointing out that the Wiki page should be a group thing, and will be much stronger and more useful with more, considered contributions.
In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Steve Hyndman -

I wouldn't assume that people putting business affiliations in their profiles is unacceptable.

The link you provided to support your assumption is a rather "safe" example since they are not providing "Moodle services", but even given that, it is interesting to note that WizIQ does incorporate the Moodle Trademark (http://www.wiziq.com/downloads/moodle/) in their site to advertise their product...I would assume that is a clear trademark infringement if it's being done without permission. Note: I don't mean the typed "word" Moodle, I mean this: Moodle Logo (embedded here directly from that site). But, if it's okay to link to sites like this in profiles, I think it's great and certainly won't argue about it.

Now, let's look at some less "safe" examples. Would you also assume that it is okay for the owners of these sites to put their business affiliations in their profiles?:

http://newschoollearning.com/themes/prestige/

http://www.cmstrainingvideos.com/viewpage.php?page_id=31

http://www.siteground.com/moodle-hosting.htm

I could continue with dozens more...

Steve

In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Frances Bell -
I have no idea if Wiziq web site had such a link when the dialogue linked took place, and I think that is the concern of people other than myself who are interested in what is happening on external web sites. I was merely recommending the positive action of declaring their affiliation in their profile without compromising Moodle TM in their profile. The intention being to encourage openness about interests in discussions.
Anyway, that is just the fairly informal approach I have been adopting in theseis forums. Let's see if it is accepted more widely.
In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Howard Miller -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
The thing I don't see is how will this be used? It's a similar sort of issue to the "how to ask effective questions in forums" thread that was kicking about recently. It's all very worthy but how will it actually work? I am concerned that we might use it as a hammer - "why didn't you read the codes of conduct", "why didn't you read the faq.". That kind of thing.

I'm also a bit concerned that these codes are starting to sound like a bit of an academic paper. Don't get me wrong, I would be interested in such a thing and welcome it, but an actual code of conduct is more in the Legal than Academic sphere. I'm sure that anybody who is looking for guidance is unlikely to care who Deborah Johnson is (who I certainly have never heard of, but then I'm just a techy tongueout ).
In reply to Howard Miller

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Frances Bell -
A very good question Howard, rules used by trolls and by dictatorial moderators can achieve the exactly opposite outcome to what might have been intended. That is why I am reluctant for Moodle.org to have 'rules' and 'codes of conduct' , because they beg the question of sanctions. However, some guidance could be useful.
My impression is that Helen Foster raised the Tracker item because of some recent acrimonious spatting about what is/isn't advertising in a forum. If Moodle Docs can achieve some clarification about what is/isn't acceptable by way of advertising in forums then maybe we can be spared 6 screen shots in a posting and also the unpalatable spectacle of unsuspecting Moodlers being pounced on for mentioning that they offer hosting services (I didn't mean Zachary I hasten to add wink ). As I said before, it's how we behave that makes a bigger influence IMHO.
Regarding the 'academic' issue, I only gave the Johnson link because she wrote the three rules I mentioned and I attribute sources where possible. They are also widely cited and used. I really do disagree with you about them being a 'legal' issue - I see the whole issue of norms and guidelines as being practical. I really like her first 'rule' "Know the rules of the forums in which you communicate and follow them." except that I would interpret it as "Learn what is acceptable around here and stick with that". So in Moodle.org it might (for argument's sake) be acceptable to have a thread about something off-topic in the Moodle Lounge but not in the Moodle for Business Uses forum (I am happy to be corrected on that clown).
In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Steve Hyndman -

I'm not as nice as you, so for newer people, like possibility Zachary, who may not know what the following references are to, let me add a little clarity and context. Feel free to correct me where I may be wrong.

My impression is that Helen Foster raised the Tracker item because of some recent acrimonious spatting about what is/isn't advertising in a forum.

The start: http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=92405

The Follow-up: http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=92577 Coincidentally, this is the first ever discussion in Moodle.org (to my knowledge) to be closed. I'm sure the timing of when it was closed was also just a coincidence...read the thread and see if you can spot a change in the "direction" of the discussion just before it was closed. Now that discussion has a dedicated home in its own forum...which I think is great and I also think it will be very interesting to see what other type of discussions join it in the future.

If Moodle Docs can achieve some clarification about what is/isn't acceptable by way of advertising in forums then maybe we can be spared 6 screen shots in a posting...

Here: http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=56488 although I count more than 6 and of course it never happened...it's just a figment of our imagination.

Steve

In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Frances Bell -
Thanks Steve. I would note that's the second time you have given us that link in this thread so I think we have it nowwink

How about we work towards avoiding having threads closed? I really would like to keep this one 'open' in the sense that a wide range of people feel able to contribute to this discussion.
In the spirit of openness, could I very humbly suggest that your choice of forum (not what you said - some of which I agreed with) , Comparisons and Advocacy, was not the most appropriate place for you to pursue your grievance?
C and A announces itself:
"This forum is a place for people to discuss how Moodle relates to other systems for internet-based learning.

We do not want to see other systems being bashed here - this is a place for comparisons, advocacy, reflections, experiences, and thoughtful general discussions of the playing field that Moodle is part of."

Addition: What I meant to say was that keeping a sense of context (who looks at Comparison and Advocacy) is an example of Johnson's 'Know the rules of the forum'.

I certainly would not been happy with some of the contributions had they happened here in the Social Forum.

In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Steve Hyndman -

Thanks Steve. I would note that's the second time you have given us that link in this thread so I think we have it nowwink

Is there some rule about the number of times a link can be posted? wink

In the spirit of openness, could I very humbly suggest that your choice of forum (not what you said - some of which I agreed with) , Comparisons and Advocacy, was not the most appropriate place for you to pursue your grievance?

Well, I believe it was the most appropriate place given the choices in the course the vast majority of people coming to this site read. We both know (or at least I know) how this lounge, one of the most active forums in Using Moodle, was essentially killed by moving it to a different course...and we know why it was moved...a distasteful discussion that resulted in a complete thread being deleted. Now this lounge is a place that very few people visit and even fewer visit Business Uses. In fact, I didn't even know Bryan had posted that note in Business Uses until someone else alerted me to it.

If you want something to be seen, then it needs to be posted in Using Moodle. I wanted to make sure that discussion in Business Uses was seen...that's why I posted it in Using Moodle. If it has stayed in Business Uses, I would venture to guess that you wouldn't have seen it.

But, as I said, I'm glad that discussion has its own home in Using Moodle now. If it had stayed in comparison and advocacy, then it would have eventually been pushed off the screen and forgotten....now it will be there in the open, where it should be, for a very long time. On a side note....it's interesting that you can still "rate" posts in that discussion, you just can't discuss any longer wink

We do not want to see other systems being bashed here - this is a place for comparisons, advocacy, reflections, experiences, and thoughtful general discussions of the playing field that Moodle is part of."

No one was bashing any other systems....I think that discussion fit rather well in this part of the description: "...thoughtful general discussions of the playing field that Moodle is part of."

Steve

In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Art Lader -
Sigh. Guess I'll stop lurking and post something now:

> We both know (or at least I know) how this lounge,
> one of the most active forums in Using Moodle, was
> essentially killed by moving it to a different course...
> and we know why it was moved...a distasteful
> discussion that resulted in a complete thread being
> deleted.

This was a discussion that I began in Oct. 2006 -
Art Teacher loses job after trip to museum - http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=55513

(The only truly unpleasant experience I have ever had at my beloved moodle.org.)

But even that cloud had a silver lining - Art Lader......Hark, Hark -
http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=57649

Just goes to show, you can't keep a good community down.

-- Art
In reply to Art Lader

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by N Hansen -
Oh dear, that was quite a surreal experience. The two of us who disagreed most on the topic itself-Josep and I-were ironically the two people who treated eachother with the most respect and defended the existence of the thread the most.

And I don't see the silver lining in S Bhatia. He was just creepy and sleazy!
In reply to N Hansen

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Art Lader -

> And I don't see the silver lining in S Bhatia.
> He was just creepy and sleazy!

Well, maybe so. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion about that sort of thing, of course.

