Some discussions and replies are ephemeral. Others are keepers. Suggestions.
1) For automatic pruning, set an expiration date which auto-deletes a writer's reply in their choice of, say, 10/20/30 days because they know it will become stale and of little or no interest to readers in the longer term. Admin should be able to make a default setting for auto pruning. Same for the original discussion post.
2) OTH, a writer can select "sticky" (non-delete) if the post has lasting value into the future. Give Admin the option to over-ride an auto-delete.
3) For the cream-of-the-cream posts, let Admin add an icon to advise future readers of valuable content worth reading first.
(This message should self-destruct in 20 days)
Suggestions: expiration date / sticky / major
Number of replies: 20
Re: Suggestions: expiration date / sticky / major
Excellent suggestions. What would the GUI look like for this to the user? To the admin? Would you fill out a feature request on the bug tracker with this suggestion?
Thanks.
Thanks.
Re: Suggestions: expiration date / sticky / major
Following your prompt, I have added a feature request to bug tracker.
To address qualms about deletions, I have revised the idea so the writer chooses "hide after n days" rather than physical deletion. Forum view would have a toggle to suppress stale posts or display everything in all its gory detail.
Thus writers self-moderate the forum to allow new viewers to suppress the chaff and get a quicker vital view of the forum.
For the posts of most-temporary value, a further choice of "delete in n days" would be a soft-delete. The record would not display, even in the toggle "unhide" view, except to admin and the original writer who could edit status and upgrade visibility at any later date.
To address qualms about deletions, I have revised the idea so the writer chooses "hide after n days" rather than physical deletion. Forum view would have a toggle to suppress stale posts or display everything in all its gory detail.
Thus writers self-moderate the forum to allow new viewers to suppress the chaff and get a quicker vital view of the forum.
For the posts of most-temporary value, a further choice of "delete in n days" would be a soft-delete. The record would not display, even in the toggle "unhide" view, except to admin and the original writer who could edit status and upgrade visibility at any later date.
Re: Suggestions: expiration date / sticky / major
The bug # is 1544
http://moodle.org/bugs/bug.php?op=show&bugid=1544
Further discussion on what this might look like can occur in the bug comments if you wish.
http://moodle.org/bugs/bug.php?op=show&bugid=1544
Further discussion on what this might look like can occur in the bug comments if you wish.
Re: Suggestions: expiration date / sticky / major
The forum is a main tool of Moodle, and the number one tool in my classes. I agree with Ian's points, with my list adding a few more points.
1) Moderator role for each forum: a student, a volunteer, the person who starts a forum could be the "moderator". This also means that a forum can be started, "added" by people other than the teacher. In the GUI creation screen, a scrollable window appears with course member names to select the moderator.
2) Summary post in forum: also called a "sticky". This could be a post of "lasting value" or it could be a post where a student or teacher summarizes all posts. This could be written by the moderator of that forum, or a post written by someone else could be assigned as a "sticky" by the moderator. The stick rises to the top of the forum list, just under a "major" post. See phpBB for a good example of this.
3) Major post in forum: also called an "announcement" in phpBB. I like Ian's description of cream-of-the-cream, that let's readers know this post should be read first. Again, the forum *moderator* decides this (not any user, and not necessarily the teacher). Maybe only a maximum of one of these posts per forum would be allowed.
4) Editing on/off selection: when a forum is created, the creator can select whether posters can continue to edit their own posts indefinitely. Actually, I would have three choices...
a) no editing after x minutes (current system)
b) editing on indefinitely of your own posts
c) editing on indefinitely of any post by any user
Currently this last option is configurable in config.php file but for admin user only. Editable posts is extremely useful in collaborative writing.
5) Contextual references: When quoting someone, you highlight their text first, then click "reply". The highlighted text is then copied into the new reply window, but with a faint box around it and in a different font with smaller size (well done in phpBB, which also shows the name of the writer of the original writer of the quote, "xxx said,..."). This gives a context to exactly what your comment is refering to.
Autopruning might be OK, but I would rather have a more convenient way for a moderator to go through and click check boxes next to posts to keep or prune.
