New use for a Forum but,.....

New use for a Forum but,.....

by Steve Ambro v3.8 -
Number of replies: 28

Although I have looked at plugins for this I still find a forum to be the best method.

I have 30 entries or so each represents a day of lesson. It has a title, description and a block to place files.  Very simple.  The problem is that when I edit one, it jumps to the top.  To get them back into order, I have to do the finger calisthenics to edit/save them in proper order.

Of course, there will always be the one that needs editing after the fact.

I have access to the server and database and might be able to sort them there but wonder if there is an easier way.

Sort by title?

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Steve Ambro v3.8

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by John Bennett -

I am probably being stupid and may not have understood your needs but can't you just create a single thread and then display them in threaded order? Or do you need to change the order from time to time?

John

In reply to John Bennett

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Steve Ambro v3.8 -

You understand more than others.

Yes, they are updated occasionally and then they are out of order.  To put them back in order, I have to edit all of them again in order.  It is a six click operation each and if I make a mistake, sometimes the process has to start over.

The forum doesn't always need to be sorted by date either.  I can use one that is can be ordered by student name.  This would make it academically designed.



In reply to Steve Ambro v3.8

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by John Bennett -

What I suggested above seems to work on my moodle site - I can edit and they return to the original order.

In reply to John Bennett

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Steve Ambro v3.8 -

Maybe it is a setting.  When I edit an entry, it gets a new date stamp and moves to the top of the list.

In reply to Steve Ambro v3.8

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by C Schipper -

Use the Database activity.


Add a text input field for the title, a text area field for the description and a couple of file upload fields for your files. Take away the permission to add new entries for students and you're good to go.

In reply to C Schipper

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Steve Ambro v3.8 -

I will look  into this but wonder: Will the contents of the database activity transfer in a backup without special attention?

In reply to Steve Ambro v3.8

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by C Schipper -

As long as the backup includes enrolled users it will backup with entries just fine.

In reply to C Schipper

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Steve Ambro v3.8 -

So, semester to semester work is about the same being a special request to the Site Admin to get it transferred.
Too bad there is no multi-page teacher's resource that is private and transfers without special attention.

Or is there?

In reply to Steve Ambro v3.8

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Robert Brenstein -
multi-page resource -- use the book module, for example
resource that is private -- make it hidden (visible to teachers, invisible to students)
transfers without special attention -- book content transfers even if no user data is transferred (you can just use the sharing cart to copy it between courses yourself)
In reply to Robert Brenstein

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Steve Ambro v3.8 -

Am I in the wrong resource or is this as far away of a computer object as one can get?

It appears that you suggested using the  Book resource. If so, this does not have the needed usefulness so that having to re-edit everything in a forum instead will fit my needs rather than use something as rigid as a book.

Is there any flexibility in creating the order of the sub chapters once they are created?  If not, then this is no better than writing your book ahead of time using a word processor then carefully placing them into the book resource. At that point it is nothing more than a presentation device.

A single mistake and you probably have to start all over.  I cannot believe this resource is as useless as it first seems but I see no method, aside from text entry, to customize it.

I hope I am not seeing this as a whole and also hope you suggested something else.

In reply to Steve Ambro v3.8

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Robert Brenstein -
I responded to your immediate post, but maybe I misinterpreted what you wrote. Moodle distinguishes between resources and activities conceptually. Resources are more static in the sense that they usually are edited by the instructors only. Activities require input from students. Some modules can be used as either; for example, we use glossary either as a resource or as an activity.

Book is simply a multi-page resource module, which is what I thought you wanted. Chapters an subchapters can be edited and rearranged as you wish at any time. You can also insert links to files within the course. Each book page (chapter or subchapter) you could be a lesson. It sounds, however, that you want more, although it is not quite clear what.

I just looked again at your original post. You talk about 30 entries, which I take as teaching units in your course, each having a title, text, and a set of files. I gather there is a reason that you do not want to just have 30 topical sections in your Moodle course, although topics stay in the order you set and you can show all or a subset of them, and students can switch between seeing them all or just one of them. You could try one of the alternative course formats. If you want more compact display with more control and mixing different things, you can use the database module, as suggested by someone. The dataform module offers even more functionality. However, a simple topic section with a title and a label or page resource for text and a folder with files could be simpler for students to use.
In reply to Robert Brenstein

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Steve Ambro v3.8 -


"Book is simply a multi-page resource module, which is what I thought you wanted. Chapters an subchapters can be edited and rearranged as you wish at any time. You can also insert links to files within the course. Each book page (chapter or subchapter) you could be a lesson. It sounds, however, that you want more, although it is not quite clear what."