I took it to be an attempt to inject a little humor into a tense situation. A kind gesture. I really did think he (she?) was trying to be nice.

But I guess that is open to interpretation.

Regards,
Art

P.S. Kudos to participants in this thread for taking on a tough subject.

In reply to Art Lader

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by N Hansen -
It wasn't that post alone, there was a lot of stuff he posted and I believe even emailed that was simply not nice at all.

Edit: I just searched my email, now it comes back to me. He sent me an email which in a very roundabout and longwinded attempt at linguistic cleverness, he told me to shut up and fuck off in response to a post that simply had been a straightforward and non-judgmental response to a request he had for information. He wanted to know something about the Moodle license and I simply suggested he contact a lawyer. Not the kind of thing you expect someone to respond to in such a rude manner.
In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Howard Miller -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
Re. the advertising thing - well, we're talking about money aren't we, and that always brings out the worst in (some) people.
In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by N Hansen -
As for the Business Uses course, I gave up on that a long time ago. It never was allowed to be what it was designed to be, a place for business users of Moodle to share ideas and advice with one another. It just became a place for Moodle Partn*rs to troll for business. As soon as someone posted a question, a Moodle partn*r would jump in and tell them the answer to their issue was to get a Moodle partn*r to solve it for them. There was NO OTHER part of Moodle where this kind of blatant advertising was practiced.

The actions of these Moodle partn*ers in said course was so overwhelming and prevalent I started to feel that they thought the unwritten code of conduct in these forums was that people who use Moodle for commercial purposes are OK to spam but those who weren't would actually possibly be entitled to some substantive help.
In reply to N Hansen

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Steve Hyndman -

It just became a place for Moodle Partn*rs to troll for business.

March 2008 and that hasn't changed

http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=92483

Steve

In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by N Hansen -
angry Replies like that are such a contradiction to the helpful atmosphere that prevails elsewhere at moodle.org. If he has some brilliant insights into the issues, why can't he post them for everyone to benefit from? Some people don't seem to have ever learned that giving away a little free advice is some of the best PR. Some people sell social constructivism, but they certainly don't practice! Maybe one of the codes of conduct should be that Moodle partners should only be allowed to market their services here using social constructivism.
In reply to N Hansen

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Howard Miller -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
With my Moodle Partner hat on....

I completely agree. I do sometimes say "perhaps you should seek out a Moodle Partner" but I have to say that I always type that with a pang of guilt because I understand how it might be perceived. In my defense, I don't believe that I do it any more now then I did before I was involved with a MP.

For me the big hint is right there on the front page when you click the link that says "Free Support". The clue is in the name. I'm quite happy to take people's money but there's a time and a place. Recommending professional services should be seen as a last resort and only when completely appropriate in these forums.
In reply to Howard Miller

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Steve Hyndman -

I do sometimes say "perhaps you should seek out a Moodle Partner" but I have to say that I always type that with a pang of guilt because I understand how it might be perceived.

Really....that must be some "new found" guilt...I had to check three times just to make sure the link below was the same "cat" wink

http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=92577#p409470

Steve

In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Howard Miller -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
Cheap shot Stevie boy tongueout

Of course most of the time I can find more interesting ways of spending my time that trawling the forums looking for stuff to throw back at people. Still, each to their own eh? smile
In reply to Howard Miller

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Steve Hyndman -

What's cheap about it...care to explain?

You seemed to feel real comfortable jumping on the bandwagon in that thread now you are singing a different song here. Just pointing out your own words...maybe you've had a change of heart.

Steve

In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Frances Bell -
Steve,
OK, you found out someone making a verbal inconsistency (well we will all have done that at some time or another wink ). Personally, I am glad that Howard (as a Moodle partner) is here joining in the discussion. I certainly don't feel that he jumping on the bandwagon. This discussion is about whether guidelines can help with people achieving their goals in the different areas of Moodle, one specific issue being advertising/promotion. You tried one approach Steve, and have already told us about that in this thread.
How about we try to make this discussion inclusive? We can still disagree without point-scoring or settling old scores.
In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Steve Hyndman -

Maybe you misunderstood....the jumping on the bandwagon was a reference to the other (closed) thread...not this one. I pointed out a pretty significant inconsistency on the exact same subject posted within a couple of weeks...I think that was (is) relevant.

Personally, I am glad that Howard (as a Moodle Partner) is here joining in the discussion.

So am I...did I say otherwise?

How about we try to make this discussion inclusive?

Are you implying that I'm trying to exclude anyone?

We can still disagree without point-scoring or settling old scores.

There's no point scoring and I have no "old score" to settle with Howard...I think the inconsistency is at the heart of this issue and I would still like to hear how it was a "cheap shot". Howard is a "big boy" and I'm quite sure he doesn't need you taking up for him.

You tried one approach Steve, and have already told us about that in this thread.

So, are you implying now that I shouldn't be participating in this thread? If you haven't already figured it out by now Frances, I'm going to speak my mind and I am not going to ask myself whether Frances (or anyone else for that matter) will "approve" of what I say before I press "Post to forum".

Steve

In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Frances Bell -
(Sighs wearily) No I am not trying to stop you from participating in this or any other thread, or asking you to seek my approval before posting. I doubt that there is anyone who hasn't figured out that you will speak your mind, come hell or high water wink
Communication style, rather than intention, can exclude others. If you don't stop to think whether or not people 'approve'' before you post, do you ever stop to think if your post will actually encourage others to participate?
In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by N Hansen -
Steve-In defense of Frances, I will just say this-since I have had a lot of correspondence with her off-forum-she is not evil. Trust me on this. I'm not going to say anything more than that.
In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Steve Hyndman -

It's true, my communication style is a lot different than yours...most of the time. I have a very "direct" style and I don't often "turn the other cheek". You don't like my style...and that's okay. The difference between me and you is that I don't try to impose my "style" on anyone else. Quite frankly, I not a big fan of the communication style that dances around issues and never really gets to the issue...but, a lot of people have that "style"...and that's okay.

And no, I don't stop to think if my post will encourage others to participate. In my classes I encourage my "students" to participate. I do believe some feel they have "students" here in these forums, but I have no students here and I think it's quite patronizing to think that people coming here would allow others to determine whether they participated or not. You know, you're pretty "judgmental" in your own style Frances (and I say that in a very constructive manner)....

And, no, I don't think you are evil...never said I did smile.  

Steve

In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Timothy Takemoto -

I am probably completely misunderstanding all that is going on, but when Howard (a hero of mine) said:

"Can we just put a banner on the front page that says "Steve Hyndman thinks Moodle Partners are in league with the Devil", and then all get on with our lives."

Then...I would like to rephrase in my way as:

"Can we just put a banner on the front page that says, "The Moodler Partners are the only people that are allowed to advertise their services." If you think this is evil then be warned. That is the way we do things here. If don't like it, go elsewhere, and lets alll get on with our lives""

I am probably misrepresenting everyone with that rephrase, but...I think that that there is nothing evil about Moodle assuming it is all out in the open (here perhaps Steve would disagree) and there seems to me to be something slightly not-open about the present situation (here perhaps Howard would disagree).

Tim

In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Steve Hyndman -

No disagreement here.

Steve

In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Lesli Smith -
So, just to be clear, I'm in league with the devil AND I'm a fox waiting to consume a poor defenseless chicken at the next opportunity?

C'mon, you guys. Can we call a truce, here?

Rule number one: be able to laugh at yourself and two: admit when you have been wrong.

I, for one, am still vexed by the treatment of Steve and the character judgments that have been made of people on all sides of disputes in the heat of past discussions. I also agree with him that the expectations for conduct in the forums are still being worked out and that not everyone has them implicitly wired into their consciousnesses. I, for one again, am very conscious of cognitive dissonance every time I post just because someone might construe something I post as being an advertisement when really, I'm just trying to help.

Martin's analogy of discipline in the home only works for those who "grew up" here and in online communities. I immigrated. This means that I have to work harder to know the norms.

Along these lines, I'd like to agree with Frances that these be considered guidelines and not, as Howard worried, a place to send people with the admonishment, "Haven't you read the guidelines?" But rather with the encouragement, "Maybe these pointers might be helpful to you."

