Moodle Trademark Email??

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martin Dougiamas -
Number of replies: 25
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Hi D.I.,

In the U.S. at the moment we're trying an approach of a few larger companies rather than lots and lots of little ones, primarily to reduce central administration (you probably don't realise how much time it takes to manage royalties and partners, it's basically a full-time job already) but also to simplify things for end-users.

This may change in future if it's not working, but that's what we're trying now (as I think I probably said to you in Savannah). All the current Moodle Partner companies there in the US (Remote Learner, Classroom Revolution and Moodlerooms) are growing rapidly. I would personally much rather have three big, capable, experienced 24-hour companies than 100 one-man operators, and I know most people seeking professional Moodle Services would too.

If you want to do business under a Moodle brand, then joining up with one of the existing partners (as you did and others are doing) is a good approach and what I'd recommend to anyone else there. That *IS* "the way for others to be part of the professional team". Coordination then happens efficiently inside those companies and I don't have to be involved. wink

However if you want to go it alone with your own business then you're free to do this, of course, just as long as you mind the trademarks.

Moodle promotion etc is a separate issue. I'm sure most of us do a lot of that whether or not money is involved.
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In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Steve Hyndman -

However if you want to go it alone with your own business then you're free to do this, of course, just as long as you mind the trademarks.

If anyone has any suggestions on how DI, or anyone else for that matter, can actually do that, with the sweeping way this trademark is being enforced, I would be interested in hearing suggestions. 

I don't want to use DI as an example, so let's take my business as an example (kentuckyclassroom.com). Does anyone have a suggestion of what I could put on that site (while minding the trademark) to let people know that I provide moodle hosting and services?

Steve

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In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Robert Garza -

Steve and DI, I'll take a stab at this.

First, my apologies to everyone before I speak.  My 15 years of software-gun-for-hire has made me unique in the ways I view software development, software solutions and the software business in general.  In fact recently, I was called 'grim' and 'fiber-less' by other Moodle members but I took no offense and I have great respect for their opinions.  We all have different perspectives and access to solve problems.  So I am sure I will be labeled still further.  I am not idealistic or theoretical but I do have a passion for solving people's problems through software.

After many years of being a hired gun I decided to open my own shop.  Since my wife is an Instructional Designer I decided to compliment her by looking at the educational arena. Since open source did not have very many restrictions I decide that would be a good place to start.  I had already done one Moodle project before and it was interesting. Plus market competition was very limited (I’m in San Antonio, TX).  The only 2 Moodle Partners then had pior established businesses and had Moodle as one of their many services.  Although it seemed, based on their news sections, that they were not doing that much Moodle business. That still seems true even now.  So I started Chimera Software LLC providing educational open-source services.

Initially my web site (http://www.chimerasoftware.com) was more Moodle-centric.  During the past day I have changed it to more reflect my lack of Moodle Partner status.  I now use Moodle as an example of my work and services.  I may still be in violation but I will change the site as requested.  Right now, I have a University client and 2 corporate clients on the horizon (hope they come through).  I never told them I was a Moodle Partner just told them the virtues of the product...in most cases Moodle sells itself.  So check out my website.  Now, I have not asked permission from Martin or anyone at Moodle because at this time I had no desire to become a Moodle partner. Actually I do not have the time to pursue it…maybe in the future.  Plus I figure, I am only doing Moodle a favor but listing it on my website.  I guess I could have chosen another open-source product.  But, I will submit a letter of permission to the Moodle Helpdesk in the near future.

So my business is actually marketing myself, my capabilities and my company and not Moodle. I have joined the Texas Computer Education Association (TCEA) and will be presenting a presentation on Moodle and it virtues at their next conference in Feb 2007.  Last year they had 8,000 attendees so it looks promising.  I have also joined the local chapter of the American Society of Training and Development (ASTD) and have found some interested clients there.  I also attended the “Innovations in Learning” conference support by the University of Texas TeleCampus and talked to a few people about Moodle, once again there was some interest there.

