WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Mary Evans -
Number of replies: 47
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Thank you Fernando for calling this discussion to a close and opening up a start of a real project for the new year.

I agree wholeheartedly with what you have proposed.

I think this post is worthy to be split from the main discussion thread and made into one of it's own that we can build on.

What do you think?

Mary

(Edited by Helen Foster to mention that this thread has been split from the discussion WISH LIST | What do we need to make Moodle better? - original submission Tuesday, 29 December 2015, 3:36 AM)

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In reply to Mary Evans

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Colin Fraser -
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Good idea Mary..... discussion has become a little fragmented - to which I contributed,,,blush

@Frenando, great suggestions: 

Admin has two UIs, one for site management and one for appearance. Site management can be plain and simple, perhaps maintaining the menu hierarchy currently used in Site Administration. Site appearance is a completely separate set of routines, using a template that all themes adopt. All issues of appearance get their values set there. ranging from background/foreground/font colours to large/small logos, to menu background colours to whatever. The Admin sets values there, saved to a set of database tables that all themes refer to when styling all pages. Will this slow down loading of pages? Or require a larger cache?    

In reply to Colin Fraser

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Mary Evans -
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Thank you Colin, as you will see this is now a new discussion and hopefully more focused on what we really need and want.

Cheers

Mary

In reply to Colin Fraser

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Fernando Acedo -
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Colin,

I only can talk about Joomla because I know it from the beggining and suffered all its history.

The decision to have two templates is mainly to avoid problems if the main theme crash. In moodle, if the theme has some bug, it has impact in the whole site and the admin can't access the site. In Joomla, the admin always have access to the backend because the admin templates are a few and are well tested.

And the other is to simplify the admin tasks and focus the design only in settings management. That's my comments about tabs, pagination, colour picker, ... All these components are for admins only. Users never will see this side.

So IMO, a specific admin theme should be mandatory. And we don't need hundred of them. Joomla uses basically two. One by default and other (really ugly) as a backup in case of failure. From here obviously you can create any other.

In reply to Fernando Acedo

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Derek Chirnside -

I'd need to be convinced here to have two templates/thtmes.  Surely some sort of fall back option to "force theme to clean" if you have a disaster could save a lot of time and effort.

It is only effort and time I am considering here.

I have had some first hand experience with theme problems recently.  On installing three different themes wrong I managed to get my site deleted/overwrote base theme, and in the process I also lost all CSS (like a page with every admin setting on it and no styling) - and more.  But it is still easy to sort out.

I may be wrong of course.  A quick simple solution may be possible.

-Derek

In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Fernando Acedo -
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Derek,

using two themes doesn't mean more problems.

The admin theme is only one. Created specifically for it with the needed features and installed in a separated folder (/admin/theme ???) totally isolated of the theme folder.

What we get is a theme with the features that the admin really need (different layout, blocks, tools for settings, ...). So in case of main theme failure, the admin can continue working in the backend.

In WP and Joomla, this theme is only one and included in the installation file. And is really strange to find other admin themes developed externally by other developers.

Would be a Clean theme for admins.

 

In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Richard Oelmann -
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Of course if user themes are enabled, then the site admin can already set their theme to 'clean' or some other theme instead of the default one for the site if they so choose. Perhaps someone should create a theme that focuses solely on the admin user and the admin/maintenance pages

Or a theme could create a different look and feel for admin/maintenance layouts

For me, I agree we need a better admin interface on some pages, I'm not entirely convinced that needs a separate admin theme though, I think there are core functionality changes needed first. As a site admin I would want the same look and feel on the admin pages as everyone else has across the entire site - but that is personal opinion. I know its not 'how Joomla does it' but Moodle isn't Joomla and we don't have to follow what other web scripts do if its not useful to most Moodle users. If it is, and its a popular move among admins, that's fine, but I would certainly make it optional and not mandatory.

In reply to Richard Oelmann

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Fernando Acedo -
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Richard,

sorry but I can''t agree with you.

The samples I used were Joomla and WP because are the most common but this is a normal practice in other kind of scripts like CRM and ERP's. I know moodle is not a CMS or an ERP but the concept is the same.

The reasons are easy to understand. Isolate the administration from the site and adapt the template to the admin needs.

How many times did you install a theme that broken totally the site and you need to change the theme setting in the database?

I never did it in Joomla. Just go to the admin site and change the theme again.

