Change in Moodle's license

Change in Moodle's license

by Martin Dougiamas -
Number of replies: 49
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
I'm proposing a small change to Moodle's license to add a clause about the use of the Moodle logo:

All installed and redistributed copies of Moodle must retain the "Made with Moodle" logo (or a visible equivalent) on the home page that links to moodle.com. If you wish to remove the logo, re-brand Moodle, or redistribute modifed copies of Moodle then please contact martin@dougiamas.com to negotiate terms and pricing.

The reason for this is that I'm trying to make Moodle a self-sustaining project so I can work on it full-time, and it seems a little unfair that some companies are starting to pass it off as their own product without contributing to Moodle itself.

Please note that Moodle itself will ALWAYS be free and open-source.

If you have comments I'd love to hear them!

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by Mark Smith -
Will this still be truly open-source?  What about situations where it is connected to a LAN and not on the internet, making "moodle.com" not accessible?  Why not team up with someone and sell it?
In reply to Mark Smith

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
It better still qualify as Open Source! If not then I won't add the clause. Placement of the logo is all I'm asking.

In the case of LANs and educational institutions then the "terms" will always be: "go ahead!" and the pricing would always be zero.

I'm only aiming at Internet businesses who sell Moodle but don't mention they are using Moodle.

Perhaps I should clarify the clause to make this more clear. How does this sound? :

All installed copies of Moodle on public web sites must retain the "Made with Moodle" logo (or a visible equivalent) on the home page that links to moodle.com. If you wish to remove the logo or re-brand Moodle as part of a commercial enterprise then please contact martin@dougiamas.com to negotiate terms and pricing.

Redistribution of modified copies of Moodle must be distributed as pristine base sources plus patches, so that "unofficial" changes can be readily distinguished from the base source.

In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by Shawn Powers -
Yes, there are many variants of open-source. I think that may nix the use of GPL (and I'm not even sure there...) but it definitely can still be considered open-source.

Also -- I completely understand your concern. It's sure a bit more than "rude" to sell Moodle without even giving credit where credit is due. smile

You are of course able to whatever you wish, but I like the clarification as to why. When I received the email, I thought "huh, I wonder why the change of heart" -- I'm glad to see you're still one of us. clown

Thanks again Martin,
-Shawn Powers
In reply to Mark Smith

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by Matt Robinson -
As far as I'm aware, this requirement doesn't impact the license in any way, and really if the link to Moodle.com doesn't work, it doesn't work.. it's brand recognition that's important. The Movable Type blogging system also requires a reference to the software used, and most other CMS tools I've seen online usually mention themselves somewhere on the page anyway.

Not to mention that every online site that mentions moodle with a link to it will give it a higher PageRank on Google, which is always nice. ;)

Finally, Doug, if you change that "made with Moodle" or powered-by or whatever to a copyright notice, it may well be illegal to remove it, which might bring you more success in justifying it. How about something like "Powered by [Moodle]. Moodle is (c) 2002 Martin Dougiamas." in teeny type in a corner somewhere? Make the word Moodle a link and you're sorted. Then you're not only getting recognition for Moodle, you're asserting your copyright (which the GPL strives to protect, before anyone jumps on me for that one; asserting copyright isn't the same as preventing people from modifying and passing on your code).
In reply to Matt Robinson

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by Shawn Powers -
>Then you're not only getting recognition
>for Moodle, you're asserting your copyright
>(which the GPL strives to protect, before
>anyone jumps on me for that one; asserting
>copyright isn't the same as preventing people
>from modifying and passing on your code).

I'm glad someone knows more about this than me. smile

BTW, I will happily keep any and all references to moodle. (Thank you for not naming your product "duck-butt" or something equally difficult for me to explain to my boss. smile )

-Shawn
In reply to Matt Robinson

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Thanks Matt.

Yes, exactly, it's the brand name that's important, and PageRank certainly is a nice side effect. I am hoping that "Moodle" can eventually represent certain high standards.