In the end, Moodle is a product that I support and will suggest to as many people as I possibly can.  It is up the customer to decide if my solution is valid and if I am capable of solving their problem.  I make sure that people know that I am not a Moodle Partner and actually no one cares if I am or not.  Their concern is if I can solve their problems and not if I solved it using ATutor or Dokeos or Moodle….or even Blackboard (but I wouldn't do that).

As for Moodle Partnership in the U.S., the problem is that each state has a different educational landscape, different rules and different politics.  I appreciate the 3 Moodle Partners in the U.S. but they don’t offer me any insight to the Texas educational system at any level (K6, K9, K12, K16, High School or University). In fact in Texas, it seems that only the bleeding-edge people in educational arena and educators that have literally no budget have even heard of Moodle.  (But there are a few Moodlers and they are pretty darn good.)   Even then, the politics of system administrators usually trump all good intentions.  It is a tough but I am making some headway because there is interest in Moodle in Texas and more than you would think.

Lastly, here is something else that I have not asked for Moodle’s permission: to start a Moodle Users Group.  Here in Texas, we are spread far apart and trying to make more local Moodle connections would be very comforting.  I have started a beta version of the concept at www.TexasMoodle.org.  It is done in Drupal but with Moodle 1.6 out, it may be a better option. The goals of the user group are: (1)Promoting the use of Moodle in Texas, (2)Providing more local and regional hands-on support to Moodle Users of all levels, (3)Planning and having a Texas MoodleMoot and (4)Supporting Moodle.org. The last one would be donating any left over money from the Moot to Moodle.org.

In talking to other Texas Moodlers, they all think it is a great idea and would help them convince their employers or institutions to use Moodle.  Some of them have said that a Moodle Partner would not be able to help them unless they were on an approved vendor list and in some cases you have to be a Texas-based operation.  If a Moodle user group is something that is not permitted then I will take down the site.  But as soon as I am ready to move from beta to production I will email the helpdesk for permission. That way they see the full impact of the idea and not some beta version of a concept.  Right now, I don’t think the site is fully on the right track but I still think it is a great idea.

I guess the real questions are:

Is Moodle ready to have local or regional user groups?
Would a user group help or hurt Moodle?

I’ll leave those questions up for another discussion.

Martin, I will accept any judgments you have of anything I have done on the Internet.  Please understand that myself and others (like Steve, DI) only have the best of intentions and I think you believe that already.  I do understand and RESPECT your position and plans for the US market and your reasons.  The only I could ask for, if possible, is to make those plans known (you may have and I missed them) so that I and others do not accidentally interfere and you may find that we are even willing to help.

So hopefully I have minded the trademarks, if I haven’t then tell me what I need to change.

Steve and DI, my suggestion is this - focus your business on YOU and your capabilities and not products.  I’m sure your current customers have chosen you and you future customers will choose you because of YOU and your talents and not because you support one product or another.

But that is my 2 cents.

Rob

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In reply to Robert Garza

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Steve Hyndman -

Steve and DI, my suggestion is this - focus your business on YOU and your capabilities and not products.  I’m sure your current customers have chosen you and you future customers will choose you because of YOU and your talents and not because you support one product or another.

Great post Rob and I agree 100% about building a business around YOU and not the products. The ironic thing is that my business hasn't suffered one bit as a result of the cease-and-desist notice. I have all the business I can handle and have had to turn down several opportunities to provide Moodle services since the cease-and-desist notice. All this has really done is to cause me to be a lot less enthusiastic about spreading the word about Moodle.

In fact, over the past couple of years, I have been teaching Moodle as part of my graduate education technology classes....around 100 students per term, times 3 terms per year, equals over 600 Kentucky teachers/administrators who have learned Moodle in my classes. Since receiving the cease-and-desist notice, I have spent the last few weeks completely writing Moodle out of my lessons. I will no longer cover it in my classes. Over the past couple of years, I have done Moodle presentations at 4 international conferences (and several State and local conferences/workshops)....my last one was at the UK MoodleMoot a couple of weeks ago. That was my last Moodle presentation at a conference...I will do no more. I published two papers on using Frontpage to create ePortfolios and was in the process of writing one about an easier way to build ePortfolios using Moodle...I've scrapped that paper now and will not submit it for publication.

