Moodle in English: THEMES FORUM GENERAL DISCUSSION

THEMES FORUM GENERAL DISCUSSION

by Fernando Acedo - Saturday, 30 April 2016, 6:14 PM

Many times we need to ask users about the environment used. I do it myself many times to request the moodle and adaptable version in order to provide better support.

In other support forums, you can create a form that users must fill before post. In this template you can request all the information needed like scripts, versions, server environment, ...

I'm sure moodle can't do it but probably a message in the top of the themes forum, where some other information is displayed: documentation, Plugins directory, moderators could be modified to inform the users to include the moodle version and theme name and version. I know nobody will read it but I don't see any problem to show it.

Just a though.

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Re: Should Adaptable issues separated rather than in one big post?

by Richard Oelmann - Saturday, 30 April 2016, 6:43 PM

It used to be there Fernando - I think it was removed a while back when HQ did quite a bit of work re-organising the forums and I seem to remember some discussion about it then - but yes I think you are right, a reminder of at least the basics: theme name/version, moodle version, would definitely be beneficial - or maybe with the new features of Moodle3.1 where I understand sticky posts are coming, it could be a sticky post.

Mary, Gareth? Can either of you remember why/when it was removed and refresh my memory and would you be happy for it to be back? We prompt for it so often in the threads, it would make life much easier if it was there - if nothing else, to point to in those reminders when forum users don't read it

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Re: Should Adaptable issues separated rather than in one big post?

by Mary Evans - Saturday, 30 April 2016, 8:32 PM

Hi Richard,

Its quite a while since the Themes Forum header was changed.

I think it was changed about the time Mirriam Laidlow (AU) was made into a Moderator, and Moodle 2.3 was released. I seem to recall Helen Foster saying that they were wanting to have a more corporate look. That's why we lost some of the links to the Moodle docs. To me these are all over the place and out of date, and not easy to auto link to as they used to be.

As for the message asking for information about the environment they are using...here's a screenshot...

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Re: Should Adaptable issues separated rather than in one big post?

by Mary Evans - Saturday, 30 April 2016, 7:59 PM

Hi Fernando,

Have you started a new discussion here lately? If not then you will not be aware of the message I added there to the Add a discussion form page.

It asks for Moodle version and theme version.

Some people comply with that request others do not.

We are not obliged to answer those who do not supply the information.

Cheers

Mary

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Re: Should Adaptable issues separated rather than in one big post?

by Richard Oelmann - Saturday, 30 April 2016, 8:04 PM

Oops - shows that I didn't pay particular attention last time i started a new thread too!

I knew it was/had been there somewhere!

Thanks for the reminder about where Mary.

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Re: Should Adaptable issues separated rather than in one big post?

by Fernando Acedo - Saturday, 30 April 2016, 9:20 PM

No Mary. I only reply here no open threads.

But I opened a thread and see what you did. That's really good and hope it works.

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Re: Should Adaptable issues separated rather than in one big post?

by Gareth J Barnard - Saturday, 30 April 2016, 11:21 PM

Hi Fernando,

This is really odd because as well as the information at the top of the post form I thought there used to be information at the top of the forum as well - as there is with the Courses and Course formats forum. However, even when this is there I do find it gets missed anyway and I find myself repeating the same request for information as a step in the problem solving process. This just slows things down for the poster as the information is key to deducing the issue and doing something about it. Thus without it the extra step takes longer. I don't know what the solution is, perhaps we need a brainstorm about it.

Cheers,

Gareth

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Re: Should Adaptable issues separated rather than in one big post?

by Gareth J Barnard - Sunday, 1 May 2016, 12:45 AM

P.S. Interestingly, the forum code of conduct: https://moodle.org/mod/page/view.php?id=7080 by which by having a logon we all agree to, has a reference to https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Moodle.org_forums_help with lots of information about posting.

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Re: Should Adaptable issues separated rather than in one big post?

by Fernando Acedo - Sunday, 1 May 2016, 2:19 AM

If users reply an existing post they can't see this message. So not sure if the message location is the best.