Before I responded, I had finally discovered how to create new chapters and sub chapters but found no method to re arrange them.   I find it frustrating that there are no real pathfinders in how to use these resources.  Being new to Books, I guess I am, once again, in a position to write one.  I one on Groups and another on Generico Filters already, It looks as if I am going to have to get back to work.

"I just looked again at your original post. You talk about 30 entries, which I take as teaching units in your course, each having a title, text, and a set of files."

That is 30 entries for each of two courses.

"I gather there is a reason that you do not want to just have 30 topical sections in your Moodle course, although topics stay in the order you set and you can show all or a subset of them, and students can switch between seeing them all or just one of them."

This is strictly a set of lesson plans for my use and my use only.  As forum entries, the recent class time was automatically at the top of the list and when it was used, it automatically ended up at the bottom of the list. The entire list is at the top of my course page as one Moodle entry.  Aside from the atrocious sorting problem,  the forum is an excellent resource.  It also contains the location to upload a program file (VB or HTML) that will be the demonstration of the day.

"You could try one of the alternative course formats. If you want more compact display with more control and mixing different things, you can use the database module, as suggested by someone. The dataform module offers even more functionality."

One problem is the strong learning curve to find out if another resource is a good fit.  Easy for the experienced, not so easy for the beginner.  This is why I am figuring that an SQL action might be the real answer because the order is the only problem.  All other forum features fit the need.

From my 15 years of SQL, 30 years ago, I envision a relatively simple command set.
PROJECT temp FROM selectedForum using * SORTED BY title.
Then replace the original selectedForum with temp.  Unfortunately I don't know the Moodle database table and column names.  Having my own home Moodle for testing, I could refine it enough to convince the SiteAdmin to adopt it.

I am not sure what is least intolerable:

>  staying with the forum using manual sorting,
>  building the SQL and getting the SiteAdmin to trust my code,
>  picking up now one of two resources to learn to see if they work.

When I considered using the book resource, I found the custom, as opposed to numbers or letters, but it did not seem to take.  At least not the way I thought it would.  I will look to see how to do this sorting you speak of.  I guess it down not have the option to drag a file to the page.  Maybe  missed it.

I will have to overcome my aversion to databases though. I spent one term at the university and then 10 years married to one I developed for my brother's business.  Then I was required to teach a few years of Access to students that did not want to learn it and I knew they would never use it even though I had good examples on how useful they are. 

I ramble,......







In reply to Steve Ambro v3.8

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Robert Brenstein -
When you have more than one chapter, up and down arrows appear in the row of control icons in the table of content, when you are in the edit mode. You can use them to change the order of chapters.

You can hack the forum module, of course, but bear in mind that changes in the module code will affect all instances of forums, including those that are used as real forums of any sort. This may be fine if you use a personal copy of Moodle. Furthermore, if you want to retain those changes through Moodle updates, you have to make sure that you do them using GIT. Otherwise, they will simply vanish. You will need to redo them for each major version upgrade. A better way would be to create a clone of the forum module, renaming it accordingly, and then maintain on your own.

If that is for your own usage, dataform might be the way to go. It requires some learning, but that knowledge will become useful for many things, whereas code hacking becomes hassle on the long term. Personally, I would still use the topic format for the course, viewing a single topic and switching between them using the popup menu. Each topic would have its own upload folder. This requires more clicks but is quite straightforward.

Your choice smile
In reply to Robert Brenstein

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Steve Ambro v3.8 -

When you have more than one chapter, up and down arrows appear in the row of control icons in the table of content, when you are in the edit mode. You can use them to change the order of chapters.

You can hack the forum module, of course, but bear in mind that changes in the module code will affect all instances of forums, including those that are used as real forums of any sort.

Upon looking at the forum table in the database, every forum is uniquely defined by a number and related entries into this forum are ale also related to that number.  Therefore, this "hack" will be unique to the specific forum I wish to sort.  No other forum will be affected.  Of course, I will test this on my home system before asking the university to adopt it.  I could also, have the forum downloaded from the University, do the sort on my home system then bring it back into the University Moodle.  A few extra steps but there will be no changes to the Moodle except for the sorted records for my own forum.

This may be fine if you use a personal copy of Moodle. Furthermore, if you want to retain those changes through Moodle updates, you have to make sure that you do them using GIT. Otherwise, they will simply vanish. You will need to redo them for each major version upgrade. A better way would be to create a clone of the forum module, renaming it accordingly, and then maintain on your own.