These thoughts are disjointed as I only have a few minutes before my next class arrives, but I wanted to plead for a little more civility in the way we express our points. No, you don't need my or anyone else's approval, of course, Steve, and perhaps prior to this discussion, I haven't adequately expressed how much I respected your passion and dedication to education. I do.

So again, can I ask for a truce so that we can concentrate on the matter at hand: how to communicate our community expectations to others in the best way possible.
In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by N Hansen -
If those rules were posted somewhere, then the right thing to do would be for anyone who noticed someone breaking those rules, not necessarily a Moodle partn*r, to privately message the rule breaker and point them to the rule. But as it is now, a Moodle partn*r will jump in like a fox and start tearing the chicken to shreds publicly while simultaneously making a plug for the partners, even if the chicken was totally innocent in their post and had no idea they were breaking a rule. Often the person breaking the rule does seem genuinely like they are trying to be helpful, such as offering free hosting. Now, they might have a profit motive behind that too, but it isn't like they are trying to sell us property in Lagos or something. However, the response of the partner makes the partner look bad, it turns off the innocent chicken from Moodle, and it just leaves a bad taste all around.
In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Frances Bell -
Well that's one approach Tim but not the one taken in the Wiki entry that kicked off this discussionbig grin. So I guess that is part of what this discussion is about.
My understanding is that Moodle Partners advertise their services on the front page in the Partners block, but on the forums, they are expected to mention their services as part of the conversation but not advertise - the same as is expected of all Moodlers.

“Advertising

  • It is not allowed to put all-out advertisements (Moodle or otherwise) in Moodle.org content, such as forum posts. The only exceptions are the Partner blocks and the books etc. on the front page.
  • There is no restriction on anyone mentioning their services in the forums if it's a natural part of discussion. “

http://docs.moodle.org/en/Development:Moodle.org_forums_code_of_conduct

In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by N Hansen -
Lesli-I never mentioned you nor even suggested I was talking about you so why do you identify with my statement unless you engage in that kind of behavior...? The truth may be Moodle partn*rs themselves are mostly chickens but they have a fox or two in their midst.

No Moodle partn*r is usually bold enough to say contact me for your Moodle needs but they do post a link to the Moodle partn*r page, where of course their business is among those listed. Is that ok or not? I don't see why it wouldn't be ok if the person doing it wasn't a Moodle partn*r or working for one, because then it could be seen as personal experienced based advice. However, as Frances points out, the longstanding rules do not permit Moodle partn*rs to advertise their services through forum posts, yet that has been going on for a long time and Moodle partn*rs also ironically attack non-partners for advertising services and in the process advertise their own services, seemingly breaking a rule while chastising someone else for breaking the same rule.
In reply to N Hansen

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Lesli Smith -
Hilarious, Nicole! wide eyes I'm not sure which I prefer--fox or chicken?

I was rushed on my lunch break last post, so perhaps I sounded like I was taking things more personally than I am because I used the "I" to make a point. I'm not. It's just that I wanted to remind people that there are actual people behind the partners; they aren't just some ubiquitous force roaming the forums for prey. (But occasionally, you might be right about the chicken part. I'm not very good, always, in confrontational situations.)

And I guess I'm also asking the community for advice regarding one of our crossover dilemmas: many of us working with partners are involved in both the profit and the non-profit sides of Moodle services. If I refer someone to the non-profit side of our services (FR), is that uncouth and considered advertising because once they get there, the partner logo and info is there?

This is the cognitive dissonance I'm talking about. I wouldn't see that as spam, but someone else might. Again, this is apparently info I'm supposed to know without asking, but I don't. There are grey areas, and I would hope that someone would gently redirect me if I'm out of line. But I also understand that there is a slight power differential that partners should acknowledge.

It is a difficult breach we're trying to bridge, here, to hold two opposing ideas of profit and non-profit in our heads at the same time without calling someone a sellout if he/she is making a profit--or even making money, and then without also employing capitalistic "survival of the fittest" marketing tactics, either, when someone seems to encroach on our perceived "turf."

It makes me think of Miracle on 34th Street. If we can find that particular balance of respecting our competitors enough and having confidence enough in our own niches to refer people to each other and to explain pros/cons of not going with a partner without making it sound as if the partner is really the only option out there, that would be something, wouldn't it? It wouldn't probably make much business sense, but then, I'm not a businesswoman. I'm a teacher. I want people to go where they will get the best help. smile
In reply to Lesli Smith

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Frances Bell -
Hi Lesli,
I can't see you as fox or chicken!
My concern, and possibly shared by others from what I have read in postings, is that when partners (and I have only seen one do this) very quickly come in to shut down non-partners when they make any reference to their commercial services, it seems to be more than a little unfair. Do look at the Wiki, under Advertising
http://docs.moodle.org/en/Development:Moodle.org_forums_code_of_conduct
What you are describing does not sound to me like advertising. Exploring this in discussion helps establish what is mentioning services in the natural flow of conversation and what is blatant advertising.
However I do think it would be helpful to the forum if you explained what Faculty Room is and how it operates, as FR may not mean much to some here.
There is another point though - that Moodle partners can form their view on what is acceptable with regards advertising and either work to change the statement in the Wiki, in collaboration with the rest of us, or make it clear if they support it.
In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by N Hansen -
Look, if a partner came in and answered a question with something like this: "One of our clients had a similar issue, and here's a little information about how we solved it" then I would see no problem with that. They could give a little tidbit of what they did and that might be help enough for some people or the little tidbit might be enough to get the questioner interested in following up with them to see if they can provide the same services to them. But at least they have shared SOMETHING with EVERYONE. I feel I shouldn't have to be suggesting this at all as it seems like business marketing 101 common sense, but it's clear some people can't be bothered to even take the time to do this.

As for chickens and foxes, I was serious in what I said. One partner annoying people in the forums through forceful promotion of Moodle services is like a fox in a henhouse. It can make all of you look bad, even if most of you are good.
In reply to N Hansen

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Lesli Smith -
I happened to have the bad luck to be posting in the middle of an upgrade sweep or something earlier tonight. Anyway, the post was lost during the temporary loss of forum access. sad

I'll have to be more concise and take less time to post in future, I guess.

Pts taken, Nicole and Frances. I should try to avoid humor, perhaps. My delivery's a little dry. Just to be clear: I don't really see myself as a fox or chicken. I just wanted to say that the brush was being applied a little broadly, there. wink

Re: FR. I'll have to come back on that. I was being obtuse on purpose until I understood the "unwritten" community consensus better.

Re: guideline for "natural conversation." Seems like common sense, but then again, talented salespeople can work in a connection in any conversation. It might annoy some people, but it will seem natural to the salesperson. The REALLY talented ones will make the connection seem perfectly natural to everyone. wink


In reply to N Hansen

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by John Isner -
Wow, this is the most fun discussion I've read in a long time!

Moodle Partners trolling for business in the community forums reminds me of the mathematical models of population growth and decay. You have the foxes (the partners who troll) and the chickens (the rest of us). If the foxes are too aggressive, they deplete the chicken population; then the foxes starve and the chicken population begins to grow again until it can sustain some foxes, and on, and on, and on. There's an ideal chicken-to-fox ratio where the two populations stabilize.

I'm not sure what the stable ratio is on moodle.org, but I think we have one too many foxes smile

In reply to John Isner

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Lesli Smith -
Well, in the interest of full disclosure, I guess I'd have to say, that's right, I am a "fox." (And apparently not a very humble one, either. wink)


Attachment momsafox.jpg
Average of ratings: Very cool (1)
In reply to N Hansen

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Martín Langhoff -
I sure hope that Moodle Partners are not rude or spams the forums. Anyone who does should be called on it. This includes the MP I work for.

One of the things that I suspect is at work is that MPs push forward Moodle development in various ways (funding for Moodle.com, code, teaching materials, promotion, lots of stuff). That activity brings good karma, as fixing bugs, documenting stuff, etc - mainly because the community around moodle.org is all about using Moodle and making it better.