As I said in other messages provide support using a forum is complex. The only way is to force the user to enter a clear title with the theme name and use a short form to fill with the versions and any other information needed,

A subforum for the most used themes could be also a good idea and only under developer request. But I like much more the Helen proposal and probably is better. Create a course instead a subforum. Then you can add more tools like a database or a glossary. In this case, the responsible to provide support is the developer and not the mods. Mods only must control (that should be its job) and don't need to reply, except rules broken or move the thread to another forum/course.

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Re: Should Adaptable issues separated rather than in one big post?

by Mary Evans - Sunday, 1 May 2016, 2:33 AM

One of the main things that really gets me mad is that after spending some time finding a sollution, and typing it out in an orderly way to make it easier to grasp for the users benefit. Someone answers after me obviously by email and has not read my post otherwise they would not waste their time.

I don't know how many of you use the email functionality to answer question, but sometimes I think you should try logging into the Themes Forum proper and see who is on and respect that they are most likely answering questions.

By the way I have split this discussion.

Made it a general discussion thread then anyone can have a say!

Cheers

Mary

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Re: Should Adaptable issues separated rather than in one big post?

by Gareth J Barnard - Sunday, 1 May 2016, 2:40 AM

Hi Mary,

I did not know you could eMail replies!

Cheers,

Gareth

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Re: Should Adaptable issues separated rather than in one big post?

by Mary Evans - Sunday, 1 May 2016, 2:56 AM

I suspect you are, essentially, too busy doing this...

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Re: Should Adaptable issues separated rather than in one big post?

by Gareth J Barnard - Sunday, 1 May 2016, 2:38 AM

Hi Fernando,

I disagree with "Mods only must control (that should be its job) and don't need to reply, except rules broken or move the thread to another forum/course." - I am a:

User on my own sites.
Developer - both core and plugin.
Moderator.

Therefore my 'moderator' role is just one of my hats. I don't just see it as a negative thing. It is positive too, we are often the most knowledgeable on the forums we moderate and thus replying is a good thing. We can be contacted via our names if you're uncertain about anything. I don't get remunerated for being a moderator, so its not really a 'job' but a vocation to help and assist members of the Moodle community, 'charity work' for want of a better concept. So when I reply, I reply because I want to.

With "The only way is to force the user to enter a clear title with the theme name and use a short form to fill with the versions and any other information needed" - interesting, but must be optional as not all posts will require that information or the user might be uncertain and need assistance with finding where the information is. Need to be agile and flexible. Also, how would you enforce 'clear title'? Do you have an AI script to analyse the words?

With "If users reply an existing post they can't see this message." - yes that is true, however often that is when it is too late as the information is needed in the first post. With most issues a new post is created for that specific problem / question and thus the information is shown for that workflow scenario.

Kind regards,

Gareth

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Re: Should Adaptable issues separated rather than in one big post?

by Mary Evans - Sunday, 1 May 2016, 2:53 AM

Hi Fernando,

As a moderator I do have authority...

to SPLIT a discussion
to MOVE a discussion
to DELETE a post
to REPORT a user

I see this as a ROLE not a job as I do not consider being a Forum Moderator as work.

I am too crazy to think that!

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Re: Should Adaptable issues separated rather than in one big post?

by Fernando Acedo - Sunday, 1 May 2016, 4:44 AM

Mary, sorry for my words. English is not my native language and sometimes is difficult to explain ideas.

I know is not a job, but is a responsibility to moderate the posts. And it is not mandatory to reply all the questions. I don't think that mods should fix issues developed by others. In fact, i think that only developers could reply the threads created by themselves about its themes. Sometimes is even difficult for me to reproduce the issues.

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Re: Should Adaptable issues separated rather than in one big post?

by Gareth J Barnard - Sunday, 1 May 2016, 5:06 AM

Hi Fernando,

Ordinarily with "I don't think that mods should fix issues developed by others" I would agree with you as professionally I consider that the developer who wrote the code is morally responsible for fixing it, even though with GPLv3 they don't actually have to. However, with software engineering there is often one way of solving a problem and somebody else may come up with a solution that is actually better than you could have done so. Thus as Moodle is a 'learning environment' then lets be positive and let our peers publish their point of view such that we may learn from them if it is a better solution.