None of this code will be an actual part of the system so nothing will be lost in the upgrades.

If that is for your own usage, dataform might be the way to go. It requires some learning, but that knowledge will become useful for many things, whereas code hacking becomes hassle on the long term.

The Book did not seem to have any capacity to me to upload my work files.  Does the Dataform?  I will check into it.

Personally, I would still use the topic format for the course, viewing a single topic and switching between them using the popup menu. Each topic would have its own upload folder. This requires more clicks but is quite straightforward.

I am not sure what you mean by "topic format".  Is this in contrast to the weekly format? 

In reply to Steve Ambro v3.8

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Robert Brenstein -
The "topic format" is indeed an alternative to the "weekly format" among others. Moodle comes with 4 course formats pre-installed, but you can add other:
https://moodle.org/plugins/browse.php?list=category&id=19

My general comments about hacking the core still apply even if you make your hack work for a specific forum. Note that forum id is fixed for a given forum instance and that id will be different on your computer and on the central system. Each time you import a forum, a new instance is created, with a new id. Just something to watch for.

Your wrote that "None of this code will be an actual part of the system so nothing will be lost in the upgrades." I do not see how you can hack the forum module without making that hack part of the Moodle code. I used to do such hacks and eventually gave up since the effort required to maintain those hacks across Moodle upgrades outweighed their benefits. That should not stop you to try, though wink
In reply to Robert Brenstein

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Steve Ambro v3.8 -

I guess I am not seeing what you define as a "hack". If simple re-ordering of a set of records is a hack, then why would it not be copied in Moodle updates since I am not changing any code?

I do spy a kind of hope though.  In the database, I can sort by the subject.  Maybe sooner or later the forum will adopt features like this for a more productive environment.



In reply to Steve Ambro v3.8

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Robert Brenstein -
If you can do it without modifying Moodle code, good for you smile
In reply to Robert Brenstein

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Steve Ambro v3.8 -

For all three,

That the installer is not working is due to permissions somewhere in PHP.  Being a home system and I am the only user, we never bothered to look for it.

Mod folder, will try that.

Changes are not going to be in the code, rather in sorting records of a specific part of the forums table.



In reply to Robert Brenstein

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Steve Ambro v3.8 -

I do not see data form, nor database for that matter, i nmy resource list.  Does ithave to be enabled somewhere? I looked throughout site admin but did not see it.

In reply to Steve Ambro v3.8

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Robert Brenstein -
The Dataform module is mostly likely not installed. You can fetch it here:
https://moodle.org/plugins/mod_dataform

The Database module should be part of the core installation. Check the Plugins overview in the Site administration, the section with Activity modules, to see whether it is active.
In reply to Robert Brenstein

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Steve Ambro v3.8 -

Yep, downloaded the dataform, will look into that..

Database: Disabled at server level.
Thoughts on how  I undisablei it?


In reply to Steve Ambro v3.8

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Robert Brenstein -
Site administration --> Plugins --> Activity modules --> Manage activities --> click the eye in the "Hide/Show" column
In reply to Robert Brenstein

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Steve Ambro v3.8 -

Or not,...  I find the Database entry and the eye is there.  When I hover over it it says "Hide"  I click anyway and the line goes grey and the eye has a line through it, I click it back,  Settings entry still claims that it is disabled at server level.


In reply to Steve Ambro v3.8

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Robert Brenstein -
No idea. Consider, however, that the plugins installer does not work, may be there is a glitch in the installation.
In reply to Robert Brenstein

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Steve Ambro v3.8 -


OK, I have the plugin but since my Plugin Installer is not working, I don;t know where to place the unzipped folder.  Can you tell me where to go?

In reply to Steve Ambro v3.8

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Robert Brenstein -
Should go into the mod folder, if I am not mistaken, where folders with all other modules are.
In reply to Steve Ambro v3.8

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Mike Churchward -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers

Hi -

You said:

I find it frustrating that there are no real pathfinders in how to use these resources.  Being new to Books, I guess I am, once again, in a position to write one.

Before you do, make sure you've looked at https://docs.moodle.org/31/en/Book_module, and the various resources at the bottom. And, of course anything you can add to any of that will be well appreciated by the community.

Mike

In reply to Mike Churchward

Re: New use for a Forum but,.....

by Steve Ambro v3.8 -


When I look into these descriptions, I get lost in the theory.  It is like baking a cake that shows me the ingredients with descriptions of what they are but there are no instructions on how to make it.

This is what feel  the docs on Groups should be:
http://www.moodleworld.com/pathfinder-moodle-beginners-groups-groupings-learnmoodle/