This is a very interesting article with several statements:
http://www.learningcircuits.org/2005/oct2005/adkins.htm.
Ralf
Terrific article. These things really leaped out at me:
From David Grebow, Chief Learning Officer of Comcourse
Yes, Open Source LMS platforms are taking the innovative lead. No, theyre not in the lead as products because theres more to taking the innovative lead than just innovation.
I consistently hear three major issues that Open Source needs to overcome in order to really take the lead and beat their proprietary competitors.
First issue: a case of really bad GUI.
Second issue: documentation is usually spotty, and formal training programs are no better
Third issue:endless feature creep, and this time not at the request of the Customer
As I think about the top ten Moodle myths discussion, and my own struggles to determine if Moodle is an appropriate replacement for a proprietary solution (and all the transition work that entails), these things are resonating with me.
I don't think Moodle has a really bad GUI, but I can think of a few things that could be improved (and someone is probably working on them as we speak!) The newest themes are helpful, especially now that we have .css code that allows for much personal customization and theme driven graphics/iconsets. One thing I would like to see and/or help with is a really good discussion on where the blocks should be placed and which ones should be standard in basic types of courses (instructional, informational, social, etc.). There should be some science behind that, and it matters to students and instructors alike.
I do agree that the documentation is "somewhat spotty". We have a great book, but it is for 1.4. We have contributed tutorials/help documentation, but we all put in details that are particular to our own institution, so the documentation is not out-of-the-box generic. I don't have time to create everything from scratch, but my users probably think it odd when the tutorials I provide for them have references to other schools! (They don't read the preface. In fact, I don't think they read the resource materials much! Nobody ever read the Proprietary LMS help either, for that matter. . .) If I have overlooked some other great resources, then I apologize! But if they are even a bit hard to find, what are people going to do that never make an account on moodle.org? I will say that the built-in help screens are wonderful, and totally superior to anything we have available in our current proprietary LMS.
Moodle does have endless feature creep from 100 different directions (which is, to me, more of a strength than a weakness). However, feature creep makes it hard to keep up the documentation and could certainly impact the consistency of your GUI. I am blessed with a good sysadmin that says "NO" to me when I want to try out new things on the production server! And thank you all for creating Moodle4Windows, because I can experiment to my heart's content on my personal instance of moodle. So you can control a lot of feature creep--just be judicious and careful about what and when you install new blocks/features. I think developers try to be careful about preserving the "look and feel" of moodle when they create new blocks, but it is the nature of Moodle to allow for customization! So you will always be encountering problems in that area because most of us do change things right away--language files, themes, blocks, etc. We can't help ourselves!
For IT departments that are already overloaded, and schools with little or no faculty tech support, seriously looking at moving to Moodle from or instead of a commercial product is a risk. Because it seems overwhelming. Because of the 10 moodle myths. Because it takes one (or more) really articulate and knowledgeable spokesperson(s) to encourage the critical number of people to believe 1) we can do this and 2) we should do this and 3) here is the reason why.
atw
From David Grebow, Chief Learning Officer of Comcourse
Yes, Open Source LMS platforms are taking the innovative lead. No, theyre not in the lead as products because theres more to taking the innovative lead than just innovation.
I consistently hear three major issues that Open Source needs to overcome in order to really take the lead and beat their proprietary competitors.
First issue: a case of really bad GUI.
Second issue: documentation is usually spotty, and formal training programs are no better
Third issue:endless feature creep, and this time not at the request of the Customer
As I think about the top ten Moodle myths discussion, and my own struggles to determine if Moodle is an appropriate replacement for a proprietary solution (and all the transition work that entails), these things are resonating with me.
I don't think Moodle has a really bad GUI, but I can think of a few things that could be improved (and someone is probably working on them as we speak!) The newest themes are helpful, especially now that we have .css code that allows for much personal customization and theme driven graphics/iconsets. One thing I would like to see and/or help with is a really good discussion on where the blocks should be placed and which ones should be standard in basic types of courses (instructional, informational, social, etc.). There should be some science behind that, and it matters to students and instructors alike.
I do agree that the documentation is "somewhat spotty". We have a great book, but it is for 1.4. We have contributed tutorials/help documentation, but we all put in details that are particular to our own institution, so the documentation is not out-of-the-box generic. I don't have time to create everything from scratch, but my users probably think it odd when the tutorials I provide for them have references to other schools! (They don't read the preface. In fact, I don't think they read the resource materials much! Nobody ever read the Proprietary LMS help either, for that matter. . .) If I have overlooked some other great resources, then I apologize! But if they are even a bit hard to find, what are people going to do that never make an account on moodle.org? I will say that the built-in help screens are wonderful, and totally superior to anything we have available in our current proprietary LMS.
Moodle does have endless feature creep from 100 different directions (which is, to me, more of a strength than a weakness). However, feature creep makes it hard to keep up the documentation and could certainly impact the consistency of your GUI. I am blessed with a good sysadmin that says "NO" to me when I want to try out new things on the production server! And thank you all for creating Moodle4Windows, because I can experiment to my heart's content on my personal instance of moodle. So you can control a lot of feature creep--just be judicious and careful about what and when you install new blocks/features. I think developers try to be careful about preserving the "look and feel" of moodle when they create new blocks, but it is the nature of Moodle to allow for customization! So you will always be encountering problems in that area because most of us do change things right away--language files, themes, blocks, etc. We can't help ourselves!
For IT departments that are already overloaded, and schools with little or no faculty tech support, seriously looking at moving to Moodle from or instead of a commercial product is a risk. Because it seems overwhelming. Because of the 10 moodle myths. Because it takes one (or more) really articulate and knowledgeable spokesperson(s) to encourage the critical number of people to believe 1) we can do this and 2) we should do this and 3) here is the reason why.
atw
I'm very familiar with this point of view and in fact I agree with much of it.
I have a number of things planned to improve documentation and organisation in Moodle and Moodle.org and now things are moving better with Moodle.com you should start seeing this stuff soon!
I have a number of things planned to improve documentation and organisation in Moodle and Moodle.org and now things are moving better with Moodle.com you should start seeing this stuff soon!