In reply to Fernando Acedo

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Richard Oelmann -
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Not agreeing with me is fine Fernando, I didn't expect you to - but as I stated, its my personal opinion and I do not expect everyone to share my opinions, nor do I believe them to be the best for every single situation. Just that it is my opinion and suits me in my situation - I'm not going to claim to speak for others. As I also stated, if that is the direction most users/admins want to go then I will back it 100% and work for its adoption in the community (as I have done with other changes in Moodle that are not my own personal preference). I do believe that those alternative opinions should be aired in the discussion though, to give everyone opportunity to air their views as part of the community decision making process.

To be honest Fernando,I dont think I have ever broken the site that badly - but then I don't do anything without having the change theme by url setting enabled and have never yet mangled a site so badly that changing to clean (previously standard) didn't allow me in. On the occasions where my own development code has messed something up, I simply delete the relevant theme folder and go back to a latest working copy. But that is as a developer - I would not expect any published theme to break a site so badly - and would also advise anyone messing about with themes to have the change by url setting enabled and to test the new theme in a 'safe' environment set up for testing (change by url, debugging, etc) before putting it on a live site.

Maybe the 'change theme by url' should be something that a logged in admin can always do, regardless of the setting.

For me, I think the argument is not one of 'if your site is so badly broken' - there should be other ways to fix that and to me that is an argument for developers not admins - the argument for an admin theme is for a better layout of the tools and features that an admin needs and to me, much of that revolves around core features like the settings pages as tabs/accordian/whatever, better file/colour pickers.

Admins can already choose an alternative theme for themselves - as I said earlier, perhaps someone needs to create one. Possibly then an alternative 'switch' that allows the admin to select that as their theme without enabling user themes for everyone. But I don't believe it should be mandatory (default maybe, but not mandatory) I believe I would prefer to have the same look and feel as the rest of the site. But as already stated, this is a personal opinion. I like having the admin features integrated into the site and not having to go to a separate mysite/admin and seeing a totally different interface for administration, editing or anything else as happens in WP, Django and others. Again, this is a personal feeling - That's one of the things that slows down my workflow when using those sites. I personally do not like having to go to a different interface to get things done. And some of them are just plain awful to use!

In reply to Richard Oelmann

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Fernando Acedo -
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Rciahrd, I still don't see any pro about to share the theme for admins and users and I see many cons. But doesn't matter, what we need is better themes for both: admins and students. So let me rewrite the wish.

Until version 2.9 we had the unused theme selection for mobiles and tablets. Fortunately in version 3 these options were removed (aleluya!!!). So, could we add a theme selection for the backend and other totally different for the frontend?

Then we can have a different theme adapted to the admin needs: better access to the settings, different layout, different blocks (I have many requests of this feature), etc. Probably Clean with some changes could be enough.

And it can have a setting to switch to the default theme. I remember a block that allows change the theme used.

Then we could simplify the development and get an admin theme.

What do you think?

In reply to Fernando Acedo

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Richard Oelmann -
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Theme selection for mobile and tablets is still there on development site :/ Perhaps you have disabled device detection?

Some queries about how to implement an admin theme...

1. What exactly is 'backend' v 'front-end' - 'admin' v 'user' (admin potentially being Site Admin or Manager - or even a user with extended specific capabilities in some areas, user being tutor or student) in the context of how roles and capabilities are used within Moodle, or used as customised roles by institutions.

2. There are 'admin' settings present on pages that teachers may access as having editing rights. Do they all need to be separated out? or do you envisage the 'backend' theme incorporating all the editing screens as well, as it does in some/many/most other web scripts? Are you advocating that anything other than non-editing display (e.g. the 'student' view) becomes the 'backend' with this alternative theme?

3. How would the backend theme be applied - given that roles can be overridden and a student on one course may be a tutor on another and may have a particular capability that matches a site admin/manager role in another? OR would it be applied to specific pages (such as pages with admin or maintenance layout) regardless of who access them.

Bearing in mind that admin and maintenance layouts can already be targeted separately in a theme or that with the user themes setting enabled a site admin can already select a different theme, then perhaps the first step here is to actually create an 'admin theme' and then see how best to apply it or get it integrated to core?