I'm not so certain of changing the logo to a copyright assertion. I don't really want to blast my own name all over people's sites, and I think there is still some potential for confusion as to whether the copyright applies to the site it appears on (even using the careful wording you suggested). Besides that there is the issue of the the rights of Moodle contributors which I have yet to fully work out.

I was hoping with the original "made with moodle" logo that it would be innocuous enough to be accepted on any site. That said, I have no problems at all with people modifying it to fit into their site design (eg Aquinas did a great job: http://courses.aquinas.edu/) and I'll probably add functionality so that theme/mytheme/moodlelogo.png is used automatically if it exists.
In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by Matt Robinson -
Yes, I see what you mean. Perhaps you could offer a page for people to submit their own "made with Moodle" logos for others to download? It's important to have at least -some- text though, if only for search engines and the visually impaired.

I think your license clause should require a front-page acknowledgement and link to Moodle, give an example, and offer graphical icons, logos and banners as optional.
In reply to Matt Robinson

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
I think you're right that the logo itself it not that important.

In fact (as I think about it more) nor is the placement of the logo on individual sites ... 90% of people seem to leave it there and that's OK - I appreciate that.

As I was re-reading the GPL just now it struck me that selling modified copies of Moodle without providing access to the original source code is in fact a violation of the normal GPL.

Changing the logo is in fact changing the source code. So I probably don't even need to mention this explicitly at all - it's already covered.

So how about this?:

Redistribution of modified copies of Moodle must be distributed as pristine base sources plus patches, so that 'unofficial' changes can be readily distinguished from the original Moodle code.

If you wish to redistribute modified copies of this software WITHOUT including or mentioning the original Moodle software then please contact martin@dougiamas.com to request a commercial license.


I'm working on a stock-like scheme to repay contributors whose software becomes involved in commercial dealings.

I appreciate the feedback I've been getting here and in private email - it's helping me think about this issue in more depth. I really want to do the Right Thing for the long-term.
In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by Paul Crovella -
"As I was re-reading the GPL just now it struck me that selling modified copies of Moodle without providing access to the original source code is in fact a violation of the normal GPL."

What do you mean by "original source code"? If someone makes changes to moodle and sells/distributes it they don't have to make your version available, just the source code to theirs. Considering this application is not one to be compiled they would have a pretty tough time distributing the package without giving their source code in the process.

Please by all means change the license to suit your needs though. The GNU GPL is terribly vague when it comes to covering web scripts like this and shouldn't really be used here.
In reply to Paul Crovella

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Yes, you're right, the GPL doesn't say that, but the OSD does (section 4) ... I was getting things a bit mixed there and hoping that statement could just be added to the GPL and it would all still be considered "Open Source".

Fortunately (unfortunately) after several hours of banging my head on lawyer-talk I see now that you can't just add things to the GPL.

In a way you can distribute 'compiled' code without source simply by publishing a web site. A new clause proposed for GPL 3.0 is supposed to fix this (the copyright holder can force derivative web sites to have download links), but this doesn't help much in this case.

Well, I'll see how this looks in the morning ...
In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by John O'Sullivan -
Hello, I am looking into creating a moodle package for Debian at the moment. I'm concerned that this licence change would make moodle non-free according to the Debian Free Software Guidelines. I'll ask for comments on some of the Debian mailing lists and report back here. Note that according to the DFSG, documentation published under the Free Documentation Licence is also possibly non-free because it prohibits changes to certain marked areas of the documents, so maybe Debian is just too strict.
Finally thanks for a great application, John O'Sullivan
In reply to John O'Sullivan

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Hi, John.

I'd love to see Moodle packaged for Debian, and this change is still very much just a proposal (I've gone through about 8 versions today!)

I'm waiting to hear back from opensource.org (the Open Source definition appears to be what the DFSG is based on). There is also a discussion on Advogato.

