My request to the developers
The fact that Moodle calculates and displays the time in the user's time zone _without specifying the time zone_ creates lot of confusion in a global audience. The simple reason is that the global user understands a time without a time zone as UTC!
My request: Please print the time zone next to the time, always. So don't just say "2 June 2020, 17:30", say "2 June 2020, 17:30 IST" for example.
Request to developers: Please display clock time always with its time zone
autor Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Počet odpovědí: 19
Visvanath,
I second that request; that's a great suggestion. It would be very helpful to see that on the screen to help troubleshoot time related problems.
I see this in sites where the timezone is forced for all users to one time zone. Students who live in other time zones constantly forget that the times they see, such as due times for quizzes and assignments, are not the same time as their local time, but are in another time zone. So, they have to calculate the time difference themselves. Having a reminder for this on screen would be very helpful.
Randy
I second that request; that's a great suggestion. It would be very helpful to see that on the screen to help troubleshoot time related problems.
I see this in sites where the timezone is forced for all users to one time zone. Students who live in other time zones constantly forget that the times they see, such as due times for quizzes and assignments, are not the same time as their local time, but are in another time zone. So, they have to calculate the time difference themselves. Having a reminder for this on screen would be very helpful.
Randy
V odpovědi na Randy Thornton
Re: Request to developers: Please display clock time always with its time zone
autor Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Hi Randy
I'm relieved to know that I am not the only person who regularly crash on to this issue working with a global community. Even just from friend to friend I write '13 hours IST' so that he knows I mean his local time, not my local time which is CEST. If somebody is in an unfamiliar time zone, we would talk in UTC, e.g. '11 hour UTC'.
In Moodle the deadlines are always displayed in the user's time zone, silently assuming that the user knows it. This has caused many confusions. The solution is simple: Always print the time zone next to a clock time!
N.B. I changed the subject line to match the new topic.
I'm relieved to know that I am not the only person who regularly crash on to this issue working with a global community. Even just from friend to friend I write '13 hours IST' so that he knows I mean his local time, not my local time which is CEST. If somebody is in an unfamiliar time zone, we would talk in UTC, e.g. '11 hour UTC'.
In Moodle the deadlines are always displayed in the user's time zone, silently assuming that the user knows it. This has caused many confusions. The solution is simple: Always print the time zone next to a clock time!
N.B. I changed the subject line to match the new topic.
V odpovědi na Visvanath Ratnaweera
Re: Request to developers: Please display clock time always with its time zone
autor Séverin Terrier -
Hi,
I'm perhaps / certainly not representative of all people, but i feel Moodle way to work with time simple and useful : time is displayed as normal for you. You (only) need to have defined correctly your timezone once. You just have to change it if you move to other ways, like you have to do with a clock.
Being someone who (nearly) never go out of France, i'm really not used to timezones. And displaying CEST, UTC (or something else) will always cause me trouble, because i don't know what it means! And i wont know if time is good for me...
Séverin
I'm perhaps / certainly not representative of all people, but i feel Moodle way to work with time simple and useful : time is displayed as normal for you. You (only) need to have defined correctly your timezone once. You just have to change it if you move to other ways, like you have to do with a clock.
Being someone who (nearly) never go out of France, i'm really not used to timezones. And displaying CEST, UTC (or something else) will always cause me trouble, because i don't know what it means! And i wont know if time is good for me...
Séverin
V odpovědi na Séverin Terrier
Re: Request to developers: Please display clock time always with its time zone
autor Séverin Terrier -
So, in short, i think that:
- you should not indicate CEST, UTC... if time is adapted to you, like Moodle does
- it's useful to display CEST, UTC... only when there's a unique time shown worldwide per server/service. In this case, ideally provide a link/tool to easilly find corresponding time for people, like this one
V odpovědi na Séverin Terrier
Re: Request to developers: Please display clock time always with its time zone
autor Mary Cooch -
I'm not sure there is an easy answer to this, other than making it clear to everyone on a Moodle site that they must specify their own timezone. We have tried various ways on the Learn Moodle MOOC (a good example of a place for beginners often with not much understanding of timezones) The site timeanddate.com/ is a good one to include when you have to state a time. I agree that in fact specifying at time such as UTC or CET (or CEST which I just learned) can cause confusion. For example, I never know (living in the UK) whether I am in UTC or UTC plus one and anyway I always thought it was GMT. On a personal (not a Moodle) level I tend to say "London time" when referring to my own timezone because it is then easier for people to search for time in London rather than figure out UTC or whatever.
