Students may review options - proposed change.

Students may review options - proposed change.

Tim Hunt - ން
Number of replies: 14
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We are going to have to change the 'Students may review' part of the quiz settings form. The way it looks at the moment (up to Moodle 1.7+) is shown in the top half of the screenshot below.

There are two reasons this has to change. First, the current form is not at all accessible, and we want to fix a lot of accessibility bugs in 1.8. Second, the way these settings are currently stored in the database is so bizarre that I can't fix the bug I am working on unless I change it, and if I change it, I would like to simplify things. (You may be able to tell from the screenshot, that the bug I am working on is adding a separate setting for Overall Feedback.)

The functional change is that I want to get away from the column of check-boxes, and instead have a single setting for each type of thing. As far as I can see, the only sensible use of the existing settings is to hide a piece of information up to a certain point in time, then reveal it. It makes no sense to reveal the information for some time, then hide it later. Therefore, while the change reduces the available functionality, I think it does not reduce the useful functionality at all, and the benefit is simpler code.

Then there is the change in the user interface, from a grid of checkboxes to dropdowns, which is much better on accessibility grounds. The checkboxes did give you a nice overview of what the settings where. In the new interface, the best I could think of to replace that was the differently indented 1, 2, 3.

In summary:
  1. Does the (very minor) loss of functionality cause real problems for anyone?
  2. Can anyone think of a better user interface.
Attachment review.png
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In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Students may review options - proposed change.

Anthony Borrow - ން
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I might change the wording of "Students may review" to "Students may begin reviewing" to clearly indicate the change in the interface. I agree that once you allow a student to view something at an "earlier" level, it does not make sense to revoke that. The exception may be that you want students to take a quiz and review the material but once the quiz is closed you do not want them to be able to go in and review things. In that case, I would simply recommend hiding the event. As proposed I do not see any problem with the loss in functionality. I think it will help users by simplifying the interface. Thanks for your work on this.
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In reply to Anthony Borrow

Re: Students may review options - proposed change.

Tim Hunt - ން
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Good point. I just used the existing strings for this mockup. I'll think about the wording a bit more carefully before I actually implement it.
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In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Students may review options - proposed change.

Stephen Bourget - ން
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>>It makes no sense to reveal the information for some time, then hide it later. Therefore, while the change reduces the available functionality, I think it does not reduce the useful functionality at all, and the benefit is simpler code.

I don't think this will be an improvement, but will actually reduce the usefulness of the quiz module at least here in my school district. Let me explain how several of our high school teachers (K12) are currently using this feature.

Several of our teachers run the quizzes with the options to see the responses, scores, feedback, and answers immediately after the attempt. This only allows the student to see what he/she got wrong and why. The students are not allowed to view the questions or answers at any time afterwards because the teachers allow the students to re-take the quizzes before the end of the marking period. (These grades can be averaged, just use the highest grade.) Some of our teachers prefer to proctor the re-takes (most of our teachers who are using moodle quizzes in this fashion teach their courses in computer labs).

These quizzes are set to have a time delay between attempts. (This prevents the student from just memorizing the questions and answers before retaking the quiz)

My concern is that by changing the behavior of these options it would not allow our teachers to use the quiz module in this fashion. Our teachers would only be able to give the student ONLY 1 attempt and then show them the answers, or not allow the student to review their quiz or their answers before re-taking the quiz. See the attached screenshot for the how our quizzes are normally configured
Attachment quizsettings.png
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In reply to Stephen Bourget

Re: Students may review options - proposed change.

Tim Hunt - ން
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OK, so that is one fairly valid use case that I am breaking if I go ahead.

I think I am going to go ahead anyway.

A better solution to what your teachers are trying to do is to make a few variants (just two or three is enough) of each question, and build the quiz to pick one question at random from each set of variants. The the students will get similar but different questions on each attempt, which is a better test of whether they have learned from the mistakes they made the first time around. It also means that different students will see different sets of questions, which reduces the potential for copying.

It is slightly more work to set up, but tends not to be too difficult in maths/science subjects where it is easy to make sets of similar questions. Once you have build up a good set of questions, with random variants, you can safely used exactly the same quiz from year to year.
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In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Students may review options - proposed change.

Anthony Borrow - ން
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Tim - This does appear to be a loss of functionality which you may want to check with MD about (if you have not done so already) before proceeding. I like the idea of simplifying the interface and realize that changing this will help you along in other areas but if a step must be taken back to move forward I would want the goal to be that of re-gaining the lost functionality. Conceptually, I am wondering if modeling the linux file permissions system would be helpful - using a short integer to store the result. In other words, one number indicates how to handle a variety of situations. In other words 3 blanks = 0, 3 checks = 7, and the various combinations therein. In that way you could still do a drop down box. I'm not sure if that might help in dealing with the coding. Peace - Anthony
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In reply to Anthony Borrow

Re: Students may review options - proposed change.

