Hello!
My name is Andreas Söllei. In the course of my diploma thesis I have been developing a new Moodle module. My work is based on a vision of Peter Sereinigg. The module is based on the recently issued Moodle coding standard v1.9 and is planned to provide similar (yet more simple) functionality as the workshop module.
I apologize for not being present in the moodle.org community until now. Since a few days I have been following the discussion in the forum regarding the development of the new workshop module. Based on this discussion I assume that there have been several misunderstandings regarding communicating progress to and collaborating with the community during the development.
http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=74784
In an attempt to improve our collaboration I kindly refer to our server for development where you can find an alpha version of our module. This version already contains the core functionality and is continuously supported by me. Currently, I am working on the requirements as discussed with Peter.
Server: http://wwwu.edu.uni-klu.ac.at/asoellei/moodle19/
(please register yourself, then you are automatically course creator and can configure your own test course)
I am looking forward to your feedback.
Regards,
Andi Söllei
Many thanks for your prompt registrations from germany, uk, usa and australia! 
At the test server now you can post (sorry that this was not possible).
I guess its not easy to configure and use the module because you have never seen it in action. Here are some tutorial-videos (flash needed and probably internet explorer) where you can watch first steps to start using the module:
defining
defining_criterion
hand in peer solution
teacher review
distributing submissions
At the test server now you can post (sorry that this was not possible).
I guess its not easy to configure and use the module because you have never seen it in action. Here are some tutorial-videos (flash needed and probably internet explorer) where you can watch first steps to start using the module:
defining
defining_criterion
hand in peer solution
teacher review
distributing submissions
Thank you so much, Andreas, to give us the opportunity to work again with Moodle's workshop. I'll try it asap and give feedback.
Hi.
I used one workshop once with a class of 7th graders. Never again.
I'm trying to understand peer light and I can't see the videos Andreas mentioned.
http://www.edu.uni-klu.ac.at/~asoellei/videos/defining.html
are these working for anyone? I have a mac osx 10.4 and flash plugings. Firefox and safari. So I don't think this is my mac.
I used one workshop once with a class of 7th graders. Never again.
I'm trying to understand peer light and I can't see the videos Andreas mentioned.
http://www.edu.uni-klu.ac.at/~asoellei/videos/defining.html
are these working for anyone? I have a mac osx 10.4 and flash plugings. Firefox and safari. So I don't think this is my mac.
In Firefox I have problems to. IE it's no problem.
When you use always *.swf instead of *.html you get the swf-files.
e.g. http://wwwu.edu.uni-klu.ac.at/asoellei/videos/defining.swf
I hope that will work on a Mac.
When you use always *.swf instead of *.html you get the swf-files.
e.g. http://wwwu.edu.uni-klu.ac.at/asoellei/videos/defining.swf
I hope that will work on a Mac.
Ok.
that worked, but what are the links to the other tutorials?
and why the bug on your server.
this is the only website i've seen that fails on my mac client.
please don't force mac people to do bug workrounds.
it just promotes windoze.
i could use an ubutu box, but that is a server I use for moodle and I don't like to use that server for other tasks.
that worked, but what are the links to the other tutorials?
and why the bug on your server.
this is the only website i've seen that fails on my mac client.
please don't force mac people to do bug workrounds.
it just promotes windoze.
i could use an ubutu box, but that is a server I use for moodle and I don't like to use that server for other tasks.
Ok, I see.
I put new links on my testserver.
Now the videos are reachable via Firefox and InternetExplorer.
I linked directly the swf-files.
I put new links on my testserver.
Now the videos are reachable via Firefox and InternetExplorer.
I linked directly the swf-files.
I urge everyone who cares about the fate of the Workshop module to register an account on Andreas' moodle site, try the proposed version, and join the forum discussion there.
Remember: the proposed version threatens to replace both Exercise and Workshop, two of the best-designed and most powerful activities in Moodle.
Speak now or forever hold your peace.
Remember: the proposed version threatens to replace both Exercise and Workshop, two of the best-designed and most powerful activities in Moodle.
Speak now or forever hold your peace.
Dear all!
Concerning to the integration of the first version of our peer-module we don't have information about the integration process.
Are there documents or check lists??
Many thanks for your help!!
We are happy to inform you that at our university a new developer (Chris Harrer) started his work and diploma theses on developing an advanced version of our peer module. Discussions will start here at moodle.org and on our testserver.
Concerning to the integration of the first version of our peer-module we don't have information about the integration process.
Are there documents or check lists??
Many thanks for your help!!
We are happy to inform you that at our university a new developer (Chris Harrer) started his work and diploma theses on developing an advanced version of our peer module. Discussions will start here at moodle.org and on our testserver.