V odpovědi na Mary Cooch
Re: Request to developers: Please display clock time always with its time zone
autor Randy Thornton -
Mary,
And you have Summer Time too
So, for something like a quiz due time, what if it showed the user something like:
"This quiz will close on Monday, 6 July 2020, 1:00 PM your time."
where all you do is add the "your time" to the end of the time. This would be a simple change in the code.
It would take only a little more work for something like:
"This quiz will close on Monday, 6 July 2020, 1:00 PM site time which is Monday, 6 July 2020, 3:00 PM your time"
but not sure that would be that much clearer.
It would take some substantial changes to show the original time the teacher had in mind, since it would mean you would need to save the original time zone of the teacher: So if a teacher says "it is due at 2:00 PM." and the teacher time is different from the site time, then you would have to save that in the database somewhere to show it back to the student later, "The teacher set this due at 2:00 PM their time which is 3:00 PM your time."
And you have Summer Time too
So, for something like a quiz due time, what if it showed the user something like:
"This quiz will close on Monday, 6 July 2020, 1:00 PM your time."
where all you do is add the "your time" to the end of the time. This would be a simple change in the code.
It would take only a little more work for something like:
"This quiz will close on Monday, 6 July 2020, 1:00 PM site time which is Monday, 6 July 2020, 3:00 PM your time"
but not sure that would be that much clearer.
It would take some substantial changes to show the original time the teacher had in mind, since it would mean you would need to save the original time zone of the teacher: So if a teacher says "it is due at 2:00 PM." and the teacher time is different from the site time, then you would have to save that in the database somewhere to show it back to the student later, "The teacher set this due at 2:00 PM their time which is 3:00 PM your time."
V odpovědi na Mary Cooch
Re: Request to developers: Please display clock time always with its time zone
autor koen roggemans -
You could detect the timezone of the user in the browser (see https://stackoverflow.com/questions/6939685/get-client-time-zone-from-browser) using
const tz = Intl.DateTimeFormat().resolvedOptions().timeZone;
console.log(tz)
Compare the result with the users setting and throw a warning that the user is in a different timezone and times could be wrong.
V odpovědi na koen roggemans
Re: Request to developers: Please display clock time always with its time zone
autor Séverin Terrier -
I think this would really be a useful improvment!
Because once people have the good timezone defined, every date/time is well shown and self comprehensible.
The same maner, Moodle should include a browser check, to inform user if the browser used is too old, and could generate problems!
Because once people have the good timezone defined, every date/time is well shown and self comprehensible.
The same maner, Moodle should include a browser check, to inform user if the browser used is too old, and could generate problems!
Hi Severin
That would be great, if technically feasible. I am not in touch with the technologies involved, but noticed that certain parts of Moodle are more sensitive than the rest. A quiz with JavaScript security is one. BBB for example works with Safari for participants but not for presenters, etc.
Whatever, I allowed myself to change the subject line, in case this thread develops away from the parent Request to developers: Please display clock time always with its time zone.
That would be great, if technically feasible. I am not in touch with the technologies involved, but noticed that certain parts of Moodle are more sensitive than the rest. A quiz with JavaScript security is one. BBB for example works with Safari for participants but not for presenters, etc.
Whatever, I allowed myself to change the subject line, in case this thread develops away from the parent Request to developers: Please display clock time always with its time zone.
Hi Visvanath,
Thanks for changing subject.
So, i've created MDL-69242 for that
If you find it useful, don't hesitate to vote for it, and add your comments.
Hope it will then find someone to take care of this...
Séverin
Thanks for changing subject.
So, i've created MDL-69242 for that
If you find it useful, don't hesitate to vote for it, and add your comments.
Hope it will then find someone to take care of this...