This is about people pulling a big, heavy cart together. Noone is eating anyone, as far as I can see wink
In reply to Martín Langhoff

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by N Hansen -
Most Moodle partn*rs and their employees who spend time here in the forums are truly helpful Moodlers (to bring back a controversial phrase I could never stand) but there are some for whom the majority of posts consist of one liners that involve advising people to contact a Moodle partn*r.

I know I might get in trouble for this. But this is quite an amusing post. It's as if he is saying, "I admit I know the purpose of this forum is for the chickens to socialize with one another but I'm a fox and I can't help but pick off one tasty hen!"
In reply to Martín Langhoff

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Steve Hyndman -
In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by N Hansen -
Steve-Is that an ostrich...or a chicken?
In reply to N Hansen

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Steve Hyndman -

It's a BIG chicken receiving one-on-one training from a Moodle Partner or a Moodle disciple--they look a lot alike, so it's unclear which it is. But, I think the title of the training is: "How to Spot a Fox".

Steve

In reply to Martín Langhoff

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Anthony Borrow -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Martín - I do not work for a Moodle Partner but I am grateful for the support and financial stability that they provide Moodle. Moodle Partners, besides being active and providing a great deal of free support on the forums also contribute to Moodle by providing developers (such as yourself). In addition Moodle Partners make a significant commitment to financially supporting Moodle which helps to ensure for the rest of us that Moodle has money to hire talented developers to continue developing, fixing bugs, etc. Certain requests and questions may require more time and effort to answer than is feasible via the forums. In such cases, when I am asked who might be able to do that work, I tend to advocate for a Moodle Partner precisely because I know that part of that money will go to support Moodle's continued development and that the code developed will likely be shared with the rest of the community. I know that there are many companies, individuals, etc. who like myself are not associated with a Moodle Partner who do a great deal to contribute to Moodle whether through time, talent, or treasure. As you say, we are all working together each doing his or her part to the best of their ability. Realizing that It is hard for me to be anything but grateful for being able to be a part of the Moodle community. Peace - Anthony
In reply to Martín Langhoff

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by John Isner -
Martin said

Anyone who does should be called on it.


I'm glad to hear you say that. But part of the problem is who does the calling. When bad behavior occurs, I would like to see one of the other partners step forward and point it out and not wait for community members to do it. When someone from the community points out bad behavior, they can expect a public beating -- or worse. What's worse than a public beating? A sanctimonious lecture about "importance of partners to Moodle".

Please, lecturers, spare us your lectures. We know how important the partners are to Moodle, and sometimes I think we care more about it than you do.
In reply to John Isner

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Steve Hyndman -

Hear, hear! Maybe this should be added to the wiki. As the ole saying goes...if you don't police your own, you can be sure someone else will wink

Steve

In reply to John Isner

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by N Hansen -
Exactly! We all recognize the contributions and importance of Moodle partners.

But the topic of this thread is the codes of conduct in Moodle.org forums, and concerns about how Moodle partn*rs specifically engage in questionable conduct in these forums is what we are talking about. Just because you are a Moodle partn*r does not give you the right to abuse others in these forums, does it?

In fact, I think Moodle partn*rs need to be held to a higher level of conduct in these forums because they are semi-official representatives of Moodle. A not-so-helpful Moodle partn*r is more of a liability to Moodle than an average forum participant, whereas a helpful one is the best publicity possible for Moodle. Those who don't wish to be helpful and would rather troll for business would be better off gone from the forums altogether.
In reply to N Hansen

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by N Hansen -
I thought I would just link to this thread because it brought up a lot of issues that might be relevant here.

And one post there brought to mind one item that should be added to the code of conduct, and that is "No drunk posting." tongueout
In reply to N Hansen

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Anthony Borrow -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Well said. I agree that we should challenge one another to strive toward the highest level of professionalism and that if a Moodle Partner does something that does not represent well the wonderful spirit of the Moodle community then they should open to some constructive criticism. Usually if I have something critical to say, I try to do it in a more private forum to raise awareness about my concerns. It is too easy I think to take something publicly said personally. Then egos and defensiveness get involved, etc. This is not to say that Moodle Partners get a free pass. If I were really concerned about the way that a Moodle Partner was representing themselves and I were not able to resolve it directly with them, I would contact Martin or encourage someone to contact him and share their concerns. Fortunately, I have not had such problems but I do hope that if I were to say something on the forums that seems to be out-of-sync with the Moodle spirit that someone will write me privately and call me to task. I intend to do the same.

Along those lines, I think a good general rule that might be helpful is that if something is sent via a private channel - say a Moodle message or an email - which is intended to be a more personal and private means of communicating - that it would not be aired publicly on the forum (at least not without asking the person if it is OK to do so). The idea being to increase confidence that we can share things with one another and have private disputes without having to worry about them becoming public disputes or having something perhaps taken out of context. Again, this is not to encourage the abuse of such private communication but simply as a general guideline which might help foster a greater sense of trust while at the same time allowing for confrontation and constructive criticism.

Peace - Anthony
In reply to John Isner

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Hi John.

Since Moodle Partners are only partners because of a contract with me, people should send any complaints here:

http://moodle.com/helpdesk

I'm very happy to deal with perceived problems if I'm alerted to them (I don't read every forum!). I have done so several times in the past and we've successfully worked through and solved a variety of issues and conflicts. Some partners have been let go in the past.

I don't think it's necessary to have it all out on the forums unless other avenues have failed.
In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Frances Bell -
It's good to know where to raise specific incidents Martin. I had already posted a link to the Tracker, Wiki and this discussion (Codes of Conduct) in the Moodle for Business Uses Social Forum as I thought it would be good to encourage involvement of that sub-community. I don't know where else this topic could usefully be discussed but there has been limited contribution to the Wiki so far.
BTW, I would rather have these named as 'guidelines' rather than 'rules' or 'codes of conduct', just my two pennorth wink
In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Timothy Takemoto -

I can see how it would be divisive to elucidate specific incidents with specific individuals on an open forum. At the same time, an open set of general guidlines sounds like a very good idea.

IMHO any code of conduct would be fine if it is out in the open.

In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
I've posted a policy for advertising here that hopefully will clarify things for everybody (Note it applies to all of us, Moodle Partners do not get special treatment).

http://docs.moodle.org/en/Policy_on_Advertising

Let me know if that's not clear enough or fair enough.

After reading these recent discussions carefully (thanks to all) I'm strongly of the opinion we (as a group) don't need further codes of conduct and interaction. Moodlers tend to be kind, helpful folks already.
Average of ratings: Very cool (2)
In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Frances Bell -
I think that is very helpful, and a good outcome
In reply to N Hansen

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Robert Bussell -
After reading through this thread and the others Steve has pointed out, it seems that you all are not being completely correct in your use of Moodle Partners. It seems, really, that it is a specific Moodle Partner who is really the subject of these posts. Furthermore, it is disturbing that this person also runs one of the main courses on Moodle.org. It would seem a conflict of interest to me. Certainly, there are other people in the community who are qualified and willing to do this job.

I also wonder why a person who has such disdain for people employed in higher education is so involved with it at this level. I certainly would not want to purchase services or goods from anyone who held my profession in contempt.

I almost never post on the Moodle boards because while I am a good user of Moodle, most of the help questions are above me. I try to stay away from these types of conversations also due to the flame-type behaviour that can occur. It just really struck me that this all started because of this post, and then I read N. Hansens's remark about Business Users... and I was surprised no one else mentioned it. I do not like generalizations when specific examples are readily available.

My two cents.

Rob
In reply to Robert Bussell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Robert, I think this is a terrible injustice to characterise Bryan as having contempt for the teaching profession or anything like that, so I have to respond.

I think he's been the subject of uncharitable ongoing character assassination by a few individuals with axes to grind. The same individuals who have generalized a few isolated events to all Moodle Partners (as you pointed out) also generalize about Bryan. I can't see any way this is meant to be constructive and perhaps it's working (judging by your opinion above).

Yes, I agree Bryan has overreacted to a couple of posts, and the fact he was facilitator of a course called Moodle for Business Uses did (in retrospect) cause a conflict of interest.