Can you please keep the discussions here as much as possible? That way more people will be have the possibility of finding it.
As a first step towards any possible use of this mdule by the Moodle community - can you please make the code available for review? I am happy to set you up with CVS access to cvs:/contrib to work on it in there.
You really need to have some heavy review of the code itself before starting to add advanced features, otherwise you could possibly produce something impossible to maintain (and thus basically useless).
Some useful documents (which I hope Peter pointed you to before starting on this project) are here:
http://docs.moodle.org/en/Developer_documentation
In particular see:
http://docs.moodle.org/en/Development:Overview#Major_Development
As a first step towards any possible use of this mdule by the Moodle community - can you please make the code available for review? I am happy to set you up with CVS access to cvs:/contrib to work on it in there.
You really need to have some heavy review of the code itself before starting to add advanced features, otherwise you could possibly produce something impossible to maintain (and thus basically useless).
Some useful documents (which I hope Peter pointed you to before starting on this project) are here:
http://docs.moodle.org/en/Developer_documentation
In particular see:
http://docs.moodle.org/en/Development:Overview#Major_Development
Many thanks Martin for your reply!
Please set me up with the cvs-access.
Thanks for the links, Peter is not familiar with coding and developing (he had ideas and the main vision for this project), but we found some documents (eg the Developer_documentation) ourselves and used them.
Our suggestion for our next steps:
Please set me up with the cvs-access.
Thanks for the links, Peter is not familiar with coding and developing (he had ideas and the main vision for this project), but we found some documents (eg the Developer_documentation) ourselves and used them.
Our suggestion for our next steps:
- Implementing the missing functionality in our discussions (eg John's posts)
- temporarily stop the requirements and work on a good code quality and hand out then the code for review
I can't set you up with CVS access without seeing the code and your account details.
We're just moving CVS, so the account could take a while, but the code would be useful to see right away.
We're just moving CVS, so the account could take a while, but the code would be useful to see right away.
Martin - Is this something you would like to see setup in CONTRIB where the code can be evaluated? If you would like I could create a space for it or wait until CVS is moved. Either way if Andreas gives me to code I would be happy to make sure it gets posted somewhere so that it can be reviewed. Peace - Anthony
I sent the source code at first to martin@moodle.com and skodak@moodle.org until the upload is possible.
What do people think about peerlight so far, based on the user interface? Is it better than workshop and exercise? Does it cover 95% of the things you want to use it for?
Peer Lite is missing two essential features: (1) self assessment (2) assessment of one or more examples provided by the teacher. Without these, Peer lite can not be considered as a replacement for either Exercise or Workshop. In addition, the grading methodology of Peer Lite is questionable.
Below is a summary of comments that I made in the Peer lite forum apropos of the above.
Below is a summary of comments that I made in the Peer lite forum apropos of the above.
- Workshops and Exercises emphasize the development of critical thinking skills. By requiring students to self-assess before submitting their work, the work hopefully improves. IMO self-assessment is an essential part of Exercise and Workshop, and should be required of any module that replaces them.
- The example(s) provided by the teacher give the Workshop a calibration phase. During this phase, teacher and students come to a common understanding of what the criteria mean and how they are to be applied. Practice assessments contribute to the quality of self-assessment and peer assessments.
- It is not clear that the "grade for review" in Peer lite truly measures the quality of the student's assessment, as it does in Workshop and Exercise (in Workshop and Exercise, the quality of a student's assessment is based on a weighted comparison of the student's assessment with the teacher's assessment).
Hi John,
Peer Lite is an peer assessment tool, for the socratic method, to be used in an easy (!) way. We investigated, that most of the workshop useres had a BIG problem to use this modul, because its too difficult to understand, too much params, not clear logic, difficult to calculate grades.
Peer Lite should have an easy to use logic for teacher, who have been "overloaded" with functions by the old workshop modul (at the beginning).
Exampels by teacher should be possible.
Grading is one of the critical points. The workshop modul produced results nobody could declare ... peer lite has an easy to use approach. We included the wishes of the community trough a discusssion process, before Andreas started to develope Peer Lite. What we did is, to devide them into Peer Lite and Peer Advance.
There will be an peer advanced with more features then peer lite, and more possibilities then workshop, with a more clear structure.
I asked Andreas to post more details for peer lite here.
Peter
Peer Lite is an peer assessment tool, for the socratic method, to be used in an easy (!) way. We investigated, that most of the workshop useres had a BIG problem to use this modul, because its too difficult to understand, too much params, not clear logic, difficult to calculate grades.