I'm still getting alot of complaints about the interface:
We're converting alot of BB courses now, and it's becoming more plain that horrible (from a research based pedagogy) course design BB encourages: dump a ton of office files in to the course and then give massive tests on them. I call it the 'data dump' course format.
- No persistant left menu. Floaters are cool tools fun for programmers, not so good for users (too confusing, doesn't stay in the same place). Perhaps this will help.
- Icons are too small, many older teachers have trouble seeing them. I've been wondering about an 'edit, move, copy, delete' drop down rather than the tiny little edit icons? One place I'd like to see a drop down
.
- Too busy, too many things on screen at once. Our 'Control Panel' reduces the need for a number of admin blocks (Administration, People, etc.) and reduces the need for new features to be added by yet another block (links to blocks can be added in the control panel rather than on the course screen).
- No easy way to copy activities, have to make 20 assignments with twenty individual set-ups rather than just being able to set up a template assignement and copy it. Joan Codina's 'copy' feature looks interesting as a quick, simple, fix for this, long run maybe something more like Audun's layout editor.
- Can't enter/edit grades directly in the gradebook. The work being done by Linux box/Luther College and Rob Barreca (login teacher/teacher) are looking very nice as a fix for this.
- Pop-up happy assignment module, ok for editing online assignments, horrible for offline and upload file. I've said enough about this elsewhere.
We're converting alot of BB courses now, and it's becoming more plain that horrible (from a research based pedagogy) course design BB encourages: dump a ton of office files in to the course and then give massive tests on them. I call it the 'data dump' course format.
Agreed! The copy/paste activities and delete whole topics is incredibly important. Continued evolution of the gradebook is also important. The Humbolt control panel is great, and we have slated that for inclusion our semester upgrade. I am working with Adun's layout editor as well, but with a BB conversion half the boxes are blank (I think it shows the titles of the resources, but not the labels). We have BB 5.5, and when you convert, large numbers of documents land in a single topic (one topic for all course documents, for example). I plan to go through and edit those before the instructors see them or they will take one look and say "No way! Moodle messed up my course!". (Already happened once. The instructor started out feeling very positive about Moodle, but once the person saw the course conversion results, the person never logged into Moodle again.)
From a migration standpoint, course conversion tools are a must. That is something Moodle has on the other systems! It may not be perfect, but it is at least present!
So usability is a fourth criteria. I think these things might not be GUI as much as basic features. But it all works together.
From a migration standpoint, course conversion tools are a must. That is something Moodle has on the other systems! It may not be perfect, but it is at least present!
So usability is a fourth criteria. I think these things might not be GUI as much as basic features. But it all works together.
ATW said "From a migration standpoint, course conversion tools are a must. That is something Moodle has on the other systems! It may not be perfect, but it is at least present!"
I could not agree more. Moodle has the enormous advantage from teacher perspective that courses can be backed up by teacher not just admin. Same teachers who appreciate this once in Moodle will be put off if their work on a previous VLE cannot be converted easily to Moodle (especially since the limitations of Blacboard, etc mean that export of data from BB/WebCT must be done by administrator).
Moodle must appeal to all the relevant user groups admin, student, teachers, management. Not all installations will have these roles rolled into one.
"Moodle has the enormous advantage from teacher perspective that courses can be backed up by teacher not just admin. Same teachers who appreciate this once in Moodle will be put off if their work on a previous VLE cannot be converted easily to Moodle (especially since the limitations of Blacboard, etc mean that export of data from BB/WebCT must be done by administrator)."
---------------------
We are using Bb 6.3 on our campus. Teachers can back-up courses...they can also import the contents (complete or pick and choose) from any other of their courses...current or previous. Again, I don't want to give the impression I'm on "their side" because I'm not....just want to make sure the facts are clear. If you can't export Bb courses it may be that you have an earlier version or your admin doesn't allow it.
Sorry, I'm getting off topic, but this has caught my interest and Steve, perhaps you can answer my question.
Is it possible to set up Black Board on your laptop and develop off-line, restoring new materials to the course when they're finished?
Is it possible to set up Black Board on your laptop and develop off-line, restoring new materials to the course when they're finished?
Is it possible to set up Black Board on your laptop and develop off-line, restoring new materials to the course when they're finished?
No...not to my knowledge.
Steve
Perhaps that's one more "featureless feature" of an open source/GPL LMS.
I find the flexibility of having an off-line tool and the possibilies for rapid, responsive and collaborative development, as well as debugging and refinement indispensible.
I find the flexibility of having an off-line tool and the possibilies for rapid, responsive and collaborative development, as well as debugging and refinement indispensible.
I agree entirely. The fact that one can download Moodle freely and install it with a few clicks onto ones laptop is a massive bonus.
I agree...offline capability is great. But installing separate, unconnected instance of Moodle on a local machine is not what I would call "viable" offline capabilities. Now, if I could install Moodle on my local computer and press a "Synchronize" button to have my local copy sync with the server, then that would be something to brag about.
I did play around with installing Moodle and XAMPP about six months ago. I tried to use it to develop material offline and upload it to a course...it's not as easy or clean as it sounds...especially when you restore over the top of an existing course. I haven't tried this since early spring, so maybe this has been improved.
I still have Moodle and XAMPP on a 1meg zip drive and it has been great for testing, but I haven't found it a useful tool for offline interaction with an active course. There is no way I would download my current (active) courses, work on them on a local machine, and then restore that to my active course.
I doubt there are more than a select hand-full of people who actually use this or even know it exist.
Steve
I use my local Moodle instance a lot for testing new blocks and themes, but I am NOT going to restore on top of a live course. I don't have the nerve for that! But I think it will be fabulous to use over the breaks between semesters. I also think that I will use Adun's layout editor to do major edits of BB converted courses on my local install and when we have them whipped into some decent shapes, then I will restore to the production server. That way I can improve things a good deal for new moodle instructors.
This is actually a great way to start people using moodle.
We have compared courses that were developed on-line and off-line. Both quality and quantity were significantly better with offline development.
In the end I suppose it represents a significant paradigm shift that impacts the course development and continuous improvement models. With Moodle its good to see the learning doesn't have to be limited by liscencing.