Other functionality such as a common use of tabs/accordian/etc would need to be built into core - themes can already address it in their own settings (you've said you are working on tabs for BCU settings, I have implemented buttons for flexibase) but unless its part of core there is no commonality (see tabs/buttons - bcu/flexibase smile ). With that in mind, what functions, other than themes, tend to have multiple settings pages that would require organisation through tabs (or buttons, or...)? Again, as a purely personal point of view, I prefer them in separate pages because I use the AwesomeBar and they appear in the drop down instead of a single page that I then have to use tabs for - but if tabs was the commonly adopted approach (separate pages have been upto this point) then that would be fine too.

Using the theme selector would certainly be another option for setting a different theme for certain purposes - all it would need would be someone to design the 'switch' to go with the device detection code to apply the relevant theme where it was required. That might depend though on your thoughts about the above points and whether an 'admin theme' is page specific or user specific.

For me, as I explained earlier, one of the crucial factors is that this 'admin theme' should not be mandatory as one earlier post suggested, but should be an option - hence I would prefer to stick to theme switching if and when I need it, (personal opinion) - I develop, act as site admin, provide multiple levels of support and teach. In all of those capacities I have a single look and feel, the editing and admin pages are integrated into my workflow and are not a separate entity. As well as Moodle, I use WP and Django in work, WP, Joomla and Drupal outside work. Of those, the separation of admin from front end is, as you say common, but ranges from ok to downright horrible to work with and that is with scripts that have been designed that way. For Moodle to switch to that from a system of integration would take a lot of thought and work to do it properly and not be left with another half-implemented solution that we seem to have so many of right now.

In reply to Richard Oelmann

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Mary Evans -
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I think we should get out of the mind set created by the  word "theme", especially when referring to the proposals to change the way Admins will be able to do their job more easily and effectively. In this context the word 'theme' is unimportant, although the layout of the Administration Control Center will be key to how styles are applied In a 'theme' or outside of a 'theme'.

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In reply to Mary Evans

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Richard Oelmann -
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So would your suggestion, Mary, be something along the lines of the existing profile page (in look I mean - gives some consistency of interface?) - an 'Admin Dashboard'?

Would this then have a panel for each group of admin settings?

Those panels would then take the existing admin settings pages (or a newly designed version of them) to be links in the panels - similar to the profile page.

Each mod/block/theme/etc would add to that in the same way they currently add to the site admin menu?

I wonder if that could be built as a local plugin the way things are already - the code must exist in the Site Admin menu already (and is extracted by awesomebar already), so it would mean taking that block and recreating it as a page, restyling the top level as panel headings (ok we have to work with BS2, so it wouldn't be bootstrap panels, but that look as in the profile page), the next level being links to settings pages themselves within the panels, with sub-levels going from those? If the 'panels' are there and the links, they could be styled as bootstrap panels, or accordian elements by whatever theme is in use, perhaps?

And as a local plugin (or admin plugin?) it would sit separate from the theme itself.

In reply to Richard Oelmann

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Mary Evans -
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No...nothing like that. You need to think outside the box Richard!

Think the world is your Oyster. look about and see what you don't like as well as what you do.

For example. compare Apple v Android and the way these systems work.

Of course we cannot dictate to our Moodle Admins what they will get, as we will also have to consider organisational culture. 

At the end of the day what happens in this particular issue will be determined by what is feasible as well as achievable.

In reply to Mary Evans

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Richard Oelmann -
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OK - then I will be very interested to see what the proposals that do come out look like smile

Particularly in terms of what is judged to be feasible and achievable - bootstrap3 was judged not to be achievable, neither is a direct port to Jquery, although new code is.

In reply to Richard Oelmann

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Mary Evans -
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In reply to Mary Evans

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Richard Oelmann -
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Downcast and negative Mary???

Disagreement and constructive comment, based on personal opinions backed by personal experiences, that has already moved towards a workable outcome with Fernando's suggestion of using the theme selector rather than one of my main concerns of his previous suggestion of a mandatory admin theme  - and admin theme is how people besides me seem to have read the idea, including Fernando, while I am not the only one to have expressed reservations about it. Those reservations are not obstacles - they are queries, discussions, personal opinions - the 'mandatory' one has already been worked through, others would follow I'm sure, but if those queries are not asked we will not get solutions to them.

On the other hand, as far as I can see in the discussion, I have made several 'feasible and achievable' (your words) suggestions to actually progress some of the ideas within what is already possible in Moodle, while you responded to one of those suggestions with 'No nothing like that, think outside the box' but no practical way forward, yet I am the one being negative???