I've been reading so much lawyerese today my brain's gone numb! I'm exploring dual-licensing at the moment. I'm not tied to the GPL, but copyleft and open source is a must.
In reply to Martin Dougiamas

You Should Think About Moral Rights -> Re: Change in Moodle's license

by James Miller -
Martin,

I would suspect my comment may be stale, but note that you are essentially asserting a 'attribution' right, that was the source of some difficulty in the BSD licensing context for many.

Also, not that international copyright law interprets the governing laws differently depending on the context, and an author's citizenship and locus of development are important, in the international copyright anaylsis.

For example, AU copyright law may be relevant in much of the analysis of what "default" rights exist.

I notice that the tone of the discussion is quite U.S. centric. I don't recal the specifics, but I seem to recal that AU recognizes a right of attribution. Moral rights (eg. le droit d'auteur) are generally a Continental doctrine but are an important part of why the U.S. refused to become a party for so many years.

Also note that even after the treaty was ratified in the U.S., the U.S. made questionable accomodations for moral rights in their domestic copyright law. Despite the Berne international public law reuqirement to implement certain moral rights, the U.S. basically said, "oh, our law already protects" despite the fact the U.S. has always made quite a point of saying they did not recognize moral rights.

If this is of interest I could provide some interesting U.S. or French case law discussing the issues.

Also I've attached an article I wrote on the subject. I think fundamentally, as you demonstrate, Free and Open Source ("FOSS") authors are very concerned with attribution and it is still problematic under GPL and other licenses.

I advocate a solution whereby FOSS authors assert moral rights of attribution and integrity in teir software. I believe moral rights could provide a more rational framework for the FOSS author to protect their interests and ensure the publics continued access to their work.

Consider this. The reason we have the term copy*left* is copyright doesn't make sense to the FOSS author.

Copyright is about securing exclusive rights to me the author. Copyleft is about securing rights for you to never be excluded.

A right to exclude makes a bad basis for a right to force sharing.

My article can be found at
http://www.nihonlinks.com/JamesMiller/OpenSourceMoralRights/

It's long with the notes but the text is not too bad. You can probably skip the introduction discussion on FOSS and why we as software authors are just as entitled to moral rights as any other poet or novelist..

Find the Table of Contents attached.

All comments and critque of the article are welcomed!
Average of ratings: Useful (1)
In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by James Miller -
Also Martin, you might pay close attention to the MySql guys and their licensing strategies.

An author can choose to license as he pleases. Mr. Raboof can release his software to you on some terms and me on others.

I recommend you seek some legal counsel on the matter before you close the issue. If you have specific concerns about possible infringements there are people who can help you.

I can provide you with some references but first I'd recommend you call my copyright professor and our the IP In the Public Interest Clinic at AU.

Prof. Jaszi is a foremost scholar on international copyright issues in particular. I served as his assistant for several years and helped facilitate the clinic, so he's heard an ear-full of the open source issues.. smile

I'd really encourage you to get some advice at anyrate...
In reply to James Miller

Why Moodle is GPL

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Hi, James.

Thanks for the thoughts. You must have missed the news post which wrapped up this issue: http://moodle.com/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=619

I've basically come to see that changing the license is a bad way to achieve my aims (since people often break licenses anyway, and I have no wish to spend time dealing with legal matters).

The GPL license itself is a brand that carries many advantages (people know what it is, people are guaranteed certain freedoms etc) and so it makes a lot of sense to stick with it. The sense of freedom when using Open Source (and particularly GPL) software is a terrific thing.

On top of this is the issue that Moodle contains code by many different people (all under the GPL) as can be seen on the credits page. In future the percentage of software not by me will hopefully increase!

So instead of the "stick" of license law, I'm going to focus instead on the "carrot" of support (thanks to Greg for this analogy). Put simply, there will be good incentives to contribute to the Moodle project, and many different ways to contribute. I'm going to leave the exact details unpublished for a little while because they are still changing, but I hope to make some announcements about this new stuff soon.
In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by Charles Angel -

Regarding this topic sort of.

I am curious what your position is with taking the Made With Moodle link out...not the logo, but the link...I don't like the fact that it takes the user away from my site...I don't have a problem with giving credit where it is due, but leaving the site is not good.

