OSS Mythology

OSS Mythology

by Dan Keefer -
Number of replies: 6

"Open Source software is rarely very difficult to install. You needn’t hire additional staff for that purpose, so, in fact, it doesn’t really represent a shift of money from Purchasing Software to highing IT staff."

Is this really the experience for most non-technical people? I don't think so.

Take Moodle installation, please. The documentation makes a lot of assumptions . . . like you are running other OSS. As a Windows user by default at work, I see references to working with Windows . . . by page 5 I realize that it means I can load Apache via IE. I see references to SQL Server but when you get to the installation, it assumes MySQL.

Maybe the latest Moodle runs on a Windows server, and maybe you can use SQL Server, and maybe you can use IIS (though several places warn of "issues"), but you get lost in all the documentation that leans heavily toward other OSS products.

I found the same thing when it came to "playing nice" with other data systems . . . again, heavy emphasis on OSS products . . . even the commerical ones.

I'm not complaining, though I'm sure it sounds like it. But what I am saying is that when advocates say things like, "Open Source software is rarely very difficult to install. You needn’t hire additional staff for that purpose, so, in fact, it doesn’t really represent a shift of money from Purchasing Software to highing IT staff." it strikes me that they must be isolated from everyone but fellow hackers.

I think this is one reason why more and more customers are taking the hosting approach because it isn't getting easier. The things we wanted to do 10 years ago are easier now . . . but we don't want to do them anymore.

Dan Keefer

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In reply to Dan Keefer

Re: OSS Mythology

by Martín Langhoff -
Hi Dan - I think you missed the Windows-specific install packages in http://download.moodle.org/ -- actually http://download.moodle.org/windows/ and it includes a link to a good doco page that explains it in detail wink

You seem to have found some incomplete or inconsistent doco. Sure -- happens! -- perhaps you can help us fix it. If you can't do it yourself, at least give us a link to that "page 5" you mention.
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In reply to Dan Keefer

Re: OSS Mythology

by Howard Miller -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
I think it's all relative. Moodle is relatively simple to install compared to (say) most email servers. A lot has been done to make the installation as simple as possible and the upgrade process is even friendlier. However, it is a server side install and it is quite possibly a mission critical application for your organisation and that comes with a great deal of baggage. You need some experience as a server admin on your chosen platform to stand a reasonable chance of succeeding and/or you need to be prepared to hit a fairly steep learning curve to get that knowledge.

My experience with similar commercial products is that a consultant (or consultants) come out for a week to provide installation support and training - and they will charge you a great deal of money (or a great deal of money is built into the price). Similarly, you can pay a consultant to come and install Moodle for you with all the same benefits.

So I guess I'm saying you are right, but it isn't Moodle - Moodle *is* simple to install - *relatively*.

EDIT
Oh - and I think if there is a lean towards OSS then it's hardly surprising as OSS is something of a mindset. If you are using one OSS product you are highly likely to be using other. But, yes, documentation for other scenarious is always very welcome.
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In reply to Howard Miller

Re: OSS Mythology

by Dan Keefer -

First off, I want to thank you, Howard, for the quality of your response, both in terms of tone and content.

That being said, I think you make an excellent point. Of course everything is relative to everything else, but I think the bottomline is that we all forget that the audience here (and on other such forums) is not homogeneous.

In my experience with higher ed., often a non-technical administrator hears a "buzz word" at a conference somewhere and then passes it on to perhaps an only slightly more technical person on his/her staff to "investigate". Everything sounds easy and wonderful at conferences . . . I've presented at a few, myself. Presentations are the Reader's Digest version that seldom truly give you a DETAILED picture of what all went into a successful implementation of the latest "buzz word". The administrator only hears that this new thing seemed to fill an institutional need of his/hers.

I don't pretend to know how best to solve this problem, but if people were a little more aware of the audience they were speaking to, I think everyone would be better served. Those who write that the installation is "easy" would catch far less grief from those who found it anything but easy to install if they were told upfront "easy for anyone with Apache server admin experience" or whatever. And those who aren't qualified enough to find the installtion "easy" would not get frustrated and perhaps angry after spending days trying to install the product.