We have compared courses that were developed on-line and off-line. Both quality and quantity were significantly better with offline development.
In the end I suppose it represents a significant paradigm shift that impacts the course development and continuous improvement models. With Moodle its good to see the learning doesn't have to be limited by liscencing.
Steve,
I came across your post while going through the forum. We are in the process of freezing on an LMS and I find that this offline work capability is a rather critical requirement for us. I am toying with ATutor vs Moodle. ATutor has a good offline work module. Is there any equivalent in Moodle. Or shall I say, can it be emulated to some extent in any way. As you have pointed out, an offline instance of Moodle is not what I have in mind.
kmnair
No...not to my knowledge. I'm not sure what ATutor offers by way of off-line capabilities...it has been a year or so since I took a look at it, but I believe the first LMS that incorporates true offline functionality is going to have a huge advantage over all others.
I taught for the University of Phoenix online campus in the mid and late 90s and their online delivery system was very simple...Outlook Express Newsgroups. I can remember teaching 4 to 5 online classes at any given time and it was normal to have 500/600 new student posts each day when logging into my classes. I can't tell you how nice it was to be able to login, press the synchronize button, go about my business, then come back and have all those posts download to my laptop. Many times I found myself sitting in the passenger seat of a car or taxi, in an airport or on a plane, etc., working on my classes without a connection. Then once I connected all I had to do was log in and press synchronize...all my stuff was synced and the new stuff was downloaded.
Of course, relying exclusively on newsgroups limits what one can do in an online environment, but imagine having that kind of freedom and flexibility with a full-blown LMS. I don't think any LMS has that capability at the moment, but that's the future, in my opinion, and the first one there is going to leave the others behind.
Steve
I regularly use EASYPHP moodle and then upload backups to merge with my online courses.
The ability to synchronise would be great though.
I guess it could come from advances in the backup and restore functionality. Eloy?!
Tim
The ability to synchronise would be great though.
I guess it could come from advances in the backup and restore functionality. Eloy?!
Tim
What is the status of replying to forums via email in Moodle? That sounds like what Steve is describing. This is listed as coming for 1.6 on the future page. Is it happening?
That would be a nice feature, but it's not exactly what I was trying to describe. With true offline capability, you would have a local install of Moodle on your computer(s) hard drive. You could open it and work on it whether or not you were connected online, but when you do connect, your computer synchronizes with the server. Very similar to what happens when you sync a Palm with Outlook.
I realize that many forward thinking people are looking to the future when everyone will be "constantly connected", but that day is far in the future...I still have students with no phone lines running to their homes. Being about the turn on your computer and work offline with your web-based applications (like Moodle) will give that application a huge advantage.
I understand that this sounds easy, but I also understand doing it would be quite difficult....if it were easy, everyone would be doing it
Steve
I understand that this sounds easy, but I also understand doing it would be quite difficult
Seems to me what would be really difficult is doing it securely, you'd need to keep students from hacking assignment submit times, quiz answers, etc. on their local machines. Quite difficult, and probably a constant 'arms race' between student hackers and LMS programmers. So allowing offline work would be one thing, and it seems to me handled by upload assignemnt types & email to forum, however basing assessment on a timed test done offline would be pretty dicey, IMO.
It is a bit different from things like outlook sync. in this way, as you aren't being 'graded' (hopefully!) on when you 'sent' the email, but on when the email was received.
When the students submit their work to a remote server, security of the data is much easier to ensure.
Downloading content for reading/viewing and even interacting with offline should be relatively easy, on the other hand, so long as assessment is not dependent on what the student does with the download.
As an aside, it is pretty interesting to note in the debate over LMS features that Phoenix is quite sucessful (enrollment wise) in simply using Outlook for their "LMS''.
Seems to me what would be really difficult is doing it securely, you'd need to keep students from hacking assignment submit times, quiz answers, etc. on their local machines. Quite difficult, and probably a constant 'arms race' between student hackers and LMS programmers. So allowing offline work would be one thing, and it seems to me handled by upload assignemnt types & email to forum, however basing assessment on a timed test done offline would be pretty dicey, IMO.
It is a bit different from things like outlook sync. in this way, as you aren't being 'graded' (hopefully!) on when you 'sent' the email, but on when the email was received.
When the students submit their work to a remote server, security of the data is much easier to ensure.
Downloading content for reading/viewing and even interacting with offline should be relatively easy, on the other hand, so long as assessment is not dependent on what the student does with the download.
As an aside, it is pretty interesting to note in the debate over LMS features that Phoenix is quite sucessful (enrollment wise) in simply using Outlook for their "LMS''
"As an aside, it is pretty interesting to note in the debate over LMS features that Phoenix is quite successful (enrollment wise) in simply using Outlook for their "LMS''"
That's true...it is a living, very successful example of the KISS principle in practice
Steve
Would it be so difficult to implement some kind of function that checks the date and time when a quiz or any other form of assessment has actually been submited ("synchronized") and then compares this information with the internal information of the quiz (the submission time that hacker-students could manage to fake)?
To me, the huge advantages of being able to work with Moodle off-line far outweigh possible cheating problems. We should bear in mind that most Moodle users are not in places like the US where it looks like access to the net is pretty much universal (in places like Philadelphia you will soon be able to Moodle while sitting on a picnic table in Fairmont Park). One of the biggest problems I'm having in extending the use of Moodle in my university is that students complain that they do not have sufficient access time to be able to work with Moodle. Access to the net in the university is difficult since computer rooms are always full and then they do not have internet connection at home. And this is in Spain, which is supposed to be a developed country (although, as far as telecommunications go, we are definitely underdeveloped with respect to the US and to most European countries). Being able to work off-line would be a huge improvement.
Josep M.