I have asked for comments/feedback on some of my queries about how the admin backend would be implemented. I don't see how we can progress anything without some of those discussions taking place.

This discussion has been moved from the 'blue sky thinking' into the realm of finding achievable solutions by bringing it into the tracker. I have put forward several IMO achievable steps forward - no they may not be where we want to get to as a finished result once all such debates and discussions are had, but they are steps forward. Can you point to any other practical steps outlined in this discussion to achieve any of the original ideas? Yet, having put forward several suggestions that could probably be implemented either through themes themselves (this is after all a discussion in the themes forum and is titled 'What do you want in a Moodle Theme') or at least through plugins that could be created within a reasonable time frame, I am the one accused of being negative???

You asked us to move away from the concept of 'themes' (again, despite this discussion's title and location) and I put forward an idea, your reaction was simply 'No, nothing like that. Think outside the box' Yet I am accused of being negative???

Really???

In reply to Richard Oelmann

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Mary Evans -
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Perhaps its the way you express yourself, or perhaps I am misreading what you are really saying.

There is nothing wrong with putting things in the Tracker, I see it as just a way of alerting the guys that fix Moodle that change is wanted NOW!

In reply to Mary Evans

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Richard Oelmann -
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Well, I can't see anything in my comments that suggests negativity to warrant a personal response of that nature Mary. As I have said, I have given my own opinions, based on personal experiences and have made suggestions for ways forward that would enable some of the changes to happen 'NOW'. I cannot see any reason to label that as being negative, simply because those views differ from yours or Fernando's.

But as I also said, I look forward greatly to your, and others practical suggestions and how they will be achieved - and if you took that as a sarcastic comment to infer a negative reaction then yes you are misreading me, It was meant genuinely. I am keen to see these 'out of the box' solutions you are asking for and to learn how they will be achieved. But I am also trying to put forward workable, practical steps forward that can be achievable 'NOW'. And if that is being negative, compared to responses such as yours, then we will have to differ on it I'm afraid.

In reply to Richard Oelmann

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Fernando Acedo -
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Richard,

as far I know, when you install moodle you get a mandatory theme called Clean. Then you are free to keep the theme, select More or add another external theme.

I was talking about the same in the admin side. A default theme, ready for admins. With all the features needed to manage the site.

I exposed the arguments for it and I think that are realistic: Security, usability, simplicity, light load, 

But the argument of: "I don't like an admin theme because I don't like it" looks very weak.

I just compared the concept with other scripts but I never said that should be exactly the same. I think that we can discuss it and finally get a theme that can manage a powerful frontend like we are having now.

One of the most demanded requests we receive is to have a real dashboard for admins: More information about courses progress, new enrolments, users management, logs, ... With graphics, of course.

The only I was proposing is the options to have it. Technical options, not opinions without solid arguments.

 

 

 

In reply to Fernando Acedo

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Richard Oelmann -
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"I don't like an admin theme because I don't like it" Is an unrealistic, overly simplistic view of what I have written.

BUT as I am apparently being negative and no-one is prepared to answer any of the queries i have raised, or provide any concrete steps forward for comment, then I will leave the discussion to those who obviously feel that the 'pie in the sky' non-specific ideas are the way forward.

Thank you everyone for the personal comments about my attitude. They are hurtful and personal and would have been moderated off this discussion (by me at least) if I were not personally involved in the thread. I thought this community was better than that sad

Feel free to carry on the discussion in your own ways, my views obviously do not fit in.

In reply to Richard Oelmann

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Gareth J Barnard -
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Hi Richard,

Ignore the comments.  You views are yours.  And everybody has a right to their point of view.

Ok, my view:

  • Backend - what more technical people see, like admins.  More control and power but with system responsibility / making it happen for the people who are customer facing.  Like backstage.
  • Frontend - what less technical people see, like educators and managers.  Tailored towards what the customer sees / making the purpose of the system work for the customer.  Like frontstage.

Its all about the skills required and needed for in the given perspective in order to be able to undertake their role.  This is not about one skill set is better than another but tailoring the 'view' / 'interface' for the role of the person using it.

HNY,

Gareth

In reply to Richard Oelmann

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Mary Evans -
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Richard,

You know full well this forum is a great community! and you also know that I have defended you on the occasions when you have been really attaked verbally in this very forum, on more than one occasion.