I've always been skeptical of that course in total, and only agreed to it continuing because it was going to be about corporate training and not about general Moodle services. Bryan, as one of the two people who volunteered to be facilitators, has just been trying to uphold that rule (and it needs to happen a fair bit because the course name is still ambiguous even though we tried to make it not be). It's unfortunate that general Moodle services are also exactly what Bryan's company provides so it does come across as a conflict of interest. (Please note Bryan has resigned as facilitator there earlier this week).

What must be said is that Bryan is one of the busiest people I know (and that's saying something) working all-out to build a company of smart capable people that supports many hundreds of institutions in using Moodle (not to mention at least two core Moodle developers). It's understandable I hope that his posts are going to talk about his experiences and make connections with the developments he's associated with.

I think if you actually look at what Bryan has posted overall unfiltered by the axe-grinders you might get a different impression of this man.

Anyway, I hope these issues are resolved for now and we can get on with making cool stuff happen.

Cheers
Average of ratings: Very cool (1)
In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Steve Hyndman -

unfiltered by the axe-grinders

Interesting, but not unexpected perspective.

Steve

In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by N Hansen -
Some of us don't have axes to grind but we make general remarks knowing full well they apply to a limited subset of individuals in order to make a point without having to single individuals out. I don't have it out for any individual but it is the behavior that concerns me and the only way I could address that behavior without making it look like a personal attack was to beat around the bush. Under NO circumstances should that be taken to be an axe to grind against partners in general and I don't appreciate it being characterized as such.

It may appear that I have been lurking about and only just came to join this discussion but the truth is that Tony Hursh is on my friend list on Facebook and he posted something on Facebook the other day about the Blackboard patent case and I was curious to see what people were saying about that case here so I wandered into this forum and found this discussion going on and just wanted to chip in my two cents. I'm still stuck in Moodle 1.6 and therefore don't really have a lot to contribute in the main forums these days. I hope to upgrade to 1.7 in the next day or so and then maybe you will see me around.
In reply to N Hansen

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct (1.9!)

by Martín Langhoff -
> upgrade to 1.7 in the next day or so

Skip all the way to 1.9 wink - heavily recommended. We learned a lot during the 1.7/1.8 series.

The main difference in 1.9 is the gradebook - if you use the gradebook you may need to review your grades workflow for 1.9. I think it is for the better but it is also fair to warn that the UI has changed.
In reply to Martín Langhoff

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct (1.9!)

by N Hansen -
I would...if it weren't for the UTF8 problem. I've been using UTF8 content on my site without problems since 1.5 but was never able to get the 1.6 UTF8 conversion to work. I know I still can do it in 1.7 but if I jump to 1.9 everything will be corrupted. Unfortunately, this alleged improvement created lots of problems for something that was already working fine for me before it was even implemented.
In reply to Robert Bussell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Lesli Smith -
Hi, Robert. Sorry that you have stumbled into what I guess I would call a little family squabble. The roots of it, as with most family squabbles, go much further back than just one post, but I won't elucidate further other than to say that one of our charter members can't seem to decide at times whether he wants to come home or torch the house. For my part, I hope he's coming home. There's a plate in the fridge, slippers at the door, and a pillow and blanket on the couch. I hope to see him in the morning. If not--if the matches keep flying at the foundation--sigh--well, our foundation is strong. We'll just keep putting out the brush fires and planting new flowers and shrubs. With this discussion in particular, I'd like to say, "Well, the tiger lilies weren't working here, anyway. It'll give me a chance to try those azaleas I've had my eye on for a while."

With regard to the characterization of my company's direct competition, I would like to say that he employs two teachers I couldn't respect more. They have been around during the heart and soul of most of the development of Moodle as a pedagogical tool, and teaching is their passion. If he has hired teachers of this caliber, he could hardly hold our profession in disdain.

Re: I almost never post on the Moodle boards because while I am a good user of Moodle, most of the help questions are above me. I try to stay away from these types of conversations also due to the flame-type behaviour that can occur.

I can relate to that totally, but I try to pitch in when and where I can. This is what many do, here, and the fact that you have felt compelled to post here attests to perhaps the stake you feel you have in this venture. Isn't that great about our project in total? Everyone can contribute. For my part, I view community development to be as important as developing the software and pedagogy because the constructivist vision at the heart of Moodle makes it possible for it to extend itself beyond just being the newest technological trend.

Hopefully we will see you again helping out in the forums somewhere.

Regards,
Lesli
In reply to Lesli Smith

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Steve Hyndman -

one of our charter members can't seem to decide at times whether he wants to come home or torch the house. For my part, I hope he's coming home. There's a plate in the fridge, slippers at the door, and a pillow and blanket on the couch. I hope to see him in the morning. If not--if the matches keep flying at the foundation--sigh--well, our foundation is strong. We'll just keep putting out the brush fires and planting new flowers and shrubs.

Well now, aren't you being rather "general" and "cute" in your scathing attack wink

Since you want to keep this going, by all means, let's do. Just so everyone is clear, maybe you should identify that "charter member"?  I was content to let this go, but since you insist, I think it would also be good for Martin to identify the "Ax Grinders" he is talking about. A lot of people here are being criticized for "generalizations", so let's get specific...who are you talking about?

EDIT: By the way, for the benefit of Robert and anyone else new, here is the history I'm left to "assume" Lesli is referring to. If that is not it, maybe in the interest of not generalizing, she could clarify.

Steve

In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Lesli Smith -
Was it scathing? I meant it to be firm but optimistic. Sigh. If it was "cute," well I've been called a Polyanna before and was ok with it.

I'm not afraid of the history, Steve. It's there. And I'm sorry it happened the way it did. There was bitterness on all sides--for good reason on all sides as the flaming got pretty intense.

You are helping out so many people right now in so many different corners of Using Moodle. I'm just trying to figure it out. You're being very generous with your time and insights on the one hand, but being very bitter in other places.

I want to let it go, too, but I keep seeing you bring it up again and again. It's not healthy for the forums or for the community. This makes me think it hasn't gone away for you, so what can we do?

Is it possible that we can move on together?
In reply to Lesli Smith

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Steve Hyndman -

Was it scathing?

I'll tell you want...why don't you let a couple of your colleagues, who aren't afraid to be honest with you, read what you wrote, see what they think, then report back here. I'll defer to their judgement before I even know what it is.

You are helping out so many people right now in so many different corners of Using Moodle. I'm just trying to figure it out. You're being very generous with your time and insights on the one hand, but being very bitter in other places.

Well, let me take those issues one at a time...

A. Why am I "...helping out so many people right now in so many different corners of Using Moodle." and "being very generous with your time and insights on the one hand..."

Let me shed a little insight on that. There are people I specifically target in the fourms to help who generally fall into one of three categories:

1. There are a small group of people, some who are still active here in the forums, who in the past have spoke out on issues in the forums, expressing "unpopular" views, and have fallen "out of favor" with the "power base" here, resulting in them being pretty much "black balled" from receiving any help from the gurus, most of the "old-timer" PHM's, the disciples...whatever you want to call them. Anytime I see one of these people asking for help here, I go out of my way to help them either here in the forums or via email. Many people can not afford to speak out on issues here because they need to rely on help from "the gurus", so for those who have spoken out, I make it priority to help them all I can. One of the top disciples (and current Moodle HQ employee) in these forums told me a couple of years ago, after I spoke my mind here, that he was not going to help me for 7 years...fortunately, I don't need his help. But the fact is, other people do need help and the message is clear...be good, or be shunned. 

2. Teachers who ask for help in doing something in their classroom and instead of getting help, get lectured about "social constructivism/constructivism" and why want they want to do it "bad teaching". Usually this insightful advice comes from a programmer (and probably a very good programmer) who has never stepped foot in a real classroom since leaving school themselves. I specifically look for teachers who are asking questions like "how can I moderate forums", "how can I stop all the email", "how can I get rid of this, or that..." and when I can, I try to help "answer their question" before they get lectured about why they shouldn't be doing what they want to do because it's not good "social constructivist" pedagogy.