Why am I doing this?....it's real simple. Before the cease-and-desist notice, I really did feel like I was a valuable part of the "Moodle Community" and I was motivated to spread the word far and wide. After receiving the cease-and-desist notice, I realized that I was really just a "sales person" and "free labor" for Moodle.com...and that doesn't work for me. Again, I have no ill-will for any of the Moodle Partners. I think they provide a valuable service and I hope their businesses are very successful, but I'm not going to be a salesman for a market that I am not allowed to participate in.

Again, that's just me...I realize I'm more stubborn that most smile

Steve

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In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Darren Cooper -

Steve,

I really do think that is a shame, I hope you reconsider that decision, it would be a real shame. I think a product such as Moodle need people like yourself.

I still think you are:
Quote: a valuable part of the "Moodle Community"
As this dialogue has shown, you have addressed issues that touch lots of us. I have a learnt a lot by going through this thread and it has helped me to define my roadmap and the way forwards. So I would like to thank you and all the others that have helped clarify this issue.

But I really do think turning you back on Moodle because of this issue is a real shame your first post back in 2004 and the many since have helped me and no doubt many others too, for which I am very grateful. I appreciate your input, partner or not, moodle logo or not. I "think" I understand both sides of the issue but I feel it's time to put a lid on it and get back to doing what we all normaly do, Moodle. If you do leave good luck and thanks but I hope you'll stick around.

Yes I'm fairly new here and have possibly overlooked something, I've also gone through differences with people in this community and am happy to say we have managed to find a solution that we either agree on or agree to disagree on and then get on with things. I have learned a lot in the process of these debates. I admit, issues that were not as significant as this issue but still issues and differences. Once again, I think your leaving would be a real loss to the Moodle community. Please reconsider carefully before you proceed with your Quote "stubborn" decision.

Regards
Darren

 

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In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martín Langhoff -
Steve, have you considered that you can't really use the Apache, PHP or Linux trademarks without explicit permission?
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In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by D.I. von Briesen -
Hey, Steve- stop being stubborn.

I've been married for 15 years, and have 5 kids. I don't like all of them all of the time, but I ALWAYS love 'em! Don't let something like this that you disagree with change your life so much. If I can't appeal to you on heart grounds (i.e. let your heart overpower your id) then I'll give you a business argument:

If you let things bug you like this, where you incline away from your natural course and actions, and give energy and mind to things that are not useful, you are letting those things have "free rent on your brain".

You really wanna give free rent?

Nah... You can love moodle and the community and support it - but dislike the letter. But don't give the letter free mental real estate. thoughtful

Cheers!

d.i.
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In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
I'm seriously glad your business is going well for you, that's great!

As I've said repeatedly for weeks to you, none of this Trademark stuff is supposed to prevent people running their business using Moodle. Yet you still post FUD like this when I know you know better.

If only you'd just replied to the letter when you'd got it to discuss it with me, instead of immediately posting misleading and incorrect information all over the internet. I even said hi to you in person at the UK Moot but you ignored me.

As a result I do feel rather like you are not interested in resolving this issue but actually prefer to be engaged in smearing Moodle.
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In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by N Hansen -
Steve-I can say one thing for sure-even if you weren't advertising them-I certainly wouldn't come to you if I needed Moodle services. With your bitter attitude about Martin's choice in how he runs his business, I wouldn't trust you one bit to run a Moodle installation and not try and sabotage my site just to turn me against Moodle too. And certainly if I needed support, I would now know you don't have a good relationship with the Moodle developers or the people in these forums now that you could harness to my business's advantage.