Thanks

In reply to Charles Angel

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Legally, you can change the code however you want.

On a personal level, I obviously prefer the default situation (logo and link) which is why it's the default. smile But I'm fine with you removing either or both - so it's up to you.

In the hypothetically extreme situation where someone was to remove the logo AND the link, and then redistribute or sell the system under a complete different brand, then I would definitely would not be inclined to offer that person any assistance on this site. wink
Average of ratings: Useful (1)
In reply to Charles Angel

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by Sean Keogh -
You could always change the link so it opens in a new window...that way your site is still there...


Just a thought
In reply to Sean Keogh

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by Marcus Green -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers

It seems to me very wise to stick with the GPL it has excellent brand recognition. The essence of software is not the code it is the confidence in the working system and support ecosystem. If all goes well moodle will continue to grow that support infrastructure.

When I scroll through the projects at Hotscripts.com (where I first saw a link to moodle) I tend to utterly skip projects that are not BSD or GPL, and definitly anything that has a monetry cost. The problem is not the paying of the actual money it is a feeling that I will be limited to one set of developers and if they go belly up I will have nobody else to turn to.

It should be possible for money to be made out of a system like moodle on various support related issues, i.e. hosting, installation, content and consulting.

Marcus

Average of ratings: Useful (1)
In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by Howard Miller -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
Its interesting that some open source projects offer commercial licences to "remove" the logo. I'm thinking phpnuke here. IIRC they had a similar fight with commercial vendors taking liberties.

I worries me and/or makes me wonder where the $300, or whatever it is they charge, goes to. I guess in Moodle's case it would pay your wages to develop the product, but if Moodle is to remain open-source in the wider sense than this would have to be very transparent to avoid losing the other developers from the project.

Anyway, I'm with you the licence change is a good idea. It is important that the Moodle "brand" is upheld. A lot of us have enough trouble promoting open source (and Moodle in particular) in our institutions without commercial operators sneaking open source products in through the back door smile
Average of ratings: Useful (1)
In reply to Howard Miller

Moodle will always be GPL

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Howard, you might not have noticed that this thread is over a year old and even then I was only thinking about the change for a couple of days.  smile

It's not an issue now. Moodle's license has always beeen GPL and it will always stay that way.
In reply to Howard Miller

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by Timothy Takemoto -

Dear Howard,

As Martin writes this is probably a thread that you thought was relevant when it is in fact a year old, and thus out of date.

However I am in agreement with you. The change of license is, or may be, a good idea.

I would like to see ways of allowing the small money to talk.

I wrote this post in far greater length and then lost it all because I pressed a link in an email which refreshed the page upon which I had been posting. I am writing this again.

The Moodle community is somewhat Martin centered. To coin Churchill:

Never in the field of online education was so much owed by so many to so few.

This is one of Moodles strengths. Not only is Martin a nice guy but, he has trained himself to be a good facilitator. This is a very good thing because:

There is a direction of purpose and structure. I have seen debate at phpnuke and LDU CMS about the advantages of a single say in the way that an open source code develops and I can see the advantage

The community is devoid of backstabbing and power-mongering

Martin works till all hours of the morning. As center of the Moodle community, he is motivated to work over and beyond the financial incentives that he receives.

Hell, Martin leads a creative communicative community very well.

At the same time, being a largely personal thing, there are disadvantages. Martin being a human has preferences. We all do. But alas not all members fit in with these preferences.

Sadly, I live in a world apart. While I tend to share Martins preferences, I am subject to standards and requirements for evaluation. I only wish to abide by the conditions within which I am placed because I get paid for doing so. My back is to the wall. I would not test my students, or ensure that my courses conform to Some Crap Old Required Method of backing up were it not for the fact that my livelihood depends upon it.

As Martin suggests those that do not fit in with these preferences can go elsewhere.

But since I like Moodle, have Moodled a lot and want to win, not run, and because it is my job, I would like to see more financial incentive for Martin to conform to rules of institutions, like that, within which I have to live. The license change is one way of achieving this aim. 