1) Moderator role for each forum: a student, a volunteer, the person who starts a forum could be the "moderator". This also means that a forum can be started, "added" by people other than the teacher. In the GUI creation screen, a scrollable window appears with course member names to select the moderator.
2) Summary post in forum: also called a "sticky". This could be a post of "lasting value" or it could be a post where a student or teacher summarizes all posts. This could be written by the moderator of that forum, or a post written by someone else could be assigned as a "sticky" by the moderator. The stick rises to the top of the forum list, just under a "major" post. See phpBB for a good example of this.
3) Major post in forum: also called an "announcement" in phpBB. I like Ian's description of cream-of-the-cream, that let's readers know this post should be read first. Again, the forum *moderator* decides this (not any user, and not necessarily the teacher). Maybe only a maximum of one of these posts per forum would be allowed.
4) Editing on/off selection: when a forum is created, the creator can select whether posters can continue to edit their own posts indefinitely. Actually, I would have three choices...
a) no editing after x minutes (current system)
b) editing on indefinitely of your own posts
c) editing on indefinitely of any post by any user
Currently this last option is configurable in config.php file but for admin user only. Editable posts is extremely useful in collaborative writing.
5) Contextual references: When quoting someone, you highlight their text first, then click "reply". The highlighted text is then copied into the new reply window, but with a faint box around it and in a different font with smaller size (well done in phpBB, which also shows the name of the writer of the original writer of the quote, "xxx said,..."). This gives a context to exactly what your comment is refering to.
Autopruning might be OK, but I would rather have a more convenient way for a moderator to go through and click check boxes next to posts to keep or prune.
Re: Suggestions: expiration date / sticky / major
Out of all of these suggestions, I tend to just want #5. I think a record is a record is a record of past discussions. Pruning indicates a kind of summarizing. I think the forums track not only what we finally want to say, but how we get there. In terms of education, that journey is the most critical one for a teacher and student to understand and value and review.
Re: Suggestions: expiration date / sticky / major
I want students to learn to listen, read, combine, and synthesize all ideas of a group into an attempted consensus. That is the role of a summary posting. I want that summarizing not done by me, but by the students. For example, I would have each student chose a different topic, make a forum, be the moderator of that forum, and take responsibility for facilitating that discussion. My role would be to teach good facilitation skills.
In addition, let's not think of forum discussion as linear. It is not just a serial chain of postings. Bits and pieces of knowledge get created into a larger whole. Ebbs and flows make it like a wave which hits a climax, then returns for new comments and deliberation.
In addition, let's not think of forum discussion as linear. It is not just a serial chain of postings. Bits and pieces of knowledge get created into a larger whole. Ebbs and flows make it like a wave which hits a climax, then returns for new comments and deliberation.
Re: Suggestions: expiration date / sticky / major
I agree that discussion isn't linear. And I commend that you involve your students in facilitating skills and have them keep track (and summarize) what gets done.
But I'm concerned by partial records. I remember being in a creative writing workshop as an undergrad. By then, I had actually been in six or seven workshops and was quite experienced crossing out lines that were weak and pruning the work of others.
My teacher was horrified. He said, why did you cut that out? I said, "because it wasn't clear." His response: "aren't the things that are hardest to say likely to be unclear in the first draft? aren't the things that are hardest to say probably the most important things to figure out?"
Since then, I've spent a great deal more time thinking about revision and about cleaning up old drafts, and the value of keeping old versions or disposing of them. At this stage in a student's career (I'm talking 5th grade through college), I think saving EVERYTHING that they've written has value because they (or the teacher) can track habits, track preoccupations...track the progression from early draft to articulation.
With paper, this dream of saving everything was not logistically possible. With Moodle, I think there is a greater chance.
Still, these comments are just my two cents and I hope that Moodle continues to be flexible enough for a variety of different uses by teachers.
best,
Tom
But I'm concerned by partial records. I remember being in a creative writing workshop as an undergrad. By then, I had actually been in six or seven workshops and was quite experienced crossing out lines that were weak and pruning the work of others.
My teacher was horrified. He said, why did you cut that out? I said, "because it wasn't clear." His response: "aren't the things that are hardest to say likely to be unclear in the first draft? aren't the things that are hardest to say probably the most important things to figure out?"