To tell you the truth Richard, my earlier question was never intended as a insult, direct or otherwise, so I do not think it warrents an apology, but if it makes you feel better...then I stand corrected and take back what I said about being negative...and regret I ever said it or thought it.

Please accept this as a public apology.

Sincerely...

Mary

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In reply to Mary Evans

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Richard Oelmann -
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Accepted Mary - and that my feelings about the matter were never your intention

And yes I am fully aware of your support and have valued it greatly as you have mentored me through this community in many ways since teh earliest days of me joining it.

In reply to Mary Evans

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Fernando Acedo -
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That's perfect Mary. Thanks. Now that we discussed the topic we need to be more specific with our wishes and try to make them a reality (Dreaming is free big grin)

Would be good to create the list (no another list) and then see who and how could be done each task.

The creation of a UI/UX work group would be a good start. That should be promoted by moodle HQ but not sure what kind of support they want to give to this kind of proposals because this should be created long time ago and moodle is probably the only script without work groups.

I can understand what Richard say about priorities. But sincerely, if the building has a wrong  structure and ugly design, will be difficult to sell the flats wink

 

PS: Who is still using emoticons from the past century???

In reply to Fernando Acedo

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Richard Oelmann -
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If we want to create a single wish list, then perhaps it would be best to set up a doc page to create that - the discussions could still take place in the forum, but the doc page would be the 'goto' source for the list. That could eventually become a meta-issue on the tracker with the list items referenced.
In reply to Fernando Acedo

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Richard Oelmann -
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Surely someone at HQ could update those emoticons very easily - they are after all just gif images in the moodle/pix folder. They should be able to be overridden by any theme in the same way as other core images, but Fernando is right, they should be updated in core!

In reply to Richard Oelmann

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Fernando Acedo -
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Richard.

just take a look here: https://github.com/3-bits/moodle-emojis

The core emoticons are totally outdated. As far I remember they are used from first versions more 10 years ago. Now we have the unicode standard that can be used in the editor itself or just replacing the existing like I did.

There are an attempt of a plugin made by David Mudrák in https://github.com/mudrd8mz/moodle-local_aliens

See also: https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-46779

Yes, this is in the tracker!!!!!!  But.....all we know that big fat is very very slow. And not so much interested in solve the question. And it is very simple: You don't need to add a font, just replace the images.

So, one of my wishes made reality Yes

 

PS: The Martin and the egg (???) icons are not in the set

Average of ratings: Useful (1)
In reply to Fernando Acedo

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Derek Chirnside -
EMOJI's

https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-46779

There are only two votes for this on over 16 months.

-Derek

In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Fernando Acedo -
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Derek,

do you think we need to vote for something so obvious?

I can understand that some requests need some support to be developed and applied to the core. But obvious requests should be done without voting.

We are using 15 years old emoticons. 15 years!!! Is it not enough to replace them for the new standard? Do we need to vote and wait several years more?? (More than 1 for the moment)

It tooks me more time write the readme.txt to help others to replace the images than select the images to fit the existing. So it is an easy task. Just need to spend a few minutes. And this issue trscker is a sample of how "big fat" (this is my lovely way to call moodle)

BTW, the number of emoticons is not enough actually, we could add much more but I had problems and just added the default.

 

In reply to Fernando Acedo

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Derek Chirnside -

Ahh, maybe you are right Fernando.  But Moodle is run by people.  smile

What is blindingly obvious sometimes doesn't happen.

But well done getting this plugin sorted.

-Derek



In reply to Fernando Acedo

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Rick Jerz -
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Canvas and Desire2Learn, from my own experience, do not offer emoticons in their editors.  Blackboard has a limited set.  So from a competitor perspective, moodle is ahead of its competition which is might suggest to some developers to invest their energy somewhere else, meaning not in providing newer or more emoticons.  So why aren't emoticons obvious to Canvas and D2L, these are commercial products?

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In reply to Fernando Acedo

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Mary Evans -
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I have set this up in Moodle Tracker MDL-52622 as EPIC

In reply to Mary Evans

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Fernando Acedo -
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Thanks Mary.

Hope this issue do not get lost in space like many other.

Anyway, we need to add any other functionality needed and start working on it.

In reply to Fernando Acedo

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Richard Oelmann -
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Assuming you have checked the licencing on the images you have used, why not submit them as a solution for that tracker.

It's much more likely to move forward if someone has already put a solution in there than if its just sat waiting for someone in HQ to pick it up.