Another of the reasons I like Martin's leadership is because he is into devolution hilmself.
http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=5941&parent=27480
http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=3074

It seems to me that we need to think of more ways of allowing devolution by small steps. Other than the change in the Moodle licence "function-pledge-polls" might be another way.

Tim

In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by Timothy Takemoto -

I am sorry my post above did not do it for anyone else. It probably is "way off topic" but I came here to post again because I do not know where else to post and this is important to me.

I would still really like there to be ways of what I refered to as "making the small money talk." Moodle is a massive community over 1000 installations, 1400 users, and many code contributors, or at least would be code contributors.

There must be a *lot* of other php programmers out there. There are of course, as always, many things that users would like. So in order to enhance the effectiveness of this open source community, ways that small users can band together and can contribute to developers, seems like an important thing to have.

This could be acheived by changes to the licence either of moodle with a "pro-edition" (at a low price, and perhaps becoming free after a certain amount of time) or with "pro-modules" (likewise).  

I know we all hate "pro-versions" so perhaps an enhanced pledging system might be more effective. I am not sure how this would work. I will post somewhere else.

I would like to see further increases in the communal-ization of the community.

It is by no means clear that Moodle has "won" yet on my campus at least. The competition is very fierce.

Tim Takemoto

In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by Timothy Takemoto -

   Looking through the site I see that Martin has mentioned on a number of occasions that Moodle will always be free, and that he intends to concentrate on support for income. Also since there is now so much code from other developers, I guess it would be pretty much impossible to create an "Enterprise" or "Pro" edition.
   I mention this now because I am now preparing for another presentation comparing Moodle to another LMS, which intends it would seem to have a pro-version, perhaps. Just for the record.

Tim
takemoto

In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Moodle is GPL

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
There are very good and deeply-thought-out reasons for Moodle being published under the GPL and it is staying that way. The free version IS the pro version.  This is not a group decision as I hold the main copyright to Moodle. Given how many times I've explained this (to you even) I honestly don't know what you're trying to do other than be provocative for kicks. mixed

This is a dead issue, Tim. It's a stiff - bereft of life, it rests in peace. If you hadn't nailed it to the perch again just now it would be pushing up the daisies.

However, as I notice you are stirring up pots in LMS/CMS forums all over the web I won't take it personally. wink
In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Moodle is GPL

by Howard Miller -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
> This is not a group decision as I hold the main copyright to Moodle.

I don't get this? what do you mean? My understanding was that if code was GPL'd then it was very much in the public domain.

Just curious...
In reply to Howard Miller

Re: Moodle is GPL

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
The only reason the GPL holds any weight is because it is based on copyright law. By default, normal copyright law gives all the copying rights to the author only. A GPL license is the author using this power to explicitly grant copying rights to all users, under conditions like 'all copies must also be under the GPL'.

Look at any GPL license and you'll see the (required) copyright notice from a person or company at the top. In Moodle you'll find this on the first install page (clickwrap page), on the admin page, in the docs and in the source code.

You might want to read the GPL more closely ... it's not quite public domain.
In reply to Howard Miller

Re: Moodle is GPL

by Michael Penney -
Hi Howerd, the difference between GPL and public domain (unlicensed) would mainly be that pd code a company could incorporate into their product and resell the code under a commercial license.

What GPL and Martin's copyright under that license means is that no one can ever incorporate Moodle code into a commercially sold product and products based on Moodle code or that incorporate Moodle code must also be released under the GPL.

One can however run a business on a redhat style model where in person or specialized support, customization, and hosting are paid products (although customized code must also be released under the GPL if it is released, it can't be resold).

In reply to Howard Miller

Re: Moodle is GPL

by A. Chavan -

"My understanding was that if code was GPL'd then it was very much in the public domain."

