Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Ash Bettridge -
Number of replies: 25

As part of the release of Moodle 3.8, we are improving the usability of the Moodle Forum by introducing grading and we need your help!

With the new design we want to see how easy it is for people to complete a series of tasks. On the link below you’ll be asked to use a prototype to answer a few questions.

There are no right or wrong answers: just do what comes naturally.

To start click here (https://app.usabilityhub.com/do/8df712ef7748/500c)

Thank you, 

Moodle UX Team


*Note - if you would like to try an example test first click this link - https://app.usabilityhub.com/preview/c4c8b3aa12d0


Average of ratings: Useful (2)
In reply to Ash Bettridge

Re: Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Rick Jerz -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers
I did this.

Quite honestly, I was not impressed with the perspective of the new Forum method. Maybe I am an old-time, maybe I have seen how other LMSs poorly implement discussion forums, or maybe I have just come to appreciate the current discussion tool as I have used it extensively for over 10 years. I once saw a comment that "the discussion forum activity goes back to when Martin created Moodle." Maybe so, but the discussion tool remains one of the most powerful discussion forum tools of all LMSs. It is the only major LMS forum tool that provides a method of "grading in context." I am one who believes that the only accurate way to grade discussions is to read them. Yes, I know that some instructors would prefer to have Moodle simply count words, or posts, but when you ask a student to say something, I believe that the grader should have to read not only what they say, but where they say it. For example, I never use Moodle to grade "student-by-student," because one then doesn't see the entire conversation. And I hate to say this, I don't use Moodle's ability to reply to an email feature (other LMSs have this too) because you are not seeing the email in context to the entire conversation. Well, just me. 

As an example, I saw that the new design put grading to the right. I actually prefer grading below the post. To me, this seems like a much better place to grade, right after reading the student's post, somewhat equivalent to "the next paragraph." Putting things to the right also makes me wonder if how this design will appear on a smartphone. I actually do read and grade forum posts, while traveling, on my smartphone.

I like how Moodle indents replies and provides options for viewing posts. In the proposed forum tool, I couldn't detect who was replying to whom. I actually prefer how Moodle currently shows the person's profile image within the block, not off to the side.

I am one how doesn't use rubrics in grading and replying to students' posts.  Somehow, maybe because I teach college-age adults, I don't see its purpose. I can't imagine what it would be like to go to a social gathering and have everyone speak the same limited selection of canned phrases.  Wouldn't this be boring?  So I still need to be convinced of discussion rubrics.

Now, I know this new forum tool is still under development. And it is great to solicit ideas. There have been many ideas provided over the years and it is always great to see continued development. Also, there really is room for improvement. As an instructor, I find the current forum activity tool very easy to use, to read, and to grade. But I believe that there is room for improvement from the student side of forums.

I look forward to some continued discussions. I chose to post here because I wasn't sure if there was any better place to post. If you agree, let's encourage some additional discussion. I was glad to see S. kavita's post.
Average of ratings: Useful (6)
In reply to Rick Jerz

Re: Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Elizabeth Dalton -

Rick, do you currently use ratings to grade forum posts? 

What I’ve done in the past is set the forum max grade to 10 points and use “sum of points” as the aggregation method. I ask my students to post one new thread (about their weekly projects) and offer substantive feedback on two other threads, with their project post worth up to 4 points and the other 2 worth up to 3 each. This is a bit clumsy, as it doesn’t really show a clear percentage grade under any post, so I get a lot of questions early in the term, but it does work. My main objection is that I can’t also use student ratings, even just for the +1 sort of feature we have in the Moodle.org forums. But as far as I know, this method will still be available after the whole-forum grading is implemented.

I think whole-forum grading is very useful in many contexts, even if it isn’t something you would use. Is there anything about the current proposal that would impair the functionality you use now?

The split screen would probably be hard to use on a mobile device, I agree. I expect it would work like a side drawer that can be expanded or collapsed at need. But for those who want/need whole forum grading, I’m not sure any other interface would work any better on a phone-sized screen.