Peer Lite should have an easy to use logic for teacher, who have been "overloaded" with functions by the old workshop modul (at the beginning).
Exampels by teacher should be possible.
Grading is one of the critical points. The workshop modul produced results nobody could declare ... peer lite has an easy to use approach. We included the wishes of the community trough a discusssion process, before Andreas started to develope Peer Lite. What we did is, to devide them into Peer Lite and Peer Advance.
There will be an peer advanced with more features then peer lite, and more possibilities then workshop, with a more clear structure.
I asked Andreas to post more details for peer lite here.
Peter
Hello John!
Thank you for your posting.
self-assessment
In our module we calculate the average points for the peer-assessment.
Should the self-assessment also be in this average points? I would say no, because then students can grade with the maximum points when they self-assess to get more points at the end.
In addition, the grading methodology of Peer Lite is questionable.
Do you mean irreproducible oder do you not like it?
Please explain this point in more detail.
Writing the documentation is a bit annyoing, but we know that this must be done that the users will be able to use the module rapidly and we will do it
Thank you for your posting.
self-assessment
In our module we calculate the average points for the peer-assessment.
Should the self-assessment also be in this average points? I would say no, because then students can grade with the maximum points when they self-assess to get more points at the end.
In addition, the grading methodology of Peer Lite is questionable.
Do you mean irreproducible oder do you not like it?
Please explain this point in more detail.
Writing the documentation is a bit annyoing, but we know that this must be done that the users will be able to use the module rapidly and we will do it
Re: the grading policy of Peer Lite
I agree with Peter that the grading policy of Workshop is hard to understand and that it is difficult to explain results to students. But the solution is not "trivialize and conquer" but to fix the bugs, improve the user interface and provide better documentation and tutorials. It is fundamentally a good system. If we followed Peter's advice we would throw away Roles and many other features of Moodle that users have a hard time understanding.
The Workshop grading policy allows the teacher to base grades for student assessments on the quality of the assessment, rather than the assessment per se. The quality is a function of the difference between the student's assessment and the teacher's assessment. So if the two assessments agree, the student's grade for an assessment will be high. If the two assessments disagree, the student's grade for an assessment will suffer
Consider these strategies used by typical high school students and undergraduates:
I agree with Peter that the grading policy of Workshop is hard to understand and that it is difficult to explain results to students. But the solution is not "trivialize and conquer" but to fix the bugs, improve the user interface and provide better documentation and tutorials. It is fundamentally a good system. If we followed Peter's advice we would throw away Roles and many other features of Moodle that users have a hard time understanding.
The Workshop grading policy allows the teacher to base grades for student assessments on the quality of the assessment, rather than the assessment per se. The quality is a function of the difference between the student's assessment and the teacher's assessment. So if the two assessments agree, the student's grade for an assessment will be high. If the two assessments disagree, the student's grade for an assessment will suffer
Consider these strategies used by typical high school students and undergraduates:
- student A assesses his own work as "perfect" for every element
- students A and B conspire to give each other perfect assessments
- students A and B conspire to give student C a poor assessment (the victim is usually a good student).
- If the teacher assesses A's work as poor, A's grade for his self-assessment will suffer
- If the teacher assesses A's work and B's work as poor, both students' grades for their peer assessments will suffer
- If the teacher assesses C's work as excellent, then A's and B's grades for the peer assessment will suffer. If C assessed his own work as excellent, then C's grade for his self-assessment will be high.
John,
That is a great scenario you wrote with student A,B,C and teacher. Do you know any videos or screen snapshots that take a moodle teacher through some simple workshop creation steps that are free from bugs. In other words, if you have created workshops that work, can you write a recepie in plain english to help me replicate your results. I have 3 students who love to volunteer and test moodle stuff in my classes, which are not distance learning.
I want a workshop where students don't submit a file. I'd like my students to start with a very simple workshop, say where they pick a password and then it is rated on a simple system 0-3 points for:
length of password, diversity of characters, easy to remember, and not too similar to dictionary words
for example: bluebmw325i
would rank, 3 for all categories
That is a great scenario you wrote with student A,B,C and teacher. Do you know any videos or screen snapshots that take a moodle teacher through some simple workshop creation steps that are free from bugs. In other words, if you have created workshops that work, can you write a recepie in plain english to help me replicate your results. I have 3 students who love to volunteer and test moodle stuff in my classes, which are not distance learning.
I want a workshop where students don't submit a file. I'd like my students to start with a very simple workshop, say where they pick a password and then it is rated on a simple system 0-3 points for:
length of password, diversity of characters, easy to remember, and not too similar to dictionary words
for example: bluebmw325i
would rank, 3 for all categories
Joe,
Sorry, but I don't have any screenshots or videos.