To me, the huge advantages of being able to work with Moodle off-line far outweigh possible cheating problems. We should bear in mind that most Moodle users are not in places like the US where it looks like access to the net is pretty much universal (in places like Philadelphia you will soon be able to Moodle while sitting on a picnic table in Fairmont Park
). One of the biggest problems I'm having in extending the use of Moodle in my university is that students complain that they do not have sufficient access time to be able to work with Moodle. Access to the net in the university is difficult since computer rooms are always full and then they do not have internet connection at home. And this is in Spain, which is supposed to be a developed country (although, as far as telecommunications go, we are definitely underdeveloped with respect to the US and to most European countries). Being able to work off-line would be a huge improvement. Josep M.
Josep-You raise an interesting point. I am going to be using quizzes for assignments for a course I will be teaching, simply because the quiz module offered the functionality I needed. Cheating is not an issue. I would assume a student using dialup could open all the pages of a quiz on their computer, go offline, do the work, and then go back online to submit it, at least for most aspects of my assignments. But is there any security features built into Moodle that would notice their different ip address and prevent them from doing this?
In reply to Josep M. Fontana
Offline Moodle/synchronization: Wake-Up Call: Open Source LMS
by A. T. Wyatt -
Dear Josep:
I would love this. Internet access is generally good in the US, but in rural areas it is not NEARLY as accessible. Off-line Moodle use will still be a problem for students who do not own computers, but I have a number of students who own computers but have very slow and irratic internet access.
When you speak of off-line moodle use, I am assuming that you are talking about some variety of the local instance of moodle with easyPhP or something like that? Or are you talking about just static resources? Perhaps you could start with the easier of two--static resources, surely, and then move up to the activities? It seems like it would be difficult to implement anything to do with email based transactions. I have never figured out how to do cron, aspell, or any of the php-related things on my personal moodle, so I wouldn't think that students could do that either.
I would be very interested in seeing a list of the types of things you envision doing on a synchronized setup.
Thanks,
atw
I would love this. Internet access is generally good in the US, but in rural areas it is not NEARLY as accessible. Off-line Moodle use will still be a problem for students who do not own computers, but I have a number of students who own computers but have very slow and irratic internet access.
When you speak of off-line moodle use, I am assuming that you are talking about some variety of the local instance of moodle with easyPhP or something like that? Or are you talking about just static resources? Perhaps you could start with the easier of two--static resources, surely, and then move up to the activities? It seems like it would be difficult to implement anything to do with email based transactions. I have never figured out how to do cron, aspell, or any of the php-related things on my personal moodle, so I wouldn't think that students could do that either.
I would be very interested in seeing a list of the types of things you envision doing on a synchronized setup.
Thanks,
atw
Well, I'm not the person you should really be addressing to answer these questions. What I said were simply my wishes, my suggestion for whoever might be in a position to implement this.
I'm not a developer and I don't really know whether an off-line mode would require a whole local installation of moodle or it could be done in a much simpler way. I would think it is not necessary. For the forums, for instance, one might implement something similar to an e-mail client connected or associated in some way to an RSS aggregator. So when you have access to the net, you download the postings from the forums you are subscribed to, then read them and respond to them when you are off-line. When you go on-line again, your contributions get uploaded and integrated in the forums of the given Moodle course.
I have no idea how this could be done for a quiz. As Nicole, I had also dreamed about being able to provide for a way to do quizzes off-line and then upload them to Moodle. Again, my feeling is that this should be possible without having to install Moodle in your computer.
What we would need is some sort of Moodle client installed in the local computer rather than having a whole Moodle server, which is what the local instance of moodle with easyPhP you mention is.
Now, we just need one of the three following things to make this dream come true: a) somebody who is a really good developer and is really altruistic to be able to build this in his/her free time (rather unlikely), b) somebody who might not be a developer but who has a lot of money and wants to fund a really good developer to do this or c) one of these big and rich institutions that are adopting Moodle and decides that the off-line functionality is something they need (that is also unlikely because these institutions and their students tend to have the problem of broadband access to internet pretty much solved).
So, even if Negroponte manages to roll out those wonderful $100 laptops, use of Moodle by the kids that manage to get a hand on one of them will still be rather limited since I really doubt that access to the net will be possible and easy any time soon in most of the places where they live. If quite a few of my students have a hard time being connected, I imagine it will be much worse for people who are eligible for the $100 laptops.
I'm afraid, we will have to keep on dreaming.
Josep M.
I'm not a developer and I don't really know whether an off-line mode would require a whole local installation of moodle or it could be done in a much simpler way. I would think it is not necessary. For the forums, for instance, one might implement something similar to an e-mail client connected or associated in some way to an RSS aggregator. So when you have access to the net, you download the postings from the forums you are subscribed to, then read them and respond to them when you are off-line. When you go on-line again, your contributions get uploaded and integrated in the forums of the given Moodle course.
I have no idea how this could be done for a quiz. As Nicole, I had also dreamed about being able to provide for a way to do quizzes off-line and then upload them to Moodle. Again, my feeling is that this should be possible without having to install Moodle in your computer.
What we would need is some sort of Moodle client installed in the local computer rather than having a whole Moodle server, which is what the local instance of moodle with easyPhP you mention is.
Now, we just need one of the three following things to make this dream come true: a) somebody who is a really good developer and is really altruistic to be able to build this in his/her free time (rather unlikely), b) somebody who might not be a developer but who has a lot of money and wants to fund a really good developer to do this or c) one of these big and rich institutions that are adopting Moodle and decides that the off-line functionality is something they need (that is also unlikely because these institutions and their students tend to have the problem of broadband access to internet pretty much solved).
So, even if Negroponte manages to roll out those wonderful $100 laptops, use of Moodle by the kids that manage to get a hand on one of them will still be rather limited since I really doubt that access to the net will be possible and easy any time soon in most of the places where they live. If quite a few of my students have a hard time being connected, I imagine it will be much worse for people who are eligible for the $100 laptops.
I'm afraid, we will have to keep on dreaming.
Josep M.
As a devoted pda user, I am very much sold on the idea of synchronization as a way of bridging the gap between our current situation and eventual always-on/always-fast connections. In fact, this came up in a discussion between myself and Graham Davies on the displacement of CDs by the internet in the following forum:
http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=33649
Develop server-desktop synchronisation and develop a proper mobile interface for moodle -- leading to pda synchronisation -- and I would certainly be very happy!
Merry Christmas all!