Séverin
Thanks, Séverin - voted this up.
V odpovědi na koen roggemans
Re: Request to developers: Please display clock time always with its time zone
autor Randy Thornton -
I like this idea a lot.
There is the possibility that we could have three different time zones: browser, site, user preference. As long as we are warning of the time difference, that is a good thing.
There is the possibility that we could have three different time zones: browser, site, user preference. As long as we are warning of the time difference, that is a good thing.
V odpovědi na Séverin Terrier
Re: Request to developers: Please display clock time always with its time zone
autor Randy Thornton -
Séverin,
I agree, that would be the best way to do it: remind the user that the time is their local time. Time zone names and UTC don't mean anything to normal people and would confuse them.
I agree, that would be the best way to do it: remind the user that the time is their local time. Time zone names and UTC don't mean anything to normal people and would confuse them.
V odpovědi na Randy Thornton
Re: Request to developers: Please display clock time always with its time zone
autor Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Very interesting thread - not necessarily because of the main topic, because of the side-stories that come to my mind. Before touching both, a statement on why I decided to comment although I knew that is a soft spot in Moodle. Right from the beginning Moodle was designed to be multi-lingual. The concept is so neat, I know because I work in an Indic language, it is just amazing. Compared to that broad thinking this time zone is next to embarrassing. So, don't misunderstand that I want to bend it to my thinking - I use Moodle far too long and know my way out of this. It is because of the amount of explanations I had to make to otherwise fully sensible people.
Now straight to the topic. Apparently the mankind is divided in to two types: People who understand time zones and people who don't. Let's call them Globals and Locals. Moodle's time display is tailored to the Locals. Nothing wrong about that. But it is in stark contrast to its pride of Moodle, its stats https://stats.moodle.org/.
Now to some of those off-topics and anecdotes.
@Séverin, I envy you for not "having" to leave your country. May be it is the curse of the diaspora, to have your friends and kin distributed all over the world. If you don't have an idea that their local times are different, they won't be friends very long, we still communicate person-to-person, over the phone!
@Mary, Isn't it an irony, you being in London and not wanting to bother about time zones. Mind you, I grew up in a tropical island, obviously in a single time zone. Still even as school kids we were well aware of the time in London, not because of the Empire "on which the sun never sets", No, because of the BBC. We pulled wired between coconut trees to receive BBC and had an idea of Greenwich time.
Back from anecdotes to a practical problem as an example: Remember the amount of discussions, explanations the Moodle-MOOC participants needed? @For the others: The Moodle-MOOC is generous in terms of deadlines, but there were two hard deadlines because of the workshop activity. Although many had questions about the exact times, nobody was supposed to name it, because each sees his/her own time! I was the wet blanket, who had his timezone set to UTC and dared to name it - in UTC of course!
Now straight to the topic. Apparently the mankind is divided in to two types: People who understand time zones and people who don't. Let's call them Globals and Locals. Moodle's time display is tailored to the Locals. Nothing wrong about that. But it is in stark contrast to its pride of Moodle, its stats https://stats.moodle.org/.
Now to some of those off-topics and anecdotes.
@Séverin, I envy you for not "having" to leave your country. May be it is the curse of the diaspora, to have your friends and kin distributed all over the world. If you don't have an idea that their local times are different, they won't be friends very long, we still communicate person-to-person, over the phone!
@Mary, Isn't it an irony, you being in London and not wanting to bother about time zones. Mind you, I grew up in a tropical island, obviously in a single time zone. Still even as school kids we were well aware of the time in London, not because of the Empire "on which the sun never sets", No, because of the BBC. We pulled wired between coconut trees to receive BBC and had an idea of Greenwich time.
Back from anecdotes to a practical problem as an example: Remember the amount of discussions, explanations the Moodle-MOOC participants needed? @For the others: The Moodle-MOOC is generous in terms of deadlines, but there were two hard deadlines because of the workshop activity. Although many had questions about the exact times, nobody was supposed to name it, because each sees his/her own time! I was the wet blanket, who had his timezone set to UTC and dared to name it - in UTC of course!