I think the Workshop setup parameters are pretty well defined, and the parameter help files give clear explanations. The setup page could be improved, but it is not the main source of difficulty in my opinion.
In my opinion, the most confusing thing in Workshop -- the thing that needs fixing -- is the presentation of results by mod/workshop/view.php. Results are currently displayed in a single table using special brackets
This table completely sacrifices clarity for the sake of compactness. The headings are confusing and the reader must constantly refer to the legend. Why not replace it by several tables, one for each dimension of the total grade? For example, (1) a table of the assessments done BY each student (2) a table of the assessments OF each student by other students, and (3) a table for the teacher's assessment of the student's work. Since each table would show only one dimension of the total grade, special brackets would be unneeded.
I set up a Workshop to demo the scenarios in my last post. It uses the following parameters:
Sorry, but I don't have any screenshots or videos.
I think the Workshop setup parameters are pretty well defined, and the parameter help files give clear explanations. The setup page could be improved, but it is not the main source of difficulty in my opinion.
In my opinion, the most confusing thing in Workshop -- the thing that needs fixing -- is the presentation of results by mod/workshop/view.php. Results are currently displayed in a single table using special brackets
{} Assessment by Student; [] Assessment by Teacher; <> Assessment Dropped;
() Automatic grade for assessment; [] Teacher grade for assessment.
() Automatic grade for assessment; [] Teacher grade for assessment.
This table completely sacrifices clarity for the sake of compactness. The headings are confusing and the reader must constantly refer to the legend. Why not replace it by several tables, one for each dimension of the total grade? For example, (1) a table of the assessments done BY each student (2) a table of the assessments OF each student by other students, and (3) a table for the teacher's assessment of the student's work. Since each table would show only one dimension of the total grade, special brackets would be unneeded.
I set up a Workshop to demo the scenarios in my last post. It uses the following parameters:
- Grade for submission = 60
- Grade for assessments = 40
- Number of examples = 0
- Comparison of assessments = Very strict
- Number of assessments of student submissions = 1
- Weight for teacher's assessment = 10
- Self assessment = Yes
- Assessments must be agreed = No
- The Teacher gives 60 to Perkin's work
- Perkin gives 40 to his own work
- Perkin gives 0 to Roscoe's work
- The Teacher gives 0 to Roscoe's work
- Roscoe gives 40 to his own work
- Roscoe gives 0 to Perkin's work
I agree that the workshop is usefull, but difficult to understand some of the parameters, and the table of results. It is difficult for the teacher, and for the students, and if a students asks a teacher why his grade is the one given, the teacher is in a serious trouble.
Maybe a clear explanation of the process for each student could be convenient:
Teacher grade, peer grades, -> assignment grade (how is computed)
his grades to peers, teacher grades compared to them -> how the grading is evaluated.
Final score.
Maybe a clear explanation of the process for each student could be convenient:
Teacher grade, peer grades, -> assignment grade (how is computed)
his grades to peers, teacher grades compared to them -> how the grading is evaluated.
Final score.
I agree, this we want most, especially in the first version!
It would be very interesting for me, if you think the calculations in our new module are reproducible.
Visit our testsite:
http://www.edu.uni-klu.ac.at/~asoellei/moodle19
It would be very interesting for me, if you think the calculations in our new module are reproducible.
Visit our testsite:
http://www.edu.uni-klu.ac.at/~asoellei/moodle19
I opened another thread for discussions on the follow-up version of PeerLight (PeerAdvanced).
Please post your requirements and comments at http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=84863.
Thank you so much,
Chris
Please post your requirements and comments at http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=84863.
Thank you so much,
Chris
Is it possible to detach discussions on PeerLight respectively PeerAdvanced into a new Forum of the same name? I believe this would be reasonable because discussions could be organized and structured better in this way.
I believe that it is better to move all discussion on PeerAdvanced to the source of development at http://wwwu.edu.uni-klu.ac.at/~asoellei/moodle19/mod/forum/view.php?f=47
Please feel free to comment development process there.
thanks,
christian
Please feel free to comment development process there.
thanks,
christian
Hi:
I installed the latest module of Peerlight on Moodle 1.9.3+. It installs without an error message but I cannot see it anywhere. Also, when I click on Notification,it just shows a blank scree.
Any clue?
Thanks
Agam
anag@imtnag.ac.in
anag.imt@gmail.com
I installed the latest module of Peerlight on Moodle 1.9.3+. It installs without an error message but I cannot see it anywhere. Also, when I click on Notification,it just shows a blank scree.
Any clue?
Thanks
Agam
anag@imtnag.ac.in
anag.imt@gmail.com