Matthew.
http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=33649
Develop server-desktop synchronisation and develop a proper mobile interface for moodle -- leading to pda synchronisation -- and I would certainly be very happy!
Merry Christmas all!
Matthew.
Just to add a couple more:
- Groups. Being familiar with the way groups function in BB and the way they function in Moodle, I would say Moodle groups would be much better if they were more like groups in BB. Just from casual observation here in these forums, I would say the groups feature is the most complicated feature in Moodle...my own experience supports that observation as well.
- Discussion forums in Moodle need to work more like email threads in Outlook...and dare I say...discussion threads in BB. Once you get used to easily seeing read and unread messages by them being bold/unbold, you are able to mark mass or individual messages as read/unread easily, you are able to hide read messages easily, you are able to sort messages by sender, you are able to "collect" a group of messages to view in a single screen--like all the unread messages since your last visit--then it is difficult to give up that functionality.
- Having a wiki as a standard activity in Moodle and then using MediaWiki for moodle documentation is ironic to say the least. I would say that sends a very mixed message about the true functionality of Moodle as a collaborative tool. MediaWiki is a nice piece of software, but using it for moodle documentation would be like using phpBB for the moodle.org discussion forums. I never really thought about this until I was questioned about it by one of my students.
Steve
Mike,
I take advantage of the fact that you mention the work of Joan Codina to make an announcement in this forum (thinking that maybe there are many people here who don't hang out in the developers forum). We now have the possibility of having a block/toolbar that is visible from anywhere in the course and can stay put or float as you scroll through your pages. We want to use it with the functionality that would typically belong to a block in order to work with language data from any resource or module within a course, but it could be arguably put to use as an alternative menu or navigation bar. The official announcement with a link to download the source code is in this thread in the developer's forum.
Josep M.
I take advantage of the fact that you mention the work of Joan Codina to make an announcement in this forum (thinking that maybe there are many people here who don't hang out in the developers forum). We now have the possibility of having a block/toolbar that is visible from anywhere in the course and can stay put or float as you scroll through your pages. We want to use it with the functionality that would typically belong to a block in order to work with language data from any resource or module within a course, but it could be arguably put to use as an alternative menu or navigation bar. The official announcement with a link to download the source code is in this thread in the developer's forum.
Josep M.
They are perfectly within their rights to offer the services they are offering, but what I find deceptive is their claims that they developed this software all by themselves. Whether it is open source or any other source, it seems to me to be ethical to give credit where credit is due. Who's to say that admitting that they have Moodle as their core won't help their business, rather than harm it?
Just a question of clarification:
A.T. mentions a Moodle book based on version 1.4. I wonder if you can profice the full citation.
I have the Jason Cole book "Using Moodle" that O'Reilly put out July 2005. But I don't see any reference to the version of Moodle it is based on and all the screen shots pretty much match the real-world Moodles I've been looking at.
In the author bio it does say Jason "...contributed to discussions regarding a document management system and object model for Version 2.0."
I just figured that was a reference to the road map, however. Unless there really is a version 2.0 lurking out there somewhere.
Anybody want to clarify my confusion?
claude
Claude,
Jason's book is the only published book in print, this is the reference here. Using Moodle is an excellent reference for Moodle 1.4 and starts to become dated with features that appear with version 1.4.5 and much more with 1.5 and higher. Such is the bane of writing documentation for open source; things change quickly. When the bio was written (sometime in 2004) there was work going on in CVS on a Moodle document mangement system. The dms folder is still in the contrib directory at CVS, but has been put aside by John Papaioannou who was leading development. Moodle will soon have a robust DMS for those that need it. Harvest Road, creators of the commercial Hive DMS, has been at work recently to provide an integrated solution for Moodle. Rumor has it this will be available well before Moodle 2.0. I would imagine that any day now there will be a mention of it on their web site.
Jason's book is the only published book in print, this is the reference here. Using Moodle is an excellent reference for Moodle 1.4 and starts to become dated with features that appear with version 1.4.5 and much more with 1.5 and higher. Such is the bane of writing documentation for open source; things change quickly. When the bio was written (sometime in 2004) there was work going on in CVS on a Moodle document mangement system. The dms folder is still in the contrib directory at CVS, but has been put aside by John Papaioannou who was leading development. Moodle will soon have a robust DMS for those that need it. Harvest Road, creators of the commercial Hive DMS, has been at work recently to provide an integrated solution for Moodle. Rumor has it this will be available well before Moodle 2.0. I would imagine that any day now there will be a mention of it on their web site.
I was speaking about the O'Reilly book. I have the draft copy, downloaded from the Moodle documentation area in June, before the book went to print in July. My copy has screen shots for moodle that look like 1.4.x. Maybe it was all updated before going to print?
atw
atw
"Proprietary
systems literally live and die by being part of a user feedback loop.
If the GUI gets in the way and disables the learning process, then its
toast. Open Source developers, it seems, cannot see beyond their code."
-- David Grebow, Chief Learning Officer of Comcourse
I wonder what the weather is like on this guy's planet? The first school I taught at used BB and it was anything but easy to use. We had two 6 hour training sessions and at least 98% of the teachers in my building never used it again. Other commercial software can be worse. Everyone knows they do not "live and die" by their products working correctly.... can anyone say Windows 95, 98, and lets not forget.... ME.
"....documentation is usually spotty, and formal training programs are no better. Open Source LMS projects tend to have a major problem with providing decent documentationif you can find it in the first place."
-- David Grebow, Chief Learning Officer of Comcourse
Maybe he hasn't seen Moodle. I believe we have good documentation, including all the onscreen help in Moodle, these forums, and a whole SITE full of helpful docs.
This guy goes on to some more OS Myths and/or FUD. I wonder if he really believes this, or if it is the Party line?
The WebCT guy mentioned the millions in R&D they, and other commercial products, spend every year which is in "multiples much larger than any current Open Source funded initiative." Which shows that money is not everything. What was the figure someone determined when you convert all the hours of work put into Moodle into a dollar amount?
Interesting article.