Since then, I've spent a great deal more time thinking about revision and about cleaning up old drafts, and the value of keeping old versions or disposing of them. At this stage in a student's career (I'm talking 5th grade through college), I think saving EVERYTHING that they've written has value because they (or the teacher) can track habits, track preoccupations...track the progression from early draft to articulation.
With paper, this dream of saving everything was not logistically possible. With Moodle, I think there is a greater chance.
Still, these comments are just my two cents and I hope that Moodle continues to be flexible enough for a variety of different uses by teachers.
best,
Tom
Re: Suggestions: expiration date / sticky / major
This keeping old versions that allow compare is one of the feature of wiki
Re: Suggestions: expiration date / sticky / major
About permanent editing or pruning ... I think forums ARE a linear thing, at least in time. It's a discussion and I totally agree with Tom, the records should never be open for revision.
Firstly, having the record provides an opportunity for reflection and for learning to be illustrated clearly. If all you have is a finished product then how can you evaluate the learning anyone has done?
Secondly, it would also be extremely irritating if people continually re-edited things that you had replied to.
Finally, there is a strong danger of overloading Moodle modules with functionality here and making them too complex to understand.
However, Don, if you want to do collaborative editing there is the new Wiki module ... it's custom-designed for this purpose!
Firstly, having the record provides an opportunity for reflection and for learning to be illustrated clearly. If all you have is a finished product then how can you evaluate the learning anyone has done?
Secondly, it would also be extremely irritating if people continually re-edited things that you had replied to.
Finally, there is a strong danger of overloading Moodle modules with functionality here and making them too complex to understand.
However, Don, if you want to do collaborative editing there is the new Wiki module ... it's custom-designed for this purpose!
Re: Suggestions: expiration date / sticky / major
OK, you guys are starting to gang up on me. 
About permanent editing or pruning ... I think forums ARE a linear thing, at least in time. It's a discussion and I totally agree with Tom, the records should never be open for revision.
"Never" say never.
There are times a forum should be set up non-editable and times when it should be editable. We should trust the facilitator to sense when it is appropriate.
Firstly, having the record provides an opportunity for reflection and for learning to be illustrated clearly. If all you have is a finished product then how can you evaluate the learning anyone has done?
I agree and like the record and I don't like pruning (not on my list of 5 priorities). What we need is way for students to process their knowledge and put up a summary of the dialogue. It is also *very* useful in community purposes like this where a topic moderator can collect the relevant knowledge and assemble. It becomes an organic FAQ generating tool. Believe me, there is a ton of priceless insights and summaries in this site that are SO hard to find.
Secondly, it would also be extremely irritating if people continually re-edited things that you had replied to.
Yes, it could be. But phpBB handles this nicely by indicating when forums have been edited by the author. Anyway, for many kinds of forums, editing is not necessary--make it an option.
Finally, there is a strong danger of overloading Moodle modules with functionality here and making them too complex to understand.
I and my students found phpBB intuitively easy to use. The problem was that it was just a single tool. It was not a sequenced learning experience of many tools like Moodle.
However, Don, if you want to do collaborative editing there is the new Wiki module ... it's custom-designed for this purpose!
Yeah!
So let's turn our attention away from #4 and go back up to the Ian's original post. The "sticky" and "major" points would be so wonderful. And roles, give me tune-able roles! Even more birds would sing.
P.S. this font changing and re-coloring is soooo exasperating (smiley with sweaty face and look of exasperation)
About permanent editing or pruning ... I think forums ARE a linear thing, at least in time. It's a discussion and I totally agree with Tom, the records should never be open for revision.
"Never" say never.
There are times a forum should be set up non-editable and times when it should be editable. We should trust the facilitator to sense when it is appropriate. Firstly, having the record provides an opportunity for reflection and for learning to be illustrated clearly. If all you have is a finished product then how can you evaluate the learning anyone has done?