The GNU General Public License (GPL) is not the same as public domain. This bit about licenses from the GNU website explains the difference:

The simplest way to make a program free is to put it in the public domain (18k characters), uncopyrighted. This allows people to share the program and their improvements, if they are so minded. But it also allows uncooperative people to convert the program into proprietary software (18k characters). They can make changes, many or few, and distribute the result as a proprietary product. People who receive the program in that modified form do not have the freedom that the original author gave them; the middleman has stripped it away.

In the GNU project, our aim is to give all users the freedom to redistribute and change GNU software. If middlemen could strip off the freedom, we might have many users, but those users would not have freedom. So instead of putting GNU software in the public domain, we "copyleft" it. Copyleft says that anyone who redistributes the software, with or without changes, must pass along the freedom to further copy and change it. Copyleft guarantees that every user has freedom.

In reply to A. Chavan

Re: Moodle is GPL

by Howard Miller -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
I've said I'm sorry blush You can leave me along now smile

I am really quite familiar with the GPL - its just that sometimes I talk complete rubbish. Those of you who know me will be well aware of this! I prefer to think of it as an interesting eccentricity!!
In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Moodle is GPL

by Mark Burnet -

I was wondering whether, in this context, it is necessary to site (as a reference to it's source) the originators of your comments.  Those being the gods of modern philosophic thought (i.e Monty Python, et. al).  big grin LOL from MP fan (my son) in the background.

In reply to Mark Burnet

Re: Moodle is GPL

by Daryl Hawes -
I was trying to refrain from jumping up and down over that comment myself. It appears that Bruce is an Australian philosopher after all.
Moodle - you can stick it in a bottle, you can hold it in your hand.
In reply to Daryl Hawes

Re: Moodle is GPL

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
smile  "Well, this is just the sort of blinkered philistine ignorance I've come to expect from you non-creative garbage. You sit there on your loathsome spotty behinds squeezing blackheads, not caring a tinker's cuss for the struggling artist. You excrement! You whining hypocritical toadies with your colour TV sets and your Tony Jacklin golf clubs and your bleeding masonic secret handshakes!! You wouldn't let me join, would you, you blackballing bastards!!! Well I wouldn't become a Freemason if you went down on your stinking knees and begged me!" - Monty Python's Architect sketch

Seriously, I had just assumed everyone here would have recognized the parrot quote! smile

Probably about half of their sketches are still in this skull somewhere ... tongueout
In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Moodle is GPL

by Chardelle Busch -
Picture of Core developers

I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay.

Actually, this is an important issue and thought I would add my take on things.  I think, Tim, a "Pro" version is really a matter of interpretation.  Maybe this will help:

Steps to creating your very own Pro version of Moodle.

1.  Download the latest version for free.

2.  Download any of the add-ons or use any of the hacks/scripts posted on the Moodle forums that you need.

3.  Contract a coder/programmer to make any further changes you require.

4.  Share #3 above on Moodle.org.

5.  Make a contribution to Moodle.org.

6.  If by Pro version you mean a version without the logo Moodle, see Martin's post from above:  "If you wish to remove the logo or re-brand Moodle as part of a commercial enterprise then please contact martin@dougiamas.com to negotiate terms and pricing."

And voila, you have your Pro Version of Moodle.

In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Moodle is GPL

by Floyd Collins -

I bow to the great Martin, that my friend was well done. I thought has he lost it, has the pressure of supplying the educational community finally gotten to him. Then I realize Monty Python's quote strikes again. hehe thanks for the smile bud. big grin

In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Moodle is GPL

by Mike Churchward -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers

Woah (said like Keanu Reeves)! Was that all in you head? I mean, we all have the parrot sketch, but that was remarkable!

(now I'll be reciting Holy Grail scrips in my head all day)..approve

In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Moodle is GPL

by Jay Lloyd Neal -

Martin, I like many others have jumped on the Moodle bandwagon. While Moodle itself may be free, my institution has itself invested tens of thousands of dollars in faculty training and Moodle course development just since version 1.1. I'm glad you hold the copyright to the original source, as I truly respect your leadership in the Moodle development project. But what happens if you are hit by a truck while crossing the street? Who gets the Copyright? Under Opensource, does the copyright owner have the right at any time to take the project out of the Opensource community and make the project for profit enterprise? Would this happen for all versions, or only for future versions?