To me it is completely clear that Martin has chosen not to monopolize the market but to simply go after one segment of it. If he had chosen to monopolize the market he would have gone after you and every other non-Moodle partner and demanded a 10% royalty, but he didn't, he just said stop using my trademark to run your business.

I can tell you that I have never used a Moodle partner myself, simply because the Moodle partners all offer basically more or less the same services for the same (high-for me) prices. But I probably am not alone and there are times when Moodle users like me could benefit from non-partner services that diverge from the partner model.

I think you have burned your bridges now. Good luck on staying afloat in the river.
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In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Steve Hyndman -

I'll say one thing for you...you are presistent in your "spin". The FUD you said I posted....tell me....what's FUD about it?

You continue to say that people can run a business "using Moodle". That has never been at issue. The issue is....people are prevented by your trademark enforcement from running a business supporting, hosting, etc., Moodle. You posted a link to my site saying I know better...tell me....where does it say on that site that I host or support Moodle? Are you telling me now that I can say Moodle on my site...isn't that what got us here in the first place? That's the issue...you can try to spin it and muddy the waters all you want, but you and I both know the issue.

Steve

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In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Darren Cooper -

Steve,
let's put a lid on this it really is not going anywhere other than round in downwards circles quite rapidly. There are always two sides to the arguement and I think we have heard enough of both to decide for ourselves what has lead to this unfortunate misunderstanding and how to prevent it in the future.

Thanks for pointing out those other sites misusing the trademerks without persimission or maybe they do have permission I'm sure someone at the Moodle HQ either knows about this or will follow that up.

Steve as you can see, I am not the only one who things this is the right place for you to be as part of this community. I still think it's a shame that such a trivial (in my eyes) issue has started this rather emotional landslide.
But I ask you to reconsider you stand, review you motives and get back to doing what you do best, which is obviously not what is happening here.

For the record, I have nothing to do with you nor with Moodle other than I admire both. These are observations from a very neutral observer who does not like what he is seeing.

Darren

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In reply to Darren Cooper

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Steve Hyndman -

Daren,

You're right, this is going around in circles...thanks for the post. This is my last post in this thread.

I'll continue to use Moodle for my own purposes (although I'll no longer teach or advocate it to others like I have in the past) and I'll continue to "pay" for my personal use by contributing and helping others here in the forums when I can.

Signing off of this thread.....

Steve

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In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Frances Bell -
I agree that this thread has probably outlived its usefulness (but glad that these issues were raised).  I'd just like to record my appreciation of Steve's contributions to moodle.org forums and his presentation at UK Moodlemoot 2005. I met him socially there and enjoyed the experience.
Unfortunately, he won't be picking up this message as he is no longer enrolled.  I, for one, am very sorry that he is no longer on this course/forum.
It's quite a challenge for this community to sustain critical debate about the direction Moodle takes. Let's keep working at it.
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In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Paul Nijbakker -

I also met Steve here on moodle.org and at the UK MoodleMoot 2005. He was an amiable guy. I am very sorry that the miscommunication that lies at the bottom of this whole issue caused him to become disappointed/vengeful. The way I understand it, Steve thought that as a prominent champion of Moodle and helpful member of the community he was entitled to special consideration and when he received the e-mail at the top of the thread he felt put in a place that he did not like. I understand, but do not condone his reaction. I hope that as a result of this regrettable affair, there will be clearer/more detailed instructions about the use of the Moodle trademark, so that we can avoid similar unpleasantness in the future.

Rgrds,
Paul.

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In reply to Paul Nijbakker

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by N Hansen -
True Paul, but note that the letter was not from Martin himself. Obviously Martin had one of his employees, who may not even have been aware of who Steve was, search for patent violators and send a form letter to them. That is perfectly normal. It's the best use of staff time rather than have Martin do it. If I had been in Steve's position, the fact that the letter wasn't signed by Martin would have been a big clue to me that Martin may not have been even aware that the letter had been sent to Martin. I agree that if he had emailed Martin directly to ask for a clarification, things might have turned out differently. But he chose his position early on by publicly getting angry at Martin for this and it seems he dug in and stayed with it.
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In reply to N Hansen

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Tony Hursh -
We need to be careful to distinguish trademarks, copyrights, and patents. They're different things.