I agree and like the record and I don't like pruning (not on my list of 5 priorities). What we need is way for students to process their knowledge and put up a summary of the dialogue. It is also *very* useful in community purposes like this where a topic moderator can collect the relevant knowledge and assemble. It becomes an organic FAQ generating tool. Believe me, there is a ton of priceless insights and summaries in this site that are SO hard to find.
Secondly, it would also be extremely irritating if people continually re-edited things that you had replied to.
Yes, it could be. But phpBB handles this nicely by indicating when forums have been edited by the author. Anyway, for many kinds of forums, editing is not necessary--make it an option.
Finally, there is a strong danger of overloading Moodle modules with functionality here and making them too complex to understand.
I and my students found phpBB intuitively easy to use. The problem was that it was just a single tool. It was not a sequenced learning experience of many tools like Moodle.
However, Don, if you want to do collaborative editing there is the new Wiki module ... it's custom-designed for this purpose!
Yeah!
So let's turn our attention away from #4 and go back up to the Ian's original post. The "sticky" and "major" points would be so wonderful. And roles, give me tune-able roles! Even more birds would sing.P.S. this font changing and re-coloring is soooo exasperating (smiley with sweaty face and look of exasperation)
Re: Suggestions: expiration date / sticky / major
I should have added that I'm not against the other ideas, Don! I just feel very strongly against editing/deleting after maxediting time.
(I should go back and completely change my other post now so your reply quotes stuff that doesn't exist.
)
(I should go back and completely change my other post now so your reply quotes stuff that doesn't exist.
Re: Suggestions: expiration date / sticky / major
Ouch! 
But surely you wouldn't object to an "automatic editing engine" so we could paste politically cool phrases at random throughout topics all over a site. For example, "Software Patents are Evil!", "Boycott Irish IT", or "Bush Hates Trees!".
But surely you wouldn't object to an "automatic editing engine" so we could paste politically cool phrases at random throughout topics all over a site. For example, "Software Patents are Evil!", "Boycott Irish IT", or "Bush Hates Trees!".
Re: Suggestions: expiration date / sticky / major
Clearly, we are all teaching different things and in many different ways--that's a very good thing. What I would like is for the teacher to have the option of allowing learners to edit their work. That fits very well into my way of teaching.
Re: Suggestions: expiration date / sticky / major
For practical reasons (e.g.. students have to log out because another class is coming into the lab), I would love to have posts be editable long term. However, I also think that software risks losing its character if modifications go against the creator's beliefs, and the idea that records shouldn't be open for revision does make sense to me. My solution is to have students reply to their own posts, copying and pasting the original into the reply window before editing it. It's rather inelegant but it works.
Of the features suggested, I believe the sticky feature and/or the major post feature would be the most valuable.
Of the features suggested, I believe the sticky feature and/or the major post feature would be the most valuable.
Re: Suggestions: expiration date / sticky / major
I first adopted Moodle for quizzing from a data-base... Specifically, training high school Science Olympiad members in the 23 events. I'm expanding.
The Forum posts include many I'd call ephemeral, and need the chaff condensed out to make the forum more valuable for future reference even in years ahead.
To have the writer signify the expiration date (or not) not only gives an aspect of automating, but also diminishes any judgement call before a manual deletion and saves admin time.
The Forum posts include many I'd call ephemeral, and need the chaff condensed out to make the forum more valuable for future reference even in years ahead.
To have the writer signify the expiration date (or not) not only gives an aspect of automating, but also diminishes any judgement call before a manual deletion and saves admin time.
Re: Suggestions: expiration date / sticky / major
4) Editing on/off selection: when a forum is created, the creator can select whether posters can continue to edit their own posts indefinitely. Actually, I would have three choices...
a) no editing after x minutes (current system)
b) editing on indefinitely of your own posts
c) editing on indefinitely of any post by any user
Currently this last option is configurable in config.php file but for admin user only. Editable posts is extremely useful in collaborative writing.
Don, I agree with #4. For my own site I wanted unlimited editing times for forum posts. I'm using the changes I posted in moodle feature request/bug #849
http://moodle.org/bugs/bug.php?op=show&bugid=849&pos=2
a) no editing after x minutes (current system)
b) editing on indefinitely of your own posts
c) editing on indefinitely of any post by any user
Currently this last option is configurable in config.php file but for admin user only. Editable posts is extremely useful in collaborative writing.
