1. My email to Martin, september 2003
"I think that could be useful a format to submit programmed instruction. Here is what I mean:
1. a programmed instruction course is made of some lessons (probably 5-15) and a final test of the course;
2. each lesson is made of a lot of pages and a final test of the lesson;
3. each page is made of a information presentation (text, pics, etc.) and a final test made of only one question;
4. the page next to each page depends on response to the question (example: 4-choices test, each choice brings to a different page; free text question: go to page "a" if the answer is right and go to page "b" if the answer is wrong)
5. the test at the end of each page give points to the students if the answer is right; the points of each lesson are added in "sum" variable;
6. to be admitted to final test of a lesson, "sum" must be major than a prefixed value.
7. to be admitted to final test of the course, the final test of all the lessons must have ben passed.
8. the student is allowed to do each lesson, final test of each lesson and the final test of the course more than once, only the last result is recorded.
9. the home page of the course should show the link to go to: begin of each lesson, final test of each lesson, final test of course."
2. Reply from Martin, september 2003
"I don't doubt your experience, and I know this sort of programming
is quite popular with many people (especially engineers! I can
say this because I used to think this way too!). I get many
requests, but it's no longer a priority with me. My interests lie in
human connections and tailored, transformative learning."
3. Ray wrote lesson module. Martin wrote in february 2004:
"I'm not at all rejecting the Lesson module! In fact I think it's terrific and I absolutely love it! I've been installing it for people all over the place.
I absolutely love it! I've been installing it for people all over the place.
The Lesson module is a fantastic way to act some interactivity to resources, and the grading is a great motivator too. It's a very strong new tool in our toolbox. Yes, it can be like a maze but as you've mentioned it's an activity that can be used in many ways."
4. I think that only really great men are able to change their mind. Thanks to Ray for the module and thanks to Martin to have integrated it in the 1.2 version!
5. I would ask if the only my two request that are not satisfied yet, could be added, in a future version:
a) to modify the grade method: I would like to give a certain number of points to any answer, the final grade should be = (point obtained/maximum amount of point available). The automatism with logical order is very easy to use in very simple lesson structure, but causes some difficulties if the structure is complex.
b) to have a minimum amount of point in each lesson, and to chain the activity (or, at least, chain the lessons between them and with quiz), so that student can't go to next activity if grade is not sufficient.
Thanks
Luciano
Thank goodness for Ray, that's all I can say, because I would never have written a module like Lesson. 
Hi, Luciano. Interested to see your September post. The one I saw was the "ActiveLessonScript" post in January. It was the latter which started the ball rolling...
Martin, I assume you're referring to my peculiar PHP coding style - Only kidding
If I could clarify your requirement. I have (in the database) got a grade on each answer. (This was to get closer to the GIFT format.) These grades are not set and not used but that's just a matter of adding code. I would image an option when a lesson is created which says something like "Simple Grading/Complex Grading". Complex grading would give extra boxes to set grades against ANSWERS. There are two alternatives when working out the final grade.
If that sounds reasonable to you I think covers your first point.
The second point is more tricky. There's a number of discussions going on about linking activities and some are tending towards individual lesson plans (where lesson is used in a generic sense). Here the Lesson module is no different from the Quiz module... It awaits a general solution. Does SCROM packaging provide it?
Martin, I assume you're referring to my peculiar PHP coding style - Only kidding
If I could clarify your requirement. I have (in the database) got a grade on each answer. (This was to get closer to the GIFT format.) These grades are not set and not used but that's just a matter of adding code. I would image an option when a lesson is created which says something like "Simple Grading/Complex Grading". Complex grading would give extra boxes to set grades against ANSWERS. There are two alternatives when working out the final grade.
- More "important" questions would command higher grades than less important questions. So the grades are used in absolute way.
- Or there's a weighting factor on each question and grades are scaled.
If that sounds reasonable to you I think covers your first point.
The second point is more tricky. There's a number of discussions going on about linking activities and some are tending towards individual lesson plans (where lesson is used in a generic sense). Here the Lesson module is no different from the Quiz module... It awaits a general solution. Does SCROM packaging provide it?
>Complex grading would give extra boxes to set grades against ANSWERS.
That's right. I would need:
a) points are given only if students give right answer at first attempt;
b) I can give points indipendently by the fact that answer brings to a next page or a previous page.
>the grades are used in absolute way.
>Or there's a weighting factor on each question and grades are scaled.
The problem with weighting factors (as usually this function is implemented) is that I must know how many questions are in the lesson to extabilish each weight so that the sum of weights is 100%. Instead, when I begin to write, I don't know yet if my lesson will contain 9 or 10 or 11 pages...