In reply to Richard Oelmann

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Fernando Acedo -
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The Github link I added in a past message is only a test to see if we can replace the emoticons images. I just added it to Github for testing by other developers in his projects. The icons used are part of this repo: https://github.com/github/gemoji widely used in many other projects.

The truth is that the icons used have copyright. Apple, the owner, do not provide an open license. Even you can request a use license you must keep the copyright..

But as I said, this is only a test. I made it after read https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-46779 and see that Moodle HQ is not interested to close this issue.

After see the pros and cons of the change, I decided to do it in another way and the icons finally used will be other, not the Apple set.

Anyway, you can replace the icons easily for the Twitter, Google and some other sets that are released under other free licenses.

We mainly develop the projects after client request. Then, they can be published as open source, others are commercial and some will never been published. A few are only tests or simply 'divertimentos'.

If the projects are published in Github then you are free to use it in your projects, like Moodle HQ can do. I do not work for Moodle HQ so I don't have any obligation to offer a project to them. But they are free, like any other, to add it to the core or reuse it in any way.

For me is more important the community and I feel the obligation to offer the project to the developers community so they can use it in his projects.

After finish this project (we'll see the final result), then I will decide the way to publish it but for the moment is not expected to do it in the MPD. Only in Github.

 

In reply to Fernando Acedo

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Gareth J Barnard -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers

In reality is this thread really about the Moodle 'user experience' / 'user interface' rather than themes?

Should the interface be more minimal?

Could it be that for this reason that Canvas is gaining traction?  Although having tried it (a while ago) it was fine as long as you followed the 'Canvas way / workflow', which might not suit all.

In reply to Gareth J Barnard

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Rick Jerz -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers

Interesting comment about Canvas, Gareth.  I am not a Canvas administrator, but one of my schools is experimenting with Canvas.  As far as I can see as a teacher, I have no control over how Canvas looks.  Maybe the Canvas administrator has disabled this feature.  But my school does not to appear to have customized Canvas in anyway.  Maybe this is coming.

Well, we are probably into this situation again where a competing LMS has little to offer relative to customization, and people accept it.  Moodle provides all kinds of ways to be customized, and people then complain that it can't do this or that.

It seems to me that some folks want Moodle to be their "main website" which is causing them to want all kinds of theme features added.  I don't.  I am satisfied making my website with web editing tools designed for this purpose, like Dreamweaver, and then linking to Moodle. But this is just my method for my small moodle site.

In reply to Rick Jerz

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Gareth J Barnard -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers

Hi Rick,

The last time I looked, Canvas did not have 'themes'.  Learning these days needs to be personalised and targeted.  To achieve that the software needs to be flexible in both form and function.

To me, this thread is debating that very nature in Moodle and how it could be improved.

Cheers,

Gareth

In reply to Gareth J Barnard

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Rick Jerz -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers

Hi Gareth,

Yes, I agree.  What I was trying to point out is that some schools are moving to Canvas even though Canvas lacks many of the features that have been built into Moodle, some features such as being able to pick a different theme or modifying the current one.  Sometimes people don't appreciate th power behind moodle, and all of the work that folks like you and Mary have put into producing a lot of theme flexibility.

Yet, even though Moodle is way ahead of the competitors, folks like you and Mary are still seeking ways to make it better.  I really appreciate the Moodle community's work.  Thanks!

In reply to Gareth J Barnard

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Derek Chirnside -

Rick and Gareth:  Canvas and customisation.  Some random posts.

In my opinion, the best way to keep up with Canvas LMS happenings is to talk to their users, or watch the users forums.  It is very easy to adopt a "Moodle does this, look how lousy Canvas is attitude", and this will not come out on top in a playoff.  The best product does not always 'win' since we have a range of attitudes and values and preferences which kick into play.  I remain absolutely astounded at the totally pervasive sense among Canvas users (at least all I have talked to or read) that they preceive Canvas/instructure as being listening, wanting to help, aware of their needs, responsive, thoughtful and dare I say it fun.  I will not insert my opinion here.

Their community is now based here: https://community.canvaslms.com/community/ideas

Here is the way they are managing change and development:


-Derek

In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Gareth J Barnard -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers

Hi Derek,

You misunderstand my words.

Kind regards,

Gareth

In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Rick Jerz -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers

Okay, the admin can change colors it appears, and other minor modifications.  Hmmm, BB allows instructors to change the color of buttons.  These are still relatively minor modifications from what I can see.  But I do understand that some folks really like Canvas.

