Moodle 1.7 - Problems with learning paths and Custom feedback

Moodle 1.7 - Problems with learning paths and Custom feedback

by Myrrh Lynn -
Number of replies: 7
Moodle 1.7

When I create a lesson, I have noticed that the custom feedback doesn't show properly. This seems to be tied to the "this page" learning path option.

It makes no difference whether Default Feedback is marked "yes" or "no", if an incorrect answer is marked "this page", the default feedback with two options is always displayed. This happens regardless of the question type chosen.

Example: (short answer)
Q: Write in standard form: nine thousand, forty-eight.

Answer 1 (Correct) : 9,048
Response 1: Great!
Jump 1: Next Page

What is displayed:
Great!
(custom feedback)

continue
(takes you to next page)



Answer 2 (Incorrect): 9048
Response2: Watch those commas! Try again.
Jump 2: This page

What is displayed:

Not quite. Would you like to try again?
(default feedback)

Yes, I'd like to try again

(This takes you back to try the same problem again.)

No, I just want to go on to the next question
(This doesn't work. It takes you back to the same problem again.)



When I set the jump path on Jump 2 to Next Page, this is what happens:

Answer 2 (Incorrect): 9048
Response2: Watch those commas! Try again.
Jump 2: Next page

What is displayed:

Your answer :
84206

Watch those commas! Try again.
(custom feedback)

Continue

(Takes to next page)


I need this to work the way all the Help buttons describe. By providing custom feedback to common wrong answers, I am able to help my students identify their error tendencies and show them how to fix their specific mistakes.

I want them to be able to immediately try to correct their errors using the information in the custom feedback. At present, this doesn't seem possible.

Any suggestions on how to correct this?


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In reply to Myrrh Lynn

Re: Moodle 1.7 - Problems with learning paths and Custom feedback

by Chris Collman -
Picture of Documentation writers
Hi,
I will have some time tomorrow to look at both your and Jackie's problems in 1.7. I have had my head stuck in 1.5 and 1.8 over the last two months.

I see two thing. The short answer is not giving the student back what they put in "9048" but rather "84206". And your custom response to a wrong answer is not being displayed.

Thanks for all the info, it will help me duplicate your issue. I have a couple of things on my suspect list. "Student Review" in Lesson settings is one. Custom scoring being turned off is another. I don't turn on the student review switch, so I need to check it out. You could go to Lesson setting's and turn it off and see if that made a difference.

I believe that the jump actually determines if the answer is right or wrong. I am guessing that the student is offered the chance for review if they missed the question, but not if they got it correct. This fits what you presented.

And of course it could be a bug, which I will also try to see if anyone else has mentioned it in tracker.

Best Chris


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In reply to Myrrh Lynn

Re: Moodle 1.7 - Problems with learning paths and Custom feedback

by Chris Collman -
Picture of Documentation writers
Hi,
I am fitting in your issue into other work, so I will first deal with the feedback. I used a bunch of M/C questions.

I was able to duplicate your problem. In lesson settings under Flow Control, I would suggest turning off the student review AND/OR the display review button. I would also turn off default feedback. I believe this will meet your expectations for a student.

Indeed as I guessed, when the student review and display review button settings were on, then when I set the wrong answer to go to the next page, it did not display anything. (Lesson thought the answers were correct). When I set the wrong answer to "this page" I got the two questions. I should add that custom scoring was set to no.

I also would suggest that display default feedback be set to no . My preference is for my student never to see a continue button. If I make no comment on a correct answer, I want it to jump to the next question. But that is me.

I will come back to short answer issue in a little bit.

Hope this helps Chris
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In reply to Chris Collman

Re: Moodle 1.7 - Problems with learning paths and Custom feedback

by Myrrh Lynn -

Hi Chris!

Thank you for working on this for me.

There is a mistake in my post, however. The answers ARE displaying properly - the way the students type them in. I copied and pasted from another question on the last example by mistake and wasn't aware of it until I read your post. Forgive me.

There are only 3 issues:

The Jumps for an incorrect answer must be set to 'Next Page' in order for custom feedback on that incorrect answer to display. If the Jump is set to 'This Page', default feedback shows regardless of whether the 'Display Default Feedback' option is set to 'Yes' or 'No'. It always shows for an incorrect answer and custom feedback is ignored.