Tim Hunt - ން
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I still have the feeling that Moodle is not really offering what Stephen's teachers want, and that what they are doing now is subverting an existing obscure feature to get close to what they want.

Perhaps what they are really after is a new review option: 'After all attempts are finished'. If I make my proposed code change it would be easy to add that.

It is currently using an integer bit field to store all these permissions. That is the problem. The original designers left space for 3 rows of 6 options, which at the time gave some room for further expansion. Now they are all full, and I need to add a 7th (yes, I know, the screenshot shows 5 going up to 6, but one is used behind the scenes). I could do a minimal change, but it would be a pain in the neck, and does not solve the problem for the future, and the future is quite soon because we are planning to add some more 'rows' to these settings next year.

Martin D always hates to remove any existing functionality, so I know what his answer will be, but that is not always the right decision. The best example of removing functionality is the Firefox web browser. In the old days there was Mozilla, which had millions of features and everything including the kitchen sink, and only a few geeks used it. Then they removed almost all the features, and most of the options, choosing sensible defaults in their place, and called it Firefox, and the rest is history. (Oh and I remember the Mozilla forums at the time. There was much ranting then, and many converts now.) I sometimes wish we could do the same with the quiz. I need to talk to MD anyway, so I will raise this with him then.

I am still hoping to be able to implement this tomorrow. It's not that I don't care what you think. It is that I have listened (well, read) but remain unconvinced by the sole objection. In open source communities you have a form a government where the people who do the work have the power. There are many worse.
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In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Students may review options - proposed change.

Stephen Bourget - ން
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Tim,

I thought about your suggestion, and althought I would prefer not to see the loss of the functionality as it is currently implemented, can see your point. Can I offer a compromise solution.

What if you were to set up 2 seperate pull down menus, one that specifies when the feature becomes available and the second when the feature becomes unavailable. Something to the effect of responses will be available from Immediately after the quiz until the quiz closes. This would still provide the functionality that we use but should also allow for the flexability and expandibility that you describe needing in your post above.

Hopefully the attached screenshot will help explain the idea
Attachment Picture-1.png
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In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Students may review options - proposed change.

Anthony Borrow - ން
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Tim - As a member of a religious order, I am familiar non-democratic forms of governance. I trust your judgment (and Martin's) since you are intimately more familiar with the code than I am. It sounds like you are really advocating to take a step back, try  a different approach and then work toward restoring and enhancing functionality as time allows.  I accept that there may be some growing pains in the process and at times even inconveniences. Keep up the great work of improving the quiz module. It is an essential component of how I use Moodle in my classroom. Peace - Anthony
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In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Students may review options - proposed change.

Jean-Michel Védrine - ން
Tim,
I understand your concerns but :
  • There was quite alot of discussions in this forum before Gustav adopted this interface (I must admit I love it even if I don't use all combinations) so maybe you should search these threads and read them before proceeding
  • You can bet you will have to deal with some "bugs reports" in the tracker and some complaints in that forum after you make this change ...
Happy Christmas to you all

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In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Students may review options - proposed change.

steven zeichner - ން

As one of the teachers who works with Stephen, and who is relying more and more on Moodle, there are some additional considerations in retaining the current system for the Student Review options.  I tend to allow students to review feedback and responses immediately after the attempt.  I also allow a 24 or 48-hour delay between attempts and change the review options before the second attempt.  Review options are changed again so students may review the quizzes before the mid-term and final exam.

The suggestion of creating varients of similar questions is good, however, many of the students we see are on IEP's.  Many have specific requirements as to how information is presented and reviewed and we need to be careful when creating questions that we are accommodating each students needs.

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In reply to steven zeichner

Re: Students may review options - proposed change.

Joseph Rézeau - ން
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Steven > many of the students we see are on IEP's

May I ask what this IEP stands for?thoughtful

  • Isoelectric Point
  • Individual(ized) Education Plan
  • Institut d'Etudes Politiques (French, Sciences Po Paris)
  • Intensive English Program
  • Institut für Europäische Politik
  • Interagency Ecological Program

etc.?

Joseph

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In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: Students may review options - proposed change.

steven zeichner - ން
IEP - Individualized Education Plan.  We often run into situations where we need to create tests and quizzes that very closely follow the notes, worksheets, and other materials given to students due to students' learning disabilities.  In order to comply with all of the Federal requirements in meeting students' needs, we often review for a quiz/test by looking at the questions that will be on the test. 
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In reply to Stephen Bourget

Re: Students may review options - proposed change.

Rob Monk - ން
I love the time delay option. I give my students multiple attempts but spread them out by 48 hours so they actually do more revision. You are not taking that away are you?
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