I'm only asking because I do not fully understand the law, and I would hate for anyone bequeathed the Copyright to sell Moodle to Blackboard Corp. or somesuch down the road. (Anybody else remember that "Web Course in a Box" was swallowed by Blackboard?) Many of the commercial LMS's out there started as University Dissertation or Research Projects funded by Governments for the common good.

Sorry, not trying to be Morbid.

cheers, Jay

In reply to Jay Lloyd Neal

Re: Moodle is GPL

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Copyrights on software can not be retroactively changed.  So, hypothetically, if Moodle 5.7 suddenly changed license then I'm sure all the users would take the last good GPL version (Moodle 5.6) and fork a completely new project from it under the GPL license.

The GPL system is designed to really protect users and programmers, so don't worry.  big grin
In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by Howard Miller -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
Tim,

If you want to take a copy of Moodle and sell it to your nearest University for $25,000 a year (or whatever), then go-ahead. The GPL licence does not stop you. It does not stop anybody else either! See...

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html


One would hope that you made a contribution to the development of the software if you somehow managed to do that though big grin
In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by Bryan Williams -

Tim,

I don't know if this is in evidence yet in Japan, but it is elsewhere in the world. Open source is not business as usual, it demands new thinking and new emotional responses from those attempting to fashion a business model around it (i.e., developers, service providers etc.). I wonder if you have read Eric Raymond's The Cathedral and the Bazaar, written many years ago. If not, it may help you to understand what partially motivates Martin. 

I certainly cannot understand how a man or woman can be faulted for doing something they love, giving it away for free, and more, inviting others to work in a totally transparent way to add value - so more users will benefit. This is Moodle!  It's free for the taking, open to modification, and at Moodle.org there is free advice from avid supporters. What is wrong with this model? 

In the evolution of open source, some developers have been overwhelmed by the acceptance of their creative (and copyright) products. Less technical user's have asked for a level of professional support, just like anything else in the market place, and that has presented a business opportunity. You might be surprised to know that both IBM and HP reported profits of over $2 billion US, on just their Linux sales, in 2003. Is Linus Torvalds mad over this fact?  Hardly, he is delighted to see people earning money on how software should be marketed (i.e., through services).

There probably won't be a "pro" version of Moodle available only to those that can afford it, anytime soon. Moodle is currently as professional as any commercial offering available. Under the GPL, anyone is free to add proprietary extensions to Moodle and sell this customized version for whatever the market will support. For example, if you were to nicely integrate say a content management system like Typo 3 or Mambo (into Moodle), you might have a niche market. 

I look forward to your constructive comments.

Bryan

In reply to Bryan Williams

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by Timothy Takemoto -

The Ministry of silly walks, and talks, is back. 

My post above was made while preparing for a talk comparing Moodle with ATutor. That talk happened last weekend with Don Hinkelman at the Japanese Association of Language Teachers Commputer Aided Language Learning special interest group meeting. My talk was very badly organised, so bad in fact that I did not get to the part where I compared Moodle with ATutor but that was the intention. The long and short of my comparison would have been that ATutor with its high degree of emphasis on standards and accessability may please institutional bureacrats, but functionally is not there yet, it does not have Moodle (=wonderful) community, and the maker intends to release a pro version somewhere down the development line, while also maintaining a GPL version.

As Jay points out, licencing and its future clearly a major point of interest to those that have or want to start using Moodle. As Martin points out if ever there were to be a Moodle Enterprise edition, the Moodle community would still have the Moodles that they have installed, and they would be free to develope that Moodle as a separate "fork," or development project.