I was (and still am) part of a Canvas experiment at one of my (major) universities.  I had to abort using Canvas in a course last summer due to the forum feature in Canvas being extremely weak.  But for those who don't use forums, a weak forum feature would not be a problem. (As a side not, I showed the key Canvas support person my Moodle and she said "I have never see Moodle look so good."

There is this organization called Unizin (Unizin.org) that is trying to improve education by "sharing" open education resources.  Unizin is trying to get many universities to join.  Unizin picked "Canvas" as their LMS.  Seems like an interesting idea, but picking a somewhat closed-source LMS does not appear to be open to me.  I still see Unizin as a clever way of marketing Canvas, but it appears to be working.  Time will tell.  Some of my questions that I had in my Canvas experiment had posts dating back four years or so, and these were for some simple issues, such as showing the student grade book with graded items within their proper categories.

I am aware that the best product does not always win.  Sometimes (like with BB) the best marketing wins.

My main point remains: Moodle has much more flexibility with themes than the other major LMSs. I really do appreciate the "open sharing" environment of moodle developers.  

In reply to Rick Jerz

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Derek Chirnside -

@Gareth.  wide eyes  I do that sometimes.  

@Rick.  Re Unizin.  Interesting.  I think all the really good catchy six letter web addresses for branding are getting used up.  Unizin looks like a conglomeration of a few big name universities, some if which I really respect.  http://unizin.org/members/

Below are some quotes from the site.  I admire anyone who can write like this and keep a straight face.  Even more so if they can get paid to do it.

Unizin members benefit from interdependence as they work to shape the future of higher education. Whether it’s sharing open textbooks between university members or providing cross-institutional course credit in Swahili, Unizin gives universities and their faculties a renewed, action-oriented, collective voice in this vital conversation.

Unizin is a consortium of like-minded institutions facilitating the transition toward collaborative digital education. Our mission is to improve the learning experience by providing an environment built on collaboration, data, standards, and scale.

Unizin’s ecosystem consists of a set of dynamically evolving software that supports digital teaching and learning.

Promotes a holistic concept of "course," which unifies digital content necessary for effective teaching and learning and provides course materials to your whole class in one location.

 . . . .    there is a lot more.  smile

And Rick.  Your two points.  Agreed.  +1 to both.

-Derek

Average of ratings: Useful (1)
In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Rick Jerz -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers

Now you are seeing my message.  The Big 10 school that I teach part-time at has joined Unizin.  They actually are believing this stuff, and they are very close to adopting Canvas over their current D2L product.  Maybe so.  I have used D2L and Canvas and maybe they are close competitors, with some advantages and disadvantages.  So between these two products maybe it doesn't matter.

The first sign of my school's involvement in Unizin is this Canvas adoption.  If Unizin really wants to be "open," why are they picking a "closed" LMS like Canvas.  Maybe I am way off base... maybe Canvas can be modified by users just like Moodle... but I don't think so.  In fact, my university plans to run Canvas on an Instructure Cloud, probably making it even harder to modify (you know this approach, the university does not need to maintain its own servers.)

My university thinks that the University of Minnesota, who hosted Moodlemoot last year and has 80,000 students using Moodle, might switch to Canvas.  This will be an interesting one to watch.

Time will tell.

In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Marcus Green -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Derek, do you think I could get paid for this...?

For me this represents a genuine paradigm shift in both distance and face to face student centered learning. The use of MOOC technology will push the envelope going forward. We are used to the concept of the 360 degree flipped classroom but this implements a 370 degree value proposition.

The implementation of learning analytics will incentify lecturers to use best practice while leveraging the key benefits of learning styles and socio constructionist collaboration. It will increase engagement with a group based impactfull assessment system.  By scaffolding a trans-disciplinary approach the outcome will be an across the board upside for all stakeholders.
 

In reply to Fernando Acedo

Re: WISH LIST | What do you want in a Moodle Theme?

by Mary Evans -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers

Hi Fernando,

The best way to contain all that we need to focus on is creat an EPIC set of issues in Moodle Tracker. With each one of your starter list as a seperate issue within that EPIC issue. This way we can see the progress, or at least have a target to work towards.

We might even find opportunities to fix some small Moodle Bugs that we find on the way to getting are Wish List built.

I can do this if you think it useful.

Cheers

Mary