3. And lastly, I always try to help people who are hosting their sites with "renegade" providers like Siteground, Bluehost, or any other "non-authorized" partn*r.......people who are not likely to get a lot of help from people like Bryan Williams

So, in a nutshell, that's who I try to help.............people who aren't likely to get a great deal of help from "the establishment" (what you would call "community") here.

B. "...being very bitter in other places."

Now that is a very interesting perspective, so let's take a look at my "bitterness", as you describe it. I think the best place to look may be the very issue that spawned this discussion. I would like for you to take a look at this thread....and tell me when you think my "bitterness" kicked in. In the third post in that thread I pointed out a fact that resulted in what I view as a pretty "bitter" attack on me personally....I've been defending myself from attacks ever since....and yes, I've been giving some back and I make no apologies. You seem to think Bryan is a "victim" of my bitterness....I find that pretty amazing. Martin seems to think Bryan is a "victim" of "ax grinders"....I find that pretty amazing as well. I think Bryan is a "victim" alright, but he is a victim of his own words! If he thinks he is being "misunderstood", nothing is stopping him from posting and clarifying his views on the education profession, but I notice he hasn't done that.

On a side note....I've posted hundreds (maybe thousands) of posts in the fourms here over the years...I challenge you, Martin, or anyone else to find one post from me prior to this where Bryan and I have had cross words...seems if I'm "grinding an ax" with Bryan there should be something. But then again, it seems Martin feels there are others here who are "grinding an ax" as well....I don't know who they are, but I'm left to assume he means people like, N. Hansen, Frances, Timothy, John Isner, and maybe even Robert....who knows...I'd like to see some clarification because I don't know what "axes" any of them have to grind.

I want to let it go, too, but I keep seeing you bring it up again and again.

Bring what up? Look at the start of that discussion I linked to above and tell me who brought up history. What you keep seeing is me defending myself when attacked....and I'll continue to do that.

Is it possible that we can move on together?

What you are really saying is "...is it possible, Steve, that you could not be critical of anything around here and just be a good little disciple?" The answer is "No". I'll continue to help, but when I see something that I think is not right, I'll point that out as well.....if you want to interpret it as being "bitter" it makes no difference to me.

Let me also make one other comment about the "bitterness" argument. I think some of the "partners" around here believe that I was making a lot of money off Moodle back when I received this email (the genesis of my "bitterness") from Moodle HQ. But the fact is, when I received that email, I had made less than $5k over two years. This past year I made about $6k from Moodle services and I paid $5k to lease a dedicated server to host my Moodle sites. On that server I operate "free of charge" sites like this (not pretty yet but they're trying), and this, and this.....and I administer other sites "free of charge" like this. I could link to several others. So, when people like you think my input here is due to some "bitterness" or when people like Martin L questions whether I ever give anything away for free...it's actually quite amusing. Moodle has never been about money for me....but I do understand for some, it's all about money.

Now, I took time to write this out in the hopes that even if you don't agree with me, you may understand a little more of where I'm coming from....I'm not going to write anything this lengthy again, so if you don't get it from this, then you're just not going to get it.

Steve

/font>
In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by N Hansen -
I had missed that thread, but Bryan says something there that leaves me scratching my head. He says the Moodle partners are the reason Moodle remains free. I thought Moodle remained free because it had an open source license slapped on it from the beginning. No?
In reply to N Hansen

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Samuli Karevaara -
I think Bryan means that it will stay free. The GPL license can be changed so that any currently open software can become closed in the future. But that only applies to the versions coming after the license change, so anyone can branch it from the license change point and start a version of their own. Something like this happened with Mambo that became both Mambo and Joomla.
In reply to Samuli Karevaara

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Iñaki Arenaza -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

So N.Hansen is right: it's the license, not the funding. Maybe you won't be able to call it Moodle (this is a trademark, so the GPL doesn't apply), but the license will guarantee that the application remains free/open source.

Saludos. Iñaki.

In reply to N Hansen

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Frances Bell -
Maybe its freedom emerges from the continued activity and will of a group of people engaging with, developing, using, promoting, etc. a software package that enjoys the phenomenon that is the GNU license (another artefact that emerged from people and other technologies). The spat between Bryan and Steve (started by Bryan but connected to the previous actions of both and many others) served to highlight some lack of respect by each of them for the part each other plays in the network of human endeavour and technology artefacts that is Moodle.org (and that includes Moodle.com).
What I have gained from this thread is change can happen from collective and individual action. Inevitably, the rate and nature of this change will not satisfy each individual - how could it? But change is possible and happening because there are enough people in Moodle.org who are interested in making change happen. There is also an interest in 'natural justice' and I have seen plenty of evidence of people speaking up for Steve on the occasion that he was badly treated. I also appreciate his careful explanation of why he helps others on Moodle.org. However, I would observe (mindful that this may attract the accusation of being judgmental wink ) that IMHO, some of Steve's interventions may make change less rather than more possible, or at least slower sometimes. However, in the tolerant space that is Moodle.org, change has happened and will continue to happen nevertheless.
In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Lesli Smith -
Thanks, Steve. This does help quite a bit, actually. I'm sorry if I was harsh, but obviously I was operating under the misconception that you were bitter about the way things fell out in the past. If you say you are not, and that you are actually amused when someone thinks you are, then I will take you at your word and know that we can then move forward.

There are things that you bring up here that trouble me, though. If we are under-serving some of our community members, we need to rectify this. I don't want to be like the ostrich in your picture. People have brought this subject up before and it led to the creation of the "unanswered questions" block when everyone tried to pitch in to help. Perhaps that system isn't working anymore or needs to be broadened?

Your other points are very pertinent to the discussion of codes of conduct/guidelines for interaction here, and the fact that you are willing to voice your opinion even when you perceive it to be unpopular is why I value your opinion. It's not the what, but the how. You are right about a peace that is based on a tacit agreement not to challenge authority being a "fake" peace. (I'm thinking of MLK, Jr.'s challenge in his "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" to attempt a real peace that bridges conflict and allows for dissent.) If you don't think we allow for dissent, we need to do something about that, too.

But I also want to be careful about how we set up the expectations for how that is done. Obviously, telling someone he/she is a poor teacher for wanting to use the assignment module that way or accusing someone of only being in it for the money are not productive ways of offering constructive criticism. (I, too, have noticed both of these things happening in the forums.) And I will be the first to admit that I should have asked you if you were bitter and not just assumed that you were bitter, and that probably would have allowed us to start off on a better foot.

Hmmm. I'm not sure what the next step is other than to encourage each other, myself included, to stop making stupid assumptions and ask questions first. Still pondering.

Thank you for taking the time to explain.

Lesli


In reply to Lesli Smith

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Howard Miller -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
IIRC, the thread about the unanswered questions got quite heated. I argued at the time that it was pretty much untrue. The vast majority of questions get a useful answer and I stand by that. If you look at the ones that don't, they either don't make sense (language barrier etc.) or they are so obscure as to mean that genuinely nobody has a clue. I don't want to start posting "sorry I don't know the answer" just to keep the unanswered questions stats down though. I *certainly* would refute any idea that questions are not answered simply because of who it is. Whether all replies are as good as they might be is another matter, but we're human after all.
In reply to Howard Miller

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Bill Click -
As someone who has posted a question and received no response, I have to say that I would appreciate someone just replying "I have no idea" than to be completely ignored.  As least that way I know that someone has read my question.
In reply to Bill Click

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Martín Langhoff -
I would suggest that that is not a good idea. It is normal that you don't get a reply. It may mean that the people who know about that are busy, or that you didn't include enough info (or used terms that people aren't familiar with to describe your problem/need).

And hundreds of people will read it for every single answer, so imagine the storm of pure noise if people said "I dunno". When I have nothing useful to add, I keep my mouth shut wink

When you get no replies, my advise is to try and research the problem some more and post your new findings, even if scant. Eventually, you will get close to formulating a question someone can help answering.
In reply to Howard Miller

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by N Hansen -
YDRC (You don't recall correctly). Maybe you are thinking of another thread...or maybe you are imagining strife where there never was any and creating something out of nothing now, but the only thread I know about this topic was a perfect example of good cooperation among Moodlers. Maybe you thought it was a stupid idea at the time but thank God you kept your opinion to yourself at the time because probably it would not have been such a nice thread if you hadn't.
In reply to N Hansen

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Howard Miller -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
Nicole... I have no idea what your problem is, but why on earth are you having a go at me now? I certainly don't appreciate it.