But lets say that the main developers, Eloy/Stronk, Ray, etc lost interest. What then? Would it matter? Even if there were a ProMoodle or Moodle Enterprise edition, would there even be a need for a  PostMoodle or FedoraMoodle? We all have Moodle, and we are happy with it.  Software does not rust, and our installations are likely to keep going. I suppose it might be possible that there is some sort of cache problem such that the software as it stands clogs up databases after X years use. But that seems very unlikely. The only *need* that I can think of is the need for someone, or a community to provide ongoing support or "patches" against hackers. Software does not wear out, but nasty people do sometimes work out ways of hacking software. So in that sense software does degrade over time. 

But thanks to Martin's community developement skills, methinks, the Moodle community has reached a level where there would be viable ongoing PostMoodle or Fedora Moodle.

Speaking of which, I have RedHat 9 installed in my server. Recently Red Hat 9 reached its "end of life" and it is no longer supported by the company Red Hat. There will be no "Red Hat 10" to upload to. Red Hat have shifted the emphasis of their inhouse development to a Pro or "Red Hat Enterprise" version (in my opinion). There is still the GPL "fork," now called "Fedora," and the open source community continues to provide support for the later versions of Red Hat.  In a sense then, it could be argued, Red Hat has done what ATutor intends to do (ATutor's leader mentioned the Red Hat approach) and gone for Pro Red Hat leaving the community with the last release of the GPL version - Fedora.

(By the way, many would claim that I am misrepresenting Red Hat and that they have really only changed the name of their software but...leaving that debate aside.)

So? What has the Red Hat experience been like? What is it like when open source turns Pro?  

1) The GPL fork (Fedora or hypothetical "PostMoodle") is quite likely to advance faster than the Pro Version (Red Hat Enterprise, or hypothetical "Moodle Pro"). The leaderless community continues to provide new features, possibly faster than the absent king. Even Red Hat says that Fedora will probably have the new features sooner.

2) The GPL fork may be "bleeding edge." RedHat/Fedora describe Fedora in this way. The implication is that (true or not) Fedora is going to be at the leading edge of technology but that this technology is going to be a bit rough and ready or bloody. The GPL version may require a higher level of user expertise. It may not have the wizard or GUI. Red Hat used to provide a "Windows Updates" clone service where one could just plug in and have one's installation brought "Up2date" (perhaps it is Windows Update that is the clone). Now, one has to install an application (apt or yum) to fetch updates and things don't seem to go as smoothly as they did.

3) As mentioned above, there is the fear that last stable release (the hypothetical "Moodle 5.6" mentioned above or Red Hat 9) is hacked and thus deteriorates. This is happening. Just yesterday a new ftp security flaw was found. Fortunately I am using a different ftp program so I will not have to update m Red Hat 9 but the need will arise. The need to update ones "Moodle 5.6" would probably arise also.

All in all though, from my own personal opinion as a clueless Red Hat user, it was much nicer before the switch. I think that the same would be true of Moodle. Let us rejoice that Moodle still has a leader and that leader does not intend to do a Red Hat.

However, again entirely my own personal opinion, I think that Martin should, for the sake of universal, or at least marital, harmony and multiple school fees, release a pro edition one day. I would prefer that that day is a long way away, but I am sure that the postmoodle would survive. It might even be quite exciting.

I may update to Fedora one of these days. I may also purchase Red Hat Enterprise. It is cheaper than the commercial alternatives. As would any *hypothetical* Pro Moodle be no doubt.

So, we win either way.

Tim

In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: Change in Moodle's license

by David Scotson -

Timothy, you are slightly misinformed. All Red Hat products (enterprise and fedora) are licensed under the GPL.

See http://www.redhat.com/software/rhel/faq/#4

I'm not sure your point remains viable after accounting for that flaw in your analogy.

A more general comment is that the opposite of open source is proprietary. Open Source software can be, and often is, professional and commercial. Both Red Hat and our very own Moodle being perfect examples of how these (commonly thought) opposite concepts can coexist.

Likewise proprietary software can just as easily be amateur and non-commercial so it does professional and/or commercial open source developers a disservice to imply that they are necessarily amateurs and that they are producing code that is not commercially viable

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