Jeff
-- David Grebow, Chief Learning Officer of Comcourse
I wonder what the weather is like on this guy's planet? The first school I taught at used BB and it was anything but easy to use. We had two 6 hour training sessions and at least 98% of the teachers in my building never used it again. Other commercial software can be worse. Everyone knows they do not "live and die" by their products working correctly.... can anyone say Windows 95, 98, and lets not forget.... ME.
"....documentation is usually spotty, and formal training programs are no better. Open Source LMS projects tend to have a major problem with providing decent documentationif you can find it in the first place."
-- David Grebow, Chief Learning Officer of Comcourse
Maybe he hasn't seen Moodle. I believe we have good documentation, including all the onscreen help in Moodle, these forums, and a whole SITE full of helpful docs.
This guy goes on to some more OS Myths and/or FUD. I wonder if he really believes this, or if it is the Party line?
The WebCT guy mentioned the millions in R&D they, and other commercial products, spend every year which is in "multiples much larger than any current Open Source funded initiative." Which shows that money is not everything. What was the figure someone determined when you convert all the hours of work put into Moodle into a dollar amount?
Interesting article.
Jeff
"Proprietary
systems literally live and die by being part of a user feedback loop."
Au contraire, this is precisely the strength of Moodle compared to both commercial systems and other open source sysystems. Moodle has the tightest feedback loop between its users and its developers among them all. For one thing, there is a considerable overlap between the two groups. For another, the moodle.org web site provides a superb communication channel betweeen the two groups.
Au contraire, this is precisely the strength of Moodle compared to both commercial systems and other open source sysystems. Moodle has the tightest feedback loop between its users and its developers among them all. For one thing, there is a considerable overlap between the two groups. For another, the moodle.org web site provides a superb communication channel betweeen the two groups.
I found this to be interesting....
Comcourse uses Moodle commercially. http://www.comcourse.com/demo/
Their website does not call it Moodle though, they call it "The Comcourse Bridge Learning Management System" http://www.comcourse.com/serv_1.html
There is no mention of Moodle anywhere on their site.
They even say it is "User-Friendly."
Yet, David Grebow, their Chief Learning Office, had concerns over the GUI.
Deception in the corporate world... I am shocked.
Jeff
Comcourse uses Moodle commercially. http://www.comcourse.com/demo/
Their website does not call it Moodle though, they call it "The Comcourse Bridge Learning Management System" http://www.comcourse.com/serv_1.html
There is no mention of Moodle anywhere on their site.
They even say it is "User-Friendly."
Yet, David Grebow, their Chief Learning Office, had concerns over the GUI.
Deception in the corporate world... I am shocked.
Jeff
Saw the Comcourse demo and site. It is Moodle..anyone can make out. Extremely brazen strategy the company's on. I'm sure they think they'll get away with this !!!
Well, I have to say that I like their theme. Himmat, can you do one of those?
atw
atw
Yes, easily A.T.. Very nice theme. We're coming up soon with a pay-for MoodleThemes portal where you will likely find better stuff!!
Take a look at this press release from Comcourse - revolutionary breakthrough: LMS for Mac and Windows.
Edit: and here's another press release
Edit: and here's another press release
James Chellis, CEO, said We have spent two years developing a next-generation fully-hosted LMS, testing and proving it."
They seem to be even more blatant than this other outfit, previously discussed.
At least that other bunch renamed the Moodle script and directory names. Comcourse seems to have a more or less plain vanilla Moodle installation.
At least that other bunch renamed the Moodle script and directory names. Comcourse seems to have a more or less plain vanilla Moodle installation.
...and check out that favicon on the demo course. Is that the less-than-well-known M of coMcourse (???? I made that up) or the better-known M of Moodle?
How can they sleep at night?
How can they sleep at night?
Perhaps they should change their name to CoN-course.
See anything familiar in the source code on their demo login page?
Is anyone going public with this? Perhaps it would be good to show how commercial vendors have come up with this "unique" open source business model. My business partners at mancomm.ca use Moodle, elgg and other OS platforms and make no bones about it. We even give applications (which we have paid to develop for elgg) back to the OS community. Therefore, I wouldn't have any problems blogging about this in a more public forum.
The three ways businesses "resell" products are called:
Branded
Co-Branded
Private Labeled
Branded would be illustrated by a site like remote-learner.net that advertises that it is providing Moodle hosting and services.
Co-Branded would be if Remote Learner gave equal weight to both the Remote Learner brand and the Moodle brand.
Private Labeled is illustrated by the use of Moodle by Comcourse wherein they brand it with their own brand. (Provided those of you accusing Comcorse of deception are correct about Moodle hiding under that login page. But I don't see anything there that convinces me it has to be Moodle they are using). Private labeling is used all the time in the real world. I remember when I first encountered it back in the 80s. I bought a Radio Shack Model 100 which I later found out was manufactured by Kyocera. And, recently, we all found out that a Chinese firm had been making most of IBM's computers. Hundreds of everyday things you buy and use are branded by a company other than the one that actually "manufactured" or "authored" the product.
Branded, Co-Branded, and Private Labeling are all established legitimate ways of reselling a product and do not constitute deception. And private labeling does not have to be in conflict with the Moodle/GNU license if the private labler abides by the license.
Beyond the appearance of private lableing on Comcourse's part, is there any evidence that they are violating the Moodle/GNU license?
If not, then it may be unfair to imply that they are being deceptive.
I think you have to get inside the LMS to see whether they have posted the Moodle credit anywhere in there. When I logged in, I couldn't see any real features beyond news and the look and feel was more like phpBB than Moodle. So I'm not sure why folks are assuming this is Moodle.
Am I missing something?
claude
why folks are assuming this is Moodle.
Their screenshots.
http://www.comcourse.com/i9.html
http://www.comcourse.com/i10.html
There isn't anything in the Moodle license that prevents such private labeling (so long as they are only selling services and not code).
IMO whether this is 'wrong' or not in an ethical sense would relate to whether they are contributing code and/or treasure back to the community, or whether they are just taking a free ride.
They may just not want to get into debates about software license x vs. license y or whether there are too many oo's in the name.