Once the default feedback for an incorrect answer displays, there is an error there. The default display link of

'No, I want to go to the next question'

doesn't go to the next question page, but instead links to the same page, just as the

'Yes, I'd like to try again'

 link does. So, there's no choice despite the options.

Here's the scenario I want:

I want to use the Lesson module as a type of Self-Practice & Review where the students attempt the questions and based on the feedback correct their errors.

 If the answer is correct, they move on. If the answer is wrong, they have the option of going back right then and correcting their error or they can move on to the next question.

Afterall, sometimes, there is no amount of help that can lead to the correct answer. Sometimes, the only way to solve a problem is to just leave it and come again later. Being forced to answer a question to which you have no clue about solving can be disheartening, especially if you are in an endless loop.

I have found this teaching philosophy/model SO effective in both academia and life:

When students are allowed to make mistakes and immediately get feedback on WHY their answers are wrong, and then have the chance to immediately correct their own errors, they become better diagnosticians of their own errors. They make fewer errors because they are able to recognize their own mistake patterns. Thus, logic is applied, instead of mere data being transferred.

As it is now, the students have 2 options: 1) is to make the mistakes, get the custom feedback that will help them, but have no way to immediately correct their errors.  2) Make the mistakes, get default feedback that does NOT help them, and be placed in an endless loop of trial and error without benefit of guidance. Neither of these are ideal.

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In reply to Myrrh Lynn

Re: Moodle 1.7 - Problems with learning paths and Custom feedback

by Chris Collman -
Picture of Documentation writers
Posts crossing in the either. I am seeing cross eyed at this point in my day.

I think what is getting in the way is the student review flow control settings. You don't need it and the custom response is more important to you.

The custom response is displayed for every answer. When one does not exist, then the default response is displayed. The custom response does not seem to be displayed when the student review flow control button and student review allow settings are set to yes.

The way to correct the endless loop is to set the maximum number of attempts at 2 or 3 in Lesson settings. Once a student reaches the limit, they automatically are moved along the logical order.

Another option is to tell the student to use their back browser button to go back to the question again. If you are keeping score, the max attemps are counted when they submit an answer. So if it is set to 2, and a student misses the question 2 times but goes back to it with the back browser button, they will not get credit for a correct answer. They can however, visit it again and again and again.

In recap, why you thought the only way to give a custom response to a wrong answer, was to send the student to the next page, was because of your student review settings in Lesson. Sending the student to the next page is one way to tell Lesson the student has made a correct answer. No student review is offered for a correct answer, thus the custom response kicked in.

I think you should say no to both student review settings, and set max attempts to 2 or 3.

Yeah, you want the students to do a self review, but those settings are not going to help you acheive your goal. You want an intelligent, teacher guided review, not a standard blah blah lazy teacher automatic response. And I only mean that in the kindest loving way to those who developed and those who use this wonderful feature big grin . It is time to go home, my apologies and best to all - Chris



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In reply to Myrrh Lynn

Re: Moodle 1.7 - Problems with learning paths and Custom feedback

by Chris Collman -
Picture of Documentation writers
Hi,
I wanted to figure out if I put in 9048 as a short answer, why would it tell me I put in 84206. I could not duplicate it.

As a best practice, I always like to put a wild card for the last answer in the short answer or numeric question. It catches all other answers as wrong. But I am clueless where the 84206 comes from.

I hope my previous post on this subject helps. Best Chris



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In reply to Chris Collman

Re: Moodle 1.7 - Problems with learning paths and Custom feedback

by Myrrh Lynn -

Hi Chris!

I made the changes you suggested and it works. As I have elem students, I want to give them as much "practice" as they can handle. With these lessons, the only thing I want to grade is that they actually do the work, like a complete/incomplete. Thanks for the hard work!

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In reply to Myrrh Lynn

Re: Moodle 1.7 - Problems with learning paths and Custom feedback

by Chris Collman -
Picture of Documentation writers
Great ! I hear you about the grading.

Just as a note, you don't have to display the grade, they will never know that custom score is turned on. And you don't have to add the "grade" in an activity to the "grade" book. Playing with the grading scale might give you complete/incomplete option. But why go there if you don't need to. Enjoy !


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