I think back to when you buy your kids some toy that "even a 10 year old can assemble" and it ruins your Christmas Eve. Things have improved in that many of them now say things like, "You will need the following tools for assembly." A similar "You will need the following skills/experience to install this software." Such things are never perfect but it is a good guideline. If you don't have those skills, you still try to install the software, and you run into problems, hey, you were warned.

As we all know, often the developer of something is NOT the best person to document it's installation/use. It's a totally different skill set and frankly, I have encountered very few people who are excellent at both. Often a top programmer would rather be developing a new project than documenting an old one . . . and it usually shows. Often documentation skips over things because "everyone know that" when everyone doesn't. If everyone should know it, that should be put into the section that advises what experience installers should bring to the installation.

Sorry for what is even to me beginning to sound like a lecture, but I'm one of those in-between people who has a lot of technical skills in the eyes of those with none and very few such skills in the eyes of many in the field. It makes me particularly sensitive to both the "whining" end-user and the "what's-so-difficult?" developer.

Dan Keefer

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In reply to Dan Keefer

Re: OSS Mythology

by Martín Langhoff -

> "You will need the following tools for assembly."

Sure! Software is very complex mixed and moodle sits on top of a very complex stack.

  • The OS stack
  • The webserver
  • PHP
  • DB

and all the installers (and installation instructions) try to do a good job of handling the common configuration of the stack, and some deviations on the norm. So most users find it "easy" -- the problem is that when it's not so easy it suddenly becomes extremely hard.

And at that point it's very frustrating for the user. But I'm sure you'll find those issues with proprietary programs as well. Google for "install hell" and you'll find a good mix of proprietary and FOSS.

In private you've told me more details on your issue. I think it's something in your OS configuration -- not your fault, but something that the PHP installer wasn't expecting in terms of permissions. Or perhaps there's another program or process changing the permissions.

Are you still trying to resolve it? (Or are you mentioning it as an example?) If you are trying to fix it, the installation problems forum is the place. It sounds relatively easy to fix.

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In reply to Martín Langhoff

Re: OSS Mythology

by Ger Tielemans -

Dan, what are you trying to find out? I presume that you are a succesfull reseller and installer of turnkey-professional solutions and are evaluating the combination of your succes with that of Moodle to broaden your market.

People telling that install is easy?.. standalone yes: the easiest stand-alone install is the Knoppix-CD version or the USB-stick: i am waiting for the U3 version. The next one in line is the XAMPP-set..

Integrating?.. no, not easy, never easy: Moodle is not the problem neither the other software...

But the reallife users make a mess of their workarea: the real job is and will always be to help them clean up their life before they/you can integrate and connect Moodle to their business. The old riddles stay true:

  • GIGO? garbage in, garbage out
  • Idiot proof system? only idiots will use it, i am an expert in that area

    

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In reply to Dan Keefer

Re: OSS Mythology

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Hi Dan

Thanks for your insightfull narrataion! OSS is about community, it is built on your enthusiasm, feedback and contributions.

I also understand the difficulties of being the middle man between "non-technical administrators" (decision-makers you mean? wink, "what's-so-difficult?" developers and the pains of the executive staff.

I hope, I'm allowed to comment on a few things as a non-developer.

- Your initial problem was about the documentation for MS propriotary systems. You must understand that most of the Moodle developers work on some sort of a open plattform (Linux, *BSD) or an almost open one (Solaris, Mac OS X) for obvious reasons. Being notorious enough for not documenting on their native plattforms you can guess the state of documentation for "alien" plattforms.

The way out is simple: People like you, who are native to those plattforms must take a dip and document it for others!

> "Open Source software is rarely very difficult to install. You needn’t hire additional staff for that purpose, so, in fact, it doesn’t really represent a shift of money from Purchasing Software to highing IT staff."

Who told you that? This is IT: No input, no output! In my view it is about employing local staff rather than sending money out, it is about building know-how, it is about investing on your future, it is about freeing yourself from the propriatory lock. If I may use an unfashionalble word, it is about freedom!
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