Kind regards,

Gareth

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Re: Should Adaptable issues separated rather than in one big post?

by Richard Oelmann - Sunday, 1 May 2016, 2:53 PM

"I don't think that mods should fix issues developed by others. In fact, i think that only developers could reply the threads created by themselves about its themes"

Comes down really to a fundamental question about the role and purpose of the forums:

Is the Moodle forum community a community of practice involved in the open, social constructionist ethos around which Moodle has been built, or is it a series of largely unrelated 'helpdesk'/'support' forums managed by the plugin developers?

For me the forums are the major feature of an open community promoting the , the fact that one of their roles is providing 'technical' support for individual plugins is only a part of what we do. With one of the principles behind that community being "The developers and the users are deliberately forced to mix in the same forums" - not just be there to provide support, but to mix and use the same forums (See https://docs.moodle.org/30/en/Pedagogy#Moodle_in_three_short_paragraphs)

https://docs.moodle.org/30/en/Philosophy

https://docs.moodle.org/30/en/Pedagogy#Social_Constructionism_as_a_Referent

While I can certainly agree that if the role of the forums was entirely that of a support helpdesk for the plugins then changes along the lines suggested would be beneficial, I firmly believe that the role of the forums goes FAR beyond that and is integral to the way Moodle functions as a world wide community, not just as a piece of software and a collection of disparate plugins - it is that, but at its heart it is MORE than that too.

Quite possibly I am viewing this from a very narrow angle, but anyone who knows me will be fully aware that I am a passionate supporter of Moodle as a community, as much (more so) than Moodle as a piece of software. That community has given me so much over the years and I see it as a fundamental strength of the Moodle ecosystem. It needs developing and improving - any community of practice needs that - but it needs to keep those core philosophies at the heart of any changes.

I was going to stay out of the re-hashing of this debate, but felt very strongly about this and the need to keep the core Moodle ethos as central to what we do in the forums. It goes beyond an individual developer providing support for one plugin to the heart of what the Moodle forums and community are all about.

Richard

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Re: Should Adaptable issues separated rather than in one big post?

by Mary Evans - Sunday, 1 May 2016, 10:04 PM

Hi Richard,

Gosh I have not read about Social Constructs in years, more than twenty at least. In fact it is twenty years this month that I had to hand in my dissertation for my Bachelor of Science degree in Business Information Systems. The subject I wrote about was entitled, "Ethical Aspects of the Internet: Cyberethics or Virtual Morality" a mere 10,000 words. The previous Christmas I wrote another missive of 5000 words about the importance of culture in Information Systems Development. This is where the social constructs came into the discussion.

Moodle itself is an Information System, so too are the Moodle forums. However we are seeing vast changes in both Moodle and the forums where attitudes are changing, there is a feeling we need to regroup, think differently, which is hard when you see your old values and norms being challenged.

Anyway at the end of the day, what we do as individuals is up to us. If Fernando wants to manage the Adaptable theme discussion himself, then that is fine by me, which means I don't need to worry myself that someone has not been answered. Also if Fernando wants a Moderator to delete, split or move a post, then we can do that too, can't we? Isn't that what we are here for. If we think otherwise then there in no point in any of us being moderators.

As Moderators it is our duty to keep a watchful eye on things. But we can also do as Helen suggested, that of Adding the theme name to the subject line of the discussion, if relevant, or changing a title so that the discussion header is readable and makes sense and found by search engines.

Anyway, rest assured, because I am not going to advocate change in the way things are done in this forum if that helps, unless Moodle HQ wants us to change the way we work that is?

Sorry for the ramble...

Thanks for listening

Mary L. Evans B.Sc(Hons) UCLan 1996

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Re: Should Adaptable issues separated rather than in one big post?

by Richard Oelmann - Monday, 2 May 2016, 12:04 AM

Complete side track

20 years ago for your BSc, and yet social constructionist theories have been around for so much longer and are still around and thriving today - possibly even stronger than ever with all the Open Education Practice debates going on, where so much revolves around the sharing of not just content, but ideas, tools, practices. Dovetailing as it does with creative commons and GPL licences.

To be honest, despite my 20 years teaching its a theory I had not come across in my PGCE or my career outside Moodle, and yet when I researched it a few years ago when I first started my Masters, i couldn't understand why I didn't know all about it, because its the way my entire teaching career as well as my personal learning and continuing professional development had always gone - that background of sharing content, knowledge, ideas, expertise, support and building my own understanding through that sharing just seems to be natural and 'right' to me.