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In reply to Elizabeth Dalton

Re: Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Rick Jerz -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers
Hi Elizabeth. Yes, I use forum ratings in all required courses. I too use "Sum of ratings" and in my case, set the Maximum grade to 8 (students get 2 points per post, and after making 4 good posts, then achieve the 8 total points.) What students see is 2 (1) at the bottom, and I sometimes have to explain that this means that they have received 2 points from 1 grader (instructor.) Yes, this does work, and yes, if a student happens to make only one post at a point in time (but before they are finished) their grade book shows an F for having made only 1 of the 4 posts. But my students seem to catch on quickly. Yes, under this system, they don't ever see that the 2 points are 100% of what I would ever (normally) provide, but it does provide the ability for me to give 3 or more points for a very exceptional post.

Yes, I too think that forum grading is very useful. The thing that I don't like about the proposed system is that it moves the grading/rating to the right, somewhat out-of-context with what I have just read. I prefer that the Rating (Grading) be right below the post (as we see it here in these Moodle.org forums). The way that Grading appears to be positioned in the right column seems to move the grading to the right, and out of context of what I have just read. By what method would I know that I am grading one student's particular post? Would I be required to click somewhere on a student's post to then cause the grading to be for that post? The way that the Grading appears right now in the proposed method shows a student name, but what happens if a student makes three posts? Which post is being graded. Or, is there an assumption that the instructor is reading all three posts, and then grading in aggregate? It appears that it would take some effort for me to know which particular post from this student I am grading. So in other words, the proposed right-side grading system seems to make it confusing to know which exact post is being graded.

The mobile issue is not a simple issue. The power of the Boost theme, and Moodle in general, is that one can use Moodle from their smartphone's browser. So the developers cannot ignore this need to keep Moodle "responsive." With the proposed layout, it seems to be assumed that one would never grade forum discussions from a smaller screen! This is a big oversite and (of course, in my opinion) needs to be addressed. And it is not as simple as what is currently done with Boost's right-side column, or the NavDrawer. I don't see anyway of moving the grading area to the bottom of what might be 50-100 posts. Grading has to always be nearby the actual posts.

When you say "I’m not sure any other interface would work any better on a phone-sized screen," my response is "The current forum grading system is a better interface from a smartphone." Yes, I have graded forum discussions from my phone. Grading forum posts is a great use of time when I am traveling in a bus, train, or car (as a passenger, of course.) I can read and grade forum posts whenever I have a cellular connection (which is still more common than a wi-fi connection.)

Maybe what should be looked at is UI that puts this grading right below each post. Yes, it adds clutter. Yes, I would like to control the clutter by disabling the features that I would not use (Rubric, Claim, Organization, Feedback, and Notifications.) I might use the newer "Reply privately" this semester, and I somehow don't see this in the new proposed system, but maybe it will show itself somewhere. I am not sure if "Feeback" is meant to be the equivalent of "Reply," but it seems to me that these are two different things. In the mockup, I don't see a "Reply" button anywhere.

The proposed layout is probably good for those instructors who really aren't interested in reading a student's posts, seeing what they have replied to, seeing the surrounding discussion, and then providing a grade. This proposed system seems to be better for grading an individual's "stand-alone" post. So maybe what we need is a choice "Do you want to use the grading system that grades "in context" or "by the individual?"

Remember (from Wikipedia) "Moodle was originally developed by Martin Dougiamas to help educators create online courses with a focus on interaction and collaborative construction of content.."  The current forum tool seems to provide this. 
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In reply to Elizabeth Dalton

Re: Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Steven A -
Elizabeth, your "clumsy" method is similar to my "clumsy" method. smile I'm glad to see forums getting lots of attention for 3.8! Having improved (i.e., clearer, easier to use, more robust) functionality for both teacher and student grading capabilities (simultaneously and not), inside discussions, across forums, rubrics, and so on, opens up all kinds of opportunities for innovation in assessment.
In reply to Rick Jerz

Re: Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Steven A -
Spot on, Rick. Thanks for your post. I also "grade in context" for the reasons you've stated.