Their screenshots
http://www.comcourse.com/i9.html
http://www.comcourse.com/i10.html
There isn't anything in the Moodle license that prevents such private labeling (so long as they are only selling services and not code).
IMO whether this is 'wrong' or not in an ethical sense would relate to whether they are contributing code and/or treasure back to the community, or whether they are just taking a free ride.
They may just not want to get into debates about software license x vs. license y or whether there are too many oo's in the name.
I could easily do screen 9 with Mambo or PostNuke, but I will admit Screen 10 looks like Moodle.
But I agree with Michael that the biggest proof of their integrity will be the contribution (or lack of) that they make to the community.
The cookie that is set in their demo is a Moodle cookie.
There is another Easter Egg there that would be a dead giveaway that it is a Moodle installation.
If they are really trying to cover up that it is Moodle, they are really doing an amatuerish job of it.
There is another Easter Egg there that would be a dead giveaway that it is a Moodle installation.
If they are really trying to cover up that it is Moodle, they are really doing an amatuerish job of it.
"There isn't anything in the Moodle license that prevents such private labeling (so long as they are only selling services and not code)."
It seems to be the opinion of a lot of people here that they can sell the code as well...according to several responses in the thread below, they are not doing anything wrong...legally or ethically 
.
http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=32737
Steve
I strongly disagree about their ethics. They are misleading their customers. If their customers knew that their product was actually Moodle, the customers would know that they have alternative options for Moodle hosting and support. By concealing this information and implying that it is something else, they are taking unfair advantage of their customers.
Certainly if they were up front about their business, that they were providing a value added Moodle, I would have no problems with them. But this does not appear to be the case. Their press releases are downright lies.
Certainly if they were up front about their business, that they were providing a value added Moodle, I would have no problems with them. But this does not appear to be the case. Their press releases are downright lies.
I hadn't seen those press releases before just now - they are pretty deceptive. I agree it's not very ethical, but it's not illegal. I'm in conversation with them now via email.
The screenshots reveal the underlying Moodle structure quite clearly, and that code snippet above confirms it.
It looks fairly heavily modified, but they can probably get away with it under GPL. They have to release the source to the client (there's no difference in PHP between source and binaries) and they can't stop the client redistributing this source. Anyone got friends using Comcourse's LMS+?
The login page is obviously Moodle whether the implementation is or not. Also the login url is login/index.php, just like Moodle.
The weekly course layout is immediatly identifiable with it's course summary and weekly content. They've just made it hide past weeks (or focused on one week). Again, both the breadcrumb trail and url (course/view.php?id=X) confirm Moodle's presence. The top-left block is a modified 'Participants' block, 'Course Summary' is the same, so is the 'Search' box which is just an adjusted 'Search Forums' block (as indicated by the button). Then there's the course list block beneath that. On the right hand side is the standard News block.
The activity report (ie Log) also shows a forum post which has the traditional left-side bar and the 'Delete' and 'Parent of this post' (see this post in context) links.
I also found some more hidden screenshots: 1 2. These point to Moodle as well.
So basically all they've done is change a whole lot of language strings, repositioned some stuff, probably polished some features and maybe added more (not shown in screenshots) and whacked a new theme on it.
It looks fairly heavily modified, but they can probably get away with it under GPL. They have to release the source to the client (there's no difference in PHP between source and binaries) and they can't stop the client redistributing this source. Anyone got friends using Comcourse's LMS+?
The login page is obviously Moodle whether the implementation is or not. Also the login url is login/index.php, just like Moodle.
The weekly course layout is immediatly identifiable with it's course summary and weekly content. They've just made it hide past weeks (or focused on one week). Again, both the breadcrumb trail and url (course/view.php?id=X) confirm Moodle's presence. The top-left block is a modified 'Participants' block, 'Course Summary' is the same, so is the 'Search' box which is just an adjusted 'Search Forums' block (as indicated by the button). Then there's the course list block beneath that. On the right hand side is the standard News block.
The activity report (ie Log) also shows a forum post which has the traditional left-side bar and the 'Delete' and 'Parent of this post' (see this post in context) links.
I also found some more hidden screenshots: 1 2. These point to Moodle as well.
So basically all they've done is change a whole lot of language strings, repositioned some stuff, probably polished some features and maybe added more (not shown in screenshots) and whacked a new theme on it.
I would also like to mention that most of their emphasis is on the course content they offer rather than the software. While they do stress that their software is stable and feature-rich, they stress how great their courses are. Looking at the 'About Comcourse, Inc.' page you see that most of the people involved are educators, not developers, and even the developers have emphasis on writing technical books rather than developing software. About the only mention of development is under 'Matt Sheltz Chief Technology Officer' - 'Matt has developed advanced technologies related to the Comcourse Learning Management System, including student tracking and reporting functionality.'
I have emailed a member of their group and they have confirmed Moodle is their code base. However, because they are using it on a single server and not distributing the software they are perfectly valid in their use of Moodle.
I basically asked if they were distributing the source and, if so, asked for a copy under section 2.b of the GPL License.
Here is the message he sent me:
I basically asked if they were distributing the source and, if so, asked for a copy under section 2.b of the GPL License.
Here is the message he sent me:
Hello Samuel,
Thank you for your message. You bring up two interesting issues for us; one legal and one ethical.
From a legal standpoint, it seems straightforward: We do not distribute or publish the work (we provided a hosted service) and so are like any of the many companies that modifies open source for its own purposes and keeps such code private. To cite GPL.org:
A company is running a modified version of a GPLd program on a web site. Does the GPL say they must release their modified sources?
The GPL permits anyone to make a modified version and use it without ever distributing it to others. What this company is doing is a special case of that. Therefore, the company does not have to release the modified sources."We would not have used and modified the code had we not known this, since weve put a lot of our personal money into it and cannot afford to just give that away.
We have primarily been using the LMS only to host our own content. Recently, however, upon request of one of our customers, we began to open the LMS as a service business.
From an ethical standpoint, it is more complicated. In principle, I agree with you that we should acknowledge and support Moodle. Toward this end, over the past year we have made some small financial contributions to Moodle.org, and plan to make more when/if we should actually profit on this venture.