Trademark: you can't take GeneriCola, put it in a container labeled Coca Cola, and sell it.

Copyright: you can't take a Coca Cola commercial, hire a voice actor to overdub all mentions of Coca Cola with GeneriCola, then broadcast it, or take a Coca Cola magazine ad, photoshop in the GeneriCola logo, and print it.

Patent: The Coca Cola company claims to have invented the whole idea of cola, and tries to stop the makers of GeneriCola from producing cola drinks of any kind regardless of labeling (this one isn't actually true, of course).

Trademarks are supposed to protect consumers by assuring them that they're getting the genuine article, and protect companies from having their reputations damaged by others passing off substandard goods under the real company's name, copyrights are supposed to protect writers, artists, and musicians from having their creative works used without authorization, and patents are supposed to encourage inventors by granting them a monopoly on an entire field for a limited time. In practice, things don't always work out according to plan, but they're still different things with different intentions (and different rules for enforcement).

I'm not a lawyer, and don't even play one on the net, but that's my (probably naive) understanding of how it works.

Addendum: Adobe would probably be upset by my use of "photoshop" as a verb above, as that's one way to lose a trademark. smile Photoshop is a registered trademark of Adobe Systems, Inc., Coca Cola is a registered trademark of The Coca Cola Company, and I don't think GeneriCola actually exists, but I apologize to them if it does. smile smile smile
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In reply to Tony Hursh

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Frances Bell -
Thanks Tony,
That is really helpful for comparisons with commercial products and companies but how does it work for OSS?
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In reply to Frances Bell

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Michael Blake -
As the sender of the original email, let me clarify the position Moodle takes on this issue.

The word Moodle can be freely used in most contexts with one exception: it must not be used in promoting or selling Moodle commercial services.  Commercial services include activities such as Moodle hosting, consulting, support etc.  Generally only Moodle Partners are permitted to use the trademark to sell commercial services.

We don't have any problem with people using the word/trademark/logo in non-commercial contexts.

Simply stated, the restriction applies only if you are providing Moodle Services
AND charging fees for these services.
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In reply to Michael Blake

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Marc Grober -
As I tried to work my way through this discussion (for a number of reasons, including what I might wish to do in future with Moodle) I came across this web site: http://teachers4schools.com/moodle/
These folks use a concatenated logo:
and sell commercial Moodle services (indeed, Chick hawked the same in the Moodle forums).
So can I do the same thing (with or without asking permission, with or without becoming a Moodle Partner)?
Did these folks receive a trademark letter and if so with what result and if not, why not?
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In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Steve, I'll spell this out for you one more time then I won't be engaging in this very long disussion any further as it's going nowhere, so please read this carefully and maybe have a sleep on it.

Yes, I'm being completely consistent about this and have been for some years (see the Moodle license).

You are not being consistent. Please contrast the following:

  1. You say on your blog "Can anyone suggest ways to build a business when you are prohibited from letting people know exactly what it is you do?"
  2. The answer is and always has been "Set up your business site so it doesn't use the Moodle trademark in an unapproved way". I know you know this because that's exactly what you (eventually) did to your site. It still explains what you do quite clearly.


So why are you *still* posting all over the internet about this issue? As you said above, following the trademark guidelines hasn't hurt your business at all, so what's your motivation?