The usability test seems to be a dedicated grading screen, not an actual discussion. It actually reminds me of the "Forum posts" and "Forum discussions" pages accessible from the "Miscellaneous" section of a student's profile, just with grading functionality added on the right. If I remember correctly, the screenshots in the usability test show discussions and posts for a fictitious student named Frank something.

So in an actual discussion full of posts, will we retain the ability to grade in context? I hope so! And if so, is it possible to have more and different kinds of grading options available in context? Maybe like a button that pops up a rubric? That might be great! I think I'm in favour of keeping the dedicated grading screen (if that's what the usability test is) and adding the same more robust grading functionality to discussions in context too!
In reply to Rick Jerz

Re: Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Andrew Lyons -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
HI Rick,

Thanks for taking the time to write your feedback. I’ve been meaning to reply for some time but haven’t had an opportunity.

This project has many aspects, and many areas to consider. There are also many possible ways to grade forum content. Right now we support ratings, which essentially gives very basic grading of individual content for each user. We also have a number of different ways of grading things across Moodle, and each area differs from every other. Those are both things that we are working to change.

The project at this stage is to add a grading interface, in the same style as the current assignment grading interface, to the forum. Initially this will just cover grading a user’s contributions holistically - that is one grade for all contributions for the user.

In doing so we are working to write a reusable “Grader” interface that any other part of Moodle can use. That would mean that instructors have a single type of grading interface for assignments, forums, lessons, etc.

On the backend side that’s relatively complex . We sadly can’t just reuse the assignment interface because it was never designed to be re-usable, and it’s using older technologies which we’re actively working to remove (YUI2 and YUI3). There are also a number of known limitations of the existing system. Therefore we’re trying to write a brand new set of Javascript modules, Templates, web services, and other relevant code. If we can get this right (and that’s the hard bit) then it should be a lot easier for developers to make gradable activities and to do so in a way familiar to their users.

Given the complexity of these requirements we’re combining them with the simplest form of grading - i.e. each user gets one grade for the activity. We’re also limiting the scope fo the user interface - it’s easy to bolt-on extra requirements and blow the scope out of the water.

When each user only gets a single grade, it makes sense to view all contributions for a single user in one place at a time. We’re trying to give those contributions context - showing information such as the discussion to which the post was in, and making it easy to jump to the post in the context of what it was a reply to.

In the future we hope to offer additional forum grading options - specifically the grading of individual forum posts. Such an interface is a little more complex to create (but certainly doable). Whereas grading a whole forum doesn’t interact directly with the content, grading of individual posts must do so - we need to show which posts have been graded, and provide a way of showing every single grade for each graded post. That adds a huge amount of complexity.

We also hope to add different grading layout options. I too favour a top/bottom grading rather than left/right. Theoretically these are things which shouldn’t be too tricky to add in the future because they’re just different layouts of the same actual content.

To add further complexity, Moodle doesn’t easily support multiple grade items for the same activity (i.e. you can award a rating, and you can award a per-forum post, and you can grade each individual post, and you can grade a user’s contributions for a single discussion, and you can grade a user’s use of emojis, and …). That isn’t to say that it is not supported, just that it is a complex process right now. That’s also something that we’re trying to improve upon.

I hope that this answers some of your queries as to the direction as a whole.

Andrew
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In reply to Andrew Lyons

Re: Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Rick Jerz -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers
Andrew, thanks much.

Relative to grading methods and what you mentioned in paragraph #2, Yes, "ratings" is the only way right now. Sure, this could be improved, adding more flexibility and of course, more complexity, which doesn’t bother me.  I think what is needed is that when one creates a forum, for Scale:Type we need to add "Percentage," and of course, the maximum should then be 100%.  Sure, we should still think through if aggregation types need modification.