V odpovědi na Visvanath Ratnaweera
Re: Request to developers: Please display clock time always with its time zone
autor Randy Thornton -
Vishvanath,
This is gold: "Now straight to the topic. Apparently the mankind is divided in to two types: People who understand time zones and people who don't."
It is so true. I picked up the OP because I lived in India for several years and had to learn timezones to calculate the time back in the US, with the 30 minutes difference. First time I visited Nepal, I almost fell over from laughter at the 15 minutes additional difference from IST, because 15 minutes difference is utterly irrelevant to daily life in South Asia anywhere. Nothing happens on clock time, as you well know. (Ok, except train departures, usually.) I learned a lot about time zones from that, and the power and sometimes usefulness of the arbitrary.
This is gold: "Now straight to the topic. Apparently the mankind is divided in to two types: People who understand time zones and people who don't."
It is so true. I picked up the OP because I lived in India for several years and had to learn timezones to calculate the time back in the US, with the 30 minutes difference. First time I visited Nepal, I almost fell over from laughter at the 15 minutes additional difference from IST, because 15 minutes difference is utterly irrelevant to daily life in South Asia anywhere. Nothing happens on clock time, as you well know. (Ok, except train departures, usually.) I learned a lot about time zones from that, and the power and sometimes usefulness of the arbitrary.
V odpovědi na Randy Thornton
Re: Time zone(s) for India(n subcontinent) [OT]
autor Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Hi Randy
> First time I visited Nepal, I almost fell over from laughter at the 15 minutes additional difference from IST, because 15 minutes difference is utterly irrelevant to daily life in South Asia anywhere.
Hilarious! Yes, the Indian subcontinent is blessed with infinite time. You can imagine the strain I have working with the Swiss. Their obsession with time is not cliché. No, it is simply the force which keeps their nerves fraught.
I couldn't see any shine in the "golden" phrase. May be this version gives it a little twist: Apparently the mankind is divided in to two types: People who live in a time zones and people who don't.
> First time I visited Nepal, I almost fell over from laughter at the 15 minutes additional difference from IST, because 15 minutes difference is utterly irrelevant to daily life in South Asia anywhere.
Hilarious! Yes, the Indian subcontinent is blessed with infinite time. You can imagine the strain I have working with the Swiss. Their obsession with time is not cliché. No, it is simply the force which keeps their nerves fraught.
I couldn't see any shine in the "golden" phrase. May be this version gives it a little twist: Apparently the mankind is divided in to two types: People who live in a time zones and people who don't.
V odpovědi na Visvanath Ratnaweera
Re: Time zone(s) for India(n subcontinent) [OT]
autor Randy Thornton -
Yes, if there were ever two opposing world views about time, Swiss versus South Asia would be the ones
V odpovědi na Visvanath Ratnaweera
Re: Request to developers: Please display clock time always with its time zone
autor Visvanath Ratnaweera -
I know, this is not going to change anything. Since the memory is still fresh, happened yesterday, thought of documenting it.
Yesterday I didn't get any response to an urgent request "for hours". Complained, got explanations, claims and counter-claims. Lot of excitement. Today I made an entry on the same interface and noticed that the time stamp immediately shifted two hours in to the past (pic).
Yesterday I didn't get any response to an urgent request "for hours". Complained, got explanations, claims and counter-claims. Lot of excitement. Today I made an entry on the same interface and noticed that the time stamp immediately shifted two hours in to the past (pic).
Oh, yes! I am in CEST, 2 hours past UTC. The tool shows time without a time zone. Since this tool is for a local group, and trained from moodle.org to consider time without time zone as local time, my complaint of "hours" was off by two hours!
Postscript: I wrote to the admins, they reacted with surprise. Got the impression that they are not even aware of this. :-?
Postscript: I wrote to the admins, they reacted with surprise. Got the impression that they are not even aware of this. :-?
@the moderators: Would you kindly split this sub-thread at https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=405564#p1639831 and give it the subject title "Request to developers: Please display clock time always with its time zone"?
V odpovědi na Visvanath Ratnaweera
Re: Request to developers: Please display clock time always with its time zone
autor Visvanath Ratnaweera -
A kind of continuation, more a repetition here: https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=418494.