Don, I agree with #4. For my own site I wanted unlimited editing times for forum posts. I'm using the changes I posted in moodle feature request/bug #849
http://moodle.org/bugs/bug.php?op=show&bugid=849&pos=2
Re: Suggestions: expiration date / sticky / major
Don,
These are great ideas! When I moved my courses from phpbb to moodle in April, I was very disappointed that moodle lacks the great forum features like phpbb.
My students are learners of English, so they often need the editing features for a couple of reasons. One is that they often cannot complete a posting in one sitting. When they come back to it after an hour, they are currently locked out. I understand that they could do this in another place like a word-processor or text editor, but using those just takes away from my teaching time. There is also the added problem of having to lug around storage (an MO at my university).
The second reason is that students are learning many things about English as they work in class, at home (or wherever they study), and on moodle. They should have the option (and I think editing should be made an option) to add and modify their work as they learn more.
Stickies/Announcements: In my courses of 26, 26, and 35, my instructions posts, as well as my example posts go straight to the bottom of the list. On a 15-inch monitor, it doesn't take long for my work to go off my students' radar screen, as it were.
Yes, the contextual and moderator features would be very useful as well.
Out for now,
Jay
These are great ideas! When I moved my courses from phpbb to moodle in April, I was very disappointed that moodle lacks the great forum features like phpbb.
My students are learners of English, so they often need the editing features for a couple of reasons. One is that they often cannot complete a posting in one sitting. When they come back to it after an hour, they are currently locked out. I understand that they could do this in another place like a word-processor or text editor, but using those just takes away from my teaching time. There is also the added problem of having to lug around storage (an MO at my university).
The second reason is that students are learning many things about English as they work in class, at home (or wherever they study), and on moodle. They should have the option (and I think editing should be made an option) to add and modify their work as they learn more.
Stickies/Announcements: In my courses of 26, 26, and 35, my instructions posts, as well as my example posts go straight to the bottom of the list. On a 15-inch monitor, it doesn't take long for my work to go off my students' radar screen, as it were.
Yes, the contextual and moderator features would be very useful as well.
Out for now,
Jay
Re: Suggestions: expiration date / sticky / major
Journals .. wikis ... glossaries ... the new blog module ... all allow this sort of ongoing editing.
A lot of stuff is in the PhpBB forums because it doesn't have multiple modules.
A lot of stuff is in the PhpBB forums because it doesn't have multiple modules.
Re: Suggestions: expiration date / sticky / major
Hello all,
Yes, those are great modules (although I haven't tried them all out yet). I'm working with journals and forums mostly, but they have very different functions in my courses. They cannot replace the use of the forums as I use them in my courses.
I've been using phpbb as an example, but that's just because I used it with students. Virtually all the forums I've worked with allow editing: the forums at Nova Southeastern University (where my Ph.D. program is), WebCT, e107, the Motley Fool, etc.
All we're asking for is the option. If it can't be provided by the developers, there is the line in the config.php file to allow admin editing:
// Setting this to true will enable admins to edit any post at any time
// $CFG->admineditalways = true;
How would I modify this line to allow editing for all? I really want this feature.
Jay
Yes, those are great modules (although I haven't tried them all out yet). I'm working with journals and forums mostly, but they have very different functions in my courses. They cannot replace the use of the forums as I use them in my courses.
I've been using phpbb as an example, but that's just because I used it with students. Virtually all the forums I've worked with allow editing: the forums at Nova Southeastern University (where my Ph.D. program is), WebCT, e107, the Motley Fool, etc.
All we're asking for is the option. If it can't be provided by the developers, there is the line in the config.php file to allow admin editing:
// Setting this to true will enable admins to edit any post at any time
// $CFG->admineditalways = true;
How would I modify this line to allow editing for all? I really want this feature.
Jay
Re: Suggestions: expiration date / sticky / major
Some rather complete code which I am using on my site is listed here:
http://moodle.org/bugs/bug.php?op=show&bugid=849&pos=2
http://moodle.org/bugs/bug.php?op=show&bugid=849&pos=2