Relative to some kind of “advanced grader” tool, yes, this could be useful.  And as an "advanced grader tool", it might be fine to design it so that it is not responsive, and only useful from a computer.  I too prefer a top/bottom approach, instead of side-by-side.  But I suggest retaining the current forum grading tool.  

Right now, it is possible to grade by student, using the current Advanced Search tool and filtering by the forum and specific student.  Yes, a bit cumbersome because one needs to repeat the filtering criteria for each student.  However, maybe adding one can produce a method that allows the instructor to conveniently step through each student in the course. 

One can currently see a grade for every individual post by using the Advanced Search tool.  I used the Advanced Search as a method of verifying that I have rated every post.  But I do agree that some people might want a much better summary of what happened in the forum.  The data is all there (via sql) but a nice report doesn't exist.  (Maybe someone already created this report as an add-in?  I haven't checked.)

Yes, developing these new features can be tricky, especially if we add more grading functionality like "per post," and as long as we are at it, whether the post was an initial post or a reply.

I think where I disagree is that I do not believe that grading forum posts by student is a correct approach!  My argument is that the only way to accurately grade "discussions" is "in context."   And Moodle is the only LMS that provides this ability!   

Let me illustrate.  My first attachment shows my initial forum topic and John's replies.   The second attachment shows my initial topic and what Kathy said.  How would you grade these?  Aren't they identical?  Furthermore, you should see how any automated method to "count words" would not be accurate because of that "Lorem Ipsom" post. This is why I also oppose grading by word count.  And how about that last post "Thanks a lot." Should it get full credit as a post?  If we simply count posts, it does.

I am going to let you and others think about this for a day or two, then I will come back and post the full discussion.



Attachment John Posts.jpg
Attachment Kathy Posts.jpg
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In reply to Rick Jerz

Re: Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Edward Beck -

Rick,

We’ve had many discussions about this on a variety of forums. Inside the Moodle Users Association and out. 

Each time, you’ve made a comment about how this grading interface would allow graders to grade based on word count or by not reading the students posts.

Every time I have replied and told you that the grading interface is not about that. If you go through the grading interface again, there is a button that isn’t terribly well labeled that lets you go back and forth from seeing posts “in context” and “just of one student.” Basically the interface is doing the equivalent of the advanced search you described and allowing the instructor to grade on the same page instead of having multiple tabs open.

In context, where you like to see the back and forth between students, would allow you to see if students responses are additive to each other and still give grades. You could also see just one students responses. Their whole response. Not just a word count.

There isn’t anywhere in this interface that encourages faculty to grade a students posts without reading them. That’s something you have repeated a lot, but I don’t understand where you got that idea.


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In reply to Edward Beck

Re: Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Rick Jerz -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers
Yes, Edward, maybe so. Maybe I don't see it.

When I look at the second "demo" screen, partly shown below, it appears to me that one is grading the various posts from Frank Leone, and that these seem out of context. I might be confused with what I see, however. I see Frank replying to Sally, but I don't know what else has been said by others, and I am not sure if "Moodle V/S..." is a new topic, but I do see, again, a single reply by Frank. On the right, we seem to be trying to grade all of Frank's posts, in aggregate, but I am not convinced that we are seeing the entire context.  No, I don't see the "button that isn't terribly well labeled" that allows one to go back to "in context."

I know it is hard to put together a demo showing the entire way this might work.  Yes, I see a button that says "See Conversation" but I don't know if that button then shows us all posts and provides individual post grading, similar to the current way of "rating" posts, and I see in one of your posts that you seem to be asking the same question.  So I don't know how the Grade Out of 100 interacts which individual posts grades.  And I don't know if the "Feeback" on the right-side is for all posts, in aggregate, and how this new interface allows me to comment on only one of Frank's posts.  And the "next student" button, along with the question "How would you grade the next student" is also suggesting that we are grading "by student," again, what I describe as grading out of context.