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Re: Should Adaptable issues separated rather than in one big post?

by Gareth J Barnard - Monday, 2 May 2016, 12:32 AM

To continue the divergence the social constructionist theories are ones I'd not really heard about until Moodle, despite also having a PGCE and seven years teaching experience. What really sticks in my mind though is 'Maslow's hierarchy of needs' with all the needed elements required to achieve self actualisation. The pyramid has now been updated 'as a joke' to have 'wifi' at the bottom, which has a serious side reflecting on the actual needs of society today, that we desire to be connected to the collective group and become lost when we're not.

What really drives me in life is more of the technical aspects as that is where I have slightly higher qualifications (MSc in Computing) and a real love of the subject. Moodle is an outlet for it combining both the social and technical aspects. Nowadays the focus is 'refactoring' as a process of adapting existing components such that a software entity can be progressed without breaking what already works and at the same time not digging a hole of undebugable mess without it.

G - more letters after my full name than there are in it.

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Themes forum discussion re educational theories :)

by Richard Oelmann - Monday, 2 May 2016, 1:07 AM

That 'joke' forms part of my Masters dissertation that got delayed from last year, so am writing now, Gareth - 30 iPads in a class with wifi designed 10 years ago for 1 or 2 teacher laptops!

But perhaps any further discussion of educational theories/open practice should be moved to the Lounge, or the Teaching with Moodle forum, as we are getting further and further off topic here, as interesting as the discussion is. Not sorry to have brought it up, I do feel it was relevant to the discussion in hand at the time

R - plenty of letters, but happy to acknowledge and respect the expertise of anyone, regardless of letters (after all this bleeping Masters is my first official academic qualification in an IT related field since a 30 year old O Level, yet I've been leading ICT in schools and/or working in online learning for over 20 years )

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Re: Themes forum discussion re educational theories :)

by Mary Evans - Monday, 2 May 2016, 1:17 AM

This is OK as this is a general discussion on the themes forum.

This is perhaps what you are missing Richard...a bit of chat time.

Put the kettle on
Lets have a brew.
Might as well chat here
as ther's nowt else to do!

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Re: Themes forum discussion re educational theories :)

by Gareth J Barnard - Monday, 2 May 2016, 1:18 AM

So to bring things back to the subject matter in hand, with all this skill and knowledge, how can it be applied to themes in order to facilitate the actual practice of the theory?

We are all driving along the same motorway in the same direction just with different vehicles for the purpose of the load we are carrying to the common destination. As I see it improving the iterative process that forms a part of improvement in theme issue management here allows us all to drive that bit further. The better we make things, the faster issues will be dealt with and thus the potential for improvement. The clearer the interface with reduced clutter and intuitive workflow the more usable the software becomes. I realised that the theme in this case is only a part of the solution but it is the 'front-of-house' that everybody sees and thus it must be good for the first and lasting impression.

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Re: Themes forum discussion re educational theories :)

by Mary Evans - Monday, 2 May 2016, 2:43 AM

OK...

Well since Information Theory is based on Mathematics we need an algorithm in order to model the problem.

List of variables:

q = question

u = user

m_n = moderators

m₁ = Mary

m₂ = Richard

m₃ = Gareth

T_n = Theme name

M_v = Moodle version

???

Mary

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Re: Themes forum discussion re educational theories :)

by Richard Oelmann - Monday, 2 May 2016, 3:02 AM

Don't forget the developers and the other community members/contributors - maybe part of the solution as well as the problem (that's problem in the mathematical sense I hasten to add!)

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Re: Themes forum discussion re educational theories :)

by Gareth J Barnard - Monday, 2 May 2016, 3:08 AM

And...

Theme version (Tv).

Plus could be a sigma iteration with n to infinity where n is post replies.

But given the complexities and the human element then I believe that the solution lies in 'Bistro Mathematics'.

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Re: Themes forum discussion re educational theories :)

by Mary Evans - Monday, 2 May 2016, 3:27 AM

r = replies to post

r^e+1 = replies by email

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Themes

THEMES FORUM GENERAL DISCUSSION

THEMES FORUM GENERAL DISCUSSION

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Themes forum discussion re educational theories :)

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