I'll let the reader draw their own conclusion and retire from this discussion. I have Moodle 1.7 to get finished so that you can offer it to your hosting customers.
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In reply to Robert Garza

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Don Schwartz -
"Lastly, here is something else that I have not asked for Moodle’s permission: to start a Moodle Users Group.  Here in Texas, we are spread far apart and trying to make more local Moodle connections would be very comforting.  I have started a beta version of the concept at www.TexasMoodle.org.  It is done in Drupal but with Moodle 1.6 out, it may be a better option. The goals of the user group are: (1)Promoting the use of Moodle in Texas, (2)Providing more local and regional hands-on support to Moodle Users of all levels, (3)Planning and having a Texas MoodleMoot and (4)Supporting Moodle.org. The last one would be donating any left over money from the Moot to Moodle.org. "
 
Rob, I asked Martin the exact same thing at the NE Moot and he was wildly in favor of user groups.  A few of us in New England plan on firing one up for the fall.  In speaking with Martin I did ask about making this part of Moodle.org but the farther I get from the Moot the more I think it makes sense for the group to be disconnected from Moodle itself.  Let's from our regionals and have a national meeting in 2007.  ds
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In reply to Don Schwartz

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Robert Garza -

Don,

I figured there had to be someone else thinking of the idea.  But my concern and I am sure it is yours too - is fragmenting the current Moodle group.  I believe in the idea that "the more heads then the better the ideas" but I also know that every country, region, state, province and city has there own unique educational problems.

The idea of the Moodle group as a whole and at the same time separated into different user groups will be a delicate balance.   I think there needs to be a structure to the groups as a whole so that we all support each other and are able to interlink each other.  The prudent choice is to allow the Core Moodle Team to formulate a structure and to create a Moodle Users Group charter template with some basic rules.

There probably should be several things that would be common to all Moodle User Groups - logo concepts, support of Moodle.org, group naming (for instance I used TexasMoodle as the URL and I call the site TexMUG - those were off the top of my head) and other things so that is would be easy to find the local or regional group.  But like I said I am still working on a concept (what I have up took about 2 hours) because I never want any user group member to ever lose sight or connection to Moodle.org.

The other idea I had for a user group was to have a repository of courses or teaching objects that would be a teacher's exchange of Moodle materials.  It would give new Moodlers a jump start in building their courses, especially if they are in the same educational arena.  Another is that we would have regional and national awards for the best courses created in Moodle but that is far down the road.

So right now I will still continue, as my work and family allow me, to develop a possible concept.  And then submit the idea to the Moodle Help Desk.

If you are developing a concept too please forward me the address.

Lastly...a national meeting would be very cool.  I'll let the US Moodle Partners tackle that one.

Rob

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In reply to Robert Garza

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by A. T. Wyatt -
I would like to suggest that, particularly with regard to Texas, that we consider contacting TCEA and working together on this.  Since I know a board member very well, I would be happy to start a conversation.  Having a large group such as TCEA as a partner could be very helpful with regard to starting a repository of teacher courses, or awards, etc.

What do you think?

atw
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In reply to A. T. Wyatt

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Robert Garza -

Hey A.T.,

TCEA is exactly where all of this should start.  I was talking to another person, I believe his name is Ken Task, and he had written a charter/bylaws document for an Open Source SIG in TCEA.  He also has a web sight supporting open-source in Texas education (http://www.sosoftexas.org).  Check out the link to the SOS Portal.

Hope to see you at TCEA 2007.  I already have a booth for my little company which will be about 50 feet behind Apple Inc.  Considering the latest events, I should have picked the booth across the aisle from Blackboard and hired someone to taunt them.  It is not Moodle's style but it would be a bit fun.

I still might be presenting at TCEA, I was just informed that there was a mix up in one of the lists and that they do not have a place or time slot for me.  They are working on setting up a thin-client lab and asked if I could present there.  So it looks like I am almost there and hopefully I can introduce more people to Moodle.

If I knew for sure that we could have enough Moodlers show up to TCEA 2007 then we might be able to piggyback a Moot at the same time. But time is growing short and that might be a tremendous undertaking.

Rob

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In reply to Don Schwartz

Re: Moodle Trademark Email??

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Note this is not related to this discussion about trademarks because a user group is not the sort of commercial service as you find on moodle.com.

It's more an extension of what you see here on moodle.org and the more of that the merrier!

No need to ask permission for such stuff!
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