No, I am not trying to suggest that the Moodle developers are trying to do word count, or post count. Sorry about that. What I am trying to do is to address what I commonly see by "some" folks wanting to use these methods, so I am trying to reiterate my dislike for these ideas.  I spoke of this in my first reply, and I remind folks of this in my last reply.  The only other mention of word count, in this discussion, is your post above.   (I see these because I can see the entire "context" of this discussion.  smile  )

Now Edward, sometimes we read discussions differently because we are not sitting next to each other and observing "tone."  Please understand, I am not upset or anything like that by your reply to me.  This is all healthy discussion; you have caused me to think a little more critically; and I can assure you that I am calmly typing this reply to you.  If we had a feature that said "Show all of Edward's replies to Rick involving word count" it would help me understand how we have had these discussions many times before.  But in this discussion, this is your first reply to me, so the "we" in your post probably means others, not you and I.  Yes, sometimes people repeat themselves, and sometimes I say to myself "I know that I have said this many times before" but I don't know how to avoid some repetition (although Moodle makes it easy to link to other discussions via "permalinks.")    You did cause me to use Moodle's Advanced Search here on moodle.org, searched for "count words" by "Jerz," and I only found these two in this discussion.  But yes, I do know that I have talked about this before, and certainly have talked about grading forum posts, in context, before (maybe around 10 times).  When I do this, I believe that I am always complimenting Moodle for this great feature, which no other LMS that I have used (B, C, and D) offers.

Attachment New Forum.jpg
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In reply to Rick Jerz

Re: Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Edward Beck -
No Actually, Rick, when I said we've had this same conversation, I literally meant you and I have had this exact same conversation before inside the Moodle Users Association.

https://moodleassociation.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=545

Both times, it was improving grading inside Moodle, and both times you brought up grading based on the number of posts or a word count as an argument. It always confused me that you brought this up when no one was actually talking about. From those two experiences, it made me feel like you continue to associate any change in the Moodle forum grading interface as an attempt to grade by word count, even though no one in either discussion seems to be advocating for that.
In reply to Edward Beck

Re: Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Rick Jerz -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers
Okay, Edward. Now I understand.

Okay, I will not bring up "counting words" again unless someone else suggests it.

Now I can get back to improvements to forums. I will still make a post to follow up with my in-context grading example, which I finally constructed.

(As a side note, I sometimes go between Moodle.org forums and Canvas Community forums, because my school uses Canvas and I use Moodle. It might be that some folks over on the Canvas Community, as in this post-https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/3454-word-count-for-speedgrader-docviewer-grading, have asked for it. If so, sorry about the confusion.)

(As a second side note, I was at a McGraw-Hill event this summer, and MH was probing to see if an automatic grader for submitted papers would be useful. I guess that some instructors who give students written assignments don't like to read and grade them. Oh well.)
In reply to Rick Jerz

Re: Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Rick Jerz -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers

Okay, I promised a few days ago that I would return to this post of mine.

Below is the entire discussion for this topic.  My rating criteria is “maximum 2 points per post.”  Both students made the same number of original posts, and both made two replies. You can see by how I posted and graded that John does not get any points and Kathy gets 5.  John’s final “Thanks a lot!” is sarcastic, whereas Kathy’s is complimentary.

You should see that these posts, when grading by-user and out-of-context, look identical and might typically be given the same rating score.  But “in context” they are quite different.  For the sake of completeness, you should notice that if someone (not me, Edward, or anyone proposing changes) were to deploy some form of automatic counting of words or posts, that these posts would “pass” even any “human” grader might think differently.