>There's a number of discussions going on about linking activities and some are tending towards individual lesson plans
Really chaining the quiz is the most important thing, but chaining other activities also could be useful , expecially lessons.
> Does SCROM packaging provide it?
I didn't understand what this package does. I never tried Bernard Boucher's linkingbeta, somebody knows if does it work and if is it compatible with moodle 1.2?
Luciano
That's right. I would need:
a) points are given only if students give right answer at first attempt;
b) I can give points indipendently by the fact that answer brings to a next page or a previous page.
>the grades are used in absolute way.
>Or there's a weighting factor on each question and grades are scaled.
The problem with weighting factors (as usually this function is implemented) is that I must know how many questions are in the lesson to extabilish each weight so that the sum of weights is 100%. Instead, when I begin to write, I don't know yet if my lesson will contain 9 or 10 or 11 pages...
>There's a number of discussions going on about linking activities and some are tending towards individual lesson plans
Really chaining the quiz is the most important thing, but chaining other activities also could be useful , expecially lessons.
> Does SCROM packaging provide it?
I didn't understand what this package does. I never tried Bernard Boucher's linkingbeta, somebody knows if does it work and if is it compatible with moodle 1.2?
Luciano
Hi Luciano,
if you want to test activities linking before installing it, log here as teacher/teacher to edit it or to import your own course.
student/student will permit you to test it as student.
You will find here details for using it and its limitations.
Moodle 1.2.1 is already installed.
Have a good testing,
Bernard
if you want to test activities linking before installing it, log here as teacher/teacher to edit it or to import your own course.
student/student will permit you to test it as student.
You will find here details for using it and its limitations.
Moodle 1.2.1 is already installed.
Have a good testing,
Bernard
Luciano, thanks for clarifying that.
Point (a) can be partially satisfied by setting the Number of Atempts to 1. This shows each question only once. There is little point in showing it again if there's no "reward"
.
Point (b) would been OK as with grades the "destination" of a page becomes irrelevent to the grading scheme. The student rambles through the lesson picking up points, it doesn't matter if they go forward, back or sideways.
Weighting factors are not a problem as they are used in a relative way. In effect, the weight of each question is actually (the weight of the question / sum (all the weights)). You don't have to total up the weights yourself.
In this sort of scheme you could imagine the following type of questions:
Question 1
Answer 1 (Correct: a full grade point) -> Quesion 2
Answer 2 (Partially correct: a half grade point) -> Question 2
Answer 3 (Wrong: no grade points) -> Question 2
Question 2....
However, this could be recast with a bit of "micro" structure into:
Question 1
Answer 1 (Correct) -> Question 2
Answer 2 (Wrong) -> Same Question
Answer 3 (Wrong) -> Same Question
Question 1a (with possibly remedial information and easier than Question1)
Answer 1a.1 (Correct) -> Next Question
Answer 1a.2 (Wrong) -> Same Quesiton
Answer 1a.3 (Wrong) -> Same Question
Question 2....
(Some of the answers might be "re-used") With the number of attempts set to 1, the "Same Question" goes to the next question. So, for example the wrong answers in question 1 go directly to Question 1a. (In fact the same route is taken if the number of attempts is not 1, it just takes longer) Now the "strong" student gets Question 1 right (by definition) and gets 100% (one correct answer from answering one question). The "weak" student gets Question 1 wrong but answers Question 1a correctly. They get 50% (one correct answer from answering two questions). Thus in "one" question we've distinguished between the strong and weak students (and helped the weak students more along the way).
I suspect the second scenario is bit better educationally but how would I know, I've never tried it. This sort of "micro" structure can be done with the existing module as it stands. Therfore, I kinda like the second scenario a lot better than the first.
Point (a) can be partially satisfied by setting the Number of Atempts to 1. This shows each question only once. There is little point in showing it again if there's no "reward"
.Point (b) would been OK as with grades the "destination" of a page becomes irrelevent to the grading scheme. The student rambles through the lesson picking up points, it doesn't matter if they go forward, back or sideways.
Weighting factors are not a problem as they are used in a relative way. In effect, the weight of each question is actually (the weight of the question / sum (all the weights)). You don't have to total up the weights yourself.
In this sort of scheme you could imagine the following type of questions:
Question 1
Answer 1 (Correct: a full grade point) -> Quesion 2
Answer 2 (Partially correct: a half grade point) -> Question 2
Answer 3 (Wrong: no grade points) -> Question 2
Question 2....