Regarding acknowledgement: At this point our LMS is only about 50-60% Moodle; the rest being code that we developed for our internal use only. (The screen shots on our site are way out of date.) I would not want anyone to think we are just reselling Moodle as-is and so am reluctant to put the Moodle logo there. However, I also feel conflicted about using the code without attribution. So, we will probably do something to address this, Im just not sure what at this moment.
My hope has always been to benefit moodle.org financially, rather than through attribution, since the attribution issue can be confusing in the marketplace. However, I would be interested in hearing your opinion on this matter.
Thank you,
James
I think this clears up whether they are using Moodle, and I am quite satisfied morally. Thoughts?
Hi Claude -
While I concede the (remote) chance that this is not Moodle, and that the code we can see, the file structure we can see, the CSS classes we can see and the general layout of the forums we can see are just coincidently identical to those of Moodle, that does not excuse the quotes "We have spent two years developing a next-generation fully-hosted LMS, testing and proving it" and "Comcourse has developed a next generation Learning Management System (LMS) that has greater functionality and usability at a fraction of the current LMS cost" from their press release. Those statements, while at worst are outright lies and at best are blatently misleading, I think puts them into the slimey category.
mike
While I concede the (remote) chance that this is not Moodle, and that the code we can see, the file structure we can see, the CSS classes we can see and the general layout of the forums we can see are just coincidently identical to those of Moodle, that does not excuse the quotes "We have spent two years developing a next-generation fully-hosted LMS, testing and proving it" and "Comcourse has developed a next generation Learning Management System (LMS) that has greater functionality and usability at a fraction of the current LMS cost" from their press release. Those statements, while at worst are outright lies and at best are blatently misleading, I think puts them into the slimey category.
mike
I agree Mike. They definitely need some more ethical wording on their site, e.g. ...fully-hosted LMS based on the open source Moodle... By the way, I ran across this site a couple of weeks ago and the demo site was in a folder called, surprise, "moodle". I noticed they have since changed this to "demo".
If you enter http://www.comcourse.com/demo/course/view.php?id=3 using guest/guest all doubt is removed about whether it is Moodle (some nice looking customisation has been done).
Some of the additional code in the demo course is even attributed to another site
Shame they don't feel able to attribute the Moodle source.
Some of the additional code in the demo course is even attributed to another site
// Script taken from- perhaps this would lead to problems sharing it. Perhaps they spent 2 years looking for the tutorials....
// http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/tutorials/index.php?tut=0&part=16
// and slightly modified to return height rather then display height&width
Shame they don't feel able to attribute the Moodle source.
While I don't think it's particularly useful to gauge the usability of Open Source vs. Proprietary software in general, rather than on a specific product basis I'll note that Grebow's comments start with talking about the two products he works with (including Moodle) and then continues by addressing all the rest of his comments to Open Source LMSs in aggregate. A subtle, but possibly important difference may have been lost in the editing.
Note that he has on other occasions specifically mentioned the GUI of his Moodle-derived learning system as a positive asset:
At 8/04/2005 11:06 PM, David Grebow said...
Stephen, Ben et al.: I'm working as the CLO for an open source LMS -Moodle based but on steroids - and in the academic marketplace we're taking one customer a week away from eCollege, WebCy, Embanet and BlackBoard.
They cannot compete on price, fucntionality, features, security, no MSFT tax, runs on all platforms (Tiger OS thru Firefox), has a great GUI and oh yes did I mention price - about 70% LESS than the other vendors who provide less for more.
quoted from a Learning Circuits Blog comment
"I'm working as the CLO for an open source LMS -Moodle based but on steroids."
Nothing deceptive here. AND, creating a Moodle-based LMS "on steroids" is exactly what a legitimate commercial enterprise SHOULD do with Moodle. If they can't add value, why would they deserve to have customers.
Next question: Is there any evidence that they are failing to tell their customers that its Moodle?
claude
P.S. In the interest of full disclosure, I have been an academician (Associate Professor), and an administrator at both an environmental and a social-services non-profit. I have sat on the board of many good community organizations and written books about community and meaningful work. So I don't just see the world through a business lens.
It's too easy to have a knee-jerk hatred of business, because of the bad ones out there. But without business, there would be lots less tax money and very little philanthropy.
Business is just a tool, like a hammer. You can pound nails with with a hammer, or you can club your neighbor. Should we hate hammers because some fool clubs his neighbor with one?
Business is a tool meant to simultaneously provide goods and services to our neighbors while generating a living for us. There's a bunch wrong with the way a lot of businesses run and the negative impact they have, but most businesses are benign if not beneficial.
Even if it were true that all corporations are evil (which it is not), over half of all the jobs in this country are created by small, honest businesses, 2/3s of which are run by women. These are just normal folks trying to make a living like you and me. They aren't intrinsically evil because they work in a business.
Even Comcourse, with it's irritating diminished credit to Moodle, might in the end turn out to make Moodle look really good to BlackCT users, from which we can all benefit. It all depends on how diligent Comcourse is in honoring the license.
I don't know how to positively react to what you said, Mr. Claude: I'm merely a student programmer who had seen a Moodle based LMS. As a student, curiosity is a big thing and though it may not be anticipated by teachers, students somehow throw somewhat stupid sounding questions that actually make sense like "Sir, who made the system that we are using?" or "Sir, what is the system made of?". The email posted by Samuel said:
From an ethical standpoint, it is more complicated. In principle, I agree with you that we should acknowledge and support Moodle. Toward this end, over the past year we have made some small financial contributions to Moodle.org, and plan to make more when/if we should actually profit on this venture.
Regarding acknowledgement: At this point our LMS is only about 50-60% Moodle; the rest being code that we developed for our internal use only. (The screen shots on our site are way out of date.) I would not want anyone to think we are just reselling Moodle as-is and so am reluctant to put the Moodle logo there.
Though I am not a contributor or anything (yet) I think it would somehow insult me with the way the said statements were delivered. Would you simply take it that you have to be silenced because someone made a donation to Moodle.org, despite the fact that they created a system based from Moodle yet they conceal the fact from their clients, and a top official is making statements that the GUI sucks? Where is honoring in that?