Electronic discussions are different than in-class (F2F) discussions.  Grading of in-class discussions is seldom done, nor recorded.  But electronic discussions can capture the words and ideas of every student and presents a “grading” challenge.  Yes, one can debate whether an instructor should really be reading and grading every post, in context, and that is why I sometimes see some folks wanting easier methods.  And I do know that some instructors are fine simply going into Moodle’s single-item gradebook view, and giving the same grade to every student, a technique that I don’t use.  

Having said all of the above, I do believe that there are many ways to improve forum discussions from both the student’s perspective and the instructor’s perspective.  But I certainly would not support getting rid of the current method.  Again, Moodle’s current method far surpasses what other LMSs provide.


In reply to Rick Jerz

Re: Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Elizabeth Dalton -
Rick, I really don't think anyone is talking about eliminating the current ratings-based method of evaluating individual posts. I know of no plans within Moodle HQ to implement word-count based grading, either. For some people/institutions/purposes, grading student participation for the entire forum is valuable. For others, it is not. Since changing the grading interface for individual posts is not being done at this time, I think you can rest easy that your current method is not in jeopardy. This particular initiative is not helpful to you, but it shouldn't have any negative impact on you, either (other than taking up resources at HQ that won't be spent on some other development that would benefit you more directly).

We (HQ) are well aware that people use the Forum in several distinct ways, and that we need to preserve functionality for these different uses, and not assume that a single interface will work for all purposes in the future. smile
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In reply to Elizabeth Dalton

Re: Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Rick Jerz -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers
You made my day, Elizabeth!  smile

Yep, I realize that different tools are used in different ways, and it is great that Moodle supports these.

(Hope to see you in Barcelona!)
In reply to Elizabeth Dalton

Re: Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Edward Beck -

Elizabeth,

That seems slightly different than Andrew Nichols explanation in this forum. 

He seemed to imply that grading the forum holistically would be the only way for now, and that in the future things like grading individual posts would need to be added later. 

Elizabeth or Andrew, can either of you confirm definitively whether the current ratings based grading will be available as an option where an instructor must choose either ratings or the advanced grader?

In reply to Edward Beck

Re: Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Andrew Lyons -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Hi Ed,

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what this Andrew Nichols fellow told you, but Andrew Nicols possibly should have made it clearer that the new grading is currently only the holistic grading, and that we are not removing any existing functionality.

It would be pointless to use Ratings in the new interface - doing so would make things much slower and more cumbersome. There is no plan to move the existing Ratings options to the new grading interface but we are not removing it.

Both the current ratings-based grading, and the new holistic interface will be available.
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In reply to Elizabeth Dalton

Re: Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Andrew Lyons -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
That is correct. We will not be removing any existing functionality.
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In reply to Ash Bettridge

Re: Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Yunus Akarsu -
I like new design, better than old grading thank you for new design
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In reply to Ash Bettridge

Re: Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Ash Bettridge -
3.8 Forum Grading Design Survey “Part 2”

Thank you everyone for the great response to our first design survey - we now have new designs.

If you missed Part 1 that’s ok - you can still take part in this design survey.

To start click below;

https://app.usabilityhub.com/do/41d3886471d7/798f

Thank you, 

Moodle UX Team
Average of ratings: Useful (2)
In reply to Ash Bettridge

Re: Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Edward Beck -
After taking both of these usability tests, I can see that you are making strides.

The one question was the question that asked how you would return to the forum. I guessed that the answer would be "Close," But would save also close out grading?

Assignment recently added back "Save and next" and that's an important quality of life thing to have for instructors to move quickly and easily through a stack of student submissions. Is that what the downward arrow is next to save?
In reply to Edward Beck

Re: Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Ash Bettridge -

Thanks Edward,

The Save button will be changed to "save and next". You would have noticed an arrow to the right of that which will be showing save.

This allows the user to save if they with without going next.

Any feedback let me know.

Ash

In reply to Ash Bettridge

Re: Forum Grading 3.8 - Usability Testing

by Dominique Palumbo -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers
Done too.
Good job.

(I've send the disccussion to my colleague, it's a very interesting chat.)