However, this could be recast with a bit of "micro" structure into:
Question 1
Answer 1 (Correct) -> Question 2
Answer 2 (Wrong) -> Same Question
Answer 3 (Wrong) -> Same Question
Question 1a (with possibly remedial information and easier than Question1)
Answer 1a.1 (Correct) -> Next Question
Answer 1a.2 (Wrong) -> Same Quesiton
Answer 1a.3 (Wrong) -> Same Question
Question 2....
(Some of the answers might be "re-used") With the number of attempts set to 1, the "Same Question" goes to the next question. So, for example the wrong answers in question 1 go directly to Question 1a. (In fact the same route is taken if the number of attempts is not 1, it just takes longer
) Now the "strong" student gets Question 1 right (by definition) and gets 100% (one correct answer from answering one question). The "weak" student gets Question 1 wrong but answers Question 1a correctly. They get 50% (one correct answer from answering two questions). Thus in "one" question we've distinguished between the strong and weak students (and helped the weak students more along the way).I suspect the second scenario is bit better educationally but how would I know, I've never tried it. This sort of "micro" structure can be done with the existing module as it stands. Therfore, I kinda like the second scenario a lot better than the first.
> Point (a) can be partially satisfied by setting the Number of Atempts to 1. This shows each question only once. There is little point in showing it again if there's no "reward"
Here I don't agree. In a quiz, to collect points is necessary to pass the exam, so points are the only reward possible.
In a lesson, instead, where answer should ask for reasoning and not for memorization, to see to have given the right answer is the most relevant reward. Grades can give more reward, of course (but only if mechanism is very very simple to understand for the student: the best thng is simply to tell him: "ten points for you if your next answer is right), but I think (and saw working on some 100.000 students - I am really a bit old) that the right answer is really a very good reward. I think that the best mix is: if your answer is right on first attempt you win some points, otherwise I give you an help (the comment), you return to same page and try again and you have the reward to see that this time the answer is right (but no points. I don't need to distinguish second attempt from third: if pupil doesn't give right answer at second attempt, having had an help too, that means simply that *I* was not able to explain myself).
In a lesson, I would use the grading mainly to suggest the student to go on with the next activity or to repeat the lesson (I'll open soon a new thread on grading and linking).
Of course, there are many tricks to make your module do what I want. I can, for example, put the Number of Attempts to 1 and turn the wrong anwer to a new page really identical to the "same page", or I can extablish an higher grade as threshold...
But the actual mechanism of grading seems me too complex for a good didactic strategy. I don't know if it can be easily changed and it is very amusing to criticize other people's (very good) work...
...but I think that the grading mechanism is the only thing that is not perfectly tuned.
If i can collaborate in some manner (I know less than 10 instructions in php, it is not a great knowledge...) I will do.
Here I don't agree. In a quiz, to collect points is necessary to pass the exam, so points are the only reward possible.
In a lesson, instead, where answer should ask for reasoning and not for memorization, to see to have given the right answer is the most relevant reward. Grades can give more reward, of course (but only if mechanism is very very simple to understand for the student: the best thng is simply to tell him: "ten points for you if your next answer is right), but I think (and saw working on some 100.000 students - I am really a bit old) that the right answer is really a very good reward. I think that the best mix is: if your answer is right on first attempt you win some points, otherwise I give you an help (the comment), you return to same page and try again and you have the reward to see that this time the answer is right (but no points. I don't need to distinguish second attempt from third: if pupil doesn't give right answer at second attempt, having had an help too, that means simply that *I* was not able to explain myself).
In a lesson, I would use the grading mainly to suggest the student to go on with the next activity or to repeat the lesson (I'll open soon a new thread on grading and linking).
Of course, there are many tricks to make your module do what I want. I can, for example, put the Number of Attempts to 1 and turn the wrong anwer to a new page really identical to the "same page", or I can extablish an higher grade as threshold...
But the actual mechanism of grading seems me too complex for a good didactic strategy. I don't know if it can be easily changed and it is very amusing to criticize other people's (very good) work...
...but I think that the grading mechanism is the only thing that is not perfectly tuned.
If i can collaborate in some manner (I know less than 10 instructions in php, it is not a great knowledge...) I will do.
Thanks Luciano, I had a laugh, and I know where you are coming from but... I am not so sure that there is so much of a "change of mind". It is one thing to love a finished product but it is another thing to actually sit down and create it. All Martin was saying in the earlier mail was, I think, that he did not want to devote all that time to it himself (I bet it took Ray a long while). Martin has been very welcoming very non-Martin-style work, if it plugs in, for as long as I have been here. See this for instance.
We are very luck to have a very modular system so that we can all plug in what we like.
Tim