I wasn't talking about that thread. I can't be bother digging back through hundreds of postings to find which one, but quite a few people got really upset about what was perceived as a large percentage of unanswered postings and I maintained then, as I do now, that the problem was nowhere near as bad as it was painted. I thought I was trying to be *positive* about things and now you jump down my throat about it. Why?

What's wrong with people all of a sudden? So much for "Social Forum", more like "Anti-social forum".

EDIT
FWIW (For What It's Worth) the forum you pointed to *is* a perfect example of good cooperation, but not the one I was talking about. Shame you jumped to conclusions I suppose.
In reply to Howard Miller

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Steve Hyndman -

"I have no idea what your problem is, but why on earth are you having a go at me now? I certainly don't appreciate it."

Priceless! wink

Steve

In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Howard Miller -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
Oh shut up Steve. You're just getting too predictable. I don't even see the relevance. tongueout

Bunch of miserable b******* big grin
In reply to Howard Miller

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by N Hansen -
Nicole... I have no idea what your problem is, but why on earth are you having a go at me now? I certainly don't appreciate it.

Yes, the, "She must have a problem we don't know about, she's suffering PMS, I did something 10 years ago to piss her off, her cat must have died yesterday, so she is lashing out at me" explanation. No, I have no problem, so thanks, but no need to make excuses for me. I'll just have to accept the anti-social label and leave it at that. black eye

Shame you jumped to conclusions I suppose.

As I said, "Maybe you are thinking of another thread." That's hardly jumping to conclusions. I gave you the benefit of the doubt there, but you seem to have ignored it and considered only the second half of the sentence.

Whether 10 questions or 10,000 go unanswered, if you are the person whose question goes unanswered, then statistics about how many other questions went unanswered are meaningless. It doesn't mean your problem is any less critical or problematic for your own Moodle installation.
In reply to N Hansen

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Anthony Borrow -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
I thought I remembered at one point there being a block that showed a list of some unanswered posts. If we each commit to doing one a day, I'm sure we could setup something like the educational initiative in the U.S. called "No Child Left Behind" and call it "No Questions Unanswered". Peace - Anthony
In reply to Anthony Borrow

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Lesli Smith -
"The No Child Left Behind" Block. wide eyes That's funny. big grin Point taken. (At least for those of us who are completely and totally frustrated with NCLB.)

It occurred to me sometime last night that what we might try instead of trying to make sure every question gets answered and feeling guilty if we don't have time to get to half of them, is to work out a way to better communicate to people that are new to online communication and might not understand that's a normal occurrence in forums, "It's okay; that's normal. Here's what you might want to try if you still need an answer." I have a couple ideas, but no time to post now.

Thanks, Anthony, for applying humor. smile
In reply to Lesli Smith

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by John Isner -
I agree with Howard. The majority of unanswered questions go unanswered because there's something wrong with the question. Sometimes I'll look at a question for a minute before concluding that I can't puzzle it out and then deciding it would be too much effort to request additional information or clarification. I hit the delete key.

An block that repeatedly shows me these questions should be called the Unanswerable Questions block smile

The real problem is how to inform the questioner that their question is unanswerable. It is a social problem that cannot be solved with technology.

We discussed the problem here. Several people proposed creating rules for asking questions, or adopting rules written by other organizations. Unfortunately, we couldn't agree, either on (1) the rules themselves or (2) the best way to point people to the rules. So the discussion ended without a resolution, and current Best Practice for responding to unanswerable questions is ... silence.

To make significant headway with unanswered questions, we're going to stop being so nice, come up with some hard rules that we can agree on, and reply to the questioner with a pointer to the rule that they need to follow.

Here's a dump of my bibliography of discussions on "asking questions"

Discussion:
http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=27837
The Big One. Mentions the resources listed below

How to ask questions the smart way (Eric S. Raymond)
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

How to ask a question (Microsoft):
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375

Moodle.org's official policy:
http://moodle.org/mod/resource/view.php?id=1361

Tim Kellers' nascent attempt to create an article in the docs wiki
http://docs.moodle.org/en/Moodle_Forum_Help



In reply to John Isner

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by A. T. Wyatt -
Just an observation, but it seems to me that in the last three years (probably related to the introduction of MoodleDocs), the questions have changed a lot. Formerly, there were more questions about "how to" do things in Moodle. Now, more questions revolve around server issues or coding.

Those of us who are strongest in "how to" skills have less ability to contribute answers. Fewer people are left to answer technical questions. And many of those questions (IMHO) are rather on the arcane side--with the endless stack combinations, it is awfully hard to suggest a specific answer to an ill-defined problem.

I think that situation contributes heavily to the "silence" you mention. I don't have any good suggestions for how to improve matters!

atw

In reply to A. T. Wyatt

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Lesli Smith -
Good observations, A.T. I agree that fewer questions are on the end user side. Sometimes I wonder if that's because people are intimidated by the prospect of asking a "stupid" question amongst such very smart people. I know I was for a long time. My colleagues at MR had a time of it convincing me to try it out a few years ago, and now I love it. smile

Anyway, the idea I had last night was to make sure that Tim Kellers' wiki summary of help tips is posted as a link in some of the forums where new users might be likely to go first. Maybe the general problems forum and the core mods forums and the teaching strategies forums. Anywhere that might not seem like it's mostly a tech-wizard hangout. wink

I don't know what your experience has been with trying to anticipate course navigation issues for your participants, but this has been one solution we have tried with some success.

Perhaps the heading: For New Forum Users or something. Thanks for posting the link to the wiki for forum help, again, John. Since you did it, I won't do it again as I had planned to do this morning.
In reply to Lesli Smith

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Frances Bell -
This is a very interesting topic - each time it comes up wink
First I thought about automated approaches that might prompt users to enter the right sort of data (e.g. info Tim mentions in the Wiki as drop down boxes), then embedding the help in the reply box (an extension of the ? button). Then it occurred to me, as others have said, that not all posts are questions e.g. several of the 0s here in Moodle Lounge are announcements rather than questions.
Then I thought of the scale of Moodle.org as compared with an educational implementation. So many people whizzing in and out, so many forums on Using Moodle is probably on a different scale from most 'courses' in formal education.
I wondered if the needs of Moodle.org newbies might be different from that of students who are likely to have semi-formal inductions/training. When thinking of a comparable example of forums serving a transient and large population, I thought of World of Warcraft. The 'official' forums weren't much help but this one is interesting. In Moodle forums, like with most forums, once you get in you have lost the wider context, just seeing discussions then postings.
I wondered if , in Moodle.org at least, it would be useful if those posting could still see a wider context with links to Help, FAQs, etc.
There is a lot of useful help available, it's just not that easy for new users to find it.
Of course other may point to counterexamples, but I wonder if Using Moodle is straining the concept of a course to the limit.
In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by A. T. Wyatt -
Hmm, well I usually don't think of it as a "course" except in the technical sense. I think of it as a huge network of conversations. A sort of hub?

I like having all the forums in one place, because I can go from one to another with little effort. Having things split up into different courses, for example, would make it harder for me to follow the flow. I started out as a new user a few years ago and was delighted to find that I was soon able to turn around and help others. That transition is something positive, I think, and something we would want to foster.

When I think about whether or not it would be beneficial to have a more formal "introduction to moodle" area, I usually decide it might not be worth the effort. Since so many people use moodle for so many different things, not to mention the rapid advancement of the software, AND the various skill levels and approaches (instructor, admin, business person, etc.), could we even hope to come up with a solution that helps everyone? I think the wiki is the most practical solution (even though I know it is not perfect).

I would like to know if someone comes up with a solution! We might be able to replicate the idea at our own institutions as additional support for students and faculty.

atw

In reply to A. T. Wyatt

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Frances Bell -
I wasn't suggesting having multiple courses - just pointing out the implications of it being one course. The Moodle Lounge 'course' has this strange feature that people can post without being enrolled (or maybe they just enrol , post, unenrol) that means that the user profile click doesn't work for everyone. So I am not suggesting splitting up Using Moodle.
What do you think about having links to help at the point of viewing the forum and reading/making posts? Would that help new users?
In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by A. T. Wyatt -
Sorry, I misunderstood! I probably am not envisioning the same thing as you are. In Using Moodle there are some resources in the topic summary area for new people. I am thinking about "WELCOME! Are you new? Confused? Please start here!" The first topic is "Getting started with Moodle" and there is a link to "Moodle Documentation" and a "Glossary of common terms" at the top of that topic.

If you enter a forum (instead of reading through the recent activity block to get the latest entries), there is usually some explanatory text and sometimes a link. Here is an example from General Problems:
http://moodle.org/mod/forum/view.php?id=50

The unanswered questions block did generate some activity for a while. For myself, I check the recent activity block several times a day. If I see something I *can* answer, I do. If not, then it disappears for me. Often I go back and check my own posts to see if a followup post came in and I need to address it. If I did not know the answer, or ever look at the post for help, then it is well and truly gone. I don't usually look at "last 7 days" of activity, for example, because the amount of information is too great. I have, in the past, taking a more proprietary role in the attendance forum. When we were working on that plugin, I checked the attendance forum itself every day to answer questions and file bug reports. I still kind of keep an eye on that one. Anthony keeps an eye on gradebook, and Tim keeps an eye on Quiz.

One problem with adopting a forum is that some, such as general problems, might contain ANYTHING. You would certainly need a team to watch over that one! smile A second problem is that we are mostly volunteers here, so it might not be realistic to expect a very structured approach.

I don't mean to be negative here, although it might sound like it. I just can't really think of much to add to what Helen, et al. has already put into place! The rest is just thousands of interactions between moodlers. I think most of them are positive. Sometimes things fall short of ideal.

atw
In reply to A. T. Wyatt

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Lesli Smith -
Hi, A.T. I think we might be getting wires crossed again--more due, probably, to the fact that I was in a hurry and didn't explain myself well when I posed the idea of putting links in forum directions for new users, particularly a link to the seeking help in forums tips that Tim Kellers put together.

It may or may not help at all to have those links strategically placed in the directions of forums that might attract newbies, but mostly I'm trying to account for the many ways a person can end up in a forum. There are so many entry points. The way you enter forums (as do I most of the time) would bypass the directions completely, but I was thinking that perhaps new people who are exploring the course for the first time might pop in and out of forums to view the directions and see what each is about. Hopefully they do also see the "Welcome" resource at the top of the course, which is very helpful. It's been my experience, though, that some participants in our trainings don't necessarily navigate from top down in a course as would be expected, so I'm trying to account for that by putting the occasional redirection for new users back to the top of the course/to the docs/back to the welcome resources or whatever.

I completely agree that there is much in the docs that we have as ready resources. We've found in our trainings, though, that we need to prod people a little bit to go there--provide as many opportunities as we can to give them links and access points in the wiki to get them comfortable with using it. Does this make more sense?

I don't think forum adoption is a viable solution, either, but I don't think that's what Frances had in mind. I could be wrong...
In reply to John Isner

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Martín Langhoff -
John - good idea, except that rules are not appropriate for this. We can give hints and suggestions, which are a lot more helpful.

A problem is, by definition, new (at least to the person with the problem! wink ), so you can't apply rules to a problem you don't quite yet understand, specially during the early phase, when you don't even have good words to describe it. And it's at that early phase that people need help and hints.
In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Martín Langhoff -
Just a few (somewhat rambling) notes on this - human language and conventions are very ambiguous. That's why you can make jokes, be poetic (or romantic wink )... and it is also why you can play diplomacy.

So I am fairly comfortable with the fact that rules will always be fuzzy. They are in my house, for example -- there isn't a written code of conduct in it, but there sure are expectactions of civility. And even if there was a code of conduct, I would not enjoy to dealing with anyone trying to test the limits of it.

(I am thinking of a particular attitude that sometimes teenagers get into - but definitely not exclusive to that age! - where they try to find your boundaries.)

Social mores and civility are very fluid things -- and we are all wired to naturally follow them. If you want to participte in the social commons we have here, switch those antennae on, and try to be positive. If you want to be annoying, well, there might be some rules defining boundaries that people will use to defend themselves. The interesting thing is that by the mere act of pulling out the rulebook, people are saying that you have broken unwritten rules that people may not even be conscious of.

I sometimes misstep myself [ who doesn't sad ], but if I notice I am making people uncomfortable or unhappy, I try to figure out what I can do to turn the situation around.

The main unwritten rule here is - IMHO - that we are all here to help Moodle improve. So discussions in moodle.org are for the furthering of knowledge around/about moodle, e-learning and related things. A second unwritten rule is that we very strongly prefer positive discussion - people frown upon purely negative and critical discussion (I think this comes from people in the education world knowing that negative feedback... often has negative effects). Within the development part, another implied rule is that discussion is only good if it is followed by working code (to avoid bikeshedding).

And a final (but personal) rule is: participate as long as you are enjoying yourself! If you think the place stinks... go elsewhere. Before jumping into Moodle in full I spent a lot of time looking at both technical and social aspects of it.

I have similarly stopped using and/or contributing in projects where I don't think the technical and social mix is good. Time is too valuable! smile
In reply to Martín Langhoff

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Frances Bell -
Martin, Your unwritten 'rule' was already written if you check out the Wiki smile.
I think that this has been a useful discussion, and I am fairly comfortable that avoiding blatant advertising whilst being able to talk about commercial services (Moodle Partner or otherwise) will operate fairly smoothly in Moodle Lounge. There does seem to be some doubt about whether or not that is/will be the case in other venues e.g. Moodle for Business Uses.
Perhaps this topic and the new Wiki entry should be started as a topic for discussion in that space.
It's an interesting point that you make about positivity Martin. Whilst a positive attitude is very helpful, decrying disagreement as negativity can be coercive, stifling valid alternative points of view. I think we are back to civil disagreement. Effective change can emerge from constructive conflict, and I don't think we should be frightened of disagreeing with each other.

In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Anthony Borrow -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Frances - I think the operative phrase is "constructive conflict". As long as the disagreement moves things forward I do not find it to be negative (of course then it is a matter of who gets to judge whether it is positive or negative) but I think if I am honest with myself about my intentions it becomes fairly obvious whether I am being positive or negative. I agree that we should not fear disagreeing with one another as it is a sign of a healthy community. Typically we only bother to disagree about things that are important to us. The key is to discover how to disagree with one another and establish some sense of boundaries that help to indicate what is fair. Oftentimes these are unwritten guides and there are no easy answers. I think we each strive to do our best to contribute to these discussions hoping that our participation will ultimately have a positive impact. Peace - Anthony
In reply to Martín Langhoff

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Timothy Takemoto -

Unwritten rules are good when they promote fuzziness and flexibility but unwritten rules that are neither fuzzy nor flexible, yet somehow unmentionable are are not so good. 

BTW as an aside, Martin Langhoff wrote: "I think this comes from people in the education world knowing that negative feedback... often has negative effects."
As an aside, there is a theory in the cultural psychology of learning that Japanese learners thrive on negative feedback and even react negatively to postive feedback.

In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: article on negative feedback in cultural contexts

by Lesli Smith -
Very interesting research article, Tim. I had to stop reading before really getting into the details of their study's statistics, but the summary conclusions were compelling. Thanks!
In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by Frances Bell -
I found it interesting that Baumeister, whose research was in the are of self esteem has changed his mind.
In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle.org Forums Codes of Conduct

by N Hansen -
Ever since I had an English teacher in high school who thought it was his mission as a teacher to teach us self-esteem, which he did through criticizing us and bragging about himself, I have always been suspicious of the whole self-esteem thing. The idea that it can be taught or somehow drilled into people through external methods never made any logical sense. If external factors are necessary to develop it, you can't call it self esteem, can